That's a meta level look on things. We have yet to see anyone within the world itself state "his role on the crew is swordsman". It's just like with how everybody refers to the worst generation as Supernovas even though this title was never used in the actual world itself. It only appears on the chapter title and in databooks.
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)
-
-
I agree, he's first mate in all but name. But he explicitly does NOT have that position named.
To be fair, Urouge called him First Mate on Sabaody…
https://manga4life.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-499-page-16.html:ninja:
-
To be fair, Urouge called him First Mate on Sabaody…
https://manga4life.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-499-page-16.html:ninja:
That's a translation issue. In the japanese original, he just says Zoro's the second strongest.
–----------------
I'd like to point out that real-world pirates had different hierarchies per crew, and 1st Mate/Vice-captain weren't that common. Rather, the most common configuration was that of Captain/Quartermaster, in which Captain decided destinations and battle tactics, while the Quartermaster was responsible for the daily routines and punishments in the ship. Under that idea, Zoro and Sanji are like second and third battlemasters under the captain, while Nami's more like the Quartermaster.
-
@'T€:
@$;4178716']Please get Yamato's profession right. She is a Sake brewer. The title of Chapter 999 "The Sake I Brewed waiting for you". The chapter is about Yamato waiting for Luffy.
Also note how the Straw Hat Crew had to steal booze to celebrate Jinbe coming back. This is the perfect foreshadowing of a Sake brewer.After Yamato, Raizo joins as the Lookout. Reasons:
1. Unique Design.
2. Great fighting Style.
3. All Men love Ninja including Luffy and his crew.
4. Luffy was damn impressed with Raizo.
5. Raizo was the central focus of Zou arc
6. Getting lots of focus and saved everyone from the fire.
7. His fight with Fukurukuju was highlighted similar to SH fights.
8. Ugliness and being unpopular with Women is his quirk.
9. Is an expert Ninja, perfect for a Lookout. Note that all the SHs are exceptionally good at their ship roles.You know as much as I don't think it'll happen, I can appreciate both these skills.
I mean… Raizos scroll ability would have come in really handy during dozens of moments throughout the past. As for brewer, I like the idea of Yamamoto making Sake, but also some kind of super cola for franky and the ship (though not at all essential).
It seems you conveniently missed when I addressed that point earlier in the thread. Here you go:
I didn't continue to address this, because we are going around in circles (on this and a few other points), with nothing yet in the chapters to swing the debate and break the deadlock. I'll go back to points as and when we get more information. > I don't know and it's not my job to come up with something. Would you have guessed at the start of the series that we will need an archaeologist at some point? I doubt it. Nobody could have guessed this prior to the introduction of the Poneglyphs, and the hidden history of the series. But its still fair for me to ask you what role you expect Yamato to fill, when you've already stated that they will likely have one.
You're mistaken. In every single volume his role is listed as the crew's combatant in English or 戦闘員 (sentouin) in the original Japanese, directly translating to combatant/fighter. Oda even backpedaled about the whole number 2 thing of the recent color spread in volume 102's SBS.
I didn't know that. I always figured Oda was creating a parallel between the SH and Roger pirates, with Rayleigh being first mate. It's not the first time this has happened either.
If only they had a giant elephant guard dog at their front door, have their new shogun be a literal copy of Kaido's abilities, and could leave the borders of their natural fortress closed until they're back on their feet. Oh well.
We still don't have Zunishas backstory to know what direction their role will be, especially now that Joyboy is back.
Whitebeard's territories were up for grabs because he left a power vacuum until Blackbeard was able to fill it.
Blackbeard didn't fill an empty slot, he took those territories after fighting Marco. You assume this will play out like fishmen island, when it's been the only example we've seen to date (With Luffy assuming power). This doesn't even take into consideration that Wano would be associated to a pirate when opening up a country to the world stage, something even Kaido didn't try.
Luffy was already announced as the Fifth Emperor and will have defeated the strongest creature alive. There is no power vacuum for others to fill. And even if there were, I don't think you honestly believe that Yamato alone is either enough deterrent for people to not try (almost nobody even knows about him), or that the Wanoese population will take one look at the son of the person who co-tormented the country for 20 years, who coincidentally has an identity issue and calls himself Kozuki Oden, and immediately go "good enough, we're safe now".
I think the country will look to Momonosuke for this, with the guidance and support of Yamato to make it happen.
Experience is the deciding factor between Luffy getting defeated by Caesar Clown in their first round and completely dominating him in the second. Ignoring 20 years of experience is a foolish endeavor, just like powerscaling. But you could use the same argument that Kaido had experience fighting Yamato, therefore nullifying the skill offset. So the point still stands that Yamato has been shown to be stronger than the scabbards.
It wouldn't make sense to make an entire country's survival dependent on one capable person, especially when Wano gained a new guard dog who's happy to follow Momo's commandsYou do realise Zunisha is over 20miles high. I mean…. if this was the answer to everything, we would see it swatting the beast pirates, putting out the fire and moving the island as we speak. > I have replied to everything you said so far. Try me. Give me other great examples of what Yamato can do that no one else can. Relaying the story of Oden, the history of Wano under Kaido, the use of Momonosukes abilities and offering mental and physical support. Again its a role that nobody else comes even close to filling, and has shown to be necessary within the latter part of this war alone.
Vivi always had saving Alabasta, her own country of which she is the princess, as her top priority and only ambition. Yamato has wished to go on adventures and experience the wide world for two decades now but can't because for one he has been imprisoned all this time, and because Wano doesn't allow people to leave. Getting Wano to open the borders is just a necessary step he needs to make, just like Nami couldn't go out and follow her dream as long as Arlong was holding Coco Village hostage, or how Jimbei was tied to Big Mom and had to properly cut his ties with her first.
