Why wouldn't they get one on one fights until Teach? Is there no space in between to have arcs like that? @shiens
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima)
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This arc reminds me more of Dressrosa in terms of scale and number of characters involved. Oda also really doesn't seem particularly interested in streamlining the battle / action segment of the arc. The Straw Hats arrived on Onigashima over 20 chapters ago and we're just now getting to the start of the fight with Kaido. But Oda also added the 'ticking clock' element with Onigashima rising into the sky just 3 chapters prior. There's still stuff to be explained about Kaido and Yamato's backstory that may be critical to this particular story (don't expect a full Rocks / God Valley flashback until later).
I think the action will probably wrap around the end of the year. Just a guess. I don't even know that there will be one on one fights, I just think this is another Birdcage scenario where there are still tons of characters standing on both sides, a newly introduced Devil Fruit induced ticking clock element, backstory for the main antagonist yet to be explained, and unresolved plot threads remaining on the mainland. Plus the Kurozumi stuff still unresolved. I highly doubt Orochi is actually dead and the fact Oda hasn't followed up on him yet tells me Oda wants readers to be focused on Kaido and Big Mom. Could be wrong about that, I just feel like he wants us to forget Orochi for the time being so that we'll be surprised when he rears his ugly heads.
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How many chapters of fighting were there at Enies Lobby? I just hope we got somewhat satisfying fights, I know Oda wants to hurry things up but it’ll be sad if the crew doesn’t get time to shine in this arc since the crew likely won’t get one on one fights like this again until the face off with the Black Beard pirates…... which will be at the end of the series
Depends on what you mean with fighting. The beginning of confrontation? Chapter 375. Chapter 429 they left Enies Lobby, 430 was Merry stuff, and then you got 11 chapters of post Enies Lobby stuff in W7 which included Franky joining, Garp, the world´s reaction and so forth.
If you are talking about the individual match-ups starting and ending, not that long. Oda spends much more time for setting up the match-ups than doing the match-ups. You had the shackles fiasco with Zoro and Usopp, you had Sanji and Kalifa, you had Nami getting confronted by Kumadori at first before she went to Kalifa, but the individual match-ups started with chapter 401.
So if you think the match-ups are all set (Sanji vs Black Maria is a no-go, Chopper and Brook don´t have opponents yet, Nami and Usopp are trying to get the courage to confront P1 and Ulti again, Big Mom´s role is not clear yet, Drake is still there as well, Jack might come back, the Wa No forces of Samurai and Ninja have not played any role so far, Momo and Orochi have not clashed yet, Yamato has to confront her father….) it´s still around 30 chapters with just the fighting. And considering Oda likes to finish the individual match-ups before he even gets to the meat of Luffy´s fight, at least usually, i think we need some development for the other Strawhats first.So like Robby said, the battle concluding this year, unless there is a huge curve-ball, is not unlikely, but Wa No as an arc with all the things that have to happen post-battle? Doubt it.
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I expect a lot of off-paneling for most of the fights to get those wrapped up this year. Oda's timeline still lines up with his "5 years" and "80%" comment. If we were at 80% at the start of Wano, which was two and a half years ago, then I'm guessing we'll be around 85% complete by the end of Wano?
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That would leave somewhere like 4 (maybe 5) years for Elbaf, Laugh Tale, and the Final War. Either Oda's gonna speedrun through everything or that 80% number was off. -
I still run on the assumption that, based on Oda's track record of badly guessing his timetables, and the sheer ammount of stuff we have left, that there's still about7 years of story left. Even if he was ready to be done in 6 they'd ask him to stretch it out to the 30th anniversary, even if it meant only having a chapter every two weeks or something.
Remaining Wano-1 year
Elbaf-1 year
Laugh Tale-1 year (Includes Joy Boy flashback)
Odds and ends-1 year (Includes Vegapunk, Revolutionaries, return of Enel, surprise islands, Shanks, world movements, Vivi, etc.)
Final war- 3 years (It's going to take time to give every character ever one last big moment, even if its Marineford style mess)Barring Elbaf and Laugh Tale actually being pretty speedy Amazon Lilly style 10-20 chapter affairs, it's just hard to see it wrapping any faster than than that unless he really, really cuts a lot more corners.
It'll be a lot easier to judge when we see how and when Wano ends.
That said, Oda obviously knows whats actually left better than we do and he keeps doubling down on five years… so I wouldn't bet on it going much longer than seven years for the 30th. (If he was still doing chapters every week of the year I'd believe the five estimate. But 40 chapters a year not so much.)
But the fact his original 5 year estimate has already been cheated into being 6 from when he replied to a question about it, is telling.
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I lean toward the interpretation of the volume 96 SBS that Oda's timetable is about reaching One Piece with the final war happening after that. I think the timeline makes a lot more sense when you consider that, by the time Wano ends, Oda will have spent nearly 9 years on Kaido and Big Mom.
A 'War for Supremacy' in the New World / race to find One Piece culminating in the conflict with Shanks and Blackbeard, discovery of One Piece / revelation of the True History, then the final war including all the endgame stuff like Zunesha, destruction of Fishman Island, Ancient Weapons, etc.
Leaves room for a couple small arcs and a substantial Elbaf arc before Laugh Tale.
This is just my rough guess (and obviously, I have no real idea)
-Vegapunk arc
-Elbaf
-Lodestar
-God Valley
-Laugh Tale
-Final WarI don't think the last Road Poneglyph is on Elbaf; Linlin stole hers from somewhere and I think Elbaf fits the bill. My guess for final Road Poneglyph location is God Valley. Allows Oda to bring the story full circle to God Valley. I think Shanks was a child of the Celestial Dragons rescued by Roger (Roger left the Grand Line for 10 years after God Valley, then returned with Shanks, Shanks is 39 years old (born one year before God Valley), and is basically a fated enemy of Teach who has, by blood or belief, seemingly inherited Xebec's will. Bringing the conflict with Luffy, Shanks, and Blackbeard (and Buggy) to God Valley would seem pretty fitting in my opinion.
I think Lodestar and Laugh Tale could be short information heavy arcs. Laugh Tale dominated by a True History flashback.
I could be off base - this is just my personal reading of the story. I feel like all told, there's probably closer to 10 years left given Oda's current publication rate. Maybe a little over. I still think we'll end around 1400 - 1500, which has been my estimate since the time skip. I just feel like we're still on that pace. I think about 5 years (post-Wano) until One Piece is discovered seems about right. Like I said, I could be wrong.
I just think there's really two conflicts remaining: First, who gets to be Pirate King - the War for Supremacy concluding with the coronation of the next Pirate King. Then the final war, to 'shoulder the burden of history'. One Piece was left behind for a specific purpose. I believe all of the Straw Hat Pirates dreams are inherently connected to fulfilling that purpose. All of that is stuff we'll see after One Piece is discovered and the history is revealed so that the Straw Hats can go beyond the Roger Pirates and finish what Roger could not.
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I still run on the assumption that, based on Oda's track record of badly guessing his timetables, and the sheer ammount of stuff we have left, that there's still about7 years of story left. Even if he was ready to be done in 6 they'd ask him to stretch it out to the 30th anniversary, even if it meant only having a chapter every two weeks or something.
Remaining Wano-1 year
Elbaf-1 year
Laugh Tale-1 year (Includes Joy Boy flashback)
Odds and ends-1 year (Includes Vegapunk, Revolutionaries, return of Enel, surprise islands, Shanks, world movements, Vivi, etc.)
Final war- 3 years (It's going to take time to give every character ever one last big moment, even if its Marineford style mess)No epilogue ?
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So… I made up my mind. No matter, what the manga tells I will refuse to accept Yamato as the new - and more important last - nakama until they sail off with the Thousand Sunny. I made my bet regarding who will join next months ago and I am going to stick with that decision. And if my ship is sinking so be it but I will go down proudly believing there is still a chance of Carrot joining until the Sunny leaves without the bunny mink.
That Yamato will leave Wano is obvious (this tidbit was stated too often for them to change their mind), but I still find it hard to believe they will join the crew. Something about Yamato is simply not sitting right with me. Furthermore, how much time in-universe did Yamato actually spent with the crew? Like 10 min with Luffy and one with Franky? Don't get me wrong but each and everyone, who joined so far at least spent some time with a good part of the crew beforehand ( - aside from Robin... She is a dealbreaker I know! On the other side Robin only became really a part of the crew after Enies Lobby...). Yamato has stories about Luffy from Ace and whatever they read in the newspapers about the Strawhats. That's not what I would call a personal bond based on interaction.
