Nen would suffer if Devil Fruits, seastone, etc existed in HxH. It can afford to be so detailed and limitless because it doesn't have other powers that are separate to it. Nen fits well for the purpose of HxH, just like Haki does for OP. Haki has to be like that because DF already plays the role needed. Nen covers Haki and DF all in one.
Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes
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@Cockycent it's just a creative choice. Or uncreative one if you wanna be mean. Oda could have added more specifics with Haki and devil fruits alike. He just chose not to. But since he has no actual limitations set, he can play around with his fights more, for better or worse (we had examples of both is what I mean).
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@Razh The details that are already provided have the audience confused. Imagine adding more.
If Law is fighting and someone can't comprehend why he doesn't teleport BM, why add more applications to Haki to that will bring up more questions?
DF and Haki are Nen cut in half and each are left to mix with each other for the creativity in question.
With the way Nen has been explained, it comes off limitless. Nen that puts your life force on the line and Nen after death. Beast that can attack w/o your permission, yet drain you. It's so chaotic, but I like it for what the story demands.
At least I know that the CoO user was caught off guard because they weren't focus enough. Togashi has to write 8 paragraphs to explain that.
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@Cockycent the audience is confused because Oda refuses to get technical about Haki, it's levels and interactions, as well as how it affect deployment of and resistance against various devil fruit abilities. It's mostly broad strokes with some bits of info when necessary.
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@Razh Haki can block and negate. It can penetrate. It can help you intimidate and avoid depending on the user. Plus, we're learning more. What has he not broken down that you needed at a specific moment?
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if your audience gets confused on your limitations and ceiling of what your powers can or cannot do 10 to 15 years into introducing it, in a setting where battles are prominent, then that's really on you.
@Cockycent You see what I meant yourself when you said that Haki can block, negate and penetrate. All 3 works like a physical buff. Being physically strong enables you to block,negate and penetrate too. Haki is a power system that is by extension just having the characters equip a set of armor/enhancing buffs. Higher levels of Haki is essentially Luffy being able to punch things he couldn't punch before.
Observation is an exception but outside of Katakuri's fight and Sanji's feat, we never really had a great showing of it in comparison to the many fights with haki that is basically punch harder. Compare that to HXH nen's where each Nen branch had their own spotlight.
I have nothing against the system but further upgrades to Haki that are likely going to come are going to be what has been: Luffy will learn how to punch harder, guard better, and react faster.
There is the good, the bad and the boring. The good allows Oda to walk around the hard limits of Logia fruits and progress the story, it is also a cool dragon Ball Z system that works for shounen (see Toei's deliberations on it, they sure as hell see it that way).
The bad is essentially the series throwing away some creativity and is now justified to be a slug fest. I love Gear 4 and Snakeman, but the former wasn't necessarily a counter to Doffy or as fitting (as compared to Blood vs Sand, Using Moria's shadows against him, Rubber vs Electricity), it was punch harder! and now I can block his string attacks! (once again, what I meant about Haki).
The boring is well, Law vs Blackbeard. If there is any powers that requires a work about or creative solution, then there is no need for one if the writer can justify "this guy has a lot of haki at this moment", reducing the need to creatively counter a power.
"Nen with a Devil Fruit" is similar to Chrollo's utilization of his powers against Hisoka, that is the closest we can get. I do agree with you on how Haki works well with One Piece because One Piece is not a predominant battle series and doesn't necessarily suffer from that. But I don't necessarily think that Haki is bad, but we can't say for sure it made the series better. With Nen, anyone can be a threat if they are sharp and smart enough.
Chimera Ant was characters way out of their league that uses their ability (devil fruit) properly against characters with seemingly infinite stamina/strength (Haki).
The Ants had Nen abilities too but the human side won not by having more Nen energy to draw from but because they had to wreck their brains to.With Haki, there will always be a ceiling of needing Haki to be a player in the big leagues. It's always "you cannot win or even bother fighting without a certain Haki threshold". And that's fine but can be a little dull. Our only saving grace from it becoming full blown DBZ is that Oda is self aware of that, hence his introduction of G5 and how he said he knew people was upset.
To answer the question of whether Nen will suffer with Devil fruits/Seastone, I think the question should be rephrased such as whether Nen will suffer if Togashi introduced Logia users in the series. My answer, based on my own bubble of knowledge on him and how he writes, is that No, it won't. He'll likely write it in a way that Nen will be required to hit Logia and the Logia users will now be forced to adapt and use their powers creatively to circumvent the situation.
Full disclosure though, i don't think nen is a perfect power system and has its own bullshit. Kuraprika's Nen abilities for one is something that doesn't sit well with me but that's for another day. -
@zeltrax225 Well, I get Haki. If it was every single audience member saying it doesn't make sense, then there would be a point.
Some struggle with Nen and it's been around longer than Haki with breaks for the audience to digest, analyze and comprehend to whatever level needed.
Observation is simple awareness. When a Haki user like Luffy dodges Hordy's water projectiles, that is more than enough.
As said before, it's a simplified power because DFs exist and exactly why Nen, as it is in HxH, would be excessive to partner with DF.
The intimidation part goes beyond punching, guarding and reacting. The characters that make it harder by shooting bullets and toxic gas can't even be in the vicinity to interfere when their ally could use the help. It's been put to the test anyway. Anyone competent enough and is not a fodder would be too busy anyway.