Reopening the country to the world means having a shogun who changes this law of isolation and allows people to come and go. Kicking Kaido out of Wano takes away Orochi's muscle with which he usurped the title, enabling Momo to claim his rightful place and see his father's will become reality.So really the argument being made is that Yamato wants to join, but can't until the ambition to open Wano is met. And I can appreciate that, because we've seen this take place with some of the crew already.
Where we disagree then will be how this is actually achieved, because I think this action isn't just a sudden declaration by Momonosuke to the populace of Wano. I also don't think this is something that will even be addressed while the country is in ruins. Can you imagine Momonosuke just glazing over the starvation on the streets to focus on foreign policy hehe.
The Akazaya have all undergone the same education and training to become Wano's Guardian Deities, as per Yasuie's instructions. There are only five regions other than the Flower Capital and Onigashima to staff with Daimyos. Take away Inuarashi, Nekomamushi and Kanjuro and we're still left with six Akazaya. Shinobu is an Akazaya in spirit, Izo might stay in Wano as well, Hiyori is also there. Plenty of people to go around.
We can't exactly say the numbers don't work, when some of the scabbards might need to continue other roles. Denjiro leading the Yakuza is a good example of this. We've also not been shown any other replacement Daimyo in the series beyond Hygoro (in his 70's) and he other Yakuza bosses.
Have we seen other people like Kuina being referred to as samurai simply because they wielded katanas and had the appropriate heritage?
When did we even get enough page space to flesh out this reality. I mean the same logic can be applied to Koshiro and any other person in Shimotsuki village training in the Dojo/Katana. > Now I'm out on a limb here because Stephen's Japanese is far beyond mine. In Japanese Kawamatsu says
「リューマ」が隻眼の侍であった事も含め, or word for word "Ryuma (subject of sentence) one-eyed (descriptive particle) samurai was thing/matter/fact (also) to include", where the "also" part seems to refer to the matter/fact part, as in "there's also the fact that Ryuma was a one-eyed samurai".
Anyway, the point of this discussion between Kawamatsu and Hyogoro is that Zoro is not only the spitting image of Ushimaru, but also of Ryuma who happened to be one-eyed as well and is the ancestor of Ushimaru. Hence the chapter title. It's about Zoro looking exactly like infamous samurai, not that he is one.That's interesting. Hopefully we can get a translators to weigh in on this.
But yeah, if its a mistranslation we can scratch this off as supporting evidence. Though I still think the other side of my argument holds water.
As much as I respect different opinions, it honestly still feels weird for me to see Yamato being talked about as having some sort of internal conflict over leaving, as if Yamato is like Vivi being conflicted over whether to leave with the Straw Hats or stay in her country, even though we really haven't.
Its not that hard to justify really. The country is in ruins and it makes sense to stay and rebuild at a time when the ruler is fragile. We also see a theme in this series about people shouldering the responsibility of family members actions, even if they weren't directly responsible, such as Rogers child being sought, and Garp being held accountable for Dragon and Luffy.
It isn't absurd to think that Yamato will feel a great sense of debt towards Momonosuke and Wano.
Zoro is NOT First mate. That may be what the fandom calls him, and it may be what he obviously it, but that was never made official in any capacity. Especially considering how often Nami gives orders that get obeyed.
He is, officially, "Combatant." Says that in the introduction to every volume.
So basically…
Robby:
KaiokenActually, this was never said in any capacity.Smudge:
NoBut what about the parallel with Rayleigh being the first mate?Robby:
TimesNope, officially down as combatant.Smudge:
No no noSo does this mean the position of first mate hasn't been filled?Robby:
FourWhich means Yamato could potentially fill the position of first mate.Smudge:
Fuuuuuuuuuuuu…cccccccckkkkkkkk!! -
Wait, we're having this discussion about Zoro not being the first mate because people the argument that Yamato could become the first mate? O.o
-
I doubt any newcomer could be vice-captain. Makes no sense.
But I think a newcomer could be Quartermaster, as it's less a leadership role and more like ship-keeper and crew pacifier. The role currently is mostly done by Nami, and sometimes Sanji, but it could be assumed by someone else while not downgrading anyone.
The problem in Yamato's case is that he has showed no skill at all related to that. No particularly good social skills, no knowledge of how to keep a ship and organize a crew, no interaction with the Straw Hats in order to get to know them or for us to judge if he could keep them in line.
-
Wait, we're having this discussion about Zoro not being the first mate because people the argument that Yamato could become the first mate? O.o
No, for Yamato the possible role of combatant was brought up since Zoro is also one, then it was argued that combatant is too vague of a role and that Zoro is the first mate above all.
Smudger, I'll get back to you later when I have time to reply in full
-
Wait, we're having this discussion about Zoro not being the first mate because people the argument that Yamato could become the first mate? O.o
God no, I was just joking with Robby.
I don't think anybody has ever mentioned this being a thing.
Smudger, I'll get back to you later when I have time to reply in full
That's cool. I was going to say that we've come to a deadlock with a lot of our arguments 'for' and 'against' Yamato. Maybe we could pick some of these back up when we have more information from successional chapters.
-
Yamato is not even from Wano, and according to her own words, she'll leave as soon as Kaido is gone.
This pretty much implies, she has no interest in stayin' to open Wano, because leaving it in the hands of the Kozuki Clan, guarantees as much that it will eventually.
-
At the end of Wano, the country shall be opened up and protected under Luffy's flag. It will be under his protection and that of his armada. There is really no need for Yamato to stay there at all. Who knows, maybe even Zunesha will stay there as protection.
-
I doubt any newcomer could be vice-captain. Makes no sense.
But I think a newcomer could be Quartermaster, as it's less a leadership role and more like ship-keeper and crew pacifier. The role currently is mostly done by Nami, and sometimes Sanji, but it could be assumed by someone else while not downgrading anyone.
