Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

Razh

Opie fight, all the parts of first invasion, Komamura's last fight, EVERYTHING involving Mask de Masculine, Kenpachi vs Gremmy, Ink blot fight, Sniper's hilarious transformations, Mayuri vs hand, Askin vs people. All of those have potential with a good team.

Not to mention it can all be expanded and/or reworked where necessary.

I mean yeah, it's probably going to suck, but it's not like it couldn't end up being fun to watch. I know I won't be that invested, nor will I have expectations. That's a good starting point.

Xanegoh

@Razh:

Opie fight, all the parts of first invasion, Komamura's last fight, EVERYTHING involving Mask de Masculine, Kenpachi vs Gremmy, Ink blot fight, Sniper's hilarious transformations, Mayuri vs hand, Askin vs people. All of those have potential with a good team.

Not to mention it can all be expanded and/or reworked where necessary.

I mean yeah, it's probably going to suck, but it's not like it couldn't end up being fun to watch. I know I won't be that invested, nor will I have expectations. That's a good starting point.

It'll be fun to laugh at since we're fully aware of what's going to happen.

The best part of the final arc is all the build up for Ichigo's "true" bankai. And we never get to see what it can do. Though knowing kubo, it was probably just going to be "Beam Sword Even Biggerer".

Jaime

I remember reading on Appiled Logic that Kubo has a crystal engraved with his quotes all over, does anyone have a pic of that?

El-Matematico

It was a table: https://bleachness.livejournal.com/460435.html

.access timeco.

Did I detect Comic Sans?

Nobodyman

I have no doubt this is how the anime adaptation of the Thousand-Year Blood War arc came to be. Just replace Brak with Kubo.

Xanegoh

I like all the people in the comments just praising kubo for having quotes from Bleach printed onto the table leg. How delusional must you be to think this is a good thing?

Myu

I forgot the part about Ichigo's True Bankai lol. It was that thing Yach broke, right?

Is that supposed to be stronger than that fusion with sword thing Ichigo had against Aizen?

zeltrax225

Didn't Ichigo end Yach with his Shikai sword? Or was his new bankai just his new Shikai sword?
Man with all the powerups and different forms, the one that brought Yach down was SOUL SCIENCE

Xanegoh

It's especially infuriating how they fix Ichigo's bankai the second time. Orihime couldn't repair his original bankai with her bullshit powers, but bookmark guy inserted the memory of an unbroken bankai and that allowed her to fix it? If that's true, then why not have him go around and give all the shinigami memories of completed bankais? Why stop with this one pissant?

Marcotty

That was just Kubo's attempt to pretend that he could remember and reuse old characters like the cool mangakas, but having absolutely no idea what to do with them.

PatTraverse

I would not be surprised if he inserted the Fullbringers out of spite. No one wanted or cared about that arc so he decided to just plug them in there as a final middle finger.

Green_vs_Red

Seems kinda redundant given how everyone turned on the Captain’s towards the end of Huecdo Mundo.

Sengokusgoat

@Xanegoh:

It's especially infuriating how they fix Ichigo's bankai the second time. Orihime couldn't repair his original bankai with her bullshit powers, but bookmark guy inserted the memory of an unbroken bankai and that allowed her to fix it? If that's true, then why not have him go around and give all the shinigami memories of completed bankais? Why stop with this one pissant?

That was so great. Ywach's BS powers of altering the future prevent Orihime from using her BS powers of altering the present to fix it, so Tsukishima uses his BS powers of altering the past to alter the the effect of Ywach's BS powers so now Orihime can use her BS powers to fix it. It was like a competition of absurdly broken BS powers.

zeltrax225

Bleach is actually JoJo with less words and everything else

Xanegoh

From an interview with Tite Kubo, Anime Insider: Issue 61, October 2008

Interviewer: What do you think is the main theme of Bleach?

Kubo: In my work, I don't like to impose a message or theme onto the reader. I want the characters to develop oon their own and create the stories themselves, and it usually turns out very clever. So, I tend to do that sort of thing.

Razh

Well I bet that kind of approach makes the process more fun for him. And it even worked to a point.

But then it turned against him. Can't write a lengthy good story like that, without meticulously planning things in advance to minute detail.