1 Snakeman provides more mobility than Bounce Man.
2 At that time, I don't think Snakeman had the experience of fighting Dogtooth or Cracker to pack what was needed.
3 Snakeman makes way more sense in the narrative to bring in with an Observation boost.2 reasons. Bounce Man is excessive and shows a lack of control that one would experience when first making G4. Secondly, it's not just Haki progression, but DF progression at play which is part of my whole point.
Haki is not made as varied because it is meant to be coupled with an exterior power in DF. Nen covers both DF and Haki, so a partner would defeat the purpose of exploring Nen beast, a master of all types, etc.
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@Cockycent Observation is mostly Snakeman tho. It was conjured up to counter the high Observation that Katakuri had. And it's not just awareness but future sight as well. You mentioned Nen would be excessive to partner with DF but I brought up Chrollo's fight with Hisoka, which is a semblance of how ability + nen powers would work. It's not the exact same but in that fight you can see him juggling different abilities + nen. Devil fruit, if in HxH world, will just be another ability to be juggled. Same as what I brought up with Logia, if there are Logia characters in HXH, Togashi would likely just treat it as another ability that requires Nen to counter.
DF Progression...is a thing. But it's really hard to make a reasonable point. Sugar's ability was broken from the start, there's little to no progression. Momosuke progressed in what, a couple of hours? to be able to float an entire island that was initially framed as needing a vast amount of experience + power to do so (Kaido). Saying DF progresses and requires training like Nen does is backfiring on the argument. Luffy might make it seem like "damn, he trained his DF to extreme levels"....except not really. He trained his physical prowess to extreme levels so that an otherwise "lousy" fruit would be effective in combat. He can still stretch his arm that long or coil himself, but with no muscles...it'll be useless.
There's no "devil fruit energy level" bar or any indicator when it comes to DF users, eg: Law keeps spamming Room, you have no idea what Kid's magnetism is limited to, Tama can seemingly make unlimited amount of dango (if you argue it's limited, I'll argue that it is insane that a kid like her can even make that much in the first place), Shinobu and Bonney's powers is pretty insane and have little to no drawback, there's no training or " a need to develop the devil fruit " there either. So no, Devil fruit progression/power system or whatever is just not well thought out and "it just works" can basically be implied here.
For Nen, it's pretty much different. You have conditional nen so that broken abilities are restricted or require sacrifice. You have abilities that requires real training to be able to bring out its creative potential (Killua) and you have abilities that requires a good physical fit to pull off (Morel). There's thought to it. DF has thought to it, just not on that level.If what you arguing is that "the user sees new ways to use his DF based on his fighting experience and growth" then yeah, I agree to only a certain extent. But if your stance is "the DF gets better and has more options the more the user uses it" then my take is that's just not true.
Devil fruits being used as plot devices (Toki) is also a demerit to it being well thought out (in terms of progression, scaling, believability) because no way in hell did she show any progression that justifies time-space bending powers. -
@zeltrax225 That leads me to the question i've asked before. What can DF do that Nen hasn't already implied it can cover? This is why I see Nen as already covering DF.
You need a door door or Mirror World, Nen can do that. The consequences of DF are even represented in Nen through various ways.
We, as the audience, wouldn't watch Sugar progress because she is a side character. We have watch Luffy and Robin progress. Then mix those things with Haki and other things.
Elasticity and what exactly he can stretch would be the progression. Bones, muscles, etc.
There is a fatigue bar. Which DF doesn't come with some bar, consequence, or restriction. Law had to place a fixed and more powerful room on characters because making a giant one over the country or island was not enough. Doffy stretched him to that point. What does the room do against Kaido who is just too powerful to shamble or manipulate as he will?
Tama said how long the dango last and she was shown to be worn out at times. If the subject has to consume the dango, that's a limitation in itself. Plus, the applications go to beast DNA, hence why it wouldn't work on Kaido, yet the SAD in SMILE allowed this to work.
That is another example of fitting the ability to the narrative. Would Tama be useful with DF users all over Tottoland? No, it's just not applicable.
Observation complements Snakeman, yes. I don't see it as a newer technique he came up with. I don't see that to be confirmed at least. It's a form that is useful to what he was going through.
Future Sight is awareness. Anything with visualizing things, hearing, feeling out aura, personalities, etc is covered by awareness which is the purpose of observation. If Oda wanted cosmic awareness like in comics, that fits it too. Or even being able to feel what took place an hour back by looking at the vicinity. I would also add touching a PG and feeling the sentiment left by the one who placed those characters.
As I initially went through, I don't see any ability that Chrolla and Hisoka used that can't be covered by DF. It's exactly why a "partner" to Nen would be near pointless.
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@Cockycent said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@Razh Haki can block and negate. It can penetrate. It can help you intimidate and avoid depending on the user. Plus, we're learning more. What has he not broken down that you needed at a specific moment?
See, when you write it like that it looks as if you only heard about it from someone who reads OP. But that's the gist of it, even if lacking detail.
For example, we have Armament Haki. Pretty basic stuff, really. You generate a force field around your skin to use in combat, offensively or defensively. But that's not quite the whole story, now is it. Adding a force field around your fist doesn't necessarily make your punch much harder. So does that force field blast outwards at the moment of impact, adding force to the punch? Otherwise, where does added force come from?
Of course, that's exactly what Ryou does, but it's just a higher level of already existing ability. It seems it just makes that blast bigger and stronger, so it's capable of bypassing enemy's Haki force field. Unless someone can actually coat internal organs with Haki or just make a countering Haki force field blast with the equal force opposing enemy's attacking Haki force field blast to completely negate it.
