If Carrot joins all I will be able to see is this:
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! Credit where credit is due, Kin'emon. A man worthy of my respect!!!
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)
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I just have to ask, in the completely hypothetical event that Yamato doesn't end up joining, will his supporters be cool with that as well? Because personally, I'm on record saying that if the crew leaves Wano without Carrot, I'll accept it. It'd be rough if there were those who couldn't accept if Yamato chooses a different course himself, 1016 notwithstanding.
I'm personally fine with Yams not joining, especially if their ultimate destination is something that makes sense and is built up correctly (which I do trust Oda with).
Being wrong on the internet is honestly something I try to not care too much about and is part of the fun of getting things right (calling X Drake still being a marine on an OP discord server is still one of my favorite personal moments of being in the op fandom, so I don't blame people for trying to read things in advance).
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Yamato's gotta leave. Doesn't necessarily have to join the Straw Hats, but I wouldn't bet against it. In fact, I felt like it was a foregone conclusion this time last year or earlier. I'm surprised this thread still has so much discussion to be honest. Also, gotta be said that Yamato's joining doesn't excite me much at all. The "Want to be Oden" thing has never worked for me and not much about the character has really excited me in the same way Franky, Brook, and Jinbe did.
I see very little chance for Carrot to join, though I could be wrong. Tama's chances intrigue me ever since Momo was aged up. I could imagine her duping Shinobu into accidentally aging her up and then sneaking onto the ship as a 16 year old apprentice, but that's a long shot and I don't think her powers suggest she's a future crewmate. She feels more like a character that's supposed to be in the next generation, though it will always bug me that Ace would make the promise about letting her join when she's older and then have the same thing occur with Luffy. It's superfluous.
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I just have to ask, in the completely hypothetical event that Yamato doesn't end up joining, will his supporters be cool with that as well? Because personally, I'm on record saying that if the crew leaves Wano without Carrot, I'll accept it. It'd be rough if there were those who couldn't accept if Yamato chooses a different course himself, 1016 notwithstanding.
Sure, I'd be willing to accept it, if not necessarily like it - especially if Oda actually manages to build the story to that conclusion in a satisfying way.
But I see no signs of that happening. Yamato's intentions have been clear from the start.
Serving as a mentor figure for Momonosuke in the short term (i.e. through the remainder of this arc) is all fine and good, but doing so in perpetuity only serves to negate Yamato's desires to go out to sea and his connection to Ace, while simultaneously serving to blunt Momo's character growth - it's narratively chaining Yams to Momo for the express purpose of preventing either from following a path independent of one another, and tossing aside fairly large chunks of Yamato's core backstory and motivations as superfluous in the process. It's an argument I find hollow at best and disingenuous at worst.
I'd expect both Yams and Momo to join the Strawhats before Yams giving up his dreams to stay behind and play mentor for Shogun Momo.
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Yamamoto is joining guys! Oda just told me over snapchat
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I told him to send me some nudes and all he sent was some pics of his hands cramping. Dude's overworked, hopefully these breaks help!
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Yamato's gotta leave. Doesn't necessarily have to join the Straw Hats, but I wouldn't bet against it. In fact, I felt like it was a foregone conclusion this time last year or earlier. I'm surprised this thread still has so much discussion to be honest. Also, gotta be said that Yamato's joining doesn't excite me much at all. The "Want to be Oden" thing has never worked for me and not much about the character has really excited me in the same way Franky, Brook, and Jinbe did.
I think Yamato has been pretty exciting, but as for the character progression, that I totally understand. It doesn't help that Yamato hasn't been given much chance to emotionally connect with Luffy either since he's too busy fighting Kaido.
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That's absolutely true in general, but it hardy applies to this conversation in my opinion.
I mean, i'd love to aknowledge the valid bases of "Yams won't join, Carrot will"… if those were ever provided.
I'm not especially enthusiast of Yamato Joining the crew, by the way. I'm just annoyed at the discussion never really going beyond "i dont't really aknowledge what the text of the story we're commenting is saying on this specific topic".For example, i don't believe Tama has any real chance of joining, but very good arguments were made in her favour, so that was worth discussing.
As i said, if Yamato ends up not joining, people won't have to just "accept" it happening, they'll discuss how and why that happened, and decide if they like it or not, and move on.
This bugged me a bit, because I think we all owe ourselves a certain amount of courtesy in debates and accept opinions and theories in a speculative thread without throwing personal burdens of proof. The validity of these arguments will be dictated by Oda when time's due.
When it comes to Yamato and Carrot I admit my gut feeling is with Carrot for very personal reasons… namely that I'm less than enthusiastic about Yamato's prospects in the story and what the character represents in terms of overloaded symbolic weight in a series that seems already far too down the rabbit hole (pun absolutely intended) in that sense lately. I'm also not finding myself much of a fan of the character and their dynamics. Meanwhile Carrot is fun and has good chemistry with the SHs, sometimes it's just that I ask for.
It would be absurd to deny how well-positioned Yamato is in this "career" but I feel it's also something that depending on where the wind blows can run against their chances, particularly because this strong start has since found drawbacks. The relationship with Momo, which was non-existent, now it's a burden that needs to be resolved. The responsibility with Wano, which was only assumed as part of their identity as Oden, is now something that seems more compromising. Not just due to this guardian deity fruit, which after the latest developments on Luffy's awakened fruit I can only grow suspicions of, but because the more the narrative with Yamato advances it becomes clearer that they feel they owe something to Wano, and that something may be key to the character leaving with the Straw Hats or assuming another role. Those elements were not clearly present at the beginning and have since been introduced. I would dare say that Yamato, remaining a clear candidate, has gone from 100% "of course joining is the only possible way" to "let's see how these issues are resolved in their mind and then we can talk about next crewmate status".
If there's one thing that I feel is a double-edged sword in Carrot's narrative is her simplicity. What Oda is doing with her is hurting her chances every single week and I'm aware of that, defending that she would join in Wano is absurd specially with Yamato in the spotlight. But essentially, due to how has the character been written, this also means that Carrot doesn't need much else to join. She is basically accepted in the crew already. Does she need a tragic past, an elaborate dream, any of those absolute canon aspects every SH has in a checklist for us to make sense of it? Perhaps. Or perhaps she can just hop in there again and just follow the mood as she has been already very closely associated with the Straw Hats. If something like this happens, it won't make sense in theory, but it will make absolute narrative sense. And I'm hoping it just doesn't happen like that because like with every character I want lore and depth and specific motivations, but by not giving her focus lately Oda hasn't resolved or undone the previous focus either and that's an essential aspect to still make sense of her joining.
And then we can talk about theories and hints, but this is where my feelings stand at this point. Not denying the chances of Yamato, but I think the way the character has been treated makes them joining a long and complex journey, much more than it's often stated. After so many chapters there has been barely interaction with members of the crew and we are just speculating about their role or their running gag without much narrative basis to stand for. We don't even know if Yamato makes sense inside the crew, if you know what I mean. Carrot? The contrary. Not much focus, thrown to the side for so many chapters one only wonders if Oda forgot about her xD, but put her among the SHs and we all know what she offers in terms of interaction and being part of the dynamics, and she absolutely makes sense inside the crew. If Yamato joins and Carrot doesn't, it will be true to the current development and storytelling focus, but if the contrary happens it will seem as natural as breathing. If both or none become crewmates, the One Piece community will implode
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Looking at Yamato as a character, Oda-sensei introduced them in a very specific way that directed him toward Luffy. From the fact that Luffy was the person Yamato was waiting for to Yamato’s expression of wanting to travel aboard Luffy’s ship. There wasn’t much hesitation in Yamato’s mind about leaving with the Straw Hat Pirates once Wano was liberated and its borders opened. In order to make a case for Yamato remaining in Wano, the narrative would need to entrench Yamato and his desires within the plot threads of Wano but as at chapter 1047, that has not yet happened (potentially it still could). Rather, Yamato leaving with Luffy has only been reinforced.