PatTraverse

That strategy falls flat on it's face when the characters are all style and no substance. A perfect example is that Fullbringer that looked like a bartender with time powers only to turn himself into some lame musclebob that got one shotted by Kenpachi. Would love to see what a competent author could do with a lot of the characters that Kubo designed.

Razh

Lol, 2 dreams I have are Tite Kubo and Hiro Mashima collaborating with good writers.

I know it's never gonna happen, but still.

PatTraverse

Ego would never allow them to collaborate with someone else for sure. Mashima especially has no reason to since all his series have been long and successful. Why split the profits making high quality when you can get 100% of it making trash?

Razh

Yes, there's a reason I don't ever expect to see that.

Green_vs_Red

Well that and either a potential public falling out with each other or god forbid one passes away while the work is in syndication.

El-Matematico

Mashima himself said Fairy Tail was too long, he didn't plan ahead at all and kept going because his editors told him. He didn't understand the appeal of the series. By contrast, Edens Zero is way betters, as he does have a plan figured out this time.

Razh

It is? I read until the fight with Erza and then just dropped it. Didn't feel like reading one chapter a week.

KageKageKing

I don't know. I really liked "Anime will save the Universe" guy. Though I don't felt like reading after Not Gajeel appeared later on.

Zeorn

@PatTraverse:

Ego would never allow them to collaborate with someone else for sure. Mashima especially has no reason to since all his series have been long and successful. Why split the profits making high quality when you can get 100% of it making trash?

So they make trash and aren't competent authors, yet you seemed to have read them and if you seriously read all of Bleach thinking it was complete trash than that says a lot more about you than Kubo. According to you Kubo and Mashima got rich because millions of people (including you) bought and read their garbage, so I'd say they're geniuses in that regard. Just because you decided you don't like something doesn't mean it is garbage.

The D.

Not the right thread, but while the topic is up I actually liked Gajeel. He had an interesting personality/romance, and an actual damn character arc. His powers were also cooler than shonen manga protagonist #whoevencaresatthispoint.

HeartOfDarkness

Them being incompetent and them making money aren't even remotely connected.

PatTraverse

@Zeorn:

So they make trash and aren't competent authors, yet you seemed to have read them and if you seriously read all of Bleach thinking it was complete trash than that says a lot more about you than Kubo. According to you Kubo and Mashima got rich because millions of people (including you) bought and read their garbage, so I'd say they're geniuses in that regard. Just because you decided you don't like something doesn't mean it is garbage.

Your points are so lame that i will not spend the energy necessary to bring them down.

pariston_hill

@Zeorn:

So they make trash and aren't competent authors, yet you seemed to have read them and if you seriously read all of Bleach thinking it was complete trash than that says a lot more about you than Kubo. According to you Kubo and Mashima got rich because millions of people (including you) bought and read their garbage, so I'd say they're geniuses in that regard. Just because you decided you don't like something doesn't mean it is garbage.

It's called being a hack, there's a definition for it and they aren't the lone examples of it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@The:

Not the right thread, but while the topic is up I actually liked Gajeel. He had an interesting personality/romance, and an actual damn character arc. His powers were also cooler than shonen manga protagonist #whoevencaresatthispoint.

Second that. Gajevy is the only good thing that I took out of FT.

Marcotty

Always see people talking about getting back into the work with Eden's Zero, meanwhile I've just been enjoying the 100 Years Quest Spin-off. Whole thing so far has felt back into proper form. Granted, I've never had problems with fairy tail besides Erza's fights (usually) being terrible and the…extremely poor "final arc."

I've been finding myself getting more interested to watch bleach return, just to see the quincys in action... but if I do I'll definitely have to remember to skip the Yachiru reveal. Nothing managed to piss me off more than that and I don't want to go through it again.

Looking at my bleach dvd collection and seeing it end with the Bount Arc always reminds me a little of the disappointments... I should at least buy up to the Hueco Mundo invasion start sometime. I at least enjoyed that initial arrancar invasion, so I'm probably still a Bleach fan until that point.