As it stands so far, Yamato is doing more bonding with Momo than the Strawhats.
And I am not foolish enough to think there isn't enough time for Yamato to bond with the crew. But if it ends up Yamato barely interacting with the crew until (meaning not while they are fighting - because they protect Momo and has his own fight somewhere else - and only at) the big feast after all the fights are done and them joining afterward… That will still feel iffy to me.As much as Carrot's chances are sinking, there is one point where she is toping the other two most discussed contenders for the last crewmember, and that is interaction with the crew! She sailed with half the crew for more than a month and at least met the other half personally at one point or another.
Tama has the second most interaction with the crew (mostly Luffy, Zorro and Chopper iirc). But being honest, I don't believe there is a real chance for Tama to join. She is too young - which is a sure No for me personally, plus it goes against the established point Shanks made: kids don't belong on a pirate ship -, has shown no fighting skills (there has been a lot of talks about said skills, but so far all the fighting for Tama has been done by her tamed animals or somebody else) and I don't know how going the Strawhats is going to help her achieve her dream of becoming a bewitching kunoichi. The most likely thing to joining I can see happening is Luffy renewing Ace's promise to Tama.
And well... Yamato... Like said above Luffy and briefly Franky...
By the way, isn't there a threat where it would be possible to discuss how long One Piece will be running and what's going to happen? :wassat: This topic keeps popping up in different threats but I can't remember if there is in regards to the subject itself.
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So… I made up my mind. No matter, what the manga tells I will refuse to accept Yamato as the new - and more important last - nakama until they sail off with the Thousand Sunny. I made my bet regarding who will join next months ago and I am going to stick with that decision. And if my ship is sinking so be it but I will go down proudly believing there is still a chance of Carrot joining until the Sunny leaves without the bunny mink.
That Yamato will leave Wano is obvious (this tidbit was stated too often for them to change their mind), but I still find it hard to believe they will join the crew. Something about Yamato is simply not sitting right with me. Furthermore, how much time in-universe did Yamato actually spent with the crew? Like 10 min with Luffy and one with Franky? Don't get me wrong but each and everyone, who joined so far at least spent some time with a good part of the crew beforehand ( - aside from Robin... She is a dealbreaker I know! On the other side Robin only became really a part of the crew after Enies Lobby...). Yamato has stories about Luffy from Ace and whatever they read in the newspapers about the Strawhats. That's not what I would call a personal bond based on interaction.
As it stands so far, Yamato is doing more bonding with Momo than the Strawhats.
And I am not foolish enough to think there isn't enough time for Yamato to bond with the crew. But if it ends up Yamato barely interacting with the crew until (meaning not while they are fighting - because they protect Momo and has his own fight somewhere else - and only at) the big feast after all the fights are done and them joining afterward… That will still feel iffy to me.As much as Carrot's chances are sinking, there is one point where she is toping the other two most discussed contenders for the last crewmember, and that is interaction with the crew! She sailed with half the crew for more than a month and at least met the other half personally at one point or another.
Tama has the second most interaction with the crew (mostly Luffy, Zorro and Chopper iirc). But being honest, I don't believe there is a real chance for Tama to join. She is too young - which is a sure No for me personally, plus it goes against the established point Shanks made: kids don't belong on a pirate ship -, has shown no fighting skills (there has been a lot of talks about said skills, but so far all the fighting for Tama has been done by her tamed animals or somebody else) and I don't know how going the Strawhats is going to help her achieve her dream of becoming a bewitching kunoichi. The most likely thing to joining I can see happening is Luffy renewing Ace's promise to Tama.
And well... Yamato... Like said above Luffy and briefly Franky...
By the way, isn't there a threat where it would be possible to discuss how long One Piece will be running and what's going to happen? :wassat: This topic keeps popping up in different threats but I can't remember if there is in regards to the subject itself.
Just for arguments sake, she said in chapter 999 she has been working on becoming a kunoichi, so maybe we will see some ninja techniques soon :ninja:
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No epilogue ?
That falls under odds and ends or final war. I don't think that will be three year of nonstop fighting. (Abotu a year for the 1 on 1 BB fights shonen law demands, the rest for plot and ancient weapons and such), This isn't Naruto or Bleach.
Furthermore, how much time in-universe did Yamato actually spent with the crew? Like 10 min with Luffy and one with Franky?
The arc is still going and they're going to have a weeklong party after the fight is over if it follows the same trend as most of the series.
Brook was asked to join the crew after about ten seconds.
That aside, Yamato has had years to know about and follow Luffy thanks to Ace, and that he kne Franky on sight means he's been keeping up with the news about Luffy. And we have no idea how much time he spent with Ace.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
-Vegapunk arc
-Elbaf
-Lodestar
-God Valley
-Laugh Tale
-Final WarMary Geoise (quick visit in Raijin either in the way in or out)
Vegapunk
Elbaf
Reaching Laugh Tale (visits to other places in the way, like Lodestar)
Final War on God Valley -
We dont need Lodestar.
If Elbaf aint getting a real arc, i think many people will be disappointed. -
A years worth of fighting doesn't sound too fun.
I mean how long can it take to smash Kaidos skull in.
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Regarding the lack of time Yamato had spent with Luffy, attention should equally be given to the quality of time spent and how it impacted Luffy.
Even with the limited time, Luffy still ended up releasing Yamato from their explosive bindings. The child of a Yonko. Luffy did not doubt Yamato's words and intentions. Rather, Luffy responded to Yamato's declaration of wanting to stop Kaido by freeing them of their bindings that imprisoned Yamato on Onigashima for twenty years.
Additionally Luffy has respected Yamato's desire to be identified as a man through the way Luffy addresses Yamato.
And the most relevant and important expression of Luffy's belief in Yamato is leaving Momonosuke and Shinobu to them. Luffy understands how important Momonosuke is. Luffy created the alliance because Momonosuke requested his help and Luffy even ensured Momonosuke that they would rescue him from the enemy if he finds a way to survive. Despite their "conflict", Luffy is incredibly fond of Momonosuke. Luffy would not have assigned the task of Momonosuke's protection and safety to just anyone. The fact that Luffy was confident Yamato could handle the task alone speaks volumes to the level of trust and faith Luffy has in Yamato and their strength. For the short time Luffy spent with Yamato, this is huge in terms of how far Luffy has connected with Yamato.
Some may consider the lack of time a negative to Yamato's chances as a potential Straw Hat nakama but when looked at the quality of the time Yamato spent with Luffy (Yamato expressing their intention to fight the Beast Pirates which Luffy heard) I find it to be the opposite. It instead conveys support for Yamato's chances.
Additionally, I also disagree with the limited time Yamato has spent with the other Straw Hat Pirates to be a negative. If there was any character that could end up joining the Straw Hat Pirates after only having a meaningful exchange with Luffy, it is the character that parallels Kozuki Oden.
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Finally, Yamato's time with Momonosuke. As I mentioned before, Oda is using Yamato to introduce Momonosuke to the end goals/mysteries of One Piece - the opening of Wano's borders, the Will of D, the "Dawn" and the upcoming War. Even if Momonosuke doesn't know the exact meaning of those concepts, he is at least aware of them now. I understand why some feel the more time Yamato spends with Momonosuke, the more inclined they could be to remain in Wano Kuni. But I am looking at Yamato's time with Momonosuke from another perspective. Momonosuke has been developed into one of the most important characters in the One Piece story. Within the New World, Momonosuke is the most relevant secondary character introduced - even holding more relevance than Kin'emon and Carrot who sailed aboard the Thousand Sunny and protected it. I would even argue that Momonosuke has been set-up to hold a more important role in the story than Law.Momonosuke is the son of Kozuki Oden
Momonosuke has met Edward Newgate
Momonosuke has met Marco
Momonosuke has met Marshall D. Teach
Momonosuke has met the rest of the Whitebeard Pirates
Momonosuke has met Gol D. Roger
Momonosuke has met Silvers Rayleigh
Momonosuke has met Scopper Gaban
Momonosuke has met Crocus
Momonosuke has met Shanks
Momonosuke has met Buggy
[Momonosuke has met Douglas Bullet]
Momonosuke has met the rest of the Roger Pirates
Momonosuke has met Fish-Man and Merfolk
Momonosuke has met Minks
Momonosuke has met Kaido
Momonosuke has met Caesar Clown
Momonosuke has met Monkey D. Luffy
Momonosuke has met the Straw Hat Pirates
Momonosuke has met Trafalgar D. Water Law
Momonosuke has "met" Donquixote Doflamingo
Momonosuke has met Charlotte Linlin
Momonosuke has met Kurozumi Orochi
Momonosuke has met Yamato, the child of KaidoAnd to top it all off, Momonosuke has consumed the Artificial Devil Fruit of Dr. Vegapunk which would support a meeting between the two characters if Oda has a story to expand on the Artifical Devil Fruit and Vegapunk.
