Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima)

[Robby]

Elbaf is the only real crime (did the translator not get that it was "fable" backward?) but Roguetown/Loguetown remains one of those iffy ones.

Did Oda mean it as in Rogues? Or as in prologue? Or is it a case where the Japanese hits right in the middle and he meant both?

I side with Loguetown generally because "prologue" makes more sense as a story device, but its also a complete nonsense word in english, so that one doesn't offend me.

Jinbe/Jimbei/Jimbe/Jinbei are all legit and all the translations got that one different for years until Oda put it down officially. To this day I regularly rotate them out of pure habit because it amuses me to change it every time.

What bothers me, 20 years later, is Nami's joining chapter. "The Second Person". Where the translator failed to realize the connection to Zoro or Sanji's chapters, and made it "The Other Villain". Sigh. That was straight up mistranslating words and context.

There ARE times where you have to go with the native language over the creator's intent though. I'm sorry, "Levely" just is complete nonsense. "Reverie" may not have the "level field" aspect to, but its an actual word.

Also Shilliew, which was correctly translated as Shiryu… then Oda gave the name in English as "Shilliew"... but then years later gave it in english again, this time as the proper "Shiryu". Because he learned better on that one.

AUthor intent rules all 99.99% of the time, but Oda is NOT by any means a native english speaker, so in some cases the translator needs to override him for the native audience.

"How fast the time fleets" and all.

[astagadragon]

By the way, I saw some screenshot of OP anime this week (or is that next week's episode, I don't ever planning to watch the anime again lol) and the one person that is theorized to be Yamato back at Oden's boiling is having Yamato's color scheme on the clothes (white and light blue)…

[Shift]

@astagadragon:

By the way, I saw some screenshot of OP anime this week (or is that next week's episode, I don't ever planning to watch the anime again lol) and the one person that is theorized to be Yamato back at Oden's boiling is having Yamato's color scheme on the clothes (white and light blue)…

Makes sense, considering color can be adjusted up to the 11th hour and they knew Yamato was there for months.

Doesn't change the ambiguity of the original panel, tho.

[electricmastro]

He also spelled “Alabasta” for Chapter 611, even though he previously spelled it as “Arabasta” for the arc itself.

!

[StrawHatJedi]

@Robby:

Elbaf is the only real crime (did the translator not get that it was "fable" backward?) but Roguetown/Loguetown remains one of those iffy ones.

Did Oda mean it as in Rogues? Or as in prologue? Or is it a case where the Japanese hits right in the middle and he meant both?

I side with Loguetown generally because "prologue" makes more sense as a story device, but its also a complete nonsense word in english, so that one doesn't offend me.

Jinbe/Jimbei/Jimbe/Jinbei are all legit and all the translations got that one different for years until Oda put it down officially. To this day I regularly rotate them out of pure habit because it amuses me to change it every time.

What bothers me, 20 years later, is Nami's joining chapter. "The Second Person". Where the translator failed to realize the connection to Zoro or Sanji's chapters, and made it "The Other Villain". Sigh. That was straight up mistranslating words and context.

There ARE times where you have to go with the native language over the creator's intent though. I'm sorry, "Levely" just is complete nonsense. "Reverie" may not have the "level field" aspect to, but its an actual word.

Also Shilliew, which was correctly translated as Shiryu… then Oda gave the name in English as "Shilliew"... but then years later gave it in english again, this time as the proper "Shiryu". Because he learned better on that one.

AUthor intent rules all 99.99% of the time, but Oda is NOT by any means a native english speaker, so in some cases the translator needs to override him for the native audience.

"How fast the time fleets" and all.

Agree in regard to Reverie; Levely is nonsense. Also disappointed in "The Second Person" being mistranslated. Shiryu, Moria, and Big Mom all had strange romanizations (Shiliew, Moriah, Big Mam) which Oda later reversed.

Another one not mentioned that bothers me to no end is Ponegliff instead of Poneglyph. I really feel like pre-Stephen, particularly for the monthly magazine, Viz was aiming the translation at a younger reader base and thus chose really simple phrasing, absolutely no cursing / swear words, and spelling words phonetically (gliff instead of glyph), but Elbaph in place of Elbaf flies in the face of this theory. It's just baffling on every level. One thing I noticed, and again, maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems less restrictions were placed on Stephen once publication in US Jump Magazine ceased. The final chapter which ran in the magazine was 614, but they included the most recent chapter, 653, in the final issue; It seems to me there's a subtle shift in the translation beginning with Punk Hazard. Assuming perhaps the translations up to that point were prepared for the print magazine. I never really understood why the magazine had more stringent standards than the tankoban or digital chapters. But we even saw them give Boa Hancock an undershirt in the magazine.

Still, no edits to One Piece were as significant as some of the edits made to Naruto; Still kinda annoyed they removed Asuma and shikamaru's cigarettes. Scene just looses its meaning.

[All Fiction]

@Vongola_Boss_XI:

they removed Asuma and shikamaru's cigarettes. Scene just looses its meaning.

Shit, that's a big blow.

Speaking of the "Zoro"/"Zolo" thing. The only thing I can see pressuring Viz to change it back to "Zoro" would be if the Netflix live action (which I assume uses "Zoro") becomes very successful and make the character even more recognizable in the public eye.

[Deicide]

Popularity poll results were favorable for most candidates.

Hancock 7th
Carrot 8th (surprising!)
Yamato 11th

I'm baffled by Carrot rising from 17th in the midterm results to 8th.
And pleased by Hancock going so high (I was expecting 9th).

Checking the regional results, it's clear there were massive campaigns for Carrot and Yamato everywhere.
However, Yamato was kept down mostly in Asia, and Carrot was kept down mostly in Japan. Which are the most populous regions.

(Hancock made to the Top 10 in every region, yay! Considering the character has been missing from canon for over a decade, I call it really impressive.)