How Yamato was introduced:
Let’s look at how Yamato was introduced. He hid himself from the Beast Pirates during that day in order to wait for Luffy to arrive so that he could meet him. The fact that Yamato specifically searched for Luffy and intervened in Luffy’s fight against Ulti conveys how focused Yamato was on Luffy. This reality became further apparent when Yamato declared he would fight on Luffy’s side. At this point, Yamato’s primary interest was Luffy, whom Yamato believed would stop Kaido. Yamato even told Luffy that he had no issue fighting against his father when Luffy inquired if he was okay with his father being defeated. In order for Yamato’s story to align with Momonosuke and Wano, the primary focus within Yamato’s mind would need to switch from Luffy to Wano.
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Going forward, Yamato rejected Kaido’s intention to make him shogun and became further indebted to Luffy when his explosive bindings were removed and Luffy shared with him the information that Momonosuke and the Akazaya Samurai were alive. Yamato guided Luffy to the Performance Floor where Momonosuke was chained. And this is where a very important moment conveying both Oda-sensei and Luffy’s impression of Yamato took place. When Yamato attempted to engage his father, Luffy stopped him and stated that Yamato and him weren’t the ones who needed to start the War. The ones who needed to initiate the War were the representatives of Wano i.e. the Akazaya Samurai. In Luffy’s eyes, Yamato was not a representation or reflection of Wano. Yamato was like him, an outsider. He was not an agent of Wano. Oda-sensei, at this point, clearly set up Yamato to be separate from those who truly belonged to Wano.!
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How Yamato and Momonosuke's relationship developed:Once the Akazaya Samurai attacked Kaido and began the war, Yamato could have rushed to Momonosuke to help save him but instead, Yamato remained beside Luffy while facing Ulti. Yamato declared he would become Oden on this day and that he stands in opposition to his father. Yamato also heard Luffy declare his intention to defeat the Beast Pirates, Big Mom and Orochi confirming Yamato’s belief that Luffy will be the one to save Wano. If at this point in time, Momonosuke was Yamato’s primary focus, Yamato would have acted to save him but instead, what we have is Yamato only taking on the responsibility of protecting Momonosuke AFTER ordered to by Luffy. Yamato’s primary focus remained Luffy with Momonosuke becoming his secondary focus. When Yamato saves Momonosuke, he mentions that he would die for Momonosuke. There is no lies in Yamato’s words but this moment did not push Momonosuke to be Yamato’s primary focus substantiated by Yamato still leaving Momonosuke to assist Luffy against Kaido and a second time leaving Momonosuke to stop the Onigashima bombs from exploding. These moments convey how Momonosuke continued to remain secondary to Luffy in Yamato’s mind.
The story Yamato shared with Momonosuke and Shinobu about his past conveyed how Luffy became important to Yamato after meeting Ace with Yamato only realizing Luffy’s relevance AFTER Ace died. It also presented to readers how meaningful being free and sailing the seas were to Yamato. There is also the fact that Yamato now knows what Luffy’s dream beyond being Pirate King is. A dream very intimate to Luffy as he expressed it in front of his brothers in the past. Additionally, chapter 999 sets up Yamato visiting Ace’s grave once Kaido is defeated and Wano’s borders are opened. There will definitely be payoff to the set up established. Yamato's flashback and narration also sets up the New Generation (which Yamato has become a part of) VS the Current Generation (Yonko).
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Arguably, the flashbacks also indirectly convey Yamato’s 3D2Y moment. The moment Yamato lost Ace was the moment he gained Luffy. Through the grief and sorrow, Yamato’s familiarity with Oden’s words and the story Ace shared with him unlocked a connection Yamato never noticed before. Luffy was the one Oden had been waiting for and desired to open Wano’s borders for. When Yamato met Ace, he was okay with leaving Wano on Ace’s ship if he could but once Yamato made the connection between Luffy and Joy Boy, he realized how important it was to open Wano’s borders. Freedom and adventure were always Yamato’s focus but saving Wano and opening its borders were never his primary concerns when he met Ace. It was Luffy who established in Yamato’s mind the need to have Wano’s borders opened. This is why Yamato has been waiting for Luffy and unlike how his meeting with Ace played out, Yamato is now aware of the importance of defeating Kaido and liberating the nation before leaving.Yamato abandoning Momonosuke to help Luffy fight Kaido establishes how important Luffy is to Yamato relative to Momonosuke. If Momonosuke was Yamato’s primary concern, Yamato would not have left Momonosuke vulnerable. Clearly at this point, Luffy is still Yamato’s primary focus. Yamato even mentions to Kaido without ambiguity and uncertainty or any other room for interpretation that he plans to LEAVE Wano WITH Luffy after Kaido is defeated. Those words are clear. No hesitation. No doubt. Only resolve.
Yamato goes on to further state that Luffy is the one who Oden was waiting for i.e. Joy Boy. This expression clearly establishes why Yamato is ready to fight for Luffy. Thanks to reading Oden’s journal and treating it as his Bible, Joy Boy (Luffy) became a figure of salvation within Yamato’s mind for Wano and the world. When Ace died, it was the connection Yamato made between Luffy and Joy Boy that likely inspired him to continue fighting through the grief and powerlessness (similar to what happened to Sabo). Through Yamato’s battle with Kaido, the theme of liberation became a focal point to his character. From his flashbacks, to the events in the present day, Yamato continuously challenged Kaido and refused to yield. Freeing the world is a story Joy Boy is destined for and Yamato very much aligns with this in regards to his past and the story playing out in the Wano Kuni Arc.
The main reason driving Yamato to fight Kaido was not to defeat Kaido and save Wano but to hold Kaido back until Luffy returns to challenge him again. Yamato even states this when Kaido expresses that Yamato cannot defeat him. Yamato knows he cannot defeat Kaido alone yet he still chooses to fight and this is because of Luffy. Yamato understands that he alone cannot help free Wano and places his belief in Luffy who he sees as Joy Boy, the representation of liberation. When Luffy does return, Oda-sensei expresses how well Luffy and Yamato work together with their unintentional joint attack against Kaido. This is one of Yamato’s best panels illustrated by Oda-sensei. Yamato left Kaido to Luffy when he returned and after seeing Luffy and Kaido split the sky like Oden described Roger and Whitbeard doing, Yamato had more confirmation that Luffy truly is the one to defeat Kaido. What Oden began to see in Roger which played a part in Oden agreeing to travel with Roger over Whitebeard, Yamato is seeing firsthand in Luffy.
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Yamato's belief in Momonosuke:Moving ahead, once again Yamato does not proactively leave with Momonosuke, he only does so when Luffy request Yamato to help Momonosuke with stopping Onigashima from falling on the Flower Capital. During Yamato guiding Momonosuke, he does not scold Momonosuke for being a coward (because Yamato doesn’t believe he is) but he does yell at Momonosuke for not believing in Luffy. Yamato believes Momonosuke is capable of saving Wano which is why Yamato left Momonosuke alone to deal with the Onigashima explosives. If Yamato truly felt Momonosuke was not ready and needed more of his advice, Yamato would have passed the responsibility of stopping the Onigashima bombs from exploding onto someone else and returned to help Momonosuke. That clearly did not happen. Only after the Onigashima bombs were dealt with did Yamato and Momonosuke reunite and this wasn’t by intention but by circumstance. Once the Wano Kuni Arc concludes after Momonosuke carries Onigashima on his back, Yamato’s will have little reason to remain in Wano over leaving with Luffy and helping him.