The problem in Yamato's case is that he has showed no skill at all related to that. No particularly good social skills, no knowledge of how to keep a ship and organize a crew, no interaction with the Straw Hats in order to get to know them or for us to judge if he could keep them in line.
Like, there's no need for the SH to be kept in line anyway when the captain is a complete buffoon who doesn't care about organization.
-
Zoro's not the First Mate in an official capacity, but I think it's relatively safe to argue that he fills that role "unofficially", similar to how Nami is both the Navigator and, for all practical purposes, also the Quartermaster. He's consistently portrayed as the second strongest in the crew, he steps up to keep Luffy on track on the rare occasions when he starts faltering as Captain (most notably when Usopp left in Water 7), and he takes it upon himself to deal with any major threats that endanger the crew when Luffy is out of commission (most notably during the encounter with Kuma in Thriller Bark). He may choose not to exercise the authority the position of First Mate traditionally holds, but Zoro definitely assumes the responsibilities of a second-in-command when it's needed.
Consequently, I doubt the position of First Mate is on the table for Yams, or anyone else.
Personally, I'm not particularly concerned with the need for Yamato to map to a specific ship role at this point. He's had a lot going on since shortly after his introduction that severely limit his opportunities to show off a secondary skillset beyond "monstrously strong ice-wolf oni-person" and "mentor figure for Momonosuke", and I think we can expect a fairly lengthy denouement period after Kaidou's defeat that will give him plenty of room to show what else he can do before the Strawhats head out. In the meantime, I don't have any problem with assuming a generic Combatant role for Yams until we have more to work with.
I think Yamato's case is plenty strong as it is - anything still outstanding (ship role, interpersonal dynamics with the rest of the crew, etc.) is just icing on the cake.
-
No, for Yamato the possible role of combatant was brought up since Zoro is also one, then it was argued that combatant is too vague of a role and that Zoro is the first mate above all.
Smudger, I'll get back to you later when I have time to reply in full
God no, I was just joking with Robby.
I don't think anybody has ever mentioned this being a thing.
Thank god. Even for APF this would have been a bit much.
-
Like, there's no need for the SH to be kept in line anyway when the captain is a complete buffoon who doesn't care about organization.
The story can have new needs as it goes. We never needed a Helmsman until it was time to have one with them.
All the plot needs is a situation in which someone doing that role makes life easier to everyone else. "Wow, you being here really helped". -
Zoro had that colorspread that was him and all the other First Mates and frankly colorspreads are a higher level of canon than volume introductions.
-
The story can have new needs as it goes. We never needed a Helmsman until it was time to have one with them.
All the plot needs is a situation in which someone doing that role makes life easier to everyone else. "Wow, you being here really helped".They always needed a helmsman. I remember how I got literally laughed at saying the exact same things that were actually said in the "Green Room" chapter when I spoke about the necessity of a helmsman. It's only that Oda can bend the necessity to his will if he doesn't wants to put certain positions on the backburner. I mean look at the Bartolomeo Pirates. Those guys made it to the New World and they were lacking a navigator if I'm not mistaken. Sure it was done for a gag but still, pretty much shows that Oda can find a way around. Doesn't mean the position is not required. Heck, back in Jaya when Burgess was labeled as the helmsman (of a silly raft no less) it should have been clear that this position is one Oda considers important. But not at the moment as far as the Strawhats were concerned.
-
That's cool. I was going to say that we've come to a deadlock with a lot of our arguments 'for' and 'against' Yamato. Maybe we could pick some of these back up when we have more information from successional chapters.
Alright then
@Cyan:
Zoro had that colorspread that was him and all the other First Mates and frankly colorspreads are a higher level of canon than volume introductions.
My sarcasm detector is inconclusive
-
That's a meta level look on things. We have yet to see anyone within the world itself state "his role on the crew is swordsman". It's just like with how everybody refers to the worst generation as Supernovas even though this title was never used in the actual world itself. It only appears on the chapter title and in databooks.
Supernovas and the worst generation are two different groups and have two different meanings.
Any rookie pirate with a bounty of a 100 mil or higher is a supernova. Ace, Cavendish, and Bartomelo are/were supernova
The worst generation is an exclusive group of badass pirates with any amount of experience who are considered particularly infamous for their deeds. The group largely consists of supernova but Blackbeard is also in it and it’s possible for more to join
-
"Wow, you being here really helped".
Since Usopp, Nami and Chopper have been complete losers, this battle has made a point as to why we should avoid recruiting weaklings at this point of the series, the upcoming challenges are even greater than this, the SH's are a small group and they're meant to surpass Roger's crew, one hell of a powerhouse would come handy in case no one else can hold Akainu for a second.
People proposing candidates as if we were going to fight Bellamies or Don Kriegs.
-
@Zik:
Supernovas and the worst generation are two different groups and have two different meanings.
Any rookie pirate with a bounty of a 100 mil or higher is a supernova. Ace, Cavendish, and Bartomelo are/were supernova
The worst generation is an exclusive group of badass pirates with any amount of experience who are considered particularly infamous for their deeds. The group largely consists of supernova but Blackbeard is also in it and it’s possible for more to join
Er, no? The term Supernova has not been used in the OP itself? First time it got used was in the title of chapter 498 called "11 Supernovas". They however were nit been adressed by that name when Shackey introduced them. She just called big time rookies, who just like Luffy made a name for themselves, have a bounty over 100 mil belly and made it up to Sabaody. They weren't even called the worst generation back then. Just super rookies. The next generation moniker came after the timeskip.
Supernova however to this day is not only not a term to label them in story, it's also not a term to label anyone else in the story. It only appears in databooks and vivrecards. And when it does, it usually refers to those eleven from chapter 498 (I say usually because I'm not that familiar with the VC contents). Ace, Cavendish and Barto are also super rookies from their generation. But they haven't been labeled as supernovas neither in a chapter title nor in the story itself.