El-Matematico

Well, Mashima still likes asspulls and time travel stuff, but at least now foreshadows things with enough time. He also toned down the nakama power and makes fun of it. And he doesn't blame the readers for not liking scifi unlike some other author…

zeltrax225

I randomly read this chapter of Eden Zero where the MC just

! despair and gets killed of
And that was so unlike Mashima and it makes me feel like giving his series a second chance.
Hopefully Eden Zero progress into something worthy.

On the other hand, Fairy Tail knew exactly who their readers are and what appeals to them. The fanservice, generic shounen one liners and friendship clichés knew exactly what they were doing.
If anything, Mashima and his group of editors and marketing team deserve respect for that ability.
So in a sense, it is a form of competency.
Bleach sales plummeted during full bringer to Quincy arc so I have no idea where the comparison is coming from.
Espada arc was pretty enjoyable in its early to mid points and if I recall correctly, the critics over here even enjoyed it.
The bashing only came once we are out of Hueco Muncho.

People should seriously stop trying to criticize something because it is popular.
Good storytelling is important but with today's landscape, if you want something to sell you need to be good at marketing and know your audience.
That's why editors and marketing depts exist.
It makes me sad that there's this manga Marry Grave was it? That was axed because of this reason.

Sure, a lot of hard work and effort is put into building a good story.
But understanding and delivering what your audience wants is a talent on its a own.
Rather than being on the same face of the coin, FT and Bleach were the exact opposite, of two faces on the same coin.
Kubo doesn't really care about what his audience wants and experiment with his overly pretentious (and in his own eyes probably innovative) writing whereas Mashima just pulls the same formula and fanservice because he knows that sells.

PatTraverse

@zeltrax225:

People should seriously stop trying to criticize something because it is popular.

Pretty ironic statement since we are on a forum built around one of the most popular series of all time.

People have a right to criticize whatever they want as long as it is done in a respectful manner. If you do not like it, you are free to not participate or just simply go elsewhere where they will worship any series of your choosing.

HeartOfDarkness

Pandering and copying/pasting popular elements into your work is now considered a talent. Well shit, Stephenie Meyer and E.L.James must be really talented writers because they sell copies and know exactly which group of teen girls they are appealing to.

Oh, the shit people come up with in order to justify reading garbage.

maxterdexter

Yes, identifying and reuSing elements that resonate with the majority of the audience is a talent, and making use of it to become successful is a valid pursuit, as most actually talented writers will tell you.

HeartOfDarkness

actually talented writers

For example? ….....

Razh

I like how you guys just chose to misread what zeltrax actually wrote. It's pretty clear what was meant with it, and not sure what is there to disagree on.

@PatTraverse:

Pretty ironic statement since we are on a forum built around one of the most popular series of all time.

People have a right to criticize whatever they want as long as it is done in a respectful manner. If you do not like it, you are free to not participate or just simply go elsewhere where they will worship any series of your choosing.

Don't be that person, lol.

.access timeco.

@zeltrax225:

I randomly read this chapter of Eden Zero where the MC just

! despair and gets killed of
And that was so unlike Mashima and it makes me feel like giving his series a second chance.
Hopefully Eden Zero progress into something worthy.

On the other hand, Fairy Tail knew exactly who their readers are and what appeals to them. The fanservice, generic shounen one liners and friendship clichés knew exactly what they were doing.
If anything, Mashima and his group of editors and marketing team deserve respect for that ability.
So in a sense, it is a form of competency.
Bleach sales plummeted during full bringer to Quincy arc so I have no idea where the comparison is coming from.
Espada arc was pretty enjoyable in its early to mid points and if I recall correctly, the critics over here even enjoyed it.
The bashing only came once we are out of Hueco Muncho.

People should seriously stop trying to criticize something because it is popular.
Good storytelling is important but with today's landscape, if you want something to sell you need to be good at marketing and know your audience.
That's why editors and marketing depts exist.
It makes me sad that there's this manga Marry Grave was it? That was axed because of this reason.

Sure, a lot of hard work and effort is put into building a good story.
But understanding and delivering what your audience wants is a talent on its a own.
Rather than being on the same face of the coin, FT and Bleach were the exact opposite, of two faces on the same coin.
Kubo doesn't really care about what his audience wants and experiment with his overly pretentious (and in his own eyes probably innovative) writing whereas Mashima just pulls the same formula and fanservice because he knows that sells.