Overall: Hancock (7th) > Carrot (8th) > Yamato (11th)

Asia: Hancock (7th) > Carrot (8th) > Yamato (12th)
Oceania: Yamato (3rd) > Carrot (4th) > Hancock (8th)
North America: Carrot (6th) > Yamato (7th) > Hancock (8th)
Japan: Hancock (9th) > Yamato (15th) > Carrot (24th)
Latin America: Carrot (5th) > Yamato (7th) > Hancock (8th)
Europe: Carrot (6th) > Hancock (8th) > Yamato (7th)
Middle East: Carrot (5th) > Yamato (7th) > Hancock (10th)
Africa: Yamato (4th) > Carrot (5th) > Hancock (7th)

[Jaime]

Best thing is the entire presentation called Yamato a HE so you folks the insist on interpretation (more like transphobic) can hopefully move on to the acceptance phase.

[King Cannon]

I admire Deicide's insistence that Hancock is an actual candidate in the running, with OP having 3-4 years remaining.

[Coookie]

@Jaime:

Best thing is the entire presentation called Yamato a HE so you folks the insist on interpretation (more like transphobic) can hopefully move on to the acceptance phase.

I feel like there’s a large intersection with people who don’t go by facts and logic so I don’t think this would change much

[Blissed]

@Jaime:

Best thing is the entire presentation called Yamato a HE so you folks the insist on interpretation (more like transphobic) can hopefully move on to the acceptance phase.

It would be great for people at Arlong Park at the very least to adhere to this already.

[wolfwood]

I mean from previous conversation i have gathered that most of those who hold that position feel that they somehow have a final say on that which supersedes what Oda, the manga and any merchandise might say so i wouldn't get my hopes up

[Jaime]

@wolfwood:

I mean from previous conversation i have gathered that most of those who hold that position feel that they somehow have a final say on that which supersedes what Oda, the manga and any merchandise might say so i wouldn't get my hopes up

Unfortunately hell heard it from some family members to Trans member in our family.

Which again people throw such a tissy about gender acknowledgement where it’s low on the totem poll of issues Trans people are fighting for.

[Deicide]

@King:

I admire Deicide's insistence that Hancock is an actual candidate in the running, with OP having 3-4 years remaining.

I wouldn’t take Oda’s prediction as precise. We are almost in the middle of May and his JUMP Festa 2019 hint for 2020 is still not realized. I take those 3-4 years remaining more like 6-7.

I’ve made the prediction that Hancock losing her title would lead her to be captured then join over a decade ago. I won’t give up now that things actually began to move. Wano epilogue and next arc will be more of use to say if I was right or not. For now, it’s just not in the main plot, so it won’t advance in any way.

[electricmastro]

@Deicide:

I wouldn’t take Oda’s prediction as precise. We are almost in the middle of May and his JUMP Festa 2019 hint for 2020 is still not realized. I take those 3-4 years remaining more like 6-7.

I’ve made the prediction that Hancock losing her title would lead her to be captured then join over a decade ago. I won’t give up now that things actually began to move. Wano epilogue and next arc will be more of use to say if I was right or not. For now, it’s just not in the main plot, so it won’t advance in any way.

I got the feeling that One Piece will continue for quite a while longer after Laugh Tale, with the global developments potentially taking well over 100 chapters to appropriately convey.

[YoungWhite]

@Jaime:

Best thing is the entire presentation called Yamato a HE so you folks the insist on interpretation (more like transphobic) can hopefully move on to the acceptance phase.

If you all don't acknowledge her as Oden then why should anybody else acknowledge her as he/him? Being Oden is the only reason she calls herself a man. If you don't think she's Oden why do you also think we should call her by male pronouns? You can't completely disregard her entire identity but expect everybody to only acknowledge certain parts of it you like.

[electricmastro]

@YoungWhite:

If you all don't acknowledge her as Oden then why should anybody else acknowledge her as he/him? Being Oden is the only reason she calls herself a man. If you don't think she's Oden why do you also think we should call her by male pronouns? You can't completely disregard her entire identity but expect everybody to only acknowledge certain parts of it you like.

I can understand why you’d think that, and I say this while keeping in mind that I go along in referring to Kiku as a woman.

[wolfwood]

Maybe write a strongly worded letter to Oda explaining that you do not accept his use of male pronouns and make him change it.

[YoungWhite]

@wolfwood:

Maybe write a strongly worded letter to Oda explaining that you do not accept his use of male pronouns and make him change it.

I didn't watch the livestream of the popularity poll but did he actually do that? From my understanding it was the people in charge of/hosting it that did that. I don't have any problems with it btw. I just don't think people should be expected to do it outside of those that want to considering the weird/shaky circumstances around it.

[Jaime]

@YoungWhite:

If you all don't acknowledge her as Oden then why should anybody else acknowledge her as he/him? Being Oden is the only reason she calls herself a man. If you don't think she's Oden why do you also think we should call her by male pronouns? You can't completely disregard her entire identity but expect everybody to only acknowledge certain parts of it you like.

Not today satan, not today

[Shiebs]

I’m gonna recognize Yamato as a “he” until he says otherwise

[SeaOfHope]

If Yamato ever drops trying to impersonate someone else, then I'll see "her" as "him." I see no problem with Kiku claiming to be a "woman at heart" despite being physiologically male because she wants to be identified as such. With Yamato, she's going on these intense role playing shenanigans as "Oden" that I don't see her as "him." Just a person cosplaying as a guy and wanting to be referred to by their title.

That I believe is an issue other people have as well.

[Robby]

Oda introduced Yamato as "daughter" to make it clear it wasn't a disguise, typo, Ivonokov thing, body switch with Oden or whatever else.

But since that one time, Yamato explained himself, and literally every character in the series has referred to him as "he".

EVERY character.

Even the villains.

I try to be impartial in this forum because mod reasons, because yes, the "i am Oden" thing muddies it a tiny bit, (maybe just Oda trying to ease the idea in for the audience by starting it with a gag?) but I'm really tired of trying to straddle the middle line and be polite about it.

Unless Yamato says otherwise, go with "he". Otherwise you're just being disrespectful to the character and anyone else that happens to be trans that you refuse to accept the pronouns for. It makes YOU look like an ass, more than it makes Yamato look "confused".

It's been a year, you've had time to be confused, and then time to be educated, and time to understand that not all gender norms are what YOU think they must be.

No one is going to be punished or policed over it for slipping and calling him "she" when he looks the way he looks, if you're casually saying it, no harm no foul.