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Turning to scene where Momonosuke questions whether he is a coward, he expressed his frustration to Yamato at not knowing what his father discovered on Laugh Tale. Momonosuke’s desires of wanting to know the contents of the torn out page from Oden’s journal was conveyed to Yamato. This scene doesn’t express to Yamato that Momonosuke isn’t ready so he needs to remain in Wano but rather it gives Yamato more of reason to leave. Momonosuke wants to know the secrets of Laugh Tale and he confided this in Yamato. Not Luffy, Kin’emon or Robin but the child of Kaido. Yamato has a genuine reason to travel to Laugh Tale and help alleviate Momonosuke’s confusion. Momonosuke is destined to guide the world to the Dawn which is a plot thread set up to conclude after the Straw Hat Pirates reach Laugh Tale. And due to Momonosuke having confided in Yamato, it will be him conveying the secrets of Laugh Tale to Momonosuke.Through Momonosuke, who heard the voice of Zunesha, Yamato received confirmation that Luffy was Joy Boy. Yamato even queried Momonosuke on this. Yamato witnessing Luffy in Gear Five fighting Kaido as an equal gave Yamato more motivation to help him by requesting Momonosuke to keep Onigashima from falling. Yamato continues to believe in Momonosuke’s ability and the reality that Momonosuke is ready to carry the nation and the future of the world on his back.
Yamato continues to operate with Luffy as his primary focus. And at no time during the arc as at chapter 1047, has Oda-sensei had Yamato place Momonosuke as a concern above Luffy. Momonosuke has always been a secondary focus to Yamato. To Yamato, Luffy has been the one primarily driving his choices and actions.
The Okuchi no Makami And Its Role As Guardian Deity Of Wano:
The Okuchi no Makami may very well be a Guardian Deity of Wano but even if that is the case, does a Guardian Deity of Wano need to remain in Wano to continue being a Guardian? We already have evidence in the manga that the answer is no. When Kin'emon and Co. got sent 20 years into the future, they did not need to remain in Wano to fulfill their Guardian Deities role, rather they left and returned. In order to save and protect Wano, they needed allies and as such left Wano to reach Zou. At present a similar scenario is playing out. Wano initially closed its borders to protect itself from an external power and to await the return of Joy Boy. With Luffy being Joy Boy and about to defeat Kaido, Wano will be liberated and its border inevitably opened. Oden wished for this happen and for Wano and the world to support Joy Boy when he returns. Wano's ultimate victory over the external power they initially closed their borders for over 800 years ago will be determined by Joy Boy. Which in turn means the fate of Wano rest in the journey Luffy is engaged in. By leaving Wano with Luffy and assisting him as Oden wished (Yamato has inherited Oden's will), Yamato will be performing his role as Guardian Deity of Wano. Sailing with Luffy and performing the role of Guardian Deity are not mutually exclusive. And the home Yamato will return to after the journey will be Wano.
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When it comes to the Zoan Devil Fruits having a will, it establishes that the Zoan Devil Fruit has to an extent some choice over who their user is. The Okuchi no Makami Fruit chose Yamato. Not the Samurai. Not the Beast Pirates. Not an average civilian. But Yamato. A child who idolized Oden and wished to adventure and sail the seas. Why? Why Yamato? If the Okuchi no Makami Fruit was concerned with the protection of Wano, there would have been better options than a child of Kaido who was imprisoned on Onigashima unable leave. Zoan Devil Fruits may have a will but they cannot see into the future and know with certainty what will happen. It was not guaranteed that Yamato would continue to challenge their father for 20 years (or indefinitely - it is not like Fruit knew when Joy Boy would arrive…unless it did). The likely scenario was Yamato breaking down from despair, hopelessness and suffering to become a soldier of Kaido. Rather than some future event that hasn't happened motivating the Zoan Devil Fruit, what appears more likely is the current disposition of the individual being the focal rationale behind the Zoan Devil Fruit choosing the person. Did the Okuchi no Makami react to Yamato's adventurous and romantic spirit and his desire to carry on Oden's will?These are my thoughts on Yamato and how the plot is influencing the direction he is being developed in. The Wano Arc isn't just treating Yamato as a main character but the whole manga is supporting his story; from Ace, to Oden, to Luffy/Joy Boy, to Wano, to Kaido, to Xebec D. Rocks (likely betrayed Kaido), to Blackbeard (his actions resulted in Ace's death) to the Ancient Giants/Oni, to the Dawn, to the themes of liberation, freedom, romance and coexistence. The manga itself is highlighting Yamato as unique and important. Every single expected future arc has story threads related to Yamato.
Tldr; Luffy is Yamato's primary focus with Momonosuke/Wano as his secondary. Oda has yet to lift Momonosuke's importance above Luffy in Yamato's mind.
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Heh, people tell me Yamato isn't that exciting, yet why do I see her being talked about more than Kinemon joining the crew?
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Heh, people tell me Yamato isn't that exciting, yet why do I see her being talked about more than Kinemon joining the crew?
As a resident Yamato skeptic
I must say, I'm still absolutely 100% with the idea of Yamato joining if the alternative is Kinemon. Kinemon's lower half, on the other hand… -
If Kin'emon wanted to join the Straw Hat Pirates, he would be the strongest candidate.
But Kin'emon has a wife that has remained resolved for 20 years and now that he is back, rather than be a slave to adventure, he needs to dedicate every single remaining day he has left to his beautiful wife.
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I really like Tsuru's art style. -
As a resident Yamato skeptic
I must say, I'm still absolutely 100% with the idea of Yamato joining if the alternative is Kinemon. Kinemon's lower half, on the other hand…Luffy did want to recruit Kinemon's legs back at Punk Hazard of course, so maybe it's a foreshadowing, or maybe it isn't. lol
Now that I think about it, I also haven't seen as much discussion for characters like Kiku, Kawamatsu, or Hyogoro joining, even though they appeared in the arc and shared panels with Luffy long before Yamato did.
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Heh, people tell me Yamato isn't that exciting, yet why do I see her being talked about more than Kinemon joining the crew?
Kinemon is a swordsman and one who isn't quite interesting enough to set himself apart from Brook and especially Zoro, who has already mastered Kin's main technique. He hardly seems worth bringing up.
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Kinemon is a swordsman and one who isn't quite interesting enough to set himself apart from Brook and especially Zoro, who has already mastered Kin's main technique. He hardly seems worth bringing up.
Ah, but Kinemon has arguably shared as many panels with Luffy as crewmates like Jinbe have, and Luffy even shared a dramatically emotional moment with Kinemon too.
Actually, Hyogoro has had more panels with Luffy than with Momo, so that might mean Hyogoro is also likely to join the crew too based on that evidence.
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If Kinemon gave any indication of wanting to stay with the crew after this was all done, he'd be a lock. Luffy has even canonically invited him to join the crew. Well, his lower half anyway. It was certainly a memorable introduction.
I don't care for him at all, and he's been a "boring" choice from the getgo, but he's certainly put in the screen time and shared adventure count and gotten lots of quirks and little moments. Pretty much any raw screentime argument or "they heavily overlap with this other character but that's okay" for Carrot also applies to him.
Especially since Momo isn't actually his son that's not weighing him down. But he's been wanting to get back to Wano and his wife has been waiting 20 years for him and its hard to see him not staying when the dust is settled. Maybe, maybe he gets a Vivi bit of "I had a lot of fun with you guys and would enjoy travelling with you more, but…" for the most part I don't see any real effort being made to give that feel from him.