We've actually seen Haki blast defense, though, with Sentoumaru, at least.
It's just not explained very well, nor does Oda apply all these techniques with his fighters all the time. It's just there when it needs to be. Seems redundant to add the entire spirit force system just for it to come down to who punches harder.And I even skipped Hardening. Since the skin darkens, I can only assume the Haki force field is applied on a cellular level, condensing cells so hard that the skin becomes dark. Or is it the force field that darkens. But then swords changing colors permanently doesn't make sense, does it?
So when you apply Hardening your body is extra hard when colliding with outside object while still being coated by the force field that is also supposed to be hard. Comes down to punching super harder. Never understood why it was even necessary, except as a visual cue to make things easier to follow and understand. But you have visual and sound effects for that as well...As for swords and slicing harder, the detonation theory/rule, doesn't quite work. Unless we're talking about thousands of miniscule detonations travelling in a thin straight line to a direction opposite of the blade edge. Someone with that kind of control could do practically anything with Haki. Just remember the range Zoro has with his Haki air slices. That's just pure insanity.
Then there's Observation. So ok, you can sense living organism, even scan them at higher levels. You can predict how people will move, and that kinda makes sense. You tap into your "sixth sense" so to say, a subconscious awareness of the surroundings and can predict attacks incoming. It especially makes sense if you're focused and expecting you might get attacked. Or if you trained it so well you don't need to be on guard all the time, have your own little spidey sense. But Foresight complicates things again. It's not just predicting movements. People actually see the future. How objects will move, what people are going to say to a letter. That's not just sixth sense any more, that's tapping into fate itself. What's the source of that power? It certainly has to be more than just spirit. You're connected to the laws of universe themselves, like a Jedi is connected to the force.
In a way, Conqueror is the simplest and easiest to explain. Some people are born with powers to dominate. They can affect people and objects, and hide themselves from being noticed by Observation and who knows what else. But is it the chicken or the egg? It's not all genetics in life. I guess it comes down to whether someone will tap into their potential.
These things are not something I think about often, but you realize how it falls flat when you try to deconstruct it. The questions I have can still be explained along the way, just feel that, for such a game changer, they could have been elaborated on a lot earlier. Something more than just broad strokes. Or just kept a lot simpler so there's no need for details.
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@Razh Each force field isn't the same in strength. Improving your force field as you become more experience is representative of your will becoming stronger. Why did it improve? You are more tested. That's what will/spirit is.
Ryou is what they refer to Haki and they mostly go for CoA. It isn't a more advanced practice. Mantra isn't a more advanced version of CoO. The people in both places just see it differently mentally.
The warriors of Wano are explained to have strong will/spirit. This is why it's so dramatic to see their will broken. That focus and concentration puts them at an advantage as opposed to someone born in the East Blue that doesn't practice sword fighting as much. There's a pride there.
Zoro living in the East Blue doesn't mine kairoseki, deal with their differing weather, clash from young and is laid to rest with the sword. They are proficient in CoA and practice differently because that is the way of the warrior. It makes them more prepared for Ryuo which is Haki control.
It's one thing to cover yourself with the armor, but to now control it is different thing. It goes back to Law's statement as he first sees Bounce Man in 785.
It's a natural progression to waste the new power, then learn efficiency. Oda showed the aura flow from parts of the body to other sections.
It's not punching harder. There's control, focus for observation, and Haki/spirit itself growing as the character becomes more experienced.
Luffy went through trying to punch harder at 1 point and learned that's not the way. He has to be aware of how he's letting his Haki flow, which is control.
It even fits perfectly because he just grew in awareness. Makes the most sense to jump to control after improving on how he perceives things.
Hardening reinforces the point of punching harder not being the case. The spirit/will can improve, so it can become visible. Haki is there whether it's visible or not.
As Rayleigh said, Haki is in everyone. Becoming a user just mean that you're aware of it and apply it at different levels.
CoO relies on focus, which Kata was really good at. When he wasn't focused, he paid for it. When he was focus, it took Luffy being a more aware version of himself to keep up and get that result.
Characters are not incapable of losing focus. Fighters gain experience and grow in other series.
Predicting the future still falls under awareness. If you can perceive it, it's awareness that the character is experiencing. Especially since he's visualizing it in his mind.
To add on to that, there are times when the character can't see the future as Dogtooth explained. It's hard to predict (862).
Control, predictions, and making your spirit visible are just not complicated. It's actually creative to work all these normal things up together and pair them with the already chaotic DF abilities.
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I'm re-reading HxH through illegal means (sue me), at chapter 185 right now. That means, the very end of Greed Island.
A good read so far, all things considered. Yorknew is definitely the highlight, but I enjoyed Greed Island a good deal, too. Yorknew had that bizarre, almost 5 chapter detour into "we gotta make some money" with that Zepile guy derailing the narrative because Togashi gonna Togashi, made specially egregious since it follows the potentially most exciting HxH has been till now, the Spiders assault on the auction + the shadow beasts vs. Uvogin + Kurapika battling Uvogin. And suddenly. . .do you wanna hear about our lord and saviour, Counterfeits? But beyond that, things are pretty exciting all around.
But reading all the conversation around the Nen power system, I gotta say, for what is lauded as the best battle system bar none. . .HxH has, at least so far, an insanely low number of battles. I mean, I'm officially half-way through the manga, and Gon has fought the dancing tops guy (twice) and 2 relevant guys: Hisoka and Genthru, with both fights being basically "he has potential, but right now he's still a greenhorn". Then there's the infamous Kurapika vs. Uvogin fight, of course, but I think that's about it? Well, and Hisoka vs. Kastro, I guess...