-
Since Usopp, Nami and Chopper have been complete losers, this battle has made a point as to why we should avoid recruiting weaklings at this point of the series, the upcoming challenges are even greater than this, the SH's are a small group and they're meant to surpass Roger's crew, one hell of a powerhouse would come handy in case no one else can hold Akainu for a second.
People proposing candidates as if we were going to fight Bellamies or Don Kriegs.
Interesting you say that since Nami electrocuted Ulti and Chopper slapped Queen after all. :<)
-
Supernova however to this day is not only not a term to label them in story
Brownbeard used the term "Supernova" to address those 11 from Sabaody… those 11 plus Blackbeard makes the Worst Generation...
Supernova is exclusively for those 11, where Super Rookie is everyone with the necessary bounty…
-
Interesting you say that since Nami electrocuted Ulti and Chopper slapped Queen after all. :<)
Nami failed, Zeus redirected the attack.
And hitting anyone is no big deal really, Squardo even pierced Newgate.
-
Thank god. Even for APF this would have been a bit much.
For arguments sake, the discussion was had a while back that Oda could introduce a new character and make them the first mate.
All he has to establish is a retcon where this character knew Luffy as they were growing up, were best friends, slap a pirate dream on them and boom new character as 1st mate.
If Oda specifically took a liking or loved the character he could force that issue. He could’ve easily done that with Sabo. Sabo originally wanted to be a pirate. Just have him re-dedicate himself once his memory came back.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Er, no? The term Supernova has not been used in the OP itself? First time it got used was in the title of chapter 498 called "11 Supernovas". They however were nit been adressed by that name when Shackey introduced them. She just called big time rookies, who just like Luffy made a name for themselves, have a bounty over 100 mil belly and made it up to Sabaody. They weren't even called the worst generation back then. Just super rookies. The next generation moniker came after the timeskip.
Supernova however to this day is not only not a term to label them in story, it's also not a term to label anyone else in the story. It only appears in databooks and vivrecards. And when it does, it usually refers to those eleven from chapter 498 (I say usually because I'm not that familiar with the VC contents). Ace, Cavendish and Barto are also super rookies from their generation. But they haven't been labeled as supernovas neither in a chapter title nor in the story itself.
Supernovas = Big time rookies = Super rookies
I’m not sure what you’re saying no to exactly in my post. Not sure what the hang up is on using that specific word especially given what it means.
Supernovas and the worst generation are not the same thing.
I’m not sure it matters if a character actually says the words “super nova” when it’s Oda that has slapped that label on them.
And going by another post it looks like Brownbeard did in fact say it.
-
Nami failed, Zeus redirected the attack.
And hitting anyone is no big deal really, Squardo even pierced Newgate.
Yeah, which is why I hope Nami and Chopper succeed more next time.
-
@Zik:
For arguments sake, the discussion was had a while back that Oda could introduce a new character and make them the first mate.
All he has to establish is a retcon where this character knew Luffy as they were growing up, were best friends, slap a pirate dream on them and boom new character as 1st mate.
If Oda specifically took a liking or loved the character he could force that issue. He could’ve easily done that with Sabo. Sabo originally wanted to be a pirate. Just have him re-dedicate himself once his memory came back.
Yep, that's what I meant even for APF that would be a bit much. Apparently I was wrong.
Supernovas = Big time rookies = Super rookies
I’m not sure what you’re saying no to exactly in my post. Not sure what the hang up is on using that specific word especially given what it means.
Supernovas and the worst generation are not the same thing.
I’m not sure it matters if a character actually says the words “super nova” when it’s Oda that has slapped that label on them.
And going by another post it looks like Brownbeard diid in fact say it.
I'm saying that the label "Supernova" does not exist in the OP world. It's a term meta level material and fans use to discribe those 11 guys from Sabaody. But unlike Emperors or Warlords it's not a term that exists to refer to a specific group. I don't see how I shall make this easier to understand.
And I merely brought this up to give another example how a meta level label for the readers like this has no actual value in the world. Just like Zoro's "combatant" is a label that never used by anyone in the story ever. Or to put it more simply. Just because each volume lists Zoro as a combatant, it's not the same as someone saying "that's Roronoa Zoro, the vombatant if the Strawhat Pirates". In the same way as no one would say, "that's Eustass Kid of the 11 Supernovas".
-
I'm saying that the label "Supernova" does not exist in the OP world. It's a term meta level material and fans use to discribe those 11 guys from Sabaody. But unlike Emperors or Warlords it's not a term that exists to refer to a specific group. I don't see how I shall make this easier to understand.And I merely brought this up to give another example how a meta level label for the readers like this has no actual value in the world. Just like Zoro's "combatant" is a label that never used by anyone in the story ever. Or to put it more simply. Just because each volume lists Zoro as a combatant, it's not the same as someone saying "that's Roronoa Zoro, the vombatant if the Strawhat Pirates". In the same way as no one would say, "that's Eustass Kid of the 11 Supernovas".
Did you miss Zhenja's post where they showed proof of the term being used by characters in the story?
-
Did you miss Zhenja's post where he showed proof of the term being used by characters in the story?
I seem to have missed that. Was that from the official translation? Because I remember some unofficial ones use the term that always got canned by the official translation.
Edit:
I've found just seen the message now. My question stands. Is that the official translation? -
I seem to have missed that. Was that from the official translation? Because I remember some unofficial ones use the term that always got canned by the official translation.Edit:I've found just seen the message now. My question stands. Is that the official translation? Also what chapter was that again?