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Kinemon is a swordsman and one who isn't quite interesting enough to set himself apart from Brook and especially Zoro, who has already mastered Kin's main technique. He hardly seems worth bringing up.
Out of curiosity, let's say Yamato isn't the last crewmate, and the real one is also a swordsman. I think the only two styles that could still be unique is a sword and shield style, or wielding a big-ass sword like Guts' Dragonslayer or something.
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If Kinemon gave any indication of wanting to stay with the crew after this was all done, he'd be a lock. Luffy has even canonically invited him to join the crew. Well, his lower half anyway. It was certainly a memorable introduction.
I don't care for him at all, and he's been a "boring" choice from the getgo, but he's certainly put in the screen time and shared adventure count and gotten lots of quirks and little moments. Pretty much any raw screentime argument or "they heavily overlap with this other character but that's okay" for Carrot also applies to him.
Especially since Momo isn't actually his son that's not weighing him down. But he's been wanting to get back to Wano and his wife has been waiting 20 years for him and its hard to see him not staying when the dust is settled. Maybe, maybe he gets a Vivi bit of "I had a lot of fun with you guys and would enjoy travelling with you more, but…" for the most part I don't see any real effort being made to give that feel from him.
If you asked me, Kinemon always seemed to place Wano as his top priority and never seemed to waver away from that. He doesn't even seem to be set-up to have greater purpose alongside Luffy either, unlike with Yamato finishing the Joy Boy business Oden started. At most, he might get a moment of contemplation like Vivi's moment in deciding whether to go or stay though.
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That's my point. IF Kinemon gave ANY indication of wanting to stay with the crew after this was all done… but he hasn't. His goal has very consistently been Wano.
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He even had the 2.9 Devil fruit
But the wife I haven't seen in 20 years pretty much kills any chance of him joining
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Other characters in Wano that have met at least one of the Straw Hats and appeared before Yamato:
Kiku
Kawamatsu
Tama
Raizo
Hiyori
Hyogoro
Inuarashi
Denjiro
Shinobu
Nekomamushi
Izou
Drake
Toko
Onimaru
Tsuru
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Kinemon
Pros:
- Luffy asked his butt to join
- knows CLOTHES BEAM
- visually distinctive face
Cons
- Zoro has long filled his combat niche
- has shown no interest in going on a wider adventure after Wano (his butt has provided no comment)
- he kind of fades into the crowd when the other samurai are around
- has been clearly carved out of the Paulie Mold from the start
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His chances pretty much bottomed out the second we met our second samurai and it became clear they were all going to be going off old painting designs and such.
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This bugged me a bit, because I think we all owe ourselves a certain amount of courtesy in debates and accept opinions and theories in a speculative thread without throwing personal burdens of proof. The validity of these arguments will be dictated by Oda when time's due.
When it comes to Yamato and Carrot I admit my gut feeling is with Carrot for very personal reasons… namely that I'm less than enthusiastic about Yamato's prospects in the story and what the character represents in terms of overloaded symbolic weight in a series that seems already far too down the rabbit hole (pun absolutely intended) in that sense lately. I'm also not finding myself much of a fan of the character and their dynamics. Meanwhile Carrot is fun and has good chemistry with the SHs, sometimes it's just that I ask for.
It would be absurd to deny how well-positioned Yamato is in this "career" but I feel it's also something that depending on where the wind blows can run against their chances, particularly because this strong start has since found drawbacks. The relationship with Momo, which was non-existent, now it's a burden that needs to be resolved. The responsibility with Wano, which was only assumed as part of their identity as Oden, is now something that seems more compromising. Not just due to this guardian deity fruit, which after the latest developments on Luffy's awakened fruit I can only grow suspicions of, but because the more the narrative with Yamato advances it becomes clearer that they feel they owe something to Wano, and that something may be key to the character leaving with the Straw Hats or assuming another role. Those elements were not clearly present at the beginning and have since been introduced. I would dare say that Yamato, remaining a clear candidate, has gone from 100% "of course joining is the only possible way" to "let's see how these issues are resolved in their mind and then we can talk about next crewmate status".
If there's one thing that I feel is a double-edged sword in Carrot's narrative is her simplicity. What Oda is doing with her is hurting her chances every single week and I'm aware of that, defending that she would join in Wano is absurd specially with Yamato in the spotlight. But essentially, due to how has the character been written, this also means that Carrot doesn't need much else to join. She is basically accepted in the crew already. Does she need a tragic past, an elaborate dream, any of those absolute canon aspects every SH has in a checklist for us to make sense of it? Perhaps. Or perhaps she can just hop in there again and just follow the mood as she has been already very closely associated with the Straw Hats. If something like this happens, it won't make sense in theory, but it will make absolute narrative sense. And I'm hoping it just doesn't happen like that because like with every character I want lore and depth and specific motivations, but by not giving her focus lately Oda hasn't resolved or undone the previous focus either and that's an essential aspect to still make sense of her joining.
And then we can talk about theories and hints, but this is where my feelings stand at this point. Not denying the chances of Yamato, but I think the way the character has been treated makes them joining a long and complex journey, much more than it's often stated. After so many chapters there has been barely interaction with members of the crew and we are just speculating about their role or their running gag without much narrative basis to stand for. We don't even know if Yamato makes sense inside the crew, if you know what I mean. Carrot? The contrary. Not much focus, thrown to the side for so many chapters one only wonders if Oda forgot about her xD, but put her among the SHs and we all know what she offers in terms of interaction and being part of the dynamics, and she absolutely makes sense inside the crew. If Yamato joins and Carrot doesn't, it will be true to the current development and storytelling focus, but if the contrary happens it will seem as natural as breathing. If both or none become crewmates, the One Piece community will implode
I agree with all of this. Its really funny too, especially the last part, where Carrot is totally the opposite of Yamato, and Yamato the opposite of Carrot. This is why i also stick to my guns that both will join, and hell, perhaps even Momo.
As for why Carrot hasn't gotten any limelight in Wano, well, that is because she already had her stuff in WCI. Yamato gets this much screentime now, because its Wano. I just don't want to think too hard about this, hence why I have stopped making theories and speculations, and instead I'm just waiting to see how everything ends in the Wano Arc.
I don't choose sides for either Yamato or Carrot, but both, because I like both characters. And if only one of the two ends up joining, of which it seems to be pointing very heavily to Yamato now, well, yeah, I'm cool with it.
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When was the last time a Straw Hat completely faded into the background after being in the limelight, despite being physically present?
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I think there is a lot of confusion between "what i'd like to happen" and "what i think it's going to happen".
There's no discussion to be had about "i'd like more if Carrot joined than if Yamato did", it's completely legitimate and doesn't need to be explained or "proved".
But once the discussion is about predicting what wil happen anybody partaking in it should at least use elements from the text to uphold what they're sayin AND not ignore the counterarguments also based in the text others make.I for one never liked Jimbe joining the crew, for a long number of reasons. Also I never doubted he was going to join, because the story was clearly building up to that. At best i hoped it wouldn't happen, but i expected it to happen.
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I think there is a lot of confusion between "what i'd like to happen" and "what i think it's going to happen".
There's no discussion to be had about "i'd like more if Carrot joined than if Yamato did", it's completely legitimate and doesn't need to be explained or "proved".