But it's so weird that for the entire first arc, the hunter exam, and the zoldycks mansion arc, there's literally 0 fights. So many instances of "hey, they're gonna duke it out!" but then. . .nope.
Chimera Ant is next and I seem to recall there's more fights in there, so we'll see.
That said, so far things are relatively brisky and "fun" and "adventurous", but I swear I'm drearing the prospect of getting to the Election arc or the International Travel Bureocracy arc or the current Prince Succession arc, or as I like to call all of the above, the "I'm tired of drawing exciting stuff so now we're just going to talk" Saga. Maybe my opinion will be different this time around, I sincerely hope so.
Edit: just to chime in on the Haki vs. Nen discussion: isn't Nen also kind of a be all end all system? It's literally explained like "you might be the strongest guy in the universe, but if you don't know how to use your aura a 5 year old that does know will kill you with a single punch". Like, we know Killua can move 8 tons with his bare hands and 0 nen knowledge, and can rip people's hearts with 0 effort, but suddenly if a regular joe imbues himself with aura, Killua's mammoth, insane strength means jackshit unless he too can use aura. Honestly, I don't 100% roll with that idea.
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talking is exciting
@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Edit: just to chime in on the Haki vs. Nen discussion: isn't Nen also kind of a be all end all system? It's literally explained like "you might be the strongest guy in the universe, but if you don't know how to use your aura a 5 year old that does know will kill you with a single punch". Like, we know Killua can move 8 tons with his bare hands and 0 nen knowledge, and can rip people's hearts with 0 effort, but suddenly if a regular joe imbues himself with aura, Killua's mammoth, insane strength means jackshit unless he too can use aura. Honestly, I don't 100% roll with that idea.
this isn't true, look at Zushi vs Killua or the chimera ants also regular weapons can kill nen users.
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@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
but suddenly if a regular joe imbues himself with aura, Killua's mammoth, insane strength means jackshit unless he too can use aura. Honestly, I don't 100% roll with that idea.
I think the tradeoff is that literally anyone can use nen if they're taught about it, or can even just have it spontaneously unlocked by soeone that has the ability to. it takes zero training or ambition to to actually get nen, you just have to be aware it exists and then told what to do.
Getting mastery of it takes work obviously, but the bare minimum unlock is universal and easy, so the super strong guy versus weak nen user example isn't going to happen super often outside of the "literal children try to go to a world's strongest X and face fully skilled adults".
Heck the current arc is nothing but newbies getting their powers unlocked and going to town with them the literal next day. And the chimera ants were the same, they were only sentient for a few weeks.
And so its fine that the 12 year old freaky strong protags had no concept of the system, or the guy that just wanted to be a doctor. Super magic eyeball revenge guy not clueing in on it a little more iffy but then he super mastered it in like five minutes once he did know.
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@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
derailing the narrative because Togashi gonna Togashi
Ain't that the truth. His eccentricities are what make him great, but they are also his greatest weakness. But hey at least you rarely have to say i saw the topic coming when he launches into some random philosophy tangent or an info dump on the intricacies of pottery.
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https://onepiecechapters.com/chapters/4712/hunter-x-hunter-chapter-392
Togashi's weekly comment makes me hopeful about the rest of the serialization, but on the other hand it sounds a bit like he's losing his mind a bit ?
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I know this hole mafia and Spiders stuff is needed to bring chaos on the lower tiers, and Morena will probably be the catalyst that will make shit hit the fan for everyone, but so far I find the succession dispute so much more interesting that whenever we move down I feel like wasting time.
The majority of the readers probably want more of the Spiders, though, so I can't complain if Togashi uses this batch of chapters to focus on them after so many years. Hopefully now things heat up so I become invested on this plot as well.
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Nice, i was right on my prediction on where the plot is going. If I'm not wrong whatever happens here is going to carry over to the main decks (prediction) and Spiders (including Hisoka) X Kuraprika X Morena (too important to off so soon) X Fourth prince will be the center of the main conflict of this arc. With outliers being the other competent princes of course.
Anyway, of fucking course Hisoka doesn't give a shit about disguising himself. -
@Nilitch or he might be happy with going on twitter and seeing all the love, or he found a new way to draw without feeling constant pain in his back, or it's just a mood that will pass and we still stick to the schedule and get another 4 years haitus.
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Hinrigh hasn't heard about paypal and tax heavens ? "wait here, I'll bring you the 50million" wtf. Are these guys living in the prehistoric age or something ?
@access-timeco said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
I know this hole mafia and Spiders stuff is needed to bring chaos on the lower tiers, and Morena will probably be the catalyst that will make shit hit the fan for everyone, but so far I find the succession dispute so much more interesting that whenever we move down I feel like wasting time.
The majority of the readers probably want more of the Spiders, though, so I can't complain if Togashi uses this batch of chapters to focus on them after so many years. Hopefully now things heat up so I become invested on this plot as well.
I kinda agree with that and even with what Luini said in the chapter. I feel like we're going from top world-class nen conflicts to random nen players that are weaker than the shadow beasts. I know Togashi is doing things differently and that his manga isn't packed with fights, but after the chimera ants arc we should be getting more characters with broken nen abilities like Tserriednich. People that are as strong as the royal guards maybe ?
I understand that we're supposed to get there eventually. And I can enjoy background characters. Just giving a week-to-week reaction after all like everyone... but lol at Lynch being knocked out by whatever Hisoka did. Maybe they should have looked at the video of heaven's arena like big-brain Ken'i before going around punching random people ?