No other character can be said to have been in the presence of so many great/important people and yet Momonosuke himself is carving out a story of greatness himself. The first step of that was embracing his origins and not backing down in the face of the Strongest Creature, Kaido. The fact that Momonosuke has not unwillingly turned into a Dragon since the Udon prison fight is a testament to how he has matured. Kozuki Momonosuke will be a leader second to none.
The more time a character spends with Momonosuke, especially at this point in time when Momonosuke is beginning to learn about their importance as the leader of the people of Wano (and leader of the shift in power of the world as the World Government loses their grip), the more relevant that character becomes. Yamato also has to learn about Momonosuke's Dragon form. Oda has connected Momonosuke to the "Dawn" and the future war meaning Momonosuke's importance will only grow. Momonosuke will take a more proactive role going forward in events ongoing around the world. Momonosuke may even has something to do with Zunesha and the Giant Elephants likely present in the Florian Triangle. The Straw Hat Pirates AND Momonosuke (as the Shogun of Wano) will bring about the "Dawn". And Momonosuke will not hold Yamato back from pursuing their desires but rather support them in embracing it just as Momonosuke is embracing his dream.
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I just wish the crew visited some islands in between those more important ones before the final destination. Quick stuff.
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While people bring up a good point that Luffy trusts Yamato enough to assign the order of protecting Momo, there's still the point that Luffy doesn't recognize Yamato enough just yet, mainly due to the part that Luffy calls Yamato "Yamao" or "Yama-guy/Yama-dude", and not by Yamato's actual name.
But a very BIG point that hasn't been covered and what Yamato really needs to do, isn't just state the intention to pursue their freedom from Kaido finally, but like Luffy, has to declare this with force against Kaido. In other words, Yamato needs to join up with Luffy and the others to fight against Kaido. This would prove Yamato's intentions quite clearly to the reader. Yamato needs to physically prove and be capable to declare this right into Kaido's face, just as Luffy proudly declared without doubt he'd be Pirate King and he'd surpass both Kaido and Big Mom here and now. That is a show of power, and Yamato needs to do the same to proudly declare freedom from Kaido's tyranny.
Right now, Yamato isn't doing that, but this still has potential to change greatly as long Wano's storyline is ongoing. After all, Yamato has a unknown Zoan power, and is capable of fighting, so Yamato needs to go and show case that power against Kaido, the World's Strongest Creature. This can be done after we actually see what Yamato's flashback is going to be like, for that is another thing I find that Yamato has lacked. Yes, Yamato got a flashback recently, but that one was solely centered around Ace. I want to see a flashback of Yamato's life and how Kaido plays a role in that.
As for a mentor figure, seeing as every Straw Hat has had a mentor figure that died in their life, I also need to see that for Yamato. Now people may argue that Kozuki Oden is Yamato's mentor, but I disagree with this idea, mainly because this has yet to be shown. That and I don't see Yamato as the one whose going to inherit Oden's will, for this honor goes to Momo entirely as its a part of Momo growing into his role as a leader and becoming greater as result.
If not Oden, I could see Kozuki Toki have a hand in influencing Yamato's views during Oden's absence in some sort of way. That could fill up the "mentor" role for Yamato as well.
Until the things I named up are actually covered and fully realized to a degree, that is when I will vouch my support for Yamato to become the 11th member of Straw Hat Pirates, and not sooner than that.
Yamato's design is already pretty clear cut and great and unique besides the Nami face, so that is covered. Now I need the rest.
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Final War Saga
Elbaf Arc: Usopp's dream, Loki, Big Mom, Shanks
Vegapunk Arc: Emerald City on God Valley
Lodestar Arc: Mink leaders stated SHs should go
Mary Geoise Arc: Gorosei, Im, Big Strawhat
Laugh Tale Arc: One PieceWhere does the last crewmate fit in the overall scheme in the last arcs and saga?
-Yamato has a wealth of knowledge of Oden's travels, maybe too much?
-Carrot is interested in Giants and avenging Pedro; nothing beyond that except maybe the moon(s)?
-Tama wants to be a bewitching kunoichi; nothing beyond that, not sure how a child becomes a trained ninja while traveling with SHs?Yamato and Tama put Luffy in a precarious situation. Both have bonds with Ace and wanted to leave Wano with him. I don't see Luffy choosing one over the other so the safe bet would be Luffy doesn't take either. Carrot has traveled the longest with the crew rivaling Law's tenure but has no real end goal stated nor strong reason to keep traveling with the SHs. None of them seem likely to join, IMO.
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Just for arguments sake, she said in chapter 999 she has been working on becoming a kunoichi, so maybe we will see some ninja techniques soon :ninja:
Just for argument's sake, it's still just something we are being told… how well versed Tama is in regards to ninja techniques and how strong these remain to be (maybe) seen at a future point.:ninja:
But I'm not really interested in getting into a discussion with you, because I know you support Tama and you are free to do that.
So I will simply disagree with you.The arc is still going and they're going to have a weeklong party after the fight is over if it follows the same trend as most of the series.
Er… I'm going to quote myself from the same post:
And I am not foolish enough to think there isn't enough time for Yamato to bond with the crew. But if it ends up Yamato barely interacting with the crew until (meaning not while they are fighting - because they protect Momo and has his own fight somewhere else - and only at) the big feast after all the fights are done and them joining afterward… That will still feel iffy to me.
I think I acknowledge that there is still a chance for Yamato to spend a reasonable amount of time in-universe time with the other Strawhats. But if that time will be mainly at the big weeklong party… As also stated by me: in that case will feel iffy to me.
I am purely talking about the time spent with a Strawhat up to chapter 1000 and not up to chapter 1040 or whenever the Wano arc will be ending.Brook was asked to join the crew after about ten seconds.
That aside, Yamato has had years to know about and follow Luffy thanks to Ace, and that he kne Franky on sight means he's been keeping up with the news about Luffy. And we have no idea how much time he spent with Ace.
Regarding Brook's "first joining" that was - while at the end serious - at the moment it happened more a joke which got repeated within the arc (how many zombies did Luffy ask? 2?3?). Also, Brook got more interaction with different crewmembers and took part in the fighting. (It still felt strange to me that Brook joined at the end and took some time getting used to him.)
And yes… the arc is still ongoing and everything can still change. I'm not denying that.Still, everything Yamato knows about Luffy and the Strawhats is hearsay (enough of Ace's stories to annoy them and the newspaper/bounty posters) because they spent time collecting this secondhand information.
Marco also knew of Luffy because Ace told stories of him but up to the point in Marineford where he met Luffy in person, he only had secondhand information.
The whole world knows of the Strawhats/their escapades and are able to recognize them because of the newspaper/bounty posters. Just like Yamato!But I will be denying to accept Yamato as a sure-fire new nakama until they sail out of Wano on the Sunny with a toast and everything at the end of the arc.
Does it mean, I set a higher bar for Yamato to be accepted by me? Yes.
Do I care? No, because I made my bet and I'm going to stick to that. But I still try to see all the points the story tells why Yamato is the last member.The only dead sure thing is that Yamato is going to leave once everything is said and done!
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Just for argument's sake, it's still just something we are being told… how well versed Tama is in regards to ninja techniques and how strong these remain to be (maybe) seen at a future point.:ninja:
But I'm not really interested in getting into a discussion with you, because I know you support Tama and you are free to do that.
So I will simply disagree with you.How rude.
I'll find another prey then.Where does the last crewmate fit in the overall scheme in the last arcs and saga?