But once the discussion is about predicting what wil happen anybody partaking in it should at least use elements from the text to uphold what they're sayin AND not ignore the counterarguments also based in the text others make.I for one never liked Jimbe joining the crew, for a long number of reasons. Also I never doubted he was going to join, because the story was clearly building up to that. At best i hoped it wouldn't happen, but i expected it to happen.
That's okay, I don't intend to discuss gut feeling and preference. But on the matter of prediction, we can interpret the text as a checklist or as just the natural flow of events and both can result in a viable candidate. Yamato is the strongest candidate right now, with the focus, the tragic past, the specific declarations and etc. But the scenario of Carrot jumping into the Sunny again and going "hey it's fun with you guys I want more adventure!" is still something one doesn't need a strong level of abstraction to visualize, no matter how many chapters she's been off focus, no matter how thin her overall character arc is. It happened before and there's a history of bonding and associating with the SHs. Like I often see this argument that Carrot is like Vivi because she's a temporary passenger and not an actual permanent crewmate. It may be true, but what is also true is that if Vivi wanted to join the crew again she would be accepted with no hesitation, because the character bonded with the SHs and spent time with them. We are at this point with Carrot. She could leave or she could stay, and you can't say it doesn't make sense or that she is not worthy as a candidate because she doesn't fill whatever random checklist.
Anyway, do not mistake stating my preferences with being skeptical of the thorough analytical (AKA "checklist") approach to next crewmate discussions. Those are two different statements, both I stand for but for very different reasons.
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Maybe, maybe he gets a Vivi bit of "I had a lot of fun with you guys and would enjoy travelling with you more, but…" for the most part I don't see any real effort being made to give that feel from him.
I wish this was the set up for him instead of being pervert #3 and being shoved into the background having his own parallel adventure for three arcs.
I hope we at least get a goodbye that acknowledges Kin'emon and Momo's time with the crew, that doesn't lump them together with all the other samurai and Wano characters. More like "it was fun travelling with you" instead of "thanks for saving Wano". Something to show a personal bond.
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Kinemon declared that Luffy will be the pirate king. That scene was pretty cool.
Of course he's not joining though -
Before Wano began, I remember how excited readers were for Wano in terms of introducing cool characters like ninja/shinobi that could potentially be the best shot at a next nakama after Jinbe. Whenever Kin'emon would mention ninjas, it always got readers excited for them. Like during the Dressrosa Arc when Kin'emon was impressed by Viola and inquired if she was a ninja. Zou came and went and with the Wano story on its way to concluding, the expectations generated for the ninja have been tragically dashed. None of the ninja introduced in Wano, even the antagonist, were anything special or memorable. Raizo and Fukurokuju's battle was fought with both of them being still for the majority of the focus they got in the battle which was largely off-screen. It could have at least been more dynamic for a ninja battle!
Such a pity the reality didn't live up to the hype. It is clear at this point that ninja aren't going to be significant to the overall story and developed in meaningful ways. Once the Wano Arc is concluded, we may not see any ninja again until Raizo or Shinobu return into focus. I hope that one of the families that left Wano before the borders closed (like Toki's family - the Amatsuki clan) were a clan/group of ninjas so that Oda could have another crack at presenting the ninja (maybe they could be members of the Fugetsu or Uzuki clans).
I know Oda and Kishimoto are good friends, so Oda didn't want to tread on grounds Naruto already walked on but I find it a tragic shame that he didn't at least attempt to entertain the idea of a ninja nakama candidate. Even if he was never going to have a ninja join the crew, at least throw a red-herring to the readers to distract them and foster imagination. The two named ninja allies we got in Wano were Raizo and Shinobu. Their stories didn't deviate in the slightest toward the Straw Hat Pirates and amuse the possibility that they could be future Straw Hat Pirate candidates. I would have loved to entertain ideas about a potential nakama candidate that was a ninja. Luffy himself was immensely stimulated by the existence of ninjas.
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I miss the days when I was still excited by ninjas in One Piece… -
If Carrot stows away or just hops on board at the end of Wano I'd like to see her acknowledge that she has learned the same lesson the Straw Hats learned the hard way on Sabaody, and in a way Usopp specifically in Water 7. Traveling across the New World is not the fun day trip she thought it would be and she paid dearly with the loss of a close friend. There is a certain minimum level of strength anyone who hopes to survive the latter half of the Grand Line should have without having to rely on either others to protect them, or powers that are bound to conditions they can't influence. That was the entire point of the timeskip, it wasn't just Luffy gaining the strength to protect his crewmates, but all of them bringing the bare minimum to the table. And even then you have to be fully aware of the risks and prepared to face them. It's serious business that can and will cost people lives.
They're not just playing pirates. Visiting other islands is not something you can just do with the knowledge you'll return home safe and sound. And for me personally, I need to see Carrot say as much before I accept her on board. -
Before Wano began, I remember how excited readers were for Wano in terms of introducing cool characters like ninja/shinobi that could potentially be the best shot at a next nakama after Jinbe. Whenever Kin'emon would mention ninjas, it always got readers excited for them. Like during the Dressrosa Arc when Kin'emon was impressed by Viola and inquired if she was a ninja. Zou came and went and with the Wano story on its way to concluding, the expectations generated for the ninja have been tragically dashed. None of the ninja introduced in Wano, even the antagonist, were anything special or memorable. Raizo and Fukurokuju's battle was fought with both of them being still for the majority of the focus they got in the battle which was largely off-screen. It could have at least been more dynamic for a ninja battle!
Such a pity the reality didn't live up to the hype. It is clear at this point that ninja aren't going to be significant to the overall story and developed in meaningful ways. Once the Wano Arc is concluded, we may not see any ninja again until Raizo or Shinobu return into focus. I hope that one of the families that left Wano before the borders closed (like Toki's family - the Amatsuki clan) were a clan/group of ninjas so that Oda could have another crack at presenting the ninja (maybe they could be members of the Fugetsu or Uzuki clans).
I know Oda and Kishimoto are good friends, so Oda didn't want to tread on grounds Naruto already walked on but I find it a tragic shame that he didn't at least attempt to entertain the idea of a ninja nakama candidate. Even if he was never going to have a ninja join the crew, at least throw a red-herring to the readers to distract them and foster imagination. The two named ninja allies we got in Wano were Raizo and Shinobu. Their stories didn't deviate in the slightest toward the Straw Hat Pirates and amuse the possibility that they could be future Straw Hat Pirate candidates. I would have loved to entertain ideas about a potential nakama candidate that was a ninja. Luffy himself was immensely stimulated by the existence of ninjas.
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I miss the days when I was still excited by ninjas in One Piece…I was pretty entertained as usual, so I'm not sure what people were expecting from ninjas, let alone from a pirate manga anyway. lol
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I was pretty entertained as usual, so I'm not sure what people were expecting from ninjas, let alone from a pirate manga anyway. lol
I guess they wanted cool/strong ninjas like in naruto. _I for one am completely fine with ninjas taking a backseat to samurai in one piece. It never felt right to me that ninjas would lord over samurai; something I disliked about naruto.
Raizo and Shinobu are great though. I got a good laugh the chapter Raizo made his appearance- peak one piece comedy._
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I guess they wanted cool/strong ninjas like in naruto. _I for one am completely fine with ninjas taking a backseat to samurai in one piece. It never felt right to me that ninjas would lord over samurai; something I disliked about naruto.
Raizo and Shinobu are great though. I got a good laugh the chapter Raizo made his appearance- peak one piece comedy._
Conversely, I never hear pirates in Naruto like Gataro spoken with much fanfare either, so fair enough. lol
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Ninjas were "hyped up" in the story of One Piece through Oda's continuous reminders they exist, Luffy's reactions and even Franky's statement. Raizo and Shinobu are fine but what the ninja lacked were balanced and adequate focus. The character doesn't necessarily have to be badass but they do need to have moments that highlight their character and abilities. I love Buggy and consider him one of Oda's best characters. He is completely memorable. I don't believe this is the case for any One Piece ninja.