@zeltrax225 man, this better escalate properly and end up like fine wine. I think that these conflicts spreading to the higher decks are bound to happen. It should even happen during the weekly banquet--- best opportunity.
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@wolfwood said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
derailing the narrative because Togashi gonna Togashi
Ain't that the truth. His eccentricities are what make him great, but they are also his greatest weakness. But hey at least you rarely have to say i saw the topic coming when he launches into some random philosophy tangent or an info dump on the intricacies of pottery.
Yeah, this pretty much. Togashi is really interesting, and also really irritating and obnoxious.
He's kind of a smartass? But I can't really hate him, cause that brings a personality to the series that, simply put, no other shonen series has.
@Lord-Gaimon said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Edit: just to chime in on the Haki vs. Nen discussion: isn't Nen also kind of a be all end all system? It's literally explained like "you might be the strongest guy in the universe, but if you don't know how to use your aura a 5 year old that does know will kill you with a single punch". Like, we know Killua can move 8 tons with his bare hands and 0 nen knowledge, and can rip people's hearts with 0 effort, but suddenly if a regular joe imbues himself with aura, Killua's mammoth, insane strength means jackshit unless he too can use aura. Honestly, I don't 100% roll with that idea.
this isn't true, look at Zushi vs Killua or the chimera ants also regular weapons can kill nen users.
@Robby said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
I think the tradeoff is that literally anyone can use nen if they're taught about it, or can even just have it spontaneously unlocked by soeone that has the ability to. it takes zero training or ambition to to actually get nen, you just have to be aware it exists and then told what to do.
Getting mastery of it takes work obviously, but the bare minimum unlock is universal and easy, so the super strong guy versus weak nen user example isn't going to happen super often outside of the "literal children try to go to a world's strongest X and face fully skilled adults".
Heck the current arc is nothing but newbies getting their powers unlocked and going to town with them the literal next day. And the chimera ants were the same, they were only sentient for a few weeks.
And so its fine that the 12 year old freaky strong protags had no concept of the system, or the guy that just wanted to be a doctor. Super magic eyeball revenge guy not clueing in on it a little more iffy but then he super mastered it in like five minutes once he did know.
Hmm, fair point. Guess I went a bit overboard with the generalizations. Also true: guns kill nen users, which is. . .weird? I just saw bee lady, whatshername, get shot in the face by a chimera ant, and pokkle punching spider chimera ant and not hurting it at all. Again, if just using your aura guarantees pulverizing (really strong) human bones in one hit even if you have no muscles whatsoever, stoping a gunshot should be relatively easy, just like Uvogin did. Of course, Uvogin is insanely strong, but that's why he stops freaking missiles and doesn't even bother with sniper rifle shots.
It's still weird to me that Killua is not even a heavy hitter in the world of HxH. Base strength wise, Gon supposedly barely managed to move the 1 ton door, but Killua moved the 16 ton doors. With 0 nen involved. After nen training? Gon is the one that hits hard, Killua goes for yo-yos and electricity and moving really fast.
Shouldn't Killua being basically a super human bridge the "aura" gap? During the Heaven's Arena arc, we're told that if they get hit with aura, even Gon and Killua will turn into amputees. And, indeed, Gon gets multiple bones broken by ¿Gido?, who is at the bottom of the barrel of the nen world, and is told that it was pure luck he didn't end up mutilated. But Killua's base stats shouldn't amount to a bit more than that?
Anyways: is the start to the Chimera Ant arc good or what? World building, action, tension, even a bit of humour. . .20 something chapters in, this is Togashi at his most "shonen", I guess, with power levels (and even numbers indicating if my aura is bigger than yours!) and a tooooon of action. It's kinda funny suddenly the manga is aimed at edgy teenagers that are sure "it's not just a phase, dad", but beyond that, so far, this is pretty intense.
I seem to remember things get rougher now, and monologues start going RAMPANT during the palace invasion, but I think I'm still quite far from that part. Also, Gon is a ladies man (cause old tourist ladies on Whale Island are horny for underage Gon and constantly demand his services or some shit??? do I remember that correctly?) and Killua has a Magic Needle in his brain, right? I think that comes right after the fight with Knuckles and Shoot? We'll see, we'll see.
Also. . .remember Gyro/Jairo? The character introduction literally states that, at some point, he's going to meet Gon and "we'll see if the fact they did not meet today brought them good or bad fortune".
They won't ever meet, right?
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@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Hinrigh hasn't heard about paypal and tax heavens ? "wait here, I'll bring you the 50million" wtf. Are these guys living in the prehistoric age or something ?
He was probably going to fetch Lynch since she could just ask the guard where Morena is an punch the answer out of him.
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@access-timeco said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Hinrigh hasn't heard about paypal and tax heavens ? "wait here, I'll bring you the 50million" wtf. Are these guys living in the prehistoric age or something ?
He was probably going to fetch Lynch since she could just ask the guard where Morena is an punch the answer out of him.
Good point. But I feel like this should have been in the text then. Like by showing Hinrigh's thoughts or just him taking his phone and calling Lynch.
Next time we see Hinrigh, he'll have Hisoka brought to him by Zakuro... And the guard will transform into an internet-meme of "legend says he's still there waiting for his 50 million"
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It's going to be "hilarious" when this arc ends with a giant bomb going off on the boat killing 95% of the participants and making all the years of struggle beforehand dealing with minor characters completely pointless.