But when you proudly and adamantly admit you're intentionally being rude and disrespectful about it? That you're choosing to? Going out of your way to be contradictory? That you're right and every character is the series, and the author, are wrong? And being proud of that fact? That's when you slide over into being an arse and that's not cool.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@SeaOfHope:

With Yamato, she's going on these intense role playing shenanigans as "Oden" that I don't see her as "him." Just a person cosplaying as a guy and wanting to be referred to by their title.

He wasn't cosplaying when he met Ace. Or when he got annoyed by one of Ace's crew referring to him as "daughter".

He hasn't gone hard on the Oden shtick since he first appeared, and one gag with Momo.

[SeaOfHope]

For the sake of civility, I'll refrain from offending anyone.

As you said, Yamato claiming to be Oden has muddied the water in how people want to call him. That's not just me being an ass, I'm pointing out why people are themselves conflicted with how to address him.

[Zik]

@electricmastro:

I got the feeling that One Piece will continue for quite a while longer after Laugh Tale, with the global developments potentially taking well over 100 chapters to appropriately convey.

[qimg]https://i.ibb.co/sF5zTSk/B86-BA141-E2-AA-4728-8-D91-293685-C15-C98.png[/qimg]

Reading that I could see Oda pulling a 20th/21st Century Boys.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I have come to the conclusion that whether Yamato is a man or not and what pronoun he should be referred to are separate matters.

The former is still unconfirmed in my eyes, and based on the manga's narrative, I still think Yamato is more likely to be called female by manga canon by the time Wano is over than otherwise. However, "by the time the arc is over" is the key issue, as we have no way of knowing for sure until Oda decides it's finally time to explain the Oden thing, and this could take years to happen with how slowly the manga is progressing. But we still have to pick the pronoun now.

The later issue (the pronoun) is a matter of how the character has manifested the wish to be called so far, and more broadly, how a certain subset of the RL population (trans people) feel represented by that wish. Not using "he" may offend them. And although some may think whether others are offended by that is none of their business, I personally would rather not hurt people if I have the choice, even if I can't quite understand why it hurts. But to me, it's just two letters, so I may as well just not hurt people for something that matters to them.

So yeah, "he" it is, and I apologize for not having used it until now. But I'm still interested on speculating on whether the Oden thing will lead somewhere different or not, and not yet convinced that Yamato is guaranteed to be male.

[YoungWhite]

@Robby:

Oda introduced Yamato as "daughter" to make it clear it wasn't a disguise, typo, Ivonokov thing, body switch with Oden or whatever else.

But since that one time, Yamato explained himself, and literally every character in the series has referred to him as "he".

EVERY character.

Even the villains.

I try to be impartial in this forum because mod reasons, because yes, the "i am Oden" thing muddies it a tiny bit, (maybe just Oda trying to ease the idea in for the audience by starting it with a gag?) but I'm really tired of trying to straddle the middle line and be polite about it.

Unless Yamato says otherwise, go with "he". Otherwise you're just being disrespectful to the character and anyone else that happens to be trans that you refuse to accept the pronouns for. It makes YOU look like an ass, more than it makes Yamato look "confused".

It's been a year, you've had time to be confused, and then time to be educated, and time to understand that not all gender norms are what YOU think they must be.

But this is what my post was talking about.

Yamato's logic is this: I am Oden –-> Oden was a man ---> Therefore I am a man

If you refuse to acknowledge her as Oden, why acknowledge her as a man? If she is not Oden then what makes her a man to you? Her entire basis for being a man was being Oden.

Not acknowledging Yamato as Oden is the most disrespectful to her identity but it's not seen as a problem? Why? How come you don't treat her as if she's Oden?

Before anybody comes at me, i'm not trying to be an "ass", i'm genuinely trying to understand.

[BobLoblaw]

If Kaido can refer to Yamato as his son, then why the heck is everyone else having problems? It seems willful at this point for people to continue referring to Yamato as "she." When Kaido and Luffy are on the same page, then that should be sufficient until and unless something changes in the story.

[electricmastro]

@BobLoblaw:

If Kaido can refer to Yamato as his son, then why the heck is everyone else having problems? It seems willful at this point for people to continue referring to Yamato as "she." When Kaido and Luffy are on the same page, then that should be sufficient until and unless something changes in the story.

Well this is the same manga in which a father said to his daughter that a woman can’t become the strongest swordsman after all, and that he’d want a patriarchy for the future of a dojo instead of a matriarchy.

[FelRes]

@BobLoblaw:

If Kaido can refer to Yamato as his son, then why the heck is everyone else having problems? It seems willful at this point for people to continue referring to Yamato as "she." When Kaido and Luffy are on the same page, then that should be sufficient until and unless something changes in the story.

It's because this character arc isn't concluded, and there are people waiting to see what Yamato goes with in the end. Dropping the idolization thing and embracing being Yamato, a woman, instead of copying Oden? Dropping the Oden thing but keeping the male identity? Will future interaction/flashback reveals more context for how Kaido refers to Yamato(maybe he wanted a son, maybe he respects the gender thing)? It's a peculiar situation that can go in different directions. I don't think most people are trying to be hateful about it, especially given how Kiku is rarely called a he by anyone anymore. It would be a worse case if Yamato's story ended with a clear identity and people refuse to acknowledge it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@YoungWhite:

But this is what my post was talking about.

Yamato's logic is this: I am Oden –-> Oden was a man ---> Therefore I am a man

If you refuse to acknowledge her as Oden, why acknowledge her as a man? If she is not Oden then what makes her a man to you? Her entire basis for being a man was being Oden.

Not acknowledging Yamato as Oden is the most disrespectful to her identity but it's not seen as a problem? Why? How come you don't treat her as if she's Oden?

Before anybody comes at me, i'm not trying to be an "ass", i'm genuinely trying to understand.

From what I got, and everyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Yamato is not a real person, so you can't possibly offend him.

You can offend people who associate themselves with the character, though, and who feel represented by him (media representation is an important matter for certain historically repressed social groups, too). By proxy, they see your refusal to acknowledge the character's gender as a refusal to acknowledge the trans identity as a whole. And this is a problem because those groups have to suffer refusal to acknowledge their identity on an usual basis. Sure, you could argue you are not meaning to say anything about rl people, only the character, but that still affects people emotionally, and at some point you got to stop doing things that harm others.

This doesn't happen to the Oden thing, because, as far as I know, no one suffers prejudice irl for identifying as Oden. But people suffer prejudice for being transgender, so we may as well not contribute to that when we don't have to.