It's from the official translation, yes. Chapter 664
-
@Zik:
The worst generation is an exclusive group of badass pirates with any amount of experience who are considered particularly infamous for their deeds. The group largely consists of supernova but Blackbeard is also in it and it’s possible for more to join
The worst generation is specifically called that because they caused all sorts of outrageous acts at more or less the same time as each other.
So it's not really possible for more to join.
-
It's from the official translation, yes. Chapter 664
Thanks. I managed to found it in the colored version. And it seems that even the official translation is wrong. Chapter 498 calls them "11人の超新星" which translates as "11 Supernovas". Brownbeard in chapter 664 says "11人の億超えルーキー" which translates as "11 Rookies exceeding 100 million". I'd share a screenshot if I'd know how to do that.
Either way the point stands, even the official translation messed that up, so my point still stands.
-
The worst generation is specifically called that because they caused all sorts of outrageous acts at more or less the same time as each other.
So it's not really possible for more to join.
Oh well I felt it was at least possible during that two year time skip. I didn’t think it was time period specific. Was kinda hoping Oda did something like that with a new character.
Even now if some new pirate showed up and killed a celestial dragon, blew up Impel Down, and I dunno sank a few populated islands I think they’d get lumped in but if not it’s just as likely they get singled out with a labeling all on to themself.
-
@Zik:
Oh well I felt it was at least possible during that two year time skip. I didn’t think it was time period specific. Was kinda hoping Oda did something like that with a new character.
Even now if some new pirate showed up and killed a celestial dragon, blew up Impel Down, and I dunno sank a few populated islands I think they’d get lumped in but if not it’s just as likely they get singled out with a labeling all on to themself.
I think it's because they are already established pirates and enough time passed that the common people now associate the term with the Sabaody 11 and Blackbeard.
Bartolomeo entered the New World just a year after them, but was not lumped in despite already having quite the reputation.
-
Thanks. I managed to found it in the colored version. And it seems that even the official translation is wrong. Chapter 498 calls them "11人の超新星" which translates as "11 Supernovas". Brownbeard in chapter 664 says "11人の億超えルーキー" which translates as "11 Rookies exceeding 100 million". I'd share a screenshot if I'd know how to do that.
Either way the point stands, even the official translation messed that up, so my point still stands.
It's not that straightforward though. The term 超新星 might have only appeared in a chapter title but the term supernova did appear in the official translation, no matter if it's accurate or not. For the English audience "supernova" does exist in the One Piece world, so you can't blame people for using that term even if it's not a direct translation. Neither are Emperor or Warlord, are those translations and people who use them wrong as well? What about World Nobles vs Heavenly Dragons? Brownbeard still refers to those eleven people with a bounty of over 100 million Berry as one group, adding Blackbeard makes them the Worst Generation. Which leads to the next issue:
Which parts of volumes are unequivocally canon and which are not? You dismiss chapter titles and crew positions, so what about the SBS? They're all from or directly supervised by Oda but why do only some of them count? If we considered chapter titles canon where reasonable, is it still wrong to replace "11 people exceeding 100 million" with "11 supernova" when that term was used before? If we don't what's stopping us from taking SBS seriously which is mostly dick jokes anyway? -
It's not that straightforward though. The term 超新星 might have only appeared in a chapter title but the term supernova did appear in the official translation, no matter if it's accurate or not. For the English audience "supernova" does exist in the One Piece world, so you can't blame people for using that term even if it's not a direct translation. Neither are Emperor or Warlord, are those translations and people who use them wrong as well? What about World Nobles vs Heavenly Dragons? Brownbeard still refers to those eleven people with a bounty of over 100 million Berry as one group, adding Blackbeard makes them the Worst Generation. Which leads to the next issue:
Which parts of volumes are unequivocally canon and which are not? You dismiss chapter titles and crew positions, so what about the SBS? They're all from or directly supervised by Oda but why do only some of them count? If we considered chapter titles canon where reasonable, is it still wrong to replace "11 people exceeding 100 million" with "11 supernova" when that term was used before? If we don't what's stopping us from taking SBS seriously which is mostly dick jokes anyway?I'm having no problem with people using the term to refer to them when talking about them. I was mainly trying to say that the term has no meaning within the One Piece world itself. Just like Zoro being the combatant of the Strawhat crew is not something anyone would say in the story itself, while it still is the label given in every volumes character discription.
Also I'm not blaming anyone of the English only readers. It's not the readers fault that the translations are inaccurate. But that doesn't change the point that the term does not exists in the OP world.
As far as Emperors, Warlords or Celestial Dragons are concerned, I have to admit I don't really understand what you are trying to say. These are clearly terms that do exist in the OP world as characters always refer to those groups by those names. But nobody labels the 11 super rookies as Supernovas. And nobody labels Zoro as "The Combatant". Yet, both are terms that exist in meta level material.
-
They always needed a helmsman. I remember how I got literally laughed at saying the exact same things that were actually said in the "Green Room" chapter when I spoke about the necessity of a helmsman. It's only that Oda can bend the necessity to his will if he doesn't wants to put certain positions on the backburner. I mean look at the Bartolomeo Pirates. Those guys made it to the New World and they were lacking a navigator if I'm not mistaken. Sure it was done for a gag but still, pretty much shows that Oda can find a way around. Doesn't mean the position is not required. Heck, back in Jaya when Burgess was labeled as the helmsman (of a silly raft no less) it should have been clear that this position is one Oda considers important. But not at the moment as far as the Strawhats were concerned.
I may not have been clear. I know they always needed a helmsman, but the story never emphasized it until Jinbe was onboard the Sunny in WCI. Until then, the crew always escaped any troubles by themselves, without any single instance of the story sknowledging that having a helmsman would make things easier. Burgess being a helmsman is foreshadowing, but not really a plot point.
