Seriously tho i would love any sort of marine POV story
Coby, kiji, smokah, Garp. Just pick one
Seriously tho i would love any sort of marine POV story
Coby, kiji, smokah, Garp. Just pick one
You can't tell me the WG arent slackers while literally providing NO PROOF of the opposite.
Luffy will be one Road Poneglyph away from getting Laugh Tale's location, what have the WG done to prevent that?
And again, the last time we've heard of Teach he was going to compete with the Marines for something, If Teach comes out victorious out of that one, it'll be yet more proof that's he's the bigger threat.
We still don't fully understand the gravity of the threat, but we know ancient civilizations have likened it to night. The moon is the symbol of hope in the darkness. It's the most repeated symbol in One Piece. They and whatever power is behind them have ruled the world for 800 years. Their rise to power includes something so crucial that history itself has been erased. We've seen what their rule means repeatedly. It's the reason One Piece exists. All of these things were in motion long before Teach was born. That is a much bigger story than two pirates fighting over the right to possess the treasure. The treasure is intended to fulfill a purpose.
Imu is not a last minute addition. We haven't even begun to figure out who he/it is and what he/it wants. We know he/it rules above the World Government, but to what end is not yet clear. There is still time left in the series. Most series do not introduce the final antagonist early in the series.
I don't know what the hell series you people are even talking about where the main villain is an 'evil version of the protagonist introduced early in the series' because it sure doesn't fit the other big shonen like Dragon Ball, Hunter x Hunter, YuYu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Fullmetal Alchemist or even Bleach and Naruto. It's so funny to me that you believe it to be the most generic trope for big shonen villains and yet want Oda to do the most generic thing with One Piece.
Dragon Ball - final villain Buu; Closest thing to 'Goku but evil' was Vegeta, who he fought before Freeza, Cell, and Buu.
Rurouni Kenshin - final villain Enishi; Closest to 'Kenshin but evil' was Shishio, who he fought in the arc before Enishi
YuYu Hakusho - No final villain; Ends with a tournament; Closest to 'Yusuke but evil' was Sensui, who he fought in the arc before the last tournament
Bleach - DNF, but Ywach was a Quincy; The 'Ichigo but evil' villain was in the arc before the final arc
Naruto - Depends if you count Sasuke or Kaguya as the 'final villain'; Sasuke was the final battle, but wasn't really 'Naruto but evil'; More like fated enemies
Fullmetal Alchemist - I'll grant you Father was introduced early on, but he's hardly 'Ed but evil'; Different type of series with no real distinct arcs. It's one continuous narrative
It's really NOT a common trope because it would be generic and boring and the opposite of what Oda does with One Piece and not at all in line with the way he writes conflict. I didn't finish, but I think Fairy Tail might have ended similar to what you're expecting from One Piece. Which, Fairy Tail is like the more generic, more trope heavy, less intricate version of One Piece.
If anything, it is more common for a protagonist to face their 'shadow', their evil mirror, in the descent phase of the cyclic hero's journey at the 'world navel' or the 'innermost cave'. They face their evil mirror before claiming the elixir of life, the treasure guarded at the bottom of the 'special world'; The final phase of the journey is then 'return', taking the thing they learned, the treasure they discovered, and having been transformed by their confrontation with the shadow, using it to transform the world. Teach is Luffy's shadow.
What would you consider last minute then? 21 years and roughly 3/4ths in a long running story would be considered late by most people. And that is just the mention of his existance, at this rate we'll be close to 4/5ths done before he shows any agency so we would have to be funnel fed who he is in bulk to establish him somewhat properly. And when compared to Blackbeards organic growth over these decades Imu looks all the more tacked-on.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
No, I obviously don't know what One Piece is, but we can piece together its intended purpose and the significance it has to the entire world. Xebec was defeated 39 years ago. This was 11 years before Roger even began his final journey in the Grand Line. He's the enemy Roger did defeat. I do agree that Teach will take after Xebec and create a new group of powerful pirates… and he'll also fail, like Xebec because that is not the way to change the world and definitely not the way to reach One Piece. I don't know what One Piece is, but I do know that for the story to have any meaning, it should not be possible to do the thing One Piece is meant to do without One Piece. If the thing can be done without One Piece, One Piece was never needed, which makes the entire story pointless. You know what One Piece becomes then? The friends you made along the way. That's the only treasure left because the treasure would be worthless if Teach did the thing without the treasure and all Luffy needs to do is beat up Teach.
What Roger 'couldn't' is the biggest thing. It is more important than beating up someone like Teach.