@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Shouldn't Killua
Does it even matter? It's been literally ten years since either he or Gon were on camera and will be who knows how many more before they are again. They're not even on the boat going with the plot. Any potential or discrepencies in how good they may be or in Gon regaining his Nen or Killua protecting his wish granting genie are... basically moot.
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@Robby said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
It's going to be "hilarious" when this arc ends with a giant bomb going off on the boat killing 95% of the participants and making all the years of struggle beforehand dealing with minor characters completely pointless.
@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Shouldn't Killua
Does it even matter? It's been literally ten years since either he or Gon were on camera and will be who knows how many more before they are again. They're not even on the boat going with the plot. Any potential or discrepencies in how good they may be or in Gon regaining his Nen or Killua protecting his wish granting genie are... basically moot.
Well. . .it matters to me now? Cause they are, at the moment (chapter 217) the protagonists. I should "work" with the idea that they'll keep being the protagonists, at least in the near future.
Edit: Wait, what in the fuck. So, yeah, I recalled correctly: Gon went out with what he literally calls "cougars" in the past. The past of a 12 year old meaning. . .adult women hunted a 11 year old? 10 year old?
BUT. . .Palm has a crush with him and goes on a date with him. . .and I just found out she's TWENTY-TWO years old?
Holy mother of everything that's fucked.
Oda is a creep, yes, and he'll always be, but Togashi just left him in the motherfucking dust.
This is Adam Sandler's "That's my boy" levels of dude-broism vision of the world. "He's such a boss he bangs ladies even though he is 12 years old, duuuude. He's so cooool". Holy crap.
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I think it will be fun, with a complete understanding that it will never happen, is that the succession arc ends, we reach Dark continent and the plot moves to Zodiacs, Beyond and Ging/Pariston and then we end this entire POV with as they step into the Dark Continent. This opens up a time skip to Gon and Killua and where from their POV they have to go to the Dark Continent, either to find out what happened to the Zodiacs (For Gon, Ging) or for whatever reason.
But I do think that this arc exists to warp up Kuraprika's entire deal with the Spiders. Depending on how it go, I do believe there is a possibility that this is the end of the line for the Troupe. If we consider the odds stacked against them: Hisoka, Kuraprika, the Mafia (if they allied with one over the other), Illumi, Zodiacs(low possibility but still a possibility) and the wild card (ex-client) that is the 4th prince. I think it will be fitting for them to suffer some major losses/death/resolutions in this very arc if Togashi is looking to wrap things up. He doesn't need to do the dark continent (he can always do an open ending), but he does need to close up Kuraprika's character to a deserving conclusion (that he did for Gon and Killua).
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@Cockycent the argument that nen can do anything that a DF can is something I'm okay with and I don't necessarily disagree with but I think your point was if we add seastone and DF to the nen system, the system would suffer! Which I disagree because adding devil fruits is similar to gaining another nen ability and we've seen how people like Chrollo/Kuraprika can juggle with them. But you are right that there's no need to because it will be needlessly complicated but I'm saying that Nen as a system wouldn't suffer if one day "fruits that when eaten gives you abilities" is introduced in the series. Because with nen, you need to be creative and be the one who conjure that one ability you are most suited for. Whereas with the fruit, you are forced to work with something you might not even one.
Anyway, regarding DF progression, by saying Oda don't show us the training of Luffy/Robin/Etc, yeah, that's my whole point. It's close to abstract and a soft magic system rather than a hard one. There's no metrics, no ways to measure, and no evidence on what kind of input is required to push progression. Compare this to how Nen breaks things down and how Gon Killua had to go through 3 training arcs that contains Nen information to push their proficiency.
"Tama is worn out several times" it doesn't matter if it only works on this or that subject filtered by whatever criteria, the point is despite her being 8 years old and lacking any sort of DF training or "progression" if you call it, she is able to control or manipulate a huge bunch of combatants way above her in objectively every metrics. It is broken not just because of the ability but because a little girl can seemingly spam it with no real consequences, and the ceiling for its use is conveniently whatever the author wants. Another case is Princess Mansherry, a sheltered dwaf princess with no exposure to combat or real need to push her DF creatively but she was able to also mass heal a huge size of Dressrosa population, once again with no indication of any DF progression or consequences.
You can't say that there is any sense, growth, or logic in the Devil Fruits system when the whole point of people like Blackbeard is that he sees it as a cheat code that with a strong DF, you are set. Which is why he killed Thatch. Kaku had no difficulty using it creatively against Zoro like a minute after he eats the fruit too. Toki is definitely not a combatant, and is definitely not someone who has shown an inkling of interest in furthering her skills/prowess, but all she had to do was bite into a fruit to break the time-space continuum.
I think your whole point makes sense once you settled on the argument that the ability to push your devil fruit and use it to its maximum potential is heavily dependent on your own physical development and martial skills (or haki). If that's your point, then I am 100% in agreement. There is no "oh you unlocked this addition feature of this devil fruit because you've used it x times" but rather "you can use this feature because your muscles are strong enough for it to work" but the ability to use the fruit that way is always there, you just aren't fit/creative enough for it. That's not DF progression at all.
then how do you explain awakening, that's progression. Nobody can. Nobody knows why Kaido, a seasoned veteran by all measures didn't use it. Nobody knows why the beasts are Impel down used it. See, that's the whole point of a soft magic system, nobody can qualify or quantify it and it's a deliberate choice.