[Zik]

@Dragon:

I have come to the conclusion that whether Yamato is a man or not and what pronoun he should be referred to are separate matters.

The former is still unconfirmed in my eyes, and based on the manga's narrative, I still think Yamato is more likely to be called female by manga canon by the time Wano is over than otherwise. However, "by the time the arc is over" is the key issue, as we have no way of knowing for sure until Oda decides it's finally time to explain the Oden thing, and this could take years to happen with how slowly the manga is progressing. But we still have to pick the pronoun now.

The later issue (the pronoun) is a matter of how the character has manifested the wish to be called so far, and more broadly, how a certain subset of the RL population (trans people) feel represented by that wish. Not using "he" may offend them. And although some may think whether others are offended by that is none of their business, I personally would rather not hurt people if I have the choice, even if I can't quite understand why it hurts. But to me, it's just two letters, so I may as well just not hurt people for something that matters to them.

So yeah, "he" it is, and I apologize for not having used it until now. But I'm still interested on speculating on whether the Oden thing will lead somewhere different or not, and not yet convinced that Yamato is guaranteed to be male.

How can you separate the use of a pronoun based on what gender a person identifies as?

A key thing that seems to be confused here is what gender is. Gender pertains to identifying as a man or woman. It is a social construct. It is not the same thing as your sex, male or female. Yamato can identify as a man or woman but he is and was born female. That's the whole crux of being trans. Male=/= man, female =/= woman. So it further goes she =/= female and he =/= male. Its he = man and she = woman.

I start with that to clarify cuz you cant really separate Yamato identifying as a man and using "he" pronouns to refer to him. Oda has been using "he" pronouns to refer to Yamato. I highly doubt by the end of this arc due to whatever self-realizations and self reflections Yamato has in regards to Oden will lead to Oda suddenly start using "she" pronouns for Yamato.

And I get the whole Oden idolizing thing somehow throws ppl off but I just don't find it to be the likely scenario that instead of Oda creating a trans character with a bit of a gag that he created a character so fixated on Oden that the character also takes on Oden's gender and when that character drops that Oden idolizing/worshipping and embraces themselves they'll drop the gender as well cuz they realize they're really the other gender? It doesn't really track to me that that's the story Oda is actually telling.

[Blissed]

@FelRes:

It's because this character arc isn't concluded, and there are people waiting to see what Yamato goes with in the end. Dropping the idolization thing and embracing being Yamato, a woman, instead of copying Oden? Dropping the Oden thing but keeping the male identity? Will future interaction/flashback reveals more context for how Kaido refers to Yamato(maybe he wanted a son, maybe he respects the gender thing)? It's a peculiar situation that can go in different directions. I don't think most people are trying to be hateful about it, especially given how Kiku is rarely called a he by anyone anymore. It would be a worse case if Yamato's story ended with a clear identity and people refuse to acknowledge it.

I'm sorry, but this argument of wanting to see where Yamato's character arc goes, where they presume that the character will identify as female in the end, so therefore it's okay to use feminine pronouns for him, is frankly irrelevant. All that matters is what's happening right now, and with that in mind, Yamato, Luffy, Kaido and the rest of the Beast Pirates have consistently all referred to Yamato as a man. (Kaido's son/Young Master, Luffy's masculine nickname for him, etc.) Tellingly, Yamato has also visibly reacted negatively to being described as Kaido's daughter in Ch. 999. You've also had people like Arthur, who has a sizable fanbase, has repeatedly gone into great detail of explaining that yes, Yamato is to be viewed as a man. Greg, who a lot of people respect a lot here on AP and would agree is generally more informed than we are, has also used masculine pronouns for him.

So to disregard all that is simply being willfully ignorant at this point, there's just no way around it. As Robby has said, the fandom has had nearly a year now to process how Yamato clearly wants to be identified. We've long since passed the period when the character was literally just introduced (even though he explicitly said I'm Kaido's son but w/e), where okay, one could be forgiven for not knowing how exactly to proceed. Ignoring what the characters in-universe have been saying, which in turn means you're ignoring what Oda himself has clearly intended, is 100% nonsensical at this point. At its most basic level, this is just a blatant lack of reading comprehension.

If Yamato by some chance explicitly identifies as a woman (doubtful of this at this point) by the end of the arc or whatever, sure, those that denied his gender identity will have the last laugh so to speak. But that does not at all change the fact that right now, it's extremely obvious how Yamato identifies. As for the argument about him viewing himself as Oden, both Luffy and the Beast Pirates have shown that it's a separate thing from his gender identity.

So with that in mind, how much longer are we expected to give stubborn fans a grace period here, because it's really getting annoying, and that's putting it very, very politely given how sensitive this topic is.

[electricmastro]

I think that all I’ll say for now without derailing the thread is to wait to see what Yamato’s Vivre Card says and how that clears things up, if nothing else, because honestly, as far as I’m concerned, with the daughter infobox, Yamato’s desperation to carry on Oden’s Will being decidedly different from Kiku’s lifestyle choice, and Kaido existing in the same manga as characters like Koushirou, then it seems like referring to Yamato as male or female isn’t wrong either way going by how the manga is all over the place in doing things. In the event that Yamato’s Vivre Card says something like “Male” or “Female (male at heart)”, then I will then admit to having been objectively 100% wrong, despite my best efforts in being confident in being respectful, and will gladly refer to Yamato as male from there. Until then, I’ll be confident in not clearly guilting myself over this since not even the manga honestly seems clear as to whether I should feel guilty in the first place, and that’s all I’ll say on that here.

[FelRes]

@Blissed:

I'm sorry, but this argument of wanting to see where Yamato's character arc goes, where they presume that the character will identify as female in the end, so therefore it's okay to use feminine pronouns for him, is frankly irrelevant. All that matters is what's happening right now, and with that in mind, Yamato, Luffy, Kaido and the rest of the Beast Pirates have consistently all referred to Yamato as a man. (Kaido's son/Young Master, Luffy's masculine nickname for him, etc.) Tellingly, Yamato has also visibly reacted negatively to being described as Kaido's daughter in Ch. 999. You've also had people like Arthur, who has a sizable fanbase, has repeatedly gone into great detail of explaining that yes, Yamato is to be viewed as a man. Greg, who a lot of people respect a lot here on AP and would agree is generally more informed than we are, has also used masculine pronouns for him.