What is the thing "One Piece" is meant to do exactly? If it's not just something to dethrone Imu; I don't see the problem with Blackbeard doing that. Even if the "One Piece" is just for that, nothing says "I'm the main villain" like making things worse. Because as bad as Imu may be I think Blackbeard would be worse as "king of the world". I'm not buying that "One Piece" is just something to defeat Imu with though.
Just wanted to note that you're all awful sexists.
Women can be last minute final villains too (and they do it for a quarter of a Belli!).
What would you consider last minute then? 21 years and roughly 3/4ths in a long running story would be considered late by most people. And that is just the mention of his existance, at this rate we'll be close to 4/5ths done before he shows any agency so we would have to be funnel fed who he is in bulk to establish him somewhat properly. And when compared to Blackbeards organic growth over these decades Imu looks all the more tacked-on.
We didn't even know about the empty throne until the Levely. Im is going to tie directly into the void century most likely, something else we know practically nothing about. Btw, we also just found out that Kaido has a son after all these years. I'm going to trust that Oda has a plan.
Oda has made Blackbeard Luffy's dark opposite and given him a full crew of even size, and has been building him up for 20 years. It's a shonen, for the grand finale all the main characters are going to get fights if it's done right.
Oda hasn't spent any time building up a comprable force for the marines or World Government as final enemies. There is… Im? And Aikanu, a completely boring attack dog? And...?
We don't know anything about Im yet, true, and he's obviously got plot importance but... he's not what's been set up for decades and has no one to go with him.
Versus the guy with the ambition that is actually shaking the world? WHo captured Ace? Killed Whitebeard and declared it his era? Who wrecked the revolutionaries in their home base, killed Absalom, and has Aojiji keeping close to him? Who Shanks keeps warning about and is going to clash with? Who liked that disgusting Cherry pie?
Yeah, Imu will have plot importance, but he's not the one moving the plot.
Also Kenshin's final villain was 100% a dark mirror. Enishi swore revenge and wanted to murder because of the death of his sister, while Kenshin took that same death and swore to never kill again, and they both interpret her final wish very differently.
YuYuHakusho ended like it did because Togashi got bored and cut it short so the last arc doesn't count for much. While the previous two arcs both had a dark mirrors.
Bleach and Naruto both went too long and had shit endings. Why would you pull up Bleach as good example of ANYTHING?
Naruto's main challenge for most the series, and his final challenge, was saving Sasuke, not moon rabbit lady that came out of nowhere. He and Sasuke are the ones that split their story the whole way, and who had the final battle of the series that Naruto lost his arm to. .
And Dragonball absolutely had dark mirriors. It was never about "give the entire cast someone to fight" it always boiled down to just Goku fighting... with Krillin, Yamcha and Tien to jobber early on, and Piccollo, Gohan and Vegeta there to jobber later. That was always about just giving one guy one good fight, and though the world exploding threats got bigger as it went, it never really went beyond that scope. ANd yes, ALL the villains were dark mirrors.
Vegeta with the heritage is obvious, and Frieza was HIS counterpart, not Goku's, which is why all the actual interesting dynamics are between them (Both royalty taking their pride and ego too far) while Goku and Frieza's only interesting conflict is how cool their fight was. Goku and Perfect Cell both loved to fight for fighting's sake. Notably though, Cell was GOHAN'S mirror, as Gohan was the pacifist that didn't want to fight against the guy that lived to fight. and Buu? Buu is probably the closest enemy to Goku the series ever had, and its no wonder it didn't work for Gohan to deal with him.
Goku and Buu are 100% a mirror. They love to fight, learn techniques from just seeing them once, have a love for food, are man children, have crude mannerisms and are often rude, are much smarter than people give them credit for, which makes their enemies underestimate them, and can be playful and goofy while beating someone senseless. Buu (at least in the cases of Super/Kid Buu) is an entity who doesn't care about anything besides itself and destroys and kills for fun and that's where the dividing line is... but Fat Buu who has almost all the same traits fits in with the heroes just fine... And Goku's actual final opponent in the series was Uub, a young warrior that Goku wanted to train, because Buu was just like him and he wanted to fight him again, just without the rampant murderer aspect to him.
FMA had a thematic opponent as well. Father was HOENHEIM'S counterpart, not Ed's. Ed's journey was to clean up the mistakes he personally made and realize Alchemy wasn't the solution to everything.