-Tama wants to be a bewitching kunoichi; nothing beyond that, not sure how a child becomes a trained ninja while traveling with SHs?Yamato and Tama put Luffy in a precarious situation. Both have bonds with Ace and wanted to leave Wano with him. I don't see Luffy choosing one over the other so the safe bet would be Luffy doesn't take either. Carrot has traveled the longest with the crew rivaling Law's tenure but has no real end goal stated nor strong reason to keep traveling with the SHs. None of them seem likely to join, IMO.
Could add visiting Ace's grave, meet up with the old spade pirates again, and maybe add the giant straw hat in Mary Geoise to that.
Learn haki by Luffy, devil fruit mastery by the DF users, how to be bewitching, tricking and stealing by Nami, how to make and throw weapons by Franky and Usopp, how to cut by Zoro, the possibilities are endless.
Tama didn't simply want to leave Wano like Yamato, she wanted to join Ace's crew, the context is different.
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I just wish the crew visited some islands in between those more important ones before the final destination. Quick stuff.
Part of why Dressrosa felt so "misguided", he crammed everything into one island (technically two with Greenbit, but they are connected) instead of having a Baroque Works saga like structure, which it ended up purposely mirroring anyway, and also surpassed in length anyway.
Greenbit as an exploration island like Little Garden, colosseum island as side story like Drum, and then getting to Dressrosa, still have the same length roughly, much more adventure and lightheaded stuff, still connected to Doflamingo while being less convoluted.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Lodestar Arc: Mink leaders stated SHs should go
.Inu explicitly said the Strawhats basically skipped the point of that island due to their knowledge.
The purpose is, you follow the log pose to the end, then for the first time learn about poneglyphs, what they might mean, the road ponegylphs, and the existence of the last island.
We already have that information, both the Strawhats and we as the audience. -
How rude.
I'll find another prey then.Could add visiting Ace's grave, meet up with the old spade pirates again, and maybe add the giant straw hat in Mary Geoise to that.
Learn haki by Luffy, devil fruit mastery by the DF users, how to be bewitching, tricking and stealing by Nami, how to make and throw weapons by Franky and Usopp, how to cut by Zoro, the possibilities are endless.
Tama didn't simply want to leave Wano like Yamato, she wanted to join Ace's crew, the context is different.
What I find interesting about Tama is that a Luffy denial would be redundant. It would be one thing if Ace didn't already deny her, but if Luffy did the same thing it wouldn't be interesting. I can imagine a couple possibilities based on Oda usually trying to be more interesting than that.
I've wavered between thinking she was a real candidate to join and yesterday, that she'd join a different group or something of that manner, but something clicked in my mind this morning. Luffy is always motivated by people, and Tama is one of his biggest motivators this arc. He wants to kick Kaido's ass for Kinemon's sake, but his desire to make Wano safe and free and the food plentiful is for Tama's sake. I think this makes most sense if Tama grows up on Wano enjoying the fruits of Luffy's struggle.
Now one thing to say about that is that Tama will do what she wants. We've seen this three times in the manga. First, with her slip up that caused her to be hounded by Kaido's goons in the first place. Second, through her giving Luffy rice even as she had nothing for herself to eat, and most recently through sneaking to Onigashima. That streak of rebelliousness is what makes me frequently question her future and again, the redundancy of Ace's promise to her. If he had lived (big hypothetical) I think this would have been the time for him to go after Kaido, assuming Kin and friends would have gotten word to Izo and left for Wano. If Tama does demonstrate the skills of a kunoichi, would a potentially alive Ace have taken her with him as an 8 year old?
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Just going back to the discussion on the
3D2Y moment as that moment is definitely an intimate experience that establishes a powerful bond between the members of the Straw Hat Pirates and the readers feelings towards the main characters.If we do entertain the possibility that there will be another character added to the Straw Hat Pirates in the future, what would be the next best thing to bridge that gap for the
3D2Y moment?Having characters associated with the events surrounding the
3D2Y development would help. Such as if the character was one who fought alongside Luffy in the Battle of Marineford or played an integral part in assisting Luffy e.g. Jinbe protecting Luffy, Law saving Luffy, Hancock having Luffy’s back before, during and after the battle, Koby’s seconds of courage, Buggy’s divine assistance, Ivankov’s “healing”, etc. Such acts did help build a camaraderie between Luffy and the character.Beyond that there is a more intimate connection which could help a character fill [some of] the gap left by the
3D2Y moment and that is the connection to Ace. The character whose death led to the3D2Y moment. Jinbe had both a connection to Ace and played an integral role in the Battle of Marineford (protecting Luffy) which made his inclusion in the crew feel so natural and…right. Hancock had helped Luffy in a similar manner to Jinbe but her set-up was completely different. Hancock is a very special case (Luffy and her did spend 4 and a half days in the same room on a ship, together). Hancock won’t be part of the Straw Hat Pirates but she will arrive at Laugh Tale alongside Luffy. Pirate King and Pirate Empress. Destiny is all :ninja:.Any character that had a [close] relationship with Ace would hold relevance to his death. To those characters that cared for Ace, they too would understand to an extent what Luffy was going through when Ace’s life was ultimately extinguished. And if those character knew of the relationship Ace and Luffy shared, they would have some idea of how painful the event would have been for Luffy. Such feelings along with historic focus on that moment (flashback) could help bridge the emotional gap readers/viewers would have with any new character joining the crew by aligning that characters pain with the emotions generated from the
3D2Y moment. It won’t completely make up for the lack of the3D2Y experience but it would definitely assist any new character being a future Straw Hat Pirate to not be completely detached from that moment. An indirect bond the character has to the Straw Hat Pirates through their pain over Ace’s death. In a way, a shared experience.!
We know several characters that were relevant during the Marineford Arc or are relevant in the Wano Kuni Arc that have interacted with and established some form of relationship with Ace – Smoker, Buggy, Little Oars Jr.,Hancock, Tama, and Yamato. Ace through his adventures had encountered those relevant characters. Buggy isn’t going to be a future Straw Hat Pirate so we can ignore him. As for Little Oars Jr., he won't fit through the Sunny's door sadly O.o.Smoker is a curious case. His story has been closely connected to Luffy’s but I don’t see him being developed as a future Straw Hat Pirate by Oda. The problem I have with Smoker and his potential to be a Straw Hat Pirate is that he was in part responsible for Ace’s death. Regardless of Smoker’s intentions, through his actions he supported and contributed to Ace’s death. If Oda was looking at writing Smoker as a future Straw Hat Pirate, he would have scripted events differently to illustrate Smoker being more against what was going on and being indirectly helpful to Luffy. As was the case with Garp and Koby whose actions assisted Luffy during the Marineford Arc. None of Smoker’s actions helped Luffy…or Ace. It would be unnatural for Smoker to now go on to join the Straw Hat Pirates. Him assisting the Straw Hat Pirates as an ally to clear the corruption from the Marines, that is something Smoker (and Tashigi) can help with.
Tama established a close bond with Ace during the two weeks he was present on Wano Kuni. Tama even has the promise Ace (as the Captain of the Spade Pirates) made to her to express how deep the friendship ran. Where Tama loses momentum in regards to the connection to the
3D2Y moment is her not being aware of Ace’s death prior to Luffy bluntly informing her. There was no build up to the dramatic reveal. And her only finding out two years later distances the experience from the3D2Y moment.Finally there is Yamato who became friends with Ace after initially battling with him. It was Ace's passionate words about Yamato's heart that led Yamato to confronting their feelings and embracing what they really want - to go out to sea and adventure. To be free. Even though the time Yamato and Ace spent together was short, the two quickly became friends and shared bottles of sake together along with stories of the new generation of pirate rookies and Luffy. Yamato had also given Ace the vivre card which Ace later used to give Luffy a piece. That piece of vivre card was in turn relied on heavily by Luffy during the Summit War Saga when locating Ace. It could be argued that indirectly through the vivre card, Yamato played a part during the Paradise portion of the One Piece story.