The fact that the Ninja Pirate Mink Samurai Alliance exist conveys how the four groups were elevated to the same level yet 2 of the 4 groups got shafted - Ninja and Mink. Is anyone really happy with how the Ninja and Mink were treated as background characters during the raid on Onigashima? Would you really not have preferred the ninja and Mink be more an on-screen feature during the arc? I for one would have loved more dynamic ninja fights, especially between Raizo and Fukurokuju beyond just standing there. Raizo and Shinobu also possessing Devil Fruits does to an extent take away from their imagery as ninja. I can accept this though as Devil Fruits are a central power in the One Piece world and the Fruits were themed after ninja powers (kind of). Orochi's elite ninja squad, the Oniwabanshu, weren't even that impacting. The majority of them were taken out off screen or in one panel. The relevance of the group peaked at their introduction when they caught Robin investigating.
When the alliance formed, it was expected that all the factions would be important but when Oda features the majority of the ninja and Mink efforts during the raid in the background, it is hard not to conclude that Oda considers them less important to the other parties in the alliance which in turn does snuff out the enthusiasm one had (speaking for myself). Oda's writing tells us the ninja and Mink aren't that important to warrant screen time which consequently reduces the interest and excitement I have for such characters. The emotional substance generating attachment just isn't there. I would love to embrace the presentation of the ninja and Mink during the Onigashima raid wholeheartedly but it felt so half-baked that all I am left with is sadness at how underutilized and minor (relative to their set up) such factions were.
I don't see Oda giving the ninja significant time to feature going forward. I get that the Wano arc is bloated and excessively long but Oda chose to remove focus away from the ninja (and Mink). There is a reason Jack felt so underwhelming relative to the treatment Queen and King got especially when Jack was set-up to be really important and was the first billion dollar bounty revealed in story.
@electricmastro Who is Gataro? Did he appear in the Naruto manga? I don't remember him at all.
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I mean, pretty much every samurai except for Zoro's grandpa looks like a goofball, too. Oden's supposed to be the best one ever and he's an idiot with a stupid haircut and doesn't wear pants.
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I think most of the samurai don’t wear pants..
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If Kinemon had showed any interest in Oden's musings about Dawn's of the world or Joyboy along with opening Wano's borders and secede Momo to the throne then he'd definitely be the next crewmate and
Zoro probably wouldn't have showed the capability to master fox fire style. That's the rub with Yamato, she's not just finishing what Oden started, she's doubling down like Pedro did when he went on his own expedition. She doesn't wanna only hear about the new dawn, she wants to witness it mad max fury road style.Oda made sure to drive this point home by making Oden's Journal pass on his message and legacy to Yamato posthumous. He didn't need to be physically there for Yamato to be impacted greatly. From the moment we hear about and finally see him, Oden is described as being larger than life and yes even death.
Her first words ever read were Oden's.
Kinemon just wasn't given that type of intricate detail put into his character.
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When was the last time a Straw Hat completely faded into the background after being in the limelight, despite being physically present?
Chopper, Usopp, Brook… hell I could argue Nami and Robin.
As for ninja, I'm sorry to say but both Raizou and Shinobu don't look merchandise-able. Maybe if it was Shinobu in her prime days. My point is, they look too ugly lmao, which is really telling if you place them alongside the traditionally handsome Zoro or Sanji, the cuteness of Luffy and Chopper, and the pretty Nami and Robin.
Which is why ppl tend to gravitate towards character with cool/cute/pretty design like Carrot, Yamato or back then we had Paulie.
"No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.." - Venat
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I honestly think Oda doesn't get enough credit as crazy as it sounds. His balancing act of developing the original crew members like Sanji and Zoro has been brilliant. Good chunk of the story and completely conquering the sea and finding one piece surrounds Robin and her knowledge so I think there's more to come. We still don't know what Country Brook was Royal Guard in. Ussop hasn't met his Father yet.
There's a lot pending for the main cast. Even simple things like Koala and Jinbe reunited seems intriguing.
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This is quite amazing actually. Kinemon has interacted with Luffy and the others at Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, Zou, and Wano, having been around since 2012, and all of that evidently hasn't been enough for anyone here to gain considerable interest in him joining the crew. That along with Robin's panels with Crocodile and Franky's lack of "bonding" with Luffy before the Thousand Sunny definitely go to show panel juxtaposition isn't everything when winning people over. lol
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Ninjas were "hyped up" in the story of One Piece through Oda's continuous reminders they exist, Luffy's reactions and even Franky's statement. Raizo and Shinobu are fine but what the ninja lacked were balanced and adequate focus. The character doesn't necessarily have to be badass but they do need to have moments that highlight their character and abilities. I love Buggy and consider him one of Oda's best characters. He is completely memorable. I don't believe this is the case for any One Piece ninja.
The fact that the Ninja Pirate Mink Samurai Alliance exist conveys how the four groups were elevated to the same level yet 2 of the 4 groups got shafted - Ninja and Mink. Is anyone really happy with how the Ninja and Mink were treated as background characters during the raid on Onigashima? Would you really not have preferred the ninja and Mink be more an on-screen feature during the arc? I for one would have loved more dynamic ninja fights, especially between Raizo and Fukurokuju beyond just standing there. Raizo and Shinobu also possessing Devil Fruits does to an extent take away from their imagery as ninja. I can accept this though as Devil Fruits are a central power in the One Piece world and the Fruits were themed after ninja powers (kind of). Orochi's elite ninja squad, the Oniwabanshu, weren't even that impacting. The majority of them were taken out off screen or in one panel. The relevance of the group peaked at their introduction when they caught Robin investigating.
When the alliance formed, it was expected that all the factions would be important but when Oda features the majority of the ninja and Mink efforts during the raid in the background, it is hard not to conclude that Oda considers them less important to the other parties in the alliance which in turn does snuff out the enthusiasm one had (speaking for myself). Oda's writing tells us the ninja and Mink aren't that important to warrant screen time which consequently reduces the interest and excitement I have for such characters. The emotional substance generating attachment just isn't there. I would love to embrace the presentation of the ninja and Mink during the Onigashima raid wholeheartedly but it felt so half-baked that all I am left with is sadness at how underutilized and minor (relative to their set up) such factions were.
I don't see Oda giving the ninja significant time to feature going forward. I get that the Wano arc is bloated and excessively long but Oda chose to remove focus away from the ninja (and Mink). There is a reason Jack felt so underwhelming relative to the treatment Queen and King got especially when Jack was set-up to be really important and was the first billion dollar bounty revealed in story.
@electricmastro Who is Gataro? Did he appear in the Naruto manga? I don't remember him at all.
The specific ninja you have in mind is still coming, aged-up Tama! :ninja:
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To be honest prior to Wano, I found Kin'emon and Momonosuke to be annoying. All the secrets and distrust the Samurai had toward the Straw Hat Pirates which stretched over years until Zou was entered didn't help readers react favorable to them. Even after the intentions of the Samurai were revealed, it took more years (after the Whole Cake Island Arc) for that story thread to begin moving again. I presume this is why Kin'emon, Momonosuke and the other Samurai introduced before Wano didn't fare too well in the character popularity poll. They didn't have a platform to be featured on adequately before Wano. After the Punk Hazard Arc and before Wano, Kin'emon and the other Akazaya Samurai barely featured in fights. Patience toward these characters had been exhausted and interest naturally waned.