Just like they always needed a helmsman, but it was never emphasized, I see the possibility of a quartermaster. Maybe they could have avoided some situations easier with one around. For instance, when leaving Fishman Island, Nami went to bath, and the crew almost got in trouble because they were fooling around unsupervisioned. The story never aknowledged that need, but maybe a quartermaster could have made the difference there. Same thing on the way to WCI a quartermaster could have avoided Luffy wasting all the food. Nami acts as the quartermaster, but she's not really focused on it, so she let things slip out of control sometimes, and often gets stressed out doing it because that's a role imposed on her, rather than something she's just gifted to do.
-
Yamato never reacted to Momo's survival or didnt bother question why he suddenly turned that big.
Momo's been completely eclipsed in the eyes of Yamato in comparision to Luffy, she inmediately reacted to Luffy's arrival, and wondered why he could turn white and big.
That huge difference of impression is the reason no one's falling for that narrative of some people, where Yamato's supposedly going to give up her dreams to remain a servanslave of Wano because she would fall to kiss Momo's feet any minute now..
Yeah, I dont see things going that direction at all.
-
Yamato never reacted to Momo's survival or didnt bother question why he suddenly turned that big.
Actually, the story did show him noticing both.
-
Yamato never reacted to Momo's survival or didnt bother question why he suddenly turned that big.
Momo's been completely eclipsed in the eyes of Yamato in comparision to Luffy, she inmediately reacted to Luffy's arrival, and wondered why he could turn white and big.
That huge difference of impression is the reason no one's falling for that narrative of some people, where Yamato's supposedly going to give up her dreams to remain a servanslave of Wano because she would fall to kiss Momo's feet any minute now..
Yeah, I dont see things going that direction at all.
Also, if Momo thought that lowly of Denjiro and the others for any help, then he would have given up on them a long time ago.
-
Man, breaks really ain't good for this thread…
-
Man, breaks really ain't good for this thread…
Gotta admit though. I applaud for the story being able to keep throwing the audience into a state of confusion with Yamato for this long, reminding me of what was done with Franky. lol
-
@Zik:
Oh well I felt it was at least possible during that two year time skip. I didn’t think it was time period specific. Was kinda hoping Oda did something like that with a new character.
Even now if some new pirate showed up and killed a celestial dragon, blew up Impel Down, and I dunno sank a few populated islands I think they’d get lumped in but if not it’s just as likely they get singled out with a labeling all on to themself.
Its just a way for Oda to have an official label for the 11 supernovas. Since supernova is just anyone with 100+ at the archipelago. And Blackbeard is tacked on in there because important Luffy's rival.
-
Speaking of Teach, I wonder if the Blackbeard Pirates will end up acquiring the Hebi Hebi no Mi: Yamata no Orochi Devil Fruit. Oda has suspiciously avoided focusing much of the Yamata no Orochi Fruit beyond Orochi turning into a snake form and spawning heads that ended up being cut by Kaido and the Akazaya Samurai. I don't even recall a named attack being used by Orochi. The lack of focus leads me to believe that Oda is saving the Yamata no Orochi Fruit to focus at a later time unless he plans to keep one of rarest Devil Fruits underutilized - but then why even associate Orochi with a Mythical Zoan when an ordinary Hebi Hebi variant could have sufficed? Oda could have easily featured the Yamata no Orochi Devil Fruit more in this arc, especially when the character who possesses it had over 25 years to familiarize themself with the Devil Fruit. I get that Orochi is weak-minded and weak-willed but did nothing come about from the sheer terror Oden made him experience 25 years ago? Or the humiliation/terror Orochi suffered during the Legendary Hour Long execution which Oden survived through until being shot by Kaido 20 years ago? At the very least it affected Orochi to the point where he felt fear that chilled him. There is also the fact that the Devil Fruit is themed around a very well known tale in Japanese history. Orochi isn't a character that is positioned to feature significantly beyond the Wano arc and I can't even see how his story would continue if he were alive - imprisoned?
Currently Hiyori may have Orochi pinned down but by Jinbe channeling water throughout the castle, it could end up washing Orochi away and freeing him. If Denjiro (what is he currently doing - could he be looking for a certain someone?) doesn't find Orochi and kill him, Orochi could end up escaping and encountering the Blackbeard Pirates at some point in the future. If Orochi isn't folded into the Blackbeard Pirate force, he could be disposed of and have his Devil Fruit stolen. The current lack of focus on the Yamata no Orochi Fruit would mean that any subsequent user that ends up wielding the power would have a relatively blank canvas to explore their power on avoiding the problem of repetition or overlap. The multi-headed snake feature could be changed or kept and evolved.
If the Will of the Yamata no Orochi saw it settle in the hands of Higurashi who gifted the Devil Fruit to Orochi, there may be some intention behind the Devil Fruit essence to oppose Wano. Now that Joy Boy has returned through Luffy, the Yamata no Orochi Fruit could feel a new user is needed. Joy Boy and Wano Kuni were intimately connected in the past and if spirit of the Yamata no Orochi wished to oppose Wano, it would also want to oppose Joy Boy. And based on how the story is developing, the rival pirate crew to Luffy (Joy Boy) and Straw Hat Pirates are Teach and the Blackbeard Pirates. If it is true that the Nika Fruit evaded the grasp of the World Government for over 800 years, then it may be possible for the Yamata no Orochi Fruit to direct itself toward a user who is more able to draw out its capabilities and who is more closely aligned with its will i.e. the Blackbeard Pirates.
!
!
If the Blackbeard Pirates do gain the Yamata no Orochi power, it could serve as an opponent for Yamato to face off against. Although I do wonder if Teach will be the one to consume it or if a different Blackbeard Pirate will. What other Mythical Zoan could Teach consume to complete his Logia, Paramecia, Zoan representation? A Black Tortoise Mythical Zoan to give Teach defensive capabilities which he is currently lacking immensely? Teach would be lacking defensive capabilities from his poor Haki usage but I do see him making up for it with a Mythical Zoan power. I wonder if the Yamata no Orochi Fruit will reveal a different power in Teach if he consumed it - awakening the Dragon portion of the dragon/serpent beast it embodies.!