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Based on the content of chapter 1,000, we can say with certainty that Yamato did not start following the Straw Hat Pirates journey until they read the newspaper concerning Ace’s death. Only after Ace died when Yamato also read about Luffy’s involvement in the war did Yamato recall the conversation they had with Ace 1-2 years prior to that moment. From that moment forward, Yamato became interested in Luffy who reminded them of the King of the Pirates written about in Oden's journal.The next important part of Yamato's story is how they would have reacted when news of Ace's death reached them? How shattered would Yamato be when they found out a friend of there's was killed without them able to directly help? Yamato would have been crushed. From Yamato's conversations with Luffy and the fondness reflected in Yamato's face when talking about Ace to Momonosuke, it is clear Ace was a person very dear to Yamato even if the time they spent together was short. Yamato mentioned they couldn't stop crying after Oden was killed as the emotions were so powerful. I would imagine Yamato's reaction to be the same when they found out Ace was killed.
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And with all that, Yamato still continued to believe that Luffy would be able to pick himself up and continue his adventure to Wano Kuni. Yamato continued to challenge Kaido and continued to wait for Luffy. What made Yamato believe in Luffy and his arrival in Wano Kuni? With the narrative surrounding the Straw Hat Pirates disappearance after the events two years ago and the gap between their activity, why would someone continue to believe in the Straw Hat Pirates entering the New World? Why would Yamato? In line with Yamato's interest in the Straw Hat Pirates journey, they would have seen the newspapers featuring the Straw Hat Pirates including the one containing the message Luffy left for his crew members two years ago. A crazy thought, but what if Yamato saw the meaning in Luffy's message and knew his arrival at Wano Kuni to be inevitable after decoding the message? What if Yamato knew the Straw Hat Pirates would enter the New World two years after the Battle of Marineford? In conjunction with the information contained in Oden's journal where a group of Pirates will appear in Wano twenty years after Oden's death and knowledge of Luffy's dream which echoed what Roger told Oden, if during the conversation Ace and Yamato shared on Onigashima extended to Ace's tattoo and the crossed out "S" it could explain how Yamato was able to decode the message Luffy expressed to his crew. Unlike the Straw Hat Pirates who were aware what the crossed out "3D" meant allowing them to infer a meaning to "2Y", Yamato would be aware what the "2Y" meant when read together with Oden's journal allowing Yamato to infer what the crossed out "3D" could mean. Would not such a development coupled with Yamato's grief over Ace's death and their continual struggles over the past 20 years connect that pain with the Straw Hat Pirates experience from two years ago during the3D2Y moment? What happens if it is revealed that Yamato made a pledge with themselves as well upon understanding the3D2Y message - 'when you arrive in Wano Kuni, Luffy, I will be ready to help fight alongside you to stop Kaido and open Wano's borders. And I will set sail with you to experience the world beyond Wano.' (all that Yamato expressed to Luffy when they first met during Yamato's introduction). When Yamato mentioned to Luffy that they were waiting a very long time for him, Yamato may have really been waiting those two years for Luffy.Yamato is aware of Sabo's name which Ace revealed when talking about Luffy's dream. And through that conversation Yamato learned of Sabo's relation to Ace and Luffy. It is unclear if Yamato is aware of the story surrounding Sabo but they at the very least know of Sabo's existence. Additionally, I wonder if Yamato is aware of the Revolutionary Army employing a Sabo within their ranks. If so, does Yamato realise the connection to Luffy? Whatever the case, considering Sabo is currently seemingly in trouble, it would be exciting to see two characters connected to Ace who couldn’t save him now join together to assist Sabo, the brother who Ace thought dead, in whatever bind he is in. Sabo could even reunite with Luffy himself using the vivre card he got from Luffy to request assistance with whatever problem arose from the events that transpired during the Reverie (could Yamato be aware of those events via the newspaper). And through Yamato and Luffy reuniting with Sabo, the three could visit Ace’s grave to express the fulfillment of Ace’s promise from three years ago via pouring sake cups and sharing a drink - "The Sake I Brewed to Drink with You". Yamato's final comment to Ace ("Let's meet up again one day, Ace!!") and Ace's response ("You bet") may come to pass upon Yamato visiting Ace's grave. The three could also pay their respects to Whitebeard who Ace thought of as a father. There is much relevance and emotional substance in aligning Yamato with the Straw Hat Pirates post Wano.
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I still believe the Octopus in the start of the Wano Kuni Arc that helped Luffy and Co. enter Wano Kuni is connected to Yamato. No other character in Wano Kuni followed the Straw Hat Pirates as closely as Yamato did. Yamato had Oden's journal to compare the Straw Hat Pirates journey with. They knew with Nico Robin in the Straw Hat Pirates and Luffy having the initial "D" in his name, it was inevitable that the Straw Hat Pirates would eventually come to Wano Kuni for the Road Poneglyph in Kaido's possession. And based on Oden's Journal and their conversation with Ace, Yamato also noted similarities between Luffy and Roger. If Yamato was aware the Straw Hat Pirates will enter the New World two years after the Battle of Marineford, it makes sense for Yamato to expect the arrival of Luffy in Wano Kuni. As such, Yamato may have taken measures to assist the Straw Hat Pirates in their entrance to Wano Kuni. Considering how secretive this method is, it would have taken someone with prior knowledge to arrange such an entry. Kaido was surprised Big Mom knew of the waterfall-climbing method which implies just how closely guarded this knowledge was. It would make sense for the Straw Hat Pirates to be assisted by someone who was closely connected to Kaido and who better than the one person on Onigashima Island that had been waiting years for Luffy's arrival i.e. Kaido's child. The Octopus itself was strangely interested in Luffy - summoning the Koi after Luffy mentions his name and grabbing ahold of Luffy as he tried to escape the Thousand Sunny when it reached the top of the Wano Kuni waterfall. Additionally, Yamato also knew Luffy and the Samurai were approaching Onigashima Island before any of the other Beast Pirates which is why Yamato disappeared earlier in the day before any of the Samurai and Pirates arrived. Yamato has been keeping their focus closely on the Straw Hat Pirates (Luffy) movements across Wano Kuni which could mean Yamato was receiving their information from somewhere - an Octopus perhaps?If Yamato had decoded the
3D2Y message Luffy left for his crew and has been waiting for Luffy since that day, it would help to establish a connection between Yamato and that intimate moment Luffy and his crew shared. Through Ace, Yamato became involved in the Straw Hat Pirates story and now through the events in Wano Kuni, Yamato is becoming closely associated to the Straw Hat Pirates adventure. The foundation Oda is setting up with Yamato being aware of Luffy's dream and his relevance to the "One Piece" is not just window dressing. There is a deeper meaning to Oda having Yamato being closely connected to the end goals of One Piece and the mysteries surrounding it. -
What I find interesting about Tama is that a Luffy denial would be redundant. It would be one thing if Ace didn't already deny her, but if Luffy did the same thing it wouldn't be interesting. I can imagine a couple possibilities based on Oda usually trying to be more interesting than that.
I've wavered between thinking she was a real candidate to join and yesterday, that she'd join a different group or something of that manner, but something clicked in my mind this morning. Luffy is always motivated by people, and Tama is one of his biggest motivators this arc. He wants to kick Kaido's ass for Kinemon's sake, but his desire to make Wano safe and free and the food plentiful is for Tama's sake. I think this makes most sense if Tama grows up on Wano enjoying the fruits of Luffy's struggle.
Now one thing to say about that is that Tama will do what she wants. We've seen this three times in the manga. First, with her slip up that caused her to be hounded by Kaido's goons in the first place. Second, through her giving Luffy rice even as she had nothing for herself to eat, and most recently through sneaking to Onigashima. That streak of rebelliousness is what makes me frequently question her future and again, the redundancy of Ace's promise to her. If he had lived (big hypothetical) I think this would have been the time for him to go after Kaido, assuming Kin and friends would have gotten word to Izo and left for Wano. If Tama does demonstrate the skills of a kunoichi, would a potentially alive Ace have taken her with him as an 8 year old?
Interesting indeed, I'd add going to Udon to that list of her rebellious actions too, as I like to point whenever I get the chance, the whole trip to Oden with Big Mom was orchestrated by her originally.
Before they made the promise, and after Ace denied her, Ace said, "Look, a pirate gotta be strong", and in return to that, Tama said she will become a kunoichi, since that is someone who would be strong from her POV, so basically what is most important is that she is strong enough imo, she had some ups and downs since then; ate a DF, kidnapped and rescued twice but then returned the favour by indirectly saving the ones in Udon, and directly saving Usopp and Nami in onigashima, it is not enough to be considered "strong" yet, Tama's plan and her future actions will be crucial if she could be considered "strong", and if she manages to prove herself strong, then yeah, I think Ace would have taken her along.