The only point I disagree here is that I do think Kubo was actively trying to give what his readers wanted. He pretty much only kept shoving the popular characters down our throats and reducing them to the specific traits that people used to like them for - and then expanding those traits to every character. Reason why by the last arc pretty much every single character is a smug machine of throwing one-liners with a emotionless face.
The problem here wasn't that he was not trying to pander, but that he was doing it with so little effort it failed to captivate.

PatTraverse

@Razh:

I like how you guys just chose to misread what zeltrax actually wrote. It's pretty clear what was meant with it, and not sure what is there to disagree on.

Don't be that person, lol.

It was not clear at all. The post is so poorly written that it was painful to read it once and i have no desire to go back to it to try and decipher it once more.

HeartOfDarkness

TL;DR; Writing a shitty series can be a talent because you sold copies and have fans who bought them.

Remember guys, if you steal elements from other series and basically execute them in the most generic and laziest way then you are talented. Who cares about author voice, creativity, trying to put your own spin, or writing skills etc…. when you can copy popular works and make money.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Razh:

not sure what is there to disagree on.

Pretty much says all right here.

.access timeco.

Chill, man. I don't know if you two had some beef before, but your last 2 posts came out as 100% off the mark less because you missed the point he was trying to make, mostly because of your completely uncalled for aggressiveness and eagerness to offend.

PatTraverse

@HeartOfDarkness:

TL;DR; Writing a shitty series can be a talent because you sold copies and have fans who bought them.

Remember guys, if you steal elements from other series and basically execute them in the most generic and laziest way then you are talented. Who cares about author voice, creativity, trying to put your own spin, or writing skills etc…. when you can copy popular works and make money.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Pretty much says all right here.

If someone dared to say on a movie board that Michael Bay was a genius that is absolved of all criticism because his movies have grossed a ton of money, that person would become a laughing stock. Quite sad that this type of reasoning is somehow accepted here.

pariston_hill

Nobody is saying they are above criticism, or that Kubo and Mashima are good writers. They are good hacks, they know/knew what their target audience wanted and gave them it, in excess latter on to disastrous levels.
The impression that is being generated here again, as it was on KnY thread a few weeks ago, is that finding enjoyable a mediocre of bad series (which as in any artistic production is a matter of subjective taste) is a badge of bad taste that automatically invalidates your opinion.

HeartOfDarkness

Because yes, any artistic work is created in a vacuum and then randomly shat on the paper.

Remember, there isn't any difference between the film making of The Room and The Citizen Kane. It's all subjective.

Or so is the go-to-response for majority of people nowadays when it comes to understanding criticism.

pariston_hill

Oh yes because there's absolute no subjectivity when it comes to art. People shouldn't be allowed to enjoy Stephen King because Shakespeare could be called an objectively better writer.

HeartOfDarkness

Nice reading comprehension you got there, bud.

Mind showing the response where I mentioned that you can't enjoy something?

I'm gonna assume that this isn't one of those "I got nothing to say so let me just pull out something that wasn't even mentioned as a way to support my irrelevant point".

Let's see if there is more to this conversation or will it end with "SUBJECTIVE" as some ground-breaking statement.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

But here; let me make the obvious distinction here.

Art is subjective in terms of how YOU or I feel towards it.

The craftmanship of the art isn't subjective. A poorly written character is poorly written regardless of how you feel about it. Just like how a poorly written series is a poorly written series. You can enjoy it. You can love it. You can consider it to the best thing since slice bread. But that doesn't make it.....not poorly written. But if you really enjoy it then it shouldn't really matter what the quality is.

Going back to Citizen Kane and The Room; some people might find The Room to be more enjoyable than Kane and might like it better. I myself don't care for Kane. But the actual quality, skills and the impact on the industry behind it? That is factual. That isn't "opinion" or "subjective".

Cockycent

Heard the anime was announced. Are they doing the whole thing over or just the last arc? I gotta see it, top 5

HeartOfDarkness

Its not a reboot so just covering the final arc as far as i know.

Green_vs_Red

@.access:

The only point I disagree here is that I do think Kubo was actively trying to give what his readers wanted.

Was that why he kept making Chad so useless?