-
Speaking of Teach, I wonder if the Blackbeard Pirates will end up acquiring the Hebi Hebi no Mi: Yamata no Orochi Devil Fruit. Oda has suspiciously avoided focusing much of the Yamata no Orochi Fruit beyond Orochi turning into a snake form and spawning heads that ended up being cut by Kaido and the Akazaya Samurai. I don't even recall a named attack being used by Orochi. The lack of focus leads me to believe that Oda is saving the Yamata no Orochi Fruit to focus at a later time unless he plans to keep one of rarest Devil Fruits underutilized - but then why even associate Orochi with a Mythical Zoan when an ordinary Hebi Hebi variant could have sufficed? Oda could have easily featured the Yamata no Orochi Devil Fruit more in this arc, especially when the character who possesses it had over 25 years to familiarize themself with the Devil Fruit. I get that Orochi is weak-minded and weak-willed but did nothing come about from the sheer terror Oden made him experience 25 years ago? Or the humiliation/terror Orochi suffered during the Legendary Hour Long execution which Oden survived through until being shot by Kaido 20 years ago? At the very least it affected Orochi to the point where he felt fear that chilled him. There is also the fact that the Devil Fruit is themed around a very well known tale in Japanese history. Orochi isn't a character that is positioned to feature significantly beyond the Wano arc and I can't even see how his story would continue if he were alive - imprisoned?
Currently Hiyori may have Orochi pinned down but by Jinbe channeling water throughout the castle, it could end up washing Orochi away and freeing him. If Denjiro (what is he currently doing - could he be looking for a certain someone?) doesn't find Orochi and kill him, Orochi could end up escaping and encountering the Blackbeard Pirates at some point in the future. If Orochi isn't folded into the Blackbeard Pirate force, he could be disposed of and have his Devil Fruit stolen. The current lack of focus on the Yamata no Orochi Fruit would mean that any subsequent user that ends up wielding the power would have a relatively blank canvas to explore their power on avoiding the problem of repetition or overlap. The multi-headed snake feature could be changed or kept and evolved.
If the Will of the Yamata no Orochi saw it settle in the hands of Higurashi who gifted the Devil Fruit to Orochi, there may be some intention behind the Devil Fruit essence to oppose Wano. Now that Joy Boy has returned through Luffy, the Yamata no Orochi Fruit could feel a new user is needed. Joy Boy and Wano Kuni were intimately connected in the past and if spirit of the Yamata no Orochi wished to oppose Wano, it would also want to oppose Joy Boy. And based on how the story is developing, the rival pirate crew to Luffy (Joy Boy) and Straw Hat Pirates are Teach and the Blackbeard Pirates. If it is true that the Nika Fruit evaded the grasp of the World Government for over 800 years, then it may be possible for the Yamata no Orochi Fruit to direct itself toward a user who is more able to draw out its capabilities and who is more closely aligned with its will i.e. the Blackbeard Pirates.
! https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/one_piece_v96_ch971_p015-e1596182153665.jpg
! https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/one_piece_v96_ch971_p014-e1596182062482.jpg
If the Blackbeard Pirates do gain the Yamata no Orochi power, it could serve as an opponent for Yamato to face off against. Although I do wonder if Teach will be the one to consume it or if a different Blackbeard Pirate will. What other Mythical Zoan could Teach consume to complete his Logia, Paramecia, Zoan representation? A Black Tortoise Mythical Zoan to give Teach defensive capabilities which he is currently lacking immensely? Teach would be lacking defensive capabilities from his poor Haki usage but I do see him making up for it with a Mythical Zoan power. I wonder if the Yamata no Orochi Fruit will reveal a different power in Teach if he consumed it - awakening the Dragon portion of the dragon/serpent beast it embodies.! https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2020/09/one_piece_v93_ch932_p023-024-edit.jpg
I always had a feel for the idea that Blackbeard would gain the Orochi fruit, given that Blackbeard looks to be iconic with it, both forms having those buck teeth and what not. That said, I can also imagine the Black Tortoise fruit for Blackbeard for Defensive power and possible manipulation of water, given that Genbu the Black Tortoise represents the North and Water.
We already have Kaido as the Seiryu (Azure Dragon). So I can imagine there will be a Byakko, Genbu and Suzaku fruit. The latter I think will be in Shanks' sword, Gryphon.
-
Perhaps Oda intentionally lacked any proper coverage on Orochi's devil fruit abilities, in the effort to highlight that he was incompetent in not just ruling the country, but also using his own power.
-
Blackbeard's Yami Yami is likely a Mythical Zoan too anyway, like Luffy's, so he would technically have the power of every DF type.
-
I may not have been clear. I know they always needed a helmsman, but the story never emphasized it until Jinbe was onboard the Sunny in WCI. Until then, the crew always escaped any troubles by themselves, without any single instance of the story sknowledging that having a helmsman would make things easier. Burgess being a helmsman is foreshadowing, but not really a plot point.
Just like they always needed a helmsman, but it was never emphasized, I see the possibility of a quartermaster. Maybe they could have avoided some situations easier with one around. For instance, when leaving Fishman Island, Nami went to bath, and the crew almost got in trouble because they were fooling around unsupervisioned. The story never aknowledged that need, but maybe a quartermaster could have made the difference there. Same thing on the way to WCI a quartermaster could have avoided Luffy wasting all the food. Nami acts as the quartermaster, but she's not really focused on it, so she let things slip out of control sometimes, and often gets stressed out doing it because that's a role imposed on her, rather than something she's just gifted to do.