As a result of keeping the Samurai in the background, quality focus on them just wasn't possible and this is part of the reason why many didn't get behind Kin'emon being a potential Straw Hat Candidate.
Regardless, I am grateful to the Wano Arc for helping elevate Kin'emon and Momonosuke into very likeable characters that will conclude the Wano Arc as solid characters. During the Wano Arc when Onigashima was entered (after Oden's flashback), I found myself genuinely excited to see their stories progress.
I still wonder who that Samurai (?) that met Crocus in the chapter 631 cover page is. Are they even relevant? Considering they wear a kasa, I assume they have some association with Wano.
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Also I fell in love with Oden's hair style during his flashback. What a giga chad.The specific ninja you have in mind is still coming, aged-up Tama! :ninja:
I will give you that. If Tama is destined to be a ninja, she is primed to be an exciting one.
In terms of just focus received, I have enjoyed Tama and the bravery she displayed.
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Chopper, Usopp, Brook… hell I could argue Nami and Robin.
What are you talking about lol, none of them disappeared into the background
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I agree with Coookie. Any Straw Hat Pirate, before or after joining, when physically present in the specific arc, were actively doing things and part of the focus.
Carrot's presentation is uncharacteristic of a main character. Aside from Robin, Franky and Jinbe, most Straw Hat Pirates became part of the crew in the arcs they were introduced in (Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper and Brook). In all the arcs leading up to Robin, Franky and Jinbe'ss recruitment which they were featured in, they were always important. In Franky's case, the Water 7 and Enies Lobby arcs were handled together with Franky being important in both arcs - the two arcs told one story.
With Robin, she was part of the antagonist group in the Whisky Peak and Alabasta arcs she featured in. As for Jinbe, whenever Jinbe was present in an arc whether it be the Impel Down, Marineford, Post War, Fishman Island or Whole Cake Island, he was a focal character. At no time during the arcs Jinbe was present in did Oda allow him, a future Straw Hat Pirate, to fade into the background. Further, Oda even incorporated Jinbe into the Dressrosa Arc through his cover story that ran from chapter 751-785. These chapters which Jinbe had his cover story in contained many of the best moments in the Dressrosa Arc - Law's flashback, the defeat of the Donquixote Pirate Officers/members and Luffy's Gear 4 reveal. Oda was actively trying to keep Jinbe within the memory of the readers. This is why many were passionate that Jinbe was a lock for joining the crew before the Whole Cake Island and Wano Arcs came around.
From my perspective, I cannot see the same care and effort being presented in the manner Oda is handling Carrot's story. What exactly was/is her role in the Wano Arc? Does she even know what the Straw Hat Pirates are fighting for? I always found it weird Oda never had Carrot present during the formation of the Ninja Pirate Mink Samurai Alliance as it prevented her from knowing what the war about to be waged in Wano was about. Carrot never even inquired what the Straw Hat Pirates were working toward. And it is this lack of interest coupled with her lack of attachment to the important story threads of One Piece that give me pause when considering Carrot as a potential Straw Hat Pirate member.
For most of the Wano Arc, Carrot was a tag along but when she did get her chance to be proactive, it was to detach herself from the core fight for Wano. Carrot moved away from fighting for Wano and toward attempting to avenge Pedro. If Carrot understood the importance of the war, she would have remained within the Performance Floor and assisted in the many battles going on there i.e. alleviate the burden on the Straw Hat Pirates. Ultimately, Carrot and Wanda's presence near the entrance of Onigashima's Castle was helpful as it assisted Marco who in turn changed the flow of the war but that was through coincidence rather than intention. Based on the subsequent focus Carrot has received since engaging Perospero, I don't believe Carrot understands the relevance and meaning of the war she is fighting in. Back when Pedro was still around, she was informed why the Straw Hat Pirates were fighting but with him now gone, she has shown a total disinterest in the relevance behind what the Straw Hat Pirates are doing. Carrot had the opportunity to question the Straw Hat Pirates or Inuarashi or the other Mink about Pedro's final words to her but it hasn't been shown that she has and based on her actions during the Onigashima raid, it doesn't appear she did. Carrot gaining some understanding of Pedro's words will likely happen in the future though but will this happen before the Straw Hat Pirates leave Wano?
Within the arc that is setting up the New Generation of characters that will define the coming era, it is significantly detrimental toward Carrot's case of being a main character (Straw Hat Pirate) to not have active focus while physical present during the events transpiring. I understand Carrot is an important character and she will get payoff to the set up laid down for her but I cannot, no matter how I twist and turn my interpretation of how she has been presented by Oda conclude that enough has been done to see her as a main character. I don't believe a reasonable person would conclude at this point in time that Carrot has been presented as a main character by Oda.
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If Carrot stows away or just hops on board at the end of Wano I'd like to see her acknowledge that she has learned the same lesson the Straw Hats learned the hard way on Sabaody, and in a way Usopp specifically in Water 7. Traveling across the New World is not the fun day trip she thought it would be and she paid dearly with the loss of a close friend. There is a certain minimum level of strength anyone who hopes to survive the latter half of the Grand Line should have without having to rely on either others to protect them, or powers that are bound to conditions they can't influence. That was the entire point of the timeskip, it wasn't just Luffy gaining the strength to protect his crewmates, but all of them bringing the bare minimum to the table. And even then you have to be fully aware of the risks and prepared to face them. It's serious business that can and will cost people lives.
They're not just playing pirates. Visiting other islands is not something you can just do with the knowledge you'll return home safe and sound. And for me personally, I need to see Carrot say as much before I accept her on board.That's an absolutely fair point, but also a bit moot? Why should Carrot not acknowledge the seriousness of the situation when she has witnessed and suffered it, fought two yonkou armies and lost Pedro? I think people mistake a lively and fun-loving personality with being completely tone-deaf, and I don't think Carrot is written like that… Anymore, anyway. Maybe at the beginning of the journey toward WC and that made some sense. Also, she's a trained fighter, maybe we don't know how to put her on a power scale exactly and we can have doubts about that "bare minimum", but she's more thoroughly prepared than a number of SHs for fighting.
Speaking of the bare minimum though, I don't think it's a good argument even if there is a level of legitimate doubt on how she can perform. Because we don't know how much she can handle, and because Oda is not the kind of author that sets base levels perfectly at every point in the story. Basically when facing a strong opponent she would outperform herself like every character does, it doesn't make much sense to try and discuss whether she is "not strong enough" to join because in this series joining the crew is not a standard of strength. Reminder that Vivi left the crew because she wanted to stay as a princess for her country, not because she wasn't strong enough.
@Syphin I do not think there is one single type of "main character" in the series, as you yourself analyze, so this talk about being "uncharacteristic" doesn't tell me much. Fundamentally, Robin and Jinbe do not share the scheme other SHs had. But also, this talk is dynamic and depends on the status of the character at the moment. You could say that Robin was an important character, but even as part of the antagonist team, she was second to Crocodile all the time. She was that mysterious character that in a couple scenes had proved to be something more, but also the plot was: Crocodile did this, Crocodile did that, we must defeat Crocodile. Oda ended up getting those sporadic hints from Robin and using them to build a main character, but till she joined, she absolutely wasn't one and also wasn't narratively pointed to be.