So to disregard all that is simply being willfully ignorant at this point, there's just no way around it. As Robby has said, the fandom has had nearly a year now to process how Yamato clearly wants to be identified. We've long since passed the period when the character was literally just introduced (even though he explicitly said I'm Kaido's son but w/e), where okay, one could be forgiven for not knowing how exactly to proceed. Ignoring what the characters in-universe have been saying, which in turn means you're ignoring what Oda himself has clearly intended, is 100% nonsensical at this point. At its most basic level, this is just a blatant lack of reading comprehension.

If Yamato by some chance explicitly identifies as a woman (doubtful of this at this point) by the end of the arc or whatever, sure, those that denied his gender identity will have the last laugh so to speak. But that does not at all change the fact that right now, it's extremely obvious how Yamato identifies. As for the argument about him viewing himself as Oden, both Luffy and the Beast Pirates have shown that it's a separate thing from his gender identity.

So with that in mind, how much longer are we expected to give stubborn fans a grace period here, because it's really getting annoying, and that's putting it very, very politely given how sensitive this topic is.

You can't really tell other people how to determine what affects their thoughts though. Not everyone follows or cares about what people like Arthur and Greg say. Likewise, it might not matter to someone what the in-universe characters are saying, rather how they read where the narrative is going. But if those apply to you, that's fine. It's still based on speculation no matter what you call Yamato, and not everyone is interpreting the same stuff (ie the Ace flashback bit) in the same way. It's not ignorance if someone disagrees on something, everyone's using some evidence for their own conclusion. You're saying last laugh like everyone is waiting to go "HA I TOLD YOU", but you don't need to be that jaded about it as that's not everyone's intent (and I understand there are some people who do want to be that mean-spirited about it). Obviously it's gonna be a debate until the arc concludes or Yamato makes whatever declaration, which isn't helped by this raid being really long. I don't really think mods making announcements or arguments like this are gonna change anyone's opinions on anything.

[kevinds]

Thank you Robby. I greatly appreciate how you handle this topic in this thread and others.

@YoungWhite:

But this is what my post was talking about.

Yamato's logic is this: I am Oden –-> Oden was a man ---> Therefore I am a man

If you refuse to acknowledge her as Oden, why acknowledge her as a man? If she is not Oden then what makes her a man to you? Her entire basis for being a man was being Oden.

Not acknowledging Yamato as Oden is the most disrespectful to her identity but it's not seen as a problem? Why? How come you don't treat her as if she's Oden?

Before anybody comes at me, i'm not trying to be an "ass", i'm genuinely trying to understand.

There are a couple of false presumptions here that are leading to a false conclusion. First is a grammatical one. There’s an assumption that grammatical gender for pronouns (he/she/it being masculine/feminine/neuter respectively) MUST match biological sex, which is a social construction. We just grow up believing this is true because those around us speak this way, so it’s circular logic. There is nothing in he/she/it that must match biological sex, we just assume so because English is a gender neutral language outside of pronouns and a few odd nouns. In that vacuum of meaning, we force a biological sex into pronouns when they didn’t always have that purpose. In Old English and Germanic languages, nouns have grammatical gender. You wouldn’t call a spear “it,” you would call it “he.” Does a spear have genitals to check if that’s true? Do you see how absurd that sounds? Grammatical gender in Old English pronouns was used for biological sex, yes, but it mostly functioned to tell us how to conjugate nouns.

In Modern English, pronouns became associated with identity partly because they lost their grammatical usage with nouns. He/she now only refers to humans and animals, and “it” (the neutral gender) refers to things and ideas. You can even test this. Call someone’s baby or dog or cat an “it” and see what response you get. While correct grammatically, pronouns carry identity with them now. Yet English speakers cannot express identity through the first-person “I” like Japanese speakers can. The only way English speakers can express identity through language is the use of third-person pronouns. With that in mind, can you see how it can be viewed as oppressive to tell someone what their identity is instead of listening to them? They don’t have the first-person to reassert their identity at all.

Now that leads to the second false assumption, and that is that Yamato only believes he is a man because he believes he is Oden. Yamato’s narrator box, the one everyone harkens to as proof he is actually a she, describes him as “self-styled.” That little bit is important because it gives Yamato agency. Everything must pass through Yamato before he expresses it, so he is in full control. If you say he’s only cosplaying or larping, that removes that agency which Oda felt the need to include in his narrator box. Yamato isn’t wearing an orange kimono, doesn’t dye his hair or style it like Oden, doesn’t wield two swords or attack with “Paradise Waterfall.” Yamato has an identity, but if you remove his agency by claiming he’s cosplaying and call him a “her,” it’s no wonder you can’t see it.

Lastly, that leads to what gender to refer to him with. That’s just a matter of respect. You call your parents and grandparents with honorifics. You call your teachers Mr. or Mrs. or Dr. according to their identity. You only drop them when they say it’s ok. For gender, you just respect the person and call them what they want to be called at this moment in time. If that changes, guess what? You can change your pronouns later. It’s not difficult unless you want it to be. Literally everyone in the manga calls Yamato he (note: daughter =/= she as discussed above with gendered pronouns), Yamato uses masculine first-person pronouns, so just show some respect. If you really can’t get over it, at least use they/them as gender neutral so you’re not being oppressive, whether intentional or not.

[Blissed]

@FelRes:

You can't really tell other people how to determine what affects their thoughts though. Not everyone follows or cares about what people like Arthur and Greg say. Likewise, it might not matter to someone what the in-universe characters are saying, rather how they read where the narrative is going. But if those apply to you, that's fine. It's still based on speculation no matter what you call Yamato, and not everyone is interpreting the same stuff (ie the Ace flashback bit) in the same way. It's not ignorance if someone disagrees on something, everyone's using some evidence for their own conclusion. You're saying last laugh like everyone is waiting to go "HA I TOLD YOU", but you don't need to be that jaded about it as that's not everyone's intent (and I understand there are some people who do want to be that mean-spirited about it). Obviously it's gonna be a debate until the arc concludes or Yamato makes whatever declaration, which isn't helped by this raid being really long. I don't really think mods making announcements or arguments like this are gonna change anyone's opinions on anything.