You want to pull out other series that have more obvious dark mirrors? Claymore, MHA, Berserk, Eyeshield, GaoGaiGar, Nausicaa, every Gundam series, InuYasha, Pokemon, Yugioh...
the hero's dark mirror doesn't have to be their literal evil twin opposite with the exact same powers and abilities like they're an Iron Man villain, that gets dull fast. it's when they share traits and both could have come from the same place, could have been friends if it was different, where you're seeing the same ideals but twisted, or when they just come at it as complete opposites on some key point, that's what makes it interesting and compelling.
One Piece has consistently had Luffy fight other guys whose dreams were corrupt and bad. And they almost always boil down to aI want to rule things" vibe to the enemy whereas Luffy is just "I want to be free." And notably, the exceptions to this like Lucchi, who are just mindless killers doing the governments work... are always the most boring and least interesting villains, because there's no real ideal there to clash against, they're just a brick wall to knock down. (And Aikanu fits that mold too.)
Oda has made Blackbeard Luffy's dark opposite and given him a full crew of even size, and has been building him up for 20 years. It's a shonen, for the grand finale all the main characters are going to get fights if it's done right.
Oda hasn't spent any time building up a comprable force for the marines or World Government as final enemies. There is… Im? And Aikanu, a completely boring attack dog? And...?
We don't know anything about Im yet, true, and he's obviously got plot importance but... he's not what's been set up for decades and has no one to go with him.
Versus the guy with the ambition that is actually shaking the world? WHo captured Ace? Killed Whitebeard and declared it his era? Who wrecked the revolutionaries in their home base, killed Absalom, and has Aojiji keeping close to him? Who Shanks keeps warning about and is going to clash with? Who liked that disgusting Cherry pie?
Yeah, Imu will have plot importance, but he's not the one moving the plot.
Also Kenshin's final villain was 100% a dark mirror. Enishi swore revenge and wanted to murder because of the death of his sister, while Kenshin took that same death and swore to never kill again, and they both interpret her final wish very differently.
YuYuHakusho ended like it did because Togashi got bored and cut it short so the last arc doesn't count for much. While the previous two arcs both had a dark mirrors.
Bleach and Naruto both went too long and had shit endings. Why would you pull up Bleach as good example of ANYTHING?
Naruto's main challenge for most the series, and his final challenge, was saving Sasuke, not moon rabbit lady that came out of nowhere. He and Sasuke are the ones that split their story the whole way, and who had the final battle of the series that Naruto lost his arm to. .
And Dragonball absolutely had dark mirriors. It was never about "give the entire cast someone to fight" it always boiled down to just Goku fighting... with Krillin, Yamcha and Tien to jobber early on, and Piccollo, Gohan and Vegeta there to jobber later. That was always about just giving one guy one good fight, and though the world exploding threats got bigger as it went, it never really went beyond that scope. ANd yes, ALL the villains were dark mirrors.
Vegeta with the heritage is obvious, and Frieza was HIS counterpart, not Goku's, which is why all the actual interesting dynamics are between them (Both royalty taking their pride and ego too far) while Goku and Frieza's only interesting conflict is how cool their fight was. Goku and Perfect Cell both loved to fight for fighting's sake. Notably though, Cell was GOHAN'S mirror, as Gohan was the pacifist that didn't want to fight against the guy that lived to fight. and Buu? Buu is probably the closest enemy to Goku the series ever had, and its no wonder it didn't work for Gohan to deal with him.
Goku and Buu are 100% a mirror. They love to fight, learn techniques from just seeing them once, have a love for food, are man children, have crude mannerisms and are often rude, are much smarter than people give them credit for, which makes their enemies underestimate them, and can be playful and goofy while beating someone senseless. Buu (at least in the cases of Super/Kid Buu) is an entity who doesn't care about anything besides itself and destroys and kills for fun and that's where the dividing line is... but Fat Buu who has almost all the same traits fits in with the heroes just fine... And Goku's actual final opponent in the series was Uub, a young warrior that Goku wanted to train, because Buu was just like him and he wanted to fight him again, just without the rampant murderer aspect to him.
FMA had a thematic opponent as well. Father was HOENHEIM'S counterpart, not Ed's. Ed's journey was to clean up the mistakes he personally made and realize Alchemy wasn't the solution to everything.
You want to pull out other series that have more obvious dark mirrors? Claymore, MHA, Berserk, Eyeshield, GaoGaiGar, Nausicaa, every Gundam series, InuYasha, Pokemon, Yugioh...
the hero's dark mirror doesn't have to be their literal evil twin opposite with the exact same powers and abilities like they're an Iron Man villain, that gets dull fast. it's when they share traits and both could have come from the same place, could have been friends if it was different, where you're seeing the same ideals but twisted, or when they just come at it as complete opposites on some key point, that's what makes it interesting and compelling.