Anyway, speaking of Carrot, Wano is clearly a low performance for her, so I remain quiet and hoping for better times to come
. Your analysis is quite spot on in my opinion, at least for the current state and the clear detriment her side role in Wano is being, it's just that I find this "uncharacteristic of a main character" bit about her overall character arc a bit nebulous in a series that doesn't have one clear guideline on how to make a main character. -
That's an absolutely fair point, but also a bit moot? Why should Carrot not acknowledge the seriousness of the situation when she has witnessed and suffered it, fought two yonkou armies and lost Pedro? I think people mistake a lively and fun-loving personality with being completely tone-deaf, and I don't think Carrot is written like that… Anymore, anyway. Maybe at the beginning of the journey toward WC and that made some sense. Also, she's a trained fighter, maybe we don't know how to put her on a power scale exactly and we can have doubts about that "bare minimum", but she's more thoroughly prepared than a number of SHs for fighting.
Speaking of the bare minimum though, I don't think it's a good argument even if there is a level of legitimate doubt on how she can perform. Because we don't know how much she can handle, and because Oda is not the kind of author that sets base levels perfectly at every point in the story. Basically when facing a strong opponent she would outperform herself like every character does, it doesn't make much sense to try and discuss whether she is "not strong enough" to join because in this series joining the crew is not a standard of strength. Reminder that Vivi left the crew because she wanted to stay as a princess for her country, not because she wasn't strong enough.
You speak as if it's completely self-evident that Carrot will acknowledge as much when it isn't. Yes she has been forced to make these traumatic experiences which would naturally lead someone to this realization, but actually saying it out loud and admitting one's own weaknesses is still an additional step that not everybody would be willing to make. I wasn't saying that I expect her to not acknowledge it and just hop on board, nor do I think Carrot is tone-deaf, independent of her usual upbeat personality. I also wasn't questioning her strength to face the upcoming waters, I brought up the timeskip as an example of people thinking they can just waltz on without a worry in the world until people far stronger than them beat them back to the bottom of reason, which is pretty much what happened to Carrot. The Straw Hats realized that they need to step up their game and that there are many greater foes lurking ahead, and I want to see that same realization from Carrot if she is to join. I would absolutely hate if we just get a repeat of the end of Zou where she just emerges from within the Sunny, thinking she is leaving for a fun little adventure but this time with a few more clothes on hand. Give her the development she very desperately needs.
Regarding other Straw Hats compared to whom Carrot is more prepared for fighting (namely the Coward Trio): Nami just got an upgrade which still had to make up for her own shortcomings by helping her hit the target, and Usopp and Chopper both should also have realized that they're falling behind again. I expect those three to get more powerups in the arcs before Laugh Tale. Meanwhile Sulong is still such a huge conditional powerup that Oda can't constantly write around, so this would need a solution as well.
The Vivi part is a strawman argument and I don't get the relevance
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You speak as if it's completely self-evident that Carrot will acknowledge as much when it isn't. Yes she has been forced to make these traumatic experiences which would naturally lead someone to this realization, but actually saying it out loud and admitting one's own weaknesses is still an additional step that not everybody would be willing to make. I wasn't saying that I expect her to not acknowledge it and just hop on board, nor do I think Carrot is tone-deaf, independent of her usual upbeat personality. I also wasn't questioning her strength to face the upcoming waters, I brought up the timeskip as an example of people thinking they can just waltz on without a worry in the world until people far stronger than them beat them back to the bottom of reason, which is pretty much what happened to Carrot. The Straw Hats realized that they need to step up their game and that there are many greater foes lurking ahead, and I want to see that same realization from Carrot if she is to join. I would absolutely hate if we just get a repeat of the end of Zou where she just emerges from within the Sunny but this time with a few more clothes on hand. Give her the development she very desperately needs.
Regarding other Straw Hats compared to whom Carrot is more prepared for fighting (namely the Coward Trio): Nami just got an upgrade which still had to make up for her own shortcomings by helping her hit the target, and Usopp and Chopper both should also have realized that they're falling behind again. I expect those three to get more powerups in the arcs before Laugh Tale. Meanwhile Sulong is still such a huge conditional powerup that Oda can't constantly write around, so this would need a solution as well.
The Vivi part is a strawman argument and I don't get the relevance
I say that because this point is framed in a way that Carrot, maybe for being how she is, needs to prove something that we assume most other characters go through eventually, when I don't find much of a grounded reason to doubt that she can 1. meet that bare minimum and 2. face things seriously. And I think this has to do with her personality, which is shared by a number of characters. So yes, it is a fair point you have here but I assume she will like everybody in the series has (this is also regardless of joining the crew or not). That's why I find it a bit moot.
The Vivi argument is relevant for the "bare minimum" part, and it's not a strawman, it's a statement on how in universe if somebody wanted to join the crew they wouldn't be checking their strength. Please do not start getting into dumb fallacy pointing because I intend to keep the discussion civil and those tactics are the worst for that.
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Ninjas were "hyped up" in the story of One Piece through Oda's continuous reminders they exist, Luffy's reactions and even Franky's statement. Raizo and Shinobu are fine but what the ninja lacked were balanced and adequate focus. The character doesn't necessarily have to be badass but they do need to have moments that highlight their character and abilities. I love Buggy and consider him one of Oda's best characters. He is completely memorable. I don't believe this is the case for any One Piece ninja.
Buggy is one of One Piece's 15 best characters in my opinion. I don't think it's much of an insult to say none of the ninjas are on his level. For the record, I do think Raizo is a great character who really stood out as a character in Zou, and as a fighter against Kaido.
The specific ninja you have in mind is still coming, aged-up Tama! :ninja:
I wish, but to my knowledge, Oda has never demonstrated her actually training to be a ninja or displaying any kunoichi skills. Even though I missed that Shinobu's devil fruit would age Momo up, it itched in my head more than a year ago that Oda would do such a thing because of how he'd been presenting Momo. I thought this was because he would join (and I think I was wrong), but the point is that I haven't seen him put in the same work for Tama. Those panels with Momo are so deliberately placed to set up the expectation that it's hard to see him not do the same thing with Tama. I would love her to join, but it would be a big surprise to me if it actually happened.
Oda is typically deliberate, though also sort of unpredictable. That's the most interesting part of all this. An editor mentioned that they didn't know when Oda came up with Yamato. More than ever before, he's playing with us and our expectations, built up over decades, regarding how a crewmate is presented. From that viewpoint, I've started thinking that Oda's somewhat abrupt introduction to Yamato was intentional to that effect. If Yamato was introduced before Onigashima, it would be very obvious. I still don't love Yamato, but I think I get it, assuming I'm correct about Oda's intentions.
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I say that because this point is framed in a way that Carrot, maybe for being how she is, needs to prove something that we assume most other characters go through eventually, when I don't find much of a grounded reason to doubt that she can 1. meet that bare minimum and 2. face things seriously. And I think this has to do with her personality, which is shared by a number of characters. So yes, it is a fair point you have here but I assume she will like everybody in the series has (this is also regardless of joining the crew or not). That's why I find it a bit moot.
But that's exactly the thing. I don't want to just assume she learned her lesson. I want it out there with no room left for doubt. I want to see that character development and not have it just be implied. As a character who's sorely lacking in that regard it's the most obvious choice to expand upon. And again, the point is that >I personally< >want< to see that, not that it's any requirement that needs to be met before she joins. If she joins without that happening it's something I personally have to deal with.
The Vivi argument is relevant for the "bare minimum" part, and it's not a strawman, it's a statement on how in universe if somebody wanted to join the crew they wouldn't be checking their strength. Please do not start getting into dumb fallacy pointing because I intend to keep the discussion civil and those tactics are the worst for that.
As I've said before, I wasn't questioning if her strength is good enough for the Straw Hats or that a lack thereof would be a reason to keep her from joining, so yes it is a strawman argument because that doesn't address a point I made.