Even if there is progression or growth or an exp bar for devil fruits, Oda has done little to nothing to show that to us and that is deliberate because how devil fruit works is 100% more of a soft power magic system compared to a hard one like Nen.
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@zeltrax225 My point is not that if you add seastone and DF to the system, but if those 2 existed in HxH like how DF and Haki both coexist as separate entities in OP, it would be pointless.
Nen has already shown consequences and capabilities of a DF. A Mirrorworld, door door, producing wax, etc are possible through Nen.
I wouldn't call Luffy or Robin's progression as little to nothing. Even Brook producing ice.
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but you don't choose your df or mold it to your own, nen users tend to do that. they think of an ability that suits them/reasonates with them and manifests it.
That's the difference.Yeah but developing a new approach to your ability does not mean unlocking a new aspect of your ability. Gear 5 is the closest to an unlock (once again, awakening) but we have been shown throughout that all of luffy's gears was him learning haki+being physically stronger before being able to take on those new forms. It's just whether they can a) think of creative ways to use it and b) whether they have the physical prowess+haki to use it. The fruit doesn't develop new skill trees for them, except awakening of course but then my point is the requirements for that have been pretty vague too.
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Nen users are restricted to their Nen aura and some can try to reach other types, but we've seen how much of a struggle that is. Knov having his set of abilities is a little similar to Oda creating a character with magma and Haki powers. In the end, both are left to create what they want within the limits of Conjuring (bits of other types) and Magma (plus Haki).
The process of molding your Nen abilities leads to what the character is good at because trying to go too far from it is a waste unless specialist. There's Kite who is stuck with a bunch of abilities just as Galdino can is stuck with wax and it's many capabilities.
Nen just can't afford to be partnered wit another force up the alley of a Devil Fruit. As I used the earlier example, if Togashi had to deal with Devil Fruit, what would be it's purpose if Nen can already lead to stealing shadows, door door, warping, transforming, etc.
Nen fits what HxH needs, just like Haki and Devil Fruit fits what OP requires. Luffy didn't need to punch harder with Kata. He just needed to match his awareness, even if just a little and use a form that complements the growth in perception. Luffy could waste a to of Haki punching harder and he was never going to touch Dogtooth.
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Some artists, Oda, Gege (JJK), Araki (Jojo), Sui ishida (Tokyo Ghoul), and Gotouge (Kimetsu) drew for HXH's exhibition. I thought I'll slap them together here. It's a good reminder of how respected and looked up to Togashi is. He is a genuinely nice guy and I think him coming back meant a lot for a huge number of manga artists too. I can't help but scoff at Oda's comments a little.
Oda
Gege
Araki
Sui Ishida (image + comments)
Gotouge (Kimetsu)
And if you have further interest, here's some
of the exhibition.
All credit goes to the twitter handler, all I did was save you some seconds, make it accessible and bring it to your attention.
@Cockycent i agree with a lot of what you said and I think there's only one point I am trying to make, which is mostly about DF progression being vague and how good as it might be, I don't think it is as thought out as Nen. Same with Haki. But I am in full agreement that Haki and DF are more for OP because once again, i don't think battles is everything in OP.
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He was in elementary reading HxH and was able to finish his own work before Togashi looooooool
I don't even think he was trying to be mean, but it's still hilarious
Finally in the 370s!!!!!!!
@zeltrax225 I understand.
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Man, Araki's drawing has this strong androgenous component that I find terrifying and cool at the same time.
I was re-reading HxH these days too, @kouch_lee, and another thing that popped up in my mind was how Killua could possibily recognize his grandpa Nen lol
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@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@access-timeco said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Hinrigh hasn't heard about paypal and tax heavens ? "wait here, I'll bring you the 50million" wtf. Are these guys living in the prehistoric age or something ?
He was probably going to fetch Lynch since she could just ask the guard where Morena is an punch the answer out of him.
Good point. But I feel like this should have been in the text then. Like by showing Hinrigh's thoughts or just him taking his phone and calling Lynch.
Next time we see Hinrigh, he'll have Hisoka brought to him by Zakuro... And the guard will transform into an internet-meme of "legend says he's still there waiting for his 50 million"
But do we even need to be spoon fed with such bits? Just few chapters ago we had Hin paying off guards just before making their own guns kill them. In the same chapter it was shown his henchman can get answers simply by punching people. Safe to assume he was as likely to kill the man after getting the info as he was to pay him off.
At least I for one am grateful when we as readers can be left to our own devices. Not exactly sure why I had to know all there is to know about ordering and supplying in the first part of the chapter, lol.
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Fascinatingly enough, Togashi recently revealed a bunch of characters’ Nen categories for the first time through his exhibit.
Nen is apparently a spectrum — which was implied and stated but never visualized previously. Really interesting stuff to see!
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The spiders are holding a furious manhunt for Hisoka meanwhile he's on another floor casually chilling in a tracksuit lol.
I'm still iffy on the more casual use of post mortem nen but the Xi-Yu undertaker being so obsessed with her job of cleaning up family kills that her ability was able to activate after death is so hilarious to me. So basically her dying thought in her final moments was "Damn if only I could have chopped up more bodies in that meat shop!"
This battle royale between Hisoka, the troupe, and the mafia is going to be really interesting. Hinrigh and the Char guy both want to control the situation but it's almost certainly going to backfire on them. We know Hisoka isn't above using alliances to get what he wants so I'm betting he will be receptive as long as they are helping him isolate the spiders.