One Piece has consistently had Luffy fight other guys whose dreams were corrupt and bad. And they almost always boil down to aI want to rule things" vibe to the enemy whereas Luffy is just "I want to be free." And notably, the exceptions to this like Lucchi, who are just mindless killers doing the governments work... are always the most boring and least interesting villains, because there's no real ideal there to clash against, they're just a brick wall to knock down. (And Aikanu fits that mold too.)
You clearly didn't understand my post if you thought I was elevating Bleach as a paragon of quality considering I didn't bother finishing the series. YOU keep repeating that 'evil shadow version of main protagonist is shonen 101' which I was refuting by citing many of the most popular shonen.
I don't think I agree with you about… well, anything, so it's not surprising I completely disagree with everything you say in this thread too.
'some plot importance' is a HUGE understatement. It's obvious that there is a MUCH BIGGER STORY than who gets to become Pirate King. Whoever is given that distinction has to shoulder some heavy responsibility. Roger was too early to do it, but Luffy will arrive at just the right time. It has been obvious One Piece was about something more, something bigger for a long, long time.
Teach is Luffy's shadow - the one he has to face to earn the right to be Roger's successor and reach One Piece.
You're ignoring the story and focusing only on a character and saying 'but it has to follow the shonen tropes! THE TROPES! IT MUST FOLLOW THEM!'
I'm not even saying it has to be Imu, though I think it is likely. I argued with people in this thread or its predecessor five years ago that there was something or someone above the Five Elders, to which people, yourself included, responded with ridicule. Well, there is something / someone above the elders, though we don't exactly know what he / it is yet.
I agree the intent of One Piece is not simply to 'dethrone Imu'; I believe it's the key to changing the world. The world itself is not in its proper order. All the Straw Hats dreams tie into this in some way - whether it's mapping the world or discovering the All Blue. Blackbeard is not the one who set the world out of order. One Piece, the Poneglyphs, etc. were all set in their places long ago to bring about the 'New Dawn'. They're meant to right an ancient wrong. Teach is not responsible for any of that. He's not the cause of the Void Century. He's not the one Roger was too early to face. Becoming Pirate King and inheriting One Piece means shouldering that burden of history. Whitebeard knew the truth and looked at Teach with pity. He warned the World Government about a big war that would come after the treasure is discovered. Teach declared this era his. Well the previous era was Whitebeards and he didn't rule the world.
You're just so focused on this specific character, that fitting him in as the final villain requires ridiculous logical somersaults to work around the bigger plot points.
-Someone, probably Joy Boy, left One Piece on Laugh Tale 800 Years ago
-Allies around the world devised a secret message system to preserve the message for the future and guarded the Poneglyphs for 800 years
-Something monumental happened in the 100 years which preceded the rise of the World Government; Those 100 years of history have been erased and forgotten
-Roger discovered Laugh Tale and learned the truth of the world; The world foist the title 'Pirate King' upon him; He didn't do the things he did to be called 'Pirate King'. He was called 'Pirate King' because of the things he did
-Roger was dying and realized he would not live to the appointed day; He was too early; He passed the message along for a successor
-There are prophecies from many people around the world: Kozuki Clan, Minks, Fishmen, Sea Kings, Zunesha, all waiting for a special day
-Roger told Whitebeard the truth; Whitebeard was grooming Ace to be Roger's successor
Teach does not factor into any of this; He's a rival to inherit One Piece
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
We don't know what One Piece is, but I don't think it's a weapon.
Yeah, that is why I also included "thing/weapon" in that phrase. Regardless, you haven't answered my question. IF One Piece is meant to be inherited to change the world. And Luffy is the one that should inherit it for the betterment of the world. What happens when One Piece is inherited by the wrong person, or misused? Is One Piece coded with do good only or genetic limits like Sanji's raid suit? Why is Luffy the only one that can use One Piece? We as readers understand that he is the rightful inheritor, but what prevents anyone else from using it otherwise? Whom is to say that the World Government did not use One Piece to start the Void Century?
Anyways, I do not think One Piece is a weapon neither because it is redundant to have another super secret super weapon, when there are 3 secret super weapons already.
In terms of why Teach? How I see it.