I can't force people here to do anything, but I can certainly judge them for it, and call people out from time to time. Only reason I said anything today is because of Jaime mentioning that the livestream was consistent in viewing Yamato as a man. By every reasonable metric, as of Ch. 1011, Yamato is clearly to be viewed as a man at this point in time. Whether it's going by the actual text of the manga regarding how characters in-universe view Yamato, including Yamato himself, or relying on English speakers that are fluent with Japanese, they've all made Oda's intent very clear here. Literally the only thing people have to stand on is Yamato's intro box, which was Oda's unfortunately misguided attempt to make it clear what Yamato's biological gender was. Outside of that, Yamato has been consistently viewed as a male, with the character himself straight up saying he is Kaido's son. Again, Yamato himself introduced himself as "Kaido's son." This is simply not debatable, nor is it "speculation". So yea, again, I'll judge people that refuse to acknowledge basic reality nearly a year after the character was introduced. Given all the evidence available, people who genuinely believe Yamato should be viewed as a woman absolutely do not have the same standing as those that view him as a man. I mean, damn, you talk about needing Yamato to need to make a declaration, when again, the character himself has already made it clear how he wants to be viewed.

As for the last laugh bit, not to be rude, but I think that is a naive outlook. There is absolutely a good chunk of fans, several that I've seen for myself on social media, who are very much hoping they can do a big ol' "I told you so" if their theory regarding Yamato's alleged character arc pans out. It is what it is, it's not being jaded to recognize one of the more uglier parts of the fanbase. Just look at how people initially treated the Kiku reveal for example. Sure, it doesn't apply to literally every naysayer that wants more "proof", but the fans that are currently being insanely stubborn and crass regarding Yamato's gender identity are realistically not going to give a fuck about being told that they're being dismissive/transphobic in the here and now. Even here in Arlong Park, where people have repeatedly pleaded and explained why it's harmless to use masculine pronouns for Yamato in the meantime, several of the people in this community have decided to ignore all that. If the end result is Yamato viewing themselves as a woman by the end of the arc, then that's all that will matter to them, in their eyes they will have "won", and to them it'll mean that anyone arguing that Yamato was a man was stupid for ever claiming that. As for myself, in a vacuum I would absolutely have no issue with Yamato theoretically later on viewing himself as a woman, because I have no reason to blatantly ignore what the actual text states. But outside of that vacuum, I have to acknowledge the unpleasant reality of what it would mean for Oda to backtrack on Yamato's current gender identity.

Lastly, my bit about the grace period wasn't really me implying that the mods/admins alone need to take some impassioned stand (though it would be nice, and I do appreciate posts like Robby's) I was talking more about what are we as a community going to do whenever someone willfully (not accidentally, I can understand someone occasionally slipping up) decides to misgender Yamato. Like if it does become irrefutable in your eyes, as well as others, I hope we can at the very least call out people denying basic reality. As Robby said, it's really frustrating having to be polite about all this.

[Robby]

The worldwide shown tv special that had every single REAL person presenting referring to Yamato as "he". No discussion or confusion, they were all solid on that.

And the twitter comments to that for anime only watchers has been "who the heck is Yamato?"

So, even though there could potentially be confusion to the audience that hasn't met the character yet, they STILL went with "he". Nonchalantly all around, no questioning it. Vetted through official OP staff and editors.

And n the spinoff high school manga, Yamato is wearing a boy's uniform.

When all the media OUTSIDE of the manga is running with it, I think its safe to assume Oda made the point clear to his editors.

Just like he made it clear in the the chapter after Yamato unmasked.

I understand being confused in week 2, given the narration box. I used "she" then too. But after week 3? Not so much. And week 35? You're willfully ignoring what's on the page at that point.

If it changes? Then it changes. In the meantime, take the person's word for it, they know how they feel better than you know how they feel.

@electricmastro:

Well this is the same manga in which a father said to his daughter that a woman can’t become the strongest swordsman after all, and that he’d want a patriarchy for the future of a dojo instead of a matriarchy.

And what a coincidence, that guy happened to be from Wano. The very place we're now seeing has outdated views on gender and what a woman can be, and what it means to be a man.

Almost as if Yamato is fixing a two decade old wrong by proving someone physically female can hang at the top as well as any man.

The entire point of Zoro's flashback was that belief was wrong. Otherwise there'd be no reason for Zoro to carry on Kuina's dream to become the best in the world. Because if Kuina was going to top out in the middle, then nothing is proven by Zoro becoming the best. Kuina's dream isn't passed on or preserved in any way if she was always going to fail. Zoro believed she could become the very best (and in a world of devil fruits and haki and battle forms , she could have, raw muscle was never the only concern.) and that's the dream he's trying to achieve for her.

Kuina dying early and not becoming the greatest in the world was a tragedy, not a foregone conclusion. She had an emotional bad night where she didn't see a future… and then never had a chance to overcome that weakness, that moment of doubt.

[Cockycent]

The anime has chosen to emphasize certain things more than Oda did. I've found this arc to be a bit more spoiler ish or at least more bold in hinting towards things that Oda did less aggressively. I'm hearing that Yamato might get some of that treatment in the coming episodes. I wonder if it's just him poking his legs out more or just the coloring of his attire or hair that gets a shot. It's Shinobu's moment here as well. Would be interesting if the anime gives him more of a Momo retainer hint.

[electricmastro]

@Robby:

And what a coincidence, that guy happened to be from Wano. The very place we're now seeing has outdated views on gender and what a woman can be, and what it means to be a man.

Ah, so in that case, then I’m sure you’d understand the idea of Kaido also wanting a patriarchy to succeed him as shogun, and that he has been abusive to the point that he’d beat up Yamato into going along with what Kaido himself wants and that his subordinates go along with it too out of fear, no?