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@kouch_lee said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Edit: Wait, what in the fuck. So, yeah, I recalled correctly: Gon went out with what he literally calls "cougars" in the past. The past of a 12 year old meaning. . .adult women hunted a 11 year old? 10 year old?
BUT. . .Palm has a crush with him and goes on a date with him. . .and I just found out she's TWENTY-TWO years old?
Holy mother of everything that's fucked.
Oda is a creep, yes, and he'll always be, but Togashi just left him in the motherfucking dust.
This is Adam Sandler's "That's my boy" levels of dude-broism vision of the world. "He's such a boss he bangs ladies even though he is 12 years old, duuuude. He's so cooool". Holy crap.
I completely forgot about this! Imagine writing a grown woman unironically going on a date with your prepubescent MC. I loved Palm but that little "saga" was so out of left field and weird.
Also he's been going on dates for years! And Mito is supposed to be the good caretaker but she either didn't know or didn't care that her child was talking to a bunch of pedophiles??
And it never comes up again before or after. Such a bad random plot point to include all around.
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Anything goes in Watsuki land.
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@Razh said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@access-timeco said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Hinrigh hasn't heard about paypal and tax heavens ? "wait here, I'll bring you the 50million" wtf. Are these guys living in the prehistoric age or something ?
He was probably going to fetch Lynch since she could just ask the guard where Morena is an punch the answer out of him.
Good point. But I feel like this should have been in the text then. Like by showing Hinrigh's thoughts or just him taking his phone and calling Lynch.
Next time we see Hinrigh, he'll have Hisoka brought to him by Zakuro... And the guard will transform into an internet-meme of "legend says he's still there waiting for his 50 million"
But do we even need to be spoon fed with such bits? Just few chapters ago we had Hin paying off guards just before making their own guns kill them. In the same chapter it was shown his henchman can get answers simply by punching people. Safe to assume he was as likely to kill the man after getting the info as he was to pay him off.
At least I for one am grateful when we as readers can be left to our own devices. Not exactly sure why I had to know all there is to know about ordering and supplying in the first part of the chapter, lol.
The goods brought to the ship by zeppelins might be a way to tell us how Gon & Kilua will come back. I wish they'll have a real reason to come back on an expedition btw, and also wish their personality will have drastically changed, meaning their nen and hatsu too. Especially Gon.
And honestly, sending money to the soldier officer through his phone wouldn't feel heavy for the reader imo. It's way quicker than walls of text or Hinrigh doing what he's doing now. Tell me if I didn't understand your point because I feel like I may have missed something.
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@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
And honestly, sending money to the soldier officer through his phone wouldn't feel heavy for the reader imo. It's way quicker than walls of text or Hinrigh doing what he's doing now. Tell me if I didn't understand your point because I feel like I may have missed something.
From what I heard - no specific to this manga - Japan operates on a cash first policy. If cash is out of the way, them comes check, credit card, etc.
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@pariston_hill said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@Nilitch said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
And honestly, sending money to the soldier officer through his phone wouldn't feel heavy for the reader imo. It's way quicker than walls of text or Hinrigh doing what he's doing now. Tell me if I didn't understand your point because I feel like I may have missed something.
From what I heard - no specific to this manga - Japan operates on a cash first policy. If cash is out of the way, them comes check, credit card, etc.
Slightly off topic but from what I've seen so far most of the countries operate on a cash first basis is. It's pretty much the US and Canada where cards seem to be more of a main thing.
Not that I've ever been to North America so please correct me if I'm wrong here. But no matter where in the world I was, it was always the North American friends that I made that were saying things like "I was surprised they still use cash this much here" or "I didn't have to use cash payments this much in ages".
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I was just talking with my family how none of us have held an actual bill since 2017, and that was just because my youngest cousin was too young to have a smartphone so we couldn't just swish him his birthday money like you usually do. And that's just paper money, actual coins i haven't used since like 2012. Guess that's kinda weird in a global perspective
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Wow, that's a first hearing a European saying this.
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Cash is a to go, but most people pay using credit or debit cards. Than there also those e-wallets, phone bank transfers (PIX here). The only thing that I would say is mostly dead here is checks. And you guys in the "western garden" don't use Fixed-Rate Payments for general goods.
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In the 380s finally. I remember more of the 360 and 370s than I do for this volume of chapters. Looking at my little notes, I don't even remember copying some of this.
I want Benjamin to be 1 of last 3 princes, but I know he will ultimately be used to show off how tough Tserriednich is. Just gotta blame Theta for this nonsense.
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@Ivotas credit cards are definitely the preferred method of payment here but there are a lot of small businesses that still only accept cash. It wouldn't surprise me if there are still many small towns across the US where food can't be purchased with a credit or debit card.
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@wolfwood interesting stuff. If I remember from old layout, you're from Sweden?
Croatia here. Cash is still used but I use it less and less. A lot of people here prefer cash, but it's mostly force of habit and distrust towards banks and government. Personally, wouldn't mind the complete crossover to non-cash, mostly because corruption would be greatly reduced. It's a big issue for us here.
Speaking of which, it's likely part of the reason why mafia and informants alike would prefer cash transactions.
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@Razh said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
mostly because corruption would be greatly reduced.
While money laundering is easier with physical money I really really REALLY doubt that corruption would face major decrease in a cashless society.
Also were doing the thing Togashi does were he derails the main story for some philosophical discussion that end up going (close or) no where. -
Cultural difference is one argument I was expecting. But anyway, I still felt something off with that scene. And maybe I'm nitpicking, but this is what Togashi gets when his characters are supposed to be thinking about everything.