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@Galleon:
As for a mentor figure, seeing as every Straw Hat has had a mentor figure that died in their life, I also need to see that for Yamato.
I made a theory about huge chances of that person being the "Jack" before the new Jack.
And the more I think about it, the more plausible it seems, considering a couple of points I didn't bring earlier;
1-Jack doesn't recognize Inuarashi, Nekomumashi and Ashura Doji as the servants of Kozuki Oden, and this is despite the fact that Inu and Neko were captured a second time, meaning the Minks spent the longest around the Beast Pirates, still Jack never seemed to know who they were.
Same goes for Ashura, Jack only seemed to know about some Shuten Maru guy, who's a bandit that steals food from both civilians and Beast Pirates, once again, he never once recognizes this Shuten Maru as a Red Scabbard, and that is, despite the fact that Ashura barely changed a tiny bit in those 20 years.And 2-Just like the SH's, there's always that mentor figure that keeps the SH's good, Yamato having grown in a world of violence for 20 years, in violence-island, where crimes are commited every day, children are abducted, invaders are tortured, the weak gets trashed, etc, somehow, Yamato remained a good person.
So there's definitely a mentor figure right there, the time to mention this person just hasn't come yet, but for example, Yamato hasn't interacted with Kaido up to this point, that'll be a good moment to bring it up, it'll be a "you killed –insert mentor figure--, that's why I hate you so much--.And then, the final flashback starts.
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Part of why Dressrosa felt so "misguided", he crammed everything into one island (technically two with Greenbit, but they are connected) instead of having a Baroque Works saga like structure, which it ended up purposely mirroring anyway, and also surpassed in length anyway.
Greenbit as an exploration island like Little Garden, colosseum island as side story like Drum, and then getting to Dressrosa, still have the same length roughly, much more adventure and lightheaded stuff, still connected to Doflamingo while being less convoluted.One of the many things Dressrosa did poorly. I'd say that even Oda's intention to change the landscape with Pika's fruit was an attempt to make the environment more refreshing, but it didn't work.
WCI is interesting case because Totland had many lands. However, the fact that all of them looked virtually the same based on the food theme, you just don't feel like multiple islands (and, well, it was basically Whole Cake and Cacao Island). I guess we also saw Germa kingdom, which is neat.
Funnily enough, Onigashima is enough of a visual spectacle from the outside to feel like a different island from Wano.
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Tama established a close bond with Ace during the two weeks he was present on Wano Kuni. Tama even has the promise Ace (as the Captain of the Spade Pirates) made to her to express how deep the friendship ran. Where Tama loses momentum in regards to the connection to the
3D2Y moment is her not being aware of Ace’s death prior to Luffy bluntly informing her. There was no build up to the dramatic reveal. And her only finding out two years later distances the experience from the3D2Y moment.Regarding Ace and 3D2Y, this is what I've been saying for years!
But…
No build up? The build up hasn't ended yet! at least we got something with Tama unlike with Yamato, who have only been casually dropping "Ace ded" for a few times now.
That's not a lost momentum, the opposite, it builds and shows Tama's character, she waited for him for four years, and for the last year she was waiting in a ruined and destroyed village, as Hitetsu himself said " She could have had a better life else where, but she chose to still live here and wait for a man named ace", (which also seems to indicate that Hitetsu and Tama are not that close as some people believe they are) the momentum is still on going and we havn't gotten the pay off from it yet! -
It also hasn't grown since Dresserossa which, while recent in story-time was five or six years ago now, so it having official expansions isn't quite an official thing… yet.
If the Grand Fleet was instead Bart, Cavenish, Bellamy, and I dunno... Law, Hancock, Mr. 2, Perona and Paulie? And if Luffy sanctioned it and called it a great thing for his friends? It'd feel more like a legitimate reward and honorary place for secondaries to go off to.
[…] it's a little wild to me though, because I don't see her setting sail as a pirate captain in the New World (and what's her crew supposed to be? Roddy and BB?)… and, funnily enough, this outcome would arguably need the focus and development that some people say there's no room to happen as it is a big change for the status quo of the character.
The Nox Pirates were an expedition group who went around collecting Poneglyphs and Pedro said he already laid the foundation for Luffy's journey. Naratively I see no purpose for the Mink Tribe to formed an offshoot pirate group unless it's ex members of the Nox Pirates that left the Big Mom Pirates led by Pekoms. That I could see, but it's just an ally crew, not part of the Grand Fleet, who do stuff representing the SH Pirates. The Sun Pirates are allies, but they're not part of the Grand Fleet.
I guess I took some things for granted while formulating my thoughts: "Grand Fleet", for me, is synonymous for any allied faction with a naval force, whether the members take on the label or not.
The literal Grand Fleet I envision, the one that will be present in the biggest war ever, will naturally include figures like Hancock, Perona, Paulie, Crocodile (!) and so on. Hell, I could even picture Dalton showing up with an army of Rabbit soldiers, though that's less likely.It also doesn't matter in which fashion Carrot would set sail again, "New Nox Pirates" was just an example. The only thing that matters is that the Minks won't be leaving Luffy's side, and Carrot is easily the most prominent representative apart from the Dukes. When they join the Grand Fleet (officially or "just" physically) she will be the outstanding figure for sure - and by outstanding I don't mean due to her rank within the Mink tribe or her powerlevel, but her connection to the Straw Hats. Chopper in particular.
See, what irritates me about the Carrot discussion (and Yamato to a lesser degree) isn't that I don't want her to join or that the arguments for her are super terrible or so, I think Shift and others make some valid arguments. It's the fact that her role as a character, since her introduction, is completely suffocated by the prospect of her joining the crew. Discussions around her are mostly about what she lacks, what she still needs, what others have that she doesn't, how her shortcomings could be compensated, how much time there is left for her to "prove herself" (whatever that means) etc.
I just think it would be interesting to approach characters from different perspectives, like consider any other role except being the new member. Just mentally rule it out if you have to and see what happens. Because I think there are other options on the table that could be satisfying - if we only remove the extraordinary standards a Straw Hat has to meet.
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I made a theory about huge chances of that person being the "Jack" before the new Jack.
And the more I think about it, the more plausible it seems, considering a couple of points I didn't bring earlier;
1-Jack doesn't recognize Inuarashi, Nekomumashi and Ashura Doji as the servants of Kozuki Oden, and this is despite the fact that Inu and Neko were captured a second time, meaning the Minks spent the longest around the Beast Pirates, still Jack never seemed to know who they were.
Same goes for Ashura, Jack only seemed to know about some Shuten Maru guy, who's a bandit that steals food from both civilians and Beast Pirates, once again, he never once recognizes this Shuten Maru as a Red Scabbard, and that is, despite the fact that Ashura barely changed a tiny bit in those 20 years.And 2-Just like the SH's, there's always that mentor figure that keeps the SH's good, Yamato having grown in a world of violence for 20 years, in violence-island, where crimes are commited every day, children are abducted, invaders are tortured, the weak gets trashed, etc, somehow, Yamato remained a good person.
So there's definitely a mentor figure right there, the time to mention this person just hasn't come yet, but for example, Yamato hasn't interacted with Kaido up to this point, that'll be a good moment to bring it up, it'll be a "you killed –insert mentor figure--, that's why I hate you so much--.And then, the final flashback starts.
Its a good idea, but I don't think its someone who preceded Jack, as Jack isn't a title or anything, but a name of the character who happens to be a Calamity. It sounds too weird for me. That said, as long we get to see a Yamato focused flashback and the supposed mentor figure (Oden from Yamato's perspective, Toki, or someone else), Yamato's chances will be made higher in my eyes for her to join the Straw Hats. Moreso, as I said before, also declaring she will leave her father and sail out, and fight Kaido on top of it alongside Luffy will really cement it for me.
For all we know, it could be Yamato's own mother who rebelled against Kaido and by this idea, got killed in retaliation. Who knows?
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I just think it would be interesting to approach characters from different perspectives, like consider any other role except being the new member. Just mentally rule it out if you have to and see what happens. Because I think there are other options on the table that could be satisfying - if we only remove the extraordinary standards a Straw Hat has to meet.
Considering Oda's unbreakable track record of just leaving candidates behind.
When we propose a Nox 2.0 we're actually trying to be nice to her.
because yeah, she can just be left behind.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Galleon:
Its a good idea, but I don't think its someone who preceded Jack, as Jack isn't a title or anything, but a name of the character who happens to be a Calamity.