The bolded part is exactly where I disagreed back then already. The thought of a necessety was implanted much earlier but only with Jinbei it got hammered home that obviously that nobody could disagree anymore. They lost their first ship because of the damage it took. Of course poor steering is not the main culprit for that but it surely added to it. When Merry died Luffy literally apologized for sucking at steering and steering the ship into icebergs. Sure we never saw that scene but we usually don't see much of the steering thing going on during the navigation between the islands in the first place. What we saw however is the Strawhats sucking at avoiding Laboon (breaking the steering leaver in the prosess if I'm not mistaken). Sure you could say that could be because the lever was too weak. But then again I doubt that a real helmsman would have messed that up that badly.
Yes, these situations are not as evident as "we need a doctor now" or "let's look for a cook". But with all the positions filled once Brook joined, the position of a helmsman was the only one actually having things happening within the story showing that a helmsman might have made things better.
-
Yes, these situations are not as evident as "we need a doctor now" or "let's look for a cook". But with all the positions filled once Brook joined, the position of a helmsman was the only one actually having things happening within the story showing that a helmsman might have made things better.
The issue became irrelevant once Franky joined because he's clearly a competent enough helmsman himself even if he's not on Jinbe's level.
-
I wouldn't be surprised if there was no follow up on the Yamata no Orochi Fruit but I would expect there to be especially given the naming convention of Orochi's Devil Fruit. I do also agree that Orochi's presentation as a useless Mythical Zoan Devil Fruit user does work as a good balancer to Luffy being revealed to be a Mythical Zoan Devil Fruit user himself. Rather than a Devil Fruit providing the user with a broken ability, it is the user's application of the power they wield which drives forward how capable they are.
There is potential for the Yamata no Orochi Fruit to hold further relevance in the story, especially when it served as the main enemy of Wano (through Orochi). More so than Kaido, Orochi made Wano suffer during the past 20 years. If Oda plans to further elaborate on the Zoan Devil Fruits having will, the Yamata no Orochi Devil Fruit working its way to a new user capable of utilising its power more would be quite interesting. And with the Blackbeard Pirates serving as the rivals to the Straw Hat Pirates who are currently hunting for rare Devil Fruits, it wouldn't be unexpected for the Yamata no Orochi to seek them out.
Also with Orochi being incompetent at ruling Wano, I don't believe that was the case as he never intended to rule it. Orochi always intended to bring Wano to ruin while enjoying himself in the process. And he was immensely successful in that regards. Orochi brought the Kozuki name to the point where it was ridiculed and vilified. Orochi would have probably been a terrible leader but that has more to do with the fact that he is unhinged than incompetent. Orochi is actually quite intelligent and more a mastermind than Kaido. Without Orochi's efforts alongside Higurashi 20 years ago, Oden would have dispatched Kaido. As strong as Luffy's Gear Five is, I don't believe he is currently stronger than Oden who was overwhelming a Kaido in his prime. Zoro could barely handle Enma in his fight against King and Oden was casually wielding two blades of that caliber. Also let's not forget that the reason Oden held off on attacking Orochi and Kaido was not because of Kaido but because Orochi was holding the whole of Wano hostage. Oden held off on attacking Kaido for five years because Orochi made the suggestion that he would stop the kidnapping. Orochi may not have possessed strength but what he did possess was a mind that could manipulate others. Take Orochi out from this situation and Kaido would have been wrecked. The whole nation expected Oden to save them but what they got was a man who reduced himself into a fool who would dance across Wano regularly for money over 5 years (to satisfy Orochi).
Additionally, the main reason Oden and the Akazaya Samurai were so caught off guard when targeting Kaido wasn't because of Kaido but because Orochi placed a spy within their ranks. Kaido may have been the main obstacle to liberation but it was Orochi who served to slip up Oden and the Akazaya Samurai (because Orochi knew Oden). Once Kin'emon and Co. got sent to the future, they almost didn't escape Wano because of Orochi and Kanjuro. If not for Kin'emon's error, Orochi would have succeeded in stopping the raid on Onigashima. Kin'emon's interpretation of Yasuie's message isn't something anyone could have prepared for. And Onigashima would have exploded as per Orochi's plans if not for Yamato freezing the bombs and shielding the other bombs from the explosive Big Mom set off when she reached to grab something.
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
In terms of the power Orochi knew how to wield, he was definitely not incompetent. I honestly don't think the word incompetent should be used to characterize Orochi. Yes, he was a fool but ultimately the reason Oden lost and why Wano was cast into darkness was mainly because of Orochi.I would love to see more of Orochi being an antagonist (even if it was the Devil Fruit taking him over) not some flimsy point for plot threads to resolve themselves. Now that we know that Zoan Devil Fruits have a will of their own, I would like to see the Yamata no Orochi Fruit go berserk once Orochi is free from the seastone nails which could become dislodged as Jinbe guides the water across Onigashima. An awakening of the Yamata no Orochi Fruit with it displaying its true form on Onigashima would be amazing. We could have a giant Yamata no Orochi which the combined forces of the rebellion need to take down or….just Usopp. Once Onigashima is above the Flower Capital, the Yamata no Orochi transformation could destroy a significant portion of Onigashima, which Caribou absorbs with his mud to avoid damage to the Capital (Caribou has to be doing something). The lesser land mass would also make it easier for Momonosuke to keep Onigashima afloat.
-
The issue became irrelevant once Franky joined because he's clearly a competent enough helmsman himself even if he's not on Jinbe's level.
A shipwright is not helmsman. I don't know why this even needs to be said. Especially after we witnessed what stunts Jinbei can pull in steering the Sunny through the Green Room. Neither Franky nor anybody else has shown and above avarage steering skills. Even though the OP world even then was full of ridiculous things like mealstroms, knock up streams, huge sea monsters and those weird currents they encountered before meeting Camie.