[FelRes]

@Blissed:

I can't force people here to do anything, but I can certainly judge them for it, and call people out from time to time. Only reason I said anything today is because of Jaime mentioning that the livestream was consistent in viewing Yamato as a man. By every reasonable metric, as of Ch. 1011, Yamato is clearly to be viewed as a man at this point in time. Whether it's going by the actual text of the manga regarding how characters in-universe view Yamato, including Yamato himself, or relying on English speakers that are fluent with Japanese, they've all made Oda's intent very clear here. Literally the only thing people have to stand on is Yamato's intro box, which was Oda's unfortunately misguided attempt to make it clear what Yamato's biological gender was. Outside of that, Yamato has been consistently viewed as a male, with the character himself straight up saying he is Kaido's son. Again, Yamato himself introduced himself as "Kaido's son." This is simply not debatable, nor is it "speculation". So yea, again, I'll judge people that refuse to acknowledge basic reality nearly a year after the character was introduced. Given all the evidence available, people who genuinely believe Yamato should be viewed as a woman absolutely do not have the same standing as those that view him as a man. I mean, damn, you talk about needing Yamato to need to make a declaration, when again, the character himself has already made it clear how he wants to be viewed.

As for the last laugh bit, not to be rude, but I think that is a naive outlook. There is absolutely a good chunk of fans, several that I've seen for myself on social media, who are very much hoping they can do a big ol' "I told you so" if their theory regarding Yamato's alleged character arc pans out. It is what it is, it's not being jaded to recognize one of the more uglier parts of the fanbase. Just look at how people initially treated the Kiku reveal for example. Sure, it doesn't apply to literally every naysayer that wants more "proof", but the fans that are currently being insanely stubborn and crass regarding Yamato's gender identity are realistically not going to give a fuck about being told that they're being dismissive/transphobic in the here and now. Even here in Arlong Park, where people have repeatedly pleaded and explained why it's harmless to use masculine pronouns for Yamato in the meantime, several of the people in this community have decided to ignore all that. If the end result is Yamato viewing themselves as a woman by the end of the arc, then that's all that will matter to them, in their eyes they will have "won", and to them it'll mean that anyone arguing that Yamato was a man was stupid for ever claiming that. As for myself, in a vacuum I would absolutely have no issue with Yamato theoretically later on viewing himself as a woman, because I have no reason to blatantly ignore what the actual text states. But outside of that vacuum, I have to acknowledge the unpleasant reality of what it would mean for Oda to backtrack on Yamato's current gender identity.

Lastly, my bit about the grace period wasn't really me implying that the mods/admins alone need to take some impassioned stand (though it would be nice, and I do appreciate posts like Robby's) I was talking more about what are we as a community going to do whenever someone willfully (not accidentally, I can understand someone occasionally slipping up) decides to misgender Yamato. Like if it does become irrefutable in your eyes, as well as others, I hope we can at the very least call out people denying basic reality. As Robby said, it's really frustrating having to be polite about all this.

You can judge all you want, just know other people can judge you as well and know when to not let it get to you. You can keep repeating these metrics all you want, people already have their own to base their opinions on so it's not really productive. Especially when so many biases are presented, ie language, social issue factor, how someone interprets certain lines, reliability of person making their point. For example I can't take anything Arthur says seriously as I felt like he was inserting his own thoughts and interpretations into those vivre card summaries, and then there was that poor translation fiasco, meaning you kinda have to be careful who you listen to, especially when you don't fluently know Japanese.

I agree and understand that there are people who are unpleasant about having an I-Told-You-So mindset with Yamato's gender. There's a big I-Told-You-So problem with the fanbase in general I feel, though that's another topic altogether. I generally avoid this kind of Yamato discussion since people get caught up in their position and get hostile or judgmental over it, when it really shouldn't be like that as it's an interesting scenario and even I can't decide which I lean more toward sometimes. It's prolly best to consider an individual's intent when they say something you disagree with, and no longer engage with them if it turns out they have a petty attitude.

If someone misgenders Yamato after it's made 100% actually clear what terms to use, and everyone's had a chance to actually read that material, then iunno I don't care how you or anyone else reacts to that lol. They'd be a proper dick to keep it up at that point.

[Zack]

@Cockycent:

The anime has chosen to emphasize certain things more than Oda did. I've found this arc to be a bit more spoiler ish or at least more bold in hinting towards things that Oda did less aggressively. I'm hearing that Yamato might get some of that treatment in the coming episodes. I wonder if it's just him poking his legs out more or just the coloring of his attire or hair that gets a shot. It's Shinobu's moment here as well. Would be interesting if the anime gives him more of a Momo retainer hint.

Yamato's legs poking out was technically already part of the manga.

[TLC]

@Robby:

Kuina dying early and not becoming the greatest in the world was a tragedy, not a foregone conclusion. She had an emotional bad night where she didn't see a future… and then never had a chance to overcome that weakness, that moment of doubt.

Wait…I'm sorry for zooming in this one point when you made a bunch of other really good points but you just rocked my world when you said this....so Kuina didn't fall down the stairs?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Zik:

How can you separate the use of a pronoun based on what gender a person identifies as?

A key thing that seems to be confused here is what gender is. Gender pertains to identifying as a man or woman. It is a social construct. It is not the same thing as your sex, male or female. Yamato can identify as a man or woman but he is and was born female. That's the whole crux of being trans. Male=/= man, female =/= woman. So it further goes she =/= female and he =/= male. Its he = man and she = woman.

I start with that to clarify cuz you cant really separate Yamato identifying as a man and using "he" pronouns to refer to him. Oda has been using "he" pronouns to refer to Yamato. I highly doubt by the end of this arc due to whatever self-realizations and self reflections Yamato has in regards to Oden will lead to Oda suddenly start using "she" pronouns for Yamato.

And I get the whole Oden idolizing thing somehow throws ppl off but I just don't find it to be the likely scenario that instead of Oda creating a trans character with a bit of a gag that he created a character so fixated on Oden that the character also takes on Oden's gender and when that character drops that Oden idolizing/worshipping and embraces themselves they'll drop the gender as well cuz they realize they're really the other gender? It doesn't really track to me that that's the story Oda is actually telling.

I get the stuff you explained in the first paragraph, the problem is that I don't think we actually 100% know what Yamato identifies with. The normal criterium that should be used for this is asking the person what they want to be identified as. Yamato said he "wants to be Oden, so might as well be a man". There is a decent chance Yamato decides he is not Oden later in the story, because that's a common plot point in coming of age stories (realizing you are your own person). That may lead to Yamato also dropping the "he" pronoun, or to Yamato realizing he was transgender all along and the Oden thing was just a way to justify that. I see both as possible, and I put a lot more weight in that piece of evidence (what Yamato said) than in what streamers are saying or what appeared in some high school spin-off.