I don't think that's the case at all.
The Baroque Works used alias as well, Doflamingo would call Rocinante and Vergo as "Corazón", Baby 5 and Buffalo claimed to have real names too, Trébol, Diamante and Pica surely have theirs but haven't been revealed yet, even the 'Joker' that served Kaido, had a real name too.
It would be too much of a coincidence if Kaido found three people all with playing card games too, and whoever names his children 'King'???
Anyways, as I also said earlier, the third shadow in Kin'emons memories cannot be Jack by any means, given he was just 8 years old back then.
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Combined with what I already said about present Jack not recognizing the Scabbards, and neither the Scabbards recognizing Jack, there's something here.
ANOOOTHER revealing scene about present Jack, not being the same as past Jack, is the very moment where the Scabbards attacked Kaido for the first time, and King immediately goes OOH SHIT THE SCABBARDS!
Meanwhile Jack only says, it's the Mink Rulers!! -
I guess I took some things for granted while formulating my thoughts: "Grand Fleet", for me, is synonymous for any allied faction with a naval force, whether the members take on the label or not.
The literal Grand Fleet I envision, the one that will be present in the biggest war ever, will naturally include figures like Hancock, Perona, Paulie, Crocodile (!) and so on. Hell, I could even picture Dalton showing up with an army of Rabbit soldiers, though that's less likely.It also doesn't matter in which fashion Carrot would set sail again, "New Nox Pirates" was just an example. The only thing that matters is that the Minks won't be leaving Luffy's side, and Carrot is easily the most prominent representative apart from the Dukes. When they join the Grand Fleet (officially or "just" physically) she will be the outstanding figure for sure - and by outstanding I don't mean due to her rank within the Mink tribe or her powerlevel, but her connection to the Straw Hats. Chopper in particular.
In those terms, that's the most likely outcome for Carrot if she doesn't join… and it's not a bad thing as long as it's well done.
But I'd like to add that I still expect personal development for Carrot before she gets any sort of closure. What people usually don't acknowledge, unless they're Carrot's supporters, is that Carrot has a story going on and this needs to lead anywhere and payoff. I've said countless times that it doesn't need to end with Carrot joining the crew, although it would make sense. Nevertheless, instead, just for argument's sake, maybe Carrot could even become the new Duchess of the minks if cat and dog died or resigned. Despite this outcome being abrupt and out of nowhere for Carrot considering her age and behavior, LOL, it would at least show character growth and newfound responsability after Pedro's death and her understandment of the need to fight for the Dawn, something compatible with her storyline, and then she could be the leader of the minks in the final war as an ally of Luffy. Or maybe Oda could do something else more creative. Whatever. Just make a proper development and payoff, which needs focus and spotlight.
Besides that, personally speaking, I'd have a bitter taste in my mouth if Carrot was not acknowledged as a "nakama" in the same fashion as Vivi, so at least I'd like a scene for that. While I don't usually demand an author to follow my desires, that's just what feels right after most of Carrot's screentime being spent deeply bonding with the Strawhats through difficult times, and not only with Chopper as people usually say, but all the crew that went to WCI, including Luffy.
See, what irritates me about the Carrot discussion (and Yamato to a lesser degree) isn't that I don't want her to join or that the arguments for her are super terrible or so, I think Shift and others make some valid arguments. It's the fact that her role as a character, since her introduction, is completely suffocated by the prospect of her joining the crew. Discussions around her are mostly about what she lacks, what she still needs, what others have that she doesn't, how her shortcomings could be compensated, how much time there is left for her to "prove herself" (whatever that means) etc.
I just think it would be interesting to approach characters from different perspectives, like consider any other role except being the new member. Just mentally rule it out if you have to and see what happens. Because I think there are other options on the table that could be satisfying - if we only remove the extraordinary standards a Straw Hat has to meet.
I think it's too "meta" to let ourselves get influenced by how discussion goes. It happens, I know, it's inevitable, and we put our pride on the stakes so we get attached to our predictions and even more biased… but that's not ideal. What's especially problematic is that a lot of discussion can be disingenious, as any person with negative feeling can hijack the entire discussion with their own loudness and skew the analysis (just like Joy Boy was doing in regards to Kaido). There'll always be people complaining about any new prospects for Strawhats and, funnily enough, most of the criticism we see nowadays can be used against at least one of the characters who joined the crew... so that's life.
Carrot has been suffocated by the prospects of her joining the crew, but maybe one day people will chill and reread the story and just enjoy what's there.
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I'd argue the opposite.
Inu explicitly said the Strawhats basically skipped the point of that island due to their knowledge.
The purpose is, you follow the log pose to the end, then for the first time learn about poneglyphs, what they might mean, the road ponegylphs, and the existence of the last island.
We already have that information, both the Strawhats and we as the audience.I must have misremembered. My thinking is there may still be information at Lodestar, a Ponegliff and/or other artifacts that build the story. Roger's adventure started anew after visiting Lodestar. I don't recall but I don't think the Roger Pirates went straight to Laugh Tale but year(s) in-between to gather Laugh Tale's location.
@Solid:Could add visiting Ace's grave, meet up with the old spade pirates again, and maybe add the giant straw hat in Mary Geoise to that.
Learn haki by Luffy, devil fruit mastery by the DF users, how to be bewitching, tricking and stealing by Nami, how to make and throw weapons by Franky and Usopp, how to cut by Zoro, the possibilities are endless.
Tama didn't simply want to leave Wano like Yamato, she wanted to join Ace's crew, the context is different.
You expect Tama to learn all of that at the age of 8 from now to the Laugh Tale? Haki?! Which one? Before other Strawhats!? Nope, not seeing it. Devil Fruit "mastery"? Maybe. It would be interesting to see what happens to Chopper if he ate a dango. Rumbleball Dango!! So, your stating the Strawhats will train Tama to be a bewitching kunoichi? :blink:
They both have a bond with Ace's brother. Ace acknowledged Yamato's strength. Yamato knows more about Luffy than Tama. If anything Yamato has more claim to travel with the Strawhats than Tama.
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Besides that, personally speaking, I'd have a bitter taste in my mouth if Carrot was not acknowledged as a "nakama" in the same fashion as Vivi, so at least I'd like a scene for that. While I don't usually demand an author to follow my desires, that's just what feels right after most of Carrot's screentime being spent deeply bonding with the Strawhats through difficult times, and not only with Chopper as people usually say, but all the crew that went to WCI, including Luffy.
Man it's gonna be so forced if Oda pulls a "Vivi farewell scene" for Carrot, the whole BW saga was all about Vivi. The initial goal of defeating Crocodile was brought up by her and by the end of the Alabasta arc Vivi was the main emotional crux tying the SHs to the conflict. Carrot has nothing on that, amost none of what we saw in Zou, Whole Cake or Wano really had her as the main focus.
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Not to mention that to half the crew Carrot barely stands out among the Minks. Carrot is nowhere near as close to Zoro, Usopp, Robin and Franky as Vivi was to all the Straw Hats more or less equally.
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Yeah no to that, Carrot is no Vivi
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They both have a bond with Ace's brother. Ace acknowledged Yamato's strength. Yamato knows more about Luffy than Tama. If anything Yamato has more claim to travel with the Strawhats than Tama.
Jinbe already had a personal relationship with Ace. I feel like a lot of people are forgetting that when they reference Yamato's connection.
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You expect Tama to learn all of that at the age of 8 from now to the Laugh Tale? Haki?! Which one? Before other Strawhats!? Nope, not seeing it. Devil Fruit "mastery"? Maybe. It would be interesting to see what happens to Chopper if he ate a dango. Rumbleball Dango!! So, your stating the Strawhats will train Tama to be a bewitching kunoichi? :blink:
They both have a bond with Ace's brother. Ace acknowledged Yamato's strength. Yamato knows more about Luffy than Tama. If anything Yamato has more claim to travel with the Strawhats than Tama.
it goes along with her being the apprentice, kind of like when Law was with Doffy.
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She doesn't have to master it before reaching laugh tale, it's just what she would do on the ship, and maybe something she learned will come in handy.
All I said is, their context is different while it seemed like you just lumped together as in one category.
Yamato may know more about Luffy, but Tama actually knows Luffy in person, Yamato may have more claim to travel with them than Tama, but Tama has more claim to actually join the crew. -
Yeah, Vivi performed no role on the ship. Carrot did
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Man it's gonna be so forced if Oda pulls a "Vivi farewell scene" for Carrot, the whole BW saga was all about Vivi. The initial goal of defeating Crocodile was brought up by her and by the end of the Alabasta arc Vivi was the main emotional crux tying the SHs to the conflict. Carrot has nothing on that, amost none of what we saw in Zou, Whole Cake or Wano really had her as the main focus.
First, Vivi is one of my favorite characters and she's deserving of the status of honorary Strawhats… just so you don't misunderstand me.
As you said, Vivi was the main link between the SHs and the conflict on Alabasta, and that was so perfectly done that it made Vivi exceptional. That said, the role itself is much closer to a plot device than you think. It's part of the OP formula that you need local characters (islanders) whose hometown is in turmoil so that they pull in the main characters into the conflict. A lot of lesser characters have played this role too (but I won't call them by name), and more recently some better ones have risen to the challenge, like Momonosuke, Kinnemon, Tama, etc, although none of them are as charismatic and iconic as Vivi (in my opinion), and the nature of their relationship with the crew is different.
What made Vivi so special is not her role, but that during the journey she became more intimate than normal with the crew and felt like a nakama. It's even funny to think that her character was basically improvised as Oda himself has already revealed. Back in Reverse Mountain, Miss Wednesday was not supposed to be any big deal, but then Oda realized that she had the looks of a princess and adapted her for the role, and so Vivi was born. After that, Vivi went through side adventures with the SHs in Little Garden and Drum and, because of those moments, she got closer to the crew and the audience alike, and her character more endearing. By virtue of having to draw scenes featuring Vivi bonding with the crew, she transcended the role. So when we arrived at Alabasta, Oda had something special in his hands and made good use of the friendship theme, and so at the end they gave her a deserving farewell.
Carrot was never at the center of the plot, instead being a supporting character. It's hard to figure out why she had so much exposure at all, but it happened, and Carrot's bonding with the crew was very extensively portrayed through goofy and tragic moments alike. Carrot was never a character who was there merely to do exposition, or to be a plot device of whatever nature, instead being deliberately put in a position to engage with the good stuff and participate like an equal, be it in fights or protecting the ship or sharing the pain of the crew through the rougher times of WCI. Even today she's put in the company of the crew instead of being part of the mink army, and despite her participation in Onigashima being subpar up to this point, she has the privilege of being given a fight against a big shot, regardless of what will be made of it. And who knows what else is in the cards for her.
It's true that she doesn't have anything with the non-WCI side of the crew, but Carrot feels like a nakama too… so I think it's important that the story acknowledges that in case she doesn't join the crew.
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It's true that she doesn't have anything with the non-WCI side of the crew, but Carrot feels like a nakama too… so I think it's important that the story acknowledges that in case she doesn't join the crew.
The story doesn't need to acknowledge your feelings about a character
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It's true that she doesn't have anything with the non-WCI side of the crew, but Carrot feels like a nakama too… so I think it's important that the story acknowledges that in case she doesn't join the crew.
Well, she does, but it's not a huge sample size.
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Well, she does, but it's not a huge sample size.
In those panels Carrot is interacting with Nami and Jinbei, two members of the WCI squad. I see no interaction with the Dressrosa crew. The first one doesn't even have the latter in it
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The story doesn't need to acknowledge your feelings about a character
Shit if Oda did my fan requests would have happened
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Wasn't the first on panel interaction for Carrot with the Dressrosa group?
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Wasn't the first on panel interaction for Carrot with the Dressrosa group?
The only interaction she had was just straight up attacking Zoro.
She eventually became chill and partied with them and her amusement of Luffy as well as the prospect of adventure, but it doesn't compare to her partitioned relationship with the Sanji Retrieval Team, mainly Chopper (Choniki), Nami, and Sanji. Luffy is still the ground she needs to have the most coverage with, but that's something that will more than likely happen since Pedro's last words were to know why they and their journey are so important.
EDIT: Brook kinda too, but she was initially shocked and scared of some of the stuff he could do.
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In those panels Carrot is interacting with Nami and Jinbei, two members of the WCI squad. I see no interaction with the Dressrosa crew. The first one doesn't even have the latter in it
She's surrounded by the SH crew. That's interacting. She also jumped in the tank with Usopp. Pretty sure he was at Dressrosa.
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The story doesn't need to acknowledge your feelings about a character
Stories have no rules and nothing to confirm to. But that's not a constraint for people to have an opinion in regards to what they think is organic and (subjectivelly) desirable based on their understandment of what's going on in the story. That's basically what happens every week whenever someone gives an opinion or criticism to the chapter or to the arc to to anything else in the manga. For example, if I say that Oda is slacking off in his portrayal of the Strawhats post-timeskip, you could answer "THE STORY DOESN'T NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR FEELINGS!", but that's not the point.
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Wasn't the first on panel interaction for Carrot with the Dressrosa group?
She attacked Zoro, then their attention was immediately diverted when Wanda showed up wearing Nami's clothes. All their comments were about Minks in general, even when Carrot demonstrated her jump. Yamato's short interaction with Franky showed more depth than that.
She's surrounded by the SH crew. That's interacting. She also jumped in the tank with Usopp. Pretty sure he was at Dressrosa.
You and I clearly have a different interpretation what interaction means.
Stories have no rules and nothing to confirm to. But that's not a constraint for people to have an opinion in regards to what they think is organic and (subjectivelly) desirable based on their understandment of what's going on in the story. That's basically what happens every week whenever someone gives an opinion or criticism to the chapter or to the arc to to anything else in the manga. For example, if I say that Oda is slacking off in his portrayal of the Strawhats post-timeskip, you could answer "THE STORY DOESN'T NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR FEELINGS!", but that's not the point.
But there is good storytelling and there is bad storytelling. Stories where literally anything can happen because there are no rules to them tend to be bad ones. Also, there's a difference between constructive criticism and demanding the story to conform to your desires which is constantly frowned upon here
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Stories have no rules and nothing to confirm to. But that's not a constraint for people to have an opinion in regards to what they think is organic and (subjectivelly) desirable based on their understandment of what's going on in the story. That's basically what happens every week whenever someone gives an opinion or criticism to the chapter or to the arc to to anything else in the manga. For example, if I say that Oda is slacking off in his portrayal of the Strawhats post-timeskip, you could answer "THE STORY DOESN'T NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR FEELINGS!", but that's not the point.
I think this is why there is such a disconnect between Carrot supporters and Carrot deniers. Somehow you think the character is already practically a Straw Hat while i wouldn't even consider that if not for internet discussions.
So even if we are reading the exact same story, our (subjective) understanding of it is very very different (at least in this matter).
I have no way to meaningfully respond to you previous long post (the one you quoted me) because it's based on premises that, to me, are not even there. For example, you mention that " It's hard to figure out why she had so much exposure at all" but i simply don't see her as a character with much exposure, she has a lot of panel time, but that to me is not "a lot of exposure", if the story never focuses on her that's just a background character being a background character.
Another one is **"**Carrot's bonding with the crew was very extensively portrayed through goofy and tragic moments alike, to me the only significant interaction she's had was with Chopper, and that wasn't on equal standing, she was his assistant. Sure, she had moments interacting with other SH's but they were always very minor in my mind. Maybe i'm underplaying them… But i think you are the ones who are putting too much stock into some really minor stuff.
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But there is good storytelling and there is bad storytelling. Stories where literally anything can happen because there are no rules to them tend to be bad ones. Also, there's a difference between constructive criticism and demanding the story to conform to your desires which is constantly frowned upon here
Good and bad storytelling is very subjective and consensus changes according to trends in culture, and even consensus is not an absolute metric.
Anyway, I'm not demanding anything. I have no power in this relationship and I'll take whatever happens, and then I'll have my final opinion after all is done. Meanwhile, it's perfectly fine for me to have prospects of what I think is right and organic based on my reading of the story. For example, if the treasure One Piece is literally a piece of poop, I'll be very disappointed because there's enough build up to have expectations for something more meaningful (although that would be a "laughing tale", lol). In the same way, I think Oda spent far too much time showing Carrot bonding with the crew and sharing affection and pain with them, so it would be awkward if that's not acknowledged at her departure.