I'm fine with using "he" because, so far, Yamato's request is to be a "he", and that should be respected regardless of motive. But I also believe that motive could change, and only Oda knows whether it will change or not. This is different from a real life person who tells you they are a "he" and you just understand they are transgender, it's a fictional character whose identity is only defined in the mind of a RL mangaka who knows how this character will feel in the future. And no, I don't intend to do a "take that" or anything of the sort if Yamato changes his preferred gender during the story. I just think it makes logical sense to consider that as a possibility.

[Zik]

@Dragon:

I get the stuff you explained in the first paragraph, the problem is that I don't think we actually 100% know what Yamato identifies with. The normal criterium that should be used for this is asking the person what they want to be identified as.

I think we all do know 100% cuz as you even said Yamato wants the pronouns of he and him used:

I'm fine with using "he" because, so far, Yamato's request is to be a "he", and that should be respected regardless of motive.

But what I feel supersedes that is that creator and author, Oda, is referring to Yamato as a he and has all the characters refer to him as such. Yamato even has a negative reaction when someone refers to him as a woman.

I think what Oda writes in those details trumps the rest.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Zik:

I think we all do know 100% cuz as you even said Yamato wants the pronouns of he and him used:

Because he is pretending to be Oden.

That warrants respecting Yamato's current request, but doesn't eliminate the logical possibility that Yamato will change his mind later, or that this request is only related to the Oden thing and not to what gender Yamato actually feels like. If Yamato is a cisgender person cosplaying as Oden, the plot still makes sense.

@Zik:

But what I feel supersedes that is that creator and author, Oda, is referring to Yamato as a he and has all the characters refer to him as such. Yamato even has a negative reaction when someone refers to him as a woman.

I think what Oda writes in those details trumps the rest.

When did Oda actually refer to Yamato as a "he"? Did he say that in some interview?

And I don't think little details trump what Yamato himself said, no.

[Coookie]

I think Oda hasn't used "he" as a pronoun for Yamato directly (Japanese don't actually use third-person gendered pronouns like Westerners do). Rather than that you have Kaidou refer to Yamato as his son, Yamato using "boku" instead of "watashi" which, while not impossible to be used by girls, is predominantly used by boys, then there’s Luffy using the same nickname pattern that he also uses for other guys, and I can only assume that Stephen checked with the editors which pronoun he should use for Yamato since permanently avoiding it is pretty much impossible. Yamato using the boys' school uniform in that school spin-off, the media team consistently using "he" during the popularity poll livestream…
The only two to three instances where Yamato's female body is acknowledged are his intro box, one of the Spades Pirates referring to Yamato as Kaidou's daughter which got him visibly annoyed and Luffy's surprised reaction when Yamato unmasks himself and then immediately just goes along with it, no further questions asked.

Honestly this gender debate is absolutely pointless because whoever still uses female pronouns for Yamato is not going to change their mind when nothing so far has. But I'd still like to throw in that whether or not Yamato is actually trans or not, if him identifying Oden will stick around or if he'll drop it after Wano (if it's even still relevant after the Straw Hats leave Wano), none of it matters for his choice of pronouns. If those are what he likes to go by and pretty much everyone in-universe and from the official side of things consistently sticks to it, then I don't see anything left to question. If it changes down the road, fine, then we can reassess it as well. In the meantime, people can go "AcKcHuAlLy I rEfUsE tO aCkNoWlEdGe YaMaTo'S dEcIsIoN" however much they want, it won't change what the manga and its creators present and it also won't make them retroactively right if things should change at some point.

[Robby]

@TLC:

Wait…I'm sorry for zooming in this one point when you made a bunch of other really good points but you just rocked my world when you said this....so Kuina didn't fall down the stairs?

A tragedy is a tragedy. Any life ended young is sad. A life that could have been the best in the world? That died undefeated, but before ever having the chance to challenge the bigger world?

Extra tragedy.

Unless you go in for the "she committed suicide and they didn't tell Zoro the truth" theory, which is kind of valid, but yikes.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@electricmastro:

Ah, so in that case, then I’m sure you’d understand the idea of Kaido also wanting a patriarchy to succeed him as shogun, and that he has been abusive to the point that he’d beat up Yamato into going along with what Kaido himself wants and that his subordinates go along with it too out of fear, no?

Kaidou's not from Wano, and given that he let Orochi run things, he doesn't really care about the title either. And he has two women in his "big six" team. And among his top two is Queen that… well. Queen. And he's fine being equal with Big Mom.

Sexism isn't one of the traits Kaidou has shown at this point. Others in Wano? Including hero characters like Kinemon? Very much so. But not Kaidou.

Abusive? Maybe, given the exploding handcuffs. But we don't know what led to that setup in the first place. ANd given it was the case for at least three years?

[HeartOfDarkness]

@Coookie:

Honestly this gender debate is absolutely pointless .

I love how this is being portrayed as a thing that anyone is actively pursuing.

And not a thing that plenty of mods and others are trying to shove down other people's throat just because they aren't exactly drinking some trendy koolaid.

Like if you guys want to be mature and have a discussion then cool. But the piss-poor attempt at trying to downplay an aspect that has been left fairly ambiguous is just laughably bad and downright fifth-grader logic at its finest.

If you guys have secret notes from Oda in terms of what the character is actually supposed to be beyond an already established major aspect of Yamato (which is wanting to be ODEN) then feel free to share.

Otherwise, this is one becoming a one-side argument where one-side is very clearly waiting and saying that other people can call Yamato "he" while they call Yamato "she", while the other side pisses themselves over the fact that someone else is having a different interpretation to a thing that is open to interpretation.

And seriously stop bringing strawman arguments with real trans people. They aren't relevant to the discussion about Yamato, a fictional character created by Oda for One Piece. If you claim to have some secret insight into Yamato's character then again feel free to share with the rest of the class with actual and factual evidence that isn't coincidentally ignoring major character trait and then focusing on the small details.

Jesus, this is seriously like Middle-school kids trying to gang up on someone for not repeating whatever they want them to repeat.

[Coookie]

See? Haters gonna hate and attack other people, complaining about strawmen arguments, victimizing themselves as having things shoved down their throats when it was already explained that no one will be forced to use certain pronouns or has to be corrected.