There are 3 ancient weapons. All of them probably around the same level of destructive power. Having met Poseidon and knowing full well she will be Luffy's ally. To have any sort of tension, the other 2 ancient weapons must be in the hands of antagonists. Oda could have Luffy fight against one of them the arc before the final war. And only make it a 1v1. I am hoping for a battle royale between 3 factions at the same time.
It is possible that the final villain, whomever, acquires two ancient weapons and Luffy needs to fight both at the same time. I find this unlikely. The level of power of the weapons seem to be off the charts. Worse than having Big Mom and Kaido to fight against. And even though it seems the alliance will have to fight two emperor crews, it is very likely that Big Mom ends up as a neutral force. As in, totally trying to kill Luffy, but also not allowing Kaido to steal the kill. Or Big Mom's amnesia.
Which is why I think it would be easier to handle for Oda if each weapon was affiliated with a unique faction. Luffy - Poseidon we know. Whom gets the other two? I assume the government has one of the ancient weapons.
My speculation is that at one point, Blackbeard will have a decision to make, between going to Laugh Tale or acquiring an ancient weapon. He will choose the ancient weapon as it is assured to be a boost in power, and by doing so truly becoming "not the man Roger was waiting for". It also gives a perfect opportunity for Shanks and Blackbeard to happen. If Joy Boy's funny story is supposed to be this world wide, war sparking event once it is discovered. Then there really is no need for Blackbeard to acquire it. We now know that Shanks can deal with the Elder Stars directly. If Blackbeard indeed acquired a weapon, and does so after defeating Shanks, then the government will have to unleash whatever weapons and army they have to stop Blackbeard. I also think that Blackbeard will test the weapon against Elbaf. And if this all coincides with Luffy going to Laugh Tale and exposing the void century and igniting the world war. The government were already preparing for a cleanse. Well now everyone against the government gets cleaned up nicely.
So yes, the government will be part of it. They are the people that will try to hit the reset button. Cleanse and repeat. Void century 2.0.
Luffy is part of it by being the one that will break the cycle and break the fake empty throne.
But whomever get the third weapon, in my head Blackbeard, will want to do something as well. Blackbeard would sit openly on the not so Empty throne. I find that Blackbeard has the potential, if not already, to be worse than the celestial dragons. And we know that Law can make people immortal. So Blackbeard could make himself immortal, do his own void century and become god of the new-new world.
Teach isn't the final villain and it doesn't take anything from him.
He is the dark side of D. They will clash, with their clash deciding on who is the D that was promised. He is THE villian no matter what. Him not being the final one doesn't take anything from him.
@Myu:
He is the dark side of D. They will clash, with their clash deciding on who is the D that was promised.
We already know that Teach isn't the one by Whitebeard's admittance. So why do we need a clash to know the answer?
Putting Imu as the final antagonist is like placing a spiky peg into a round pie-loving hole.
The world goverment benefits from the slatemate, but they do not like it, Laughtale being over there safe and beaconing, the rocks being all over the world being sought after, pirates being left to their own devices just because they offer some buffer and feed the cold war, they set the stage, but this is not their game to play, as they are a stagnant force of order, just like every other foe that luffy has faced before.
We didn't even know about the empty throne until the Levely. Im is going to tie directly into the void century most likely, something else we know practically nothing about. Btw, we also just found out that Kaido has a son after all these years. I'm going to trust that Oda has a plan.
I mean i hope he manages to salvage imu into something palatable as much as the next guy. All i'm saying is 21 years to the first glimpse is a loong time. Wonder if its the longest? I mean barring stuff like GoT that just goes unpublished for years at the time. Like is there a regularly published story with a bigger picture that took more than two decades to reveal the existance of their villain? Like did anyone go for two and a half, maybe three decades? Would just be fun to know on a trivia basis.
I mean i hope he manages to salvage imu into something palatable as much as the next guy. All i'm saying is 21 years to the first glimpse is a loong time. Wonder if its the longest? I mean barring stuff like GoT that just goes unpublished for years at the time. Like is there a regularly published story with a bigger picture that took more than two decades to reveal the existance of their villain? Like did anyone go for two and a half, maybe three decades? Would just be fun to know on a trivia basis.
If you don't like Imu's late addition to the story then won't you be happy when Blackbeard takes her/his place?
I mean i hope he manages to salvage imu into something palatable as much as the next guy. All i'm saying is 21 years to the first glimpse is a loong time. Wonder if its the longest? I mean barring stuff like GoT that just goes unpublished for years at the time. Like is there a regularly published story with a bigger picture that took more than two decades to reveal the existance of their villain? Like did anyone go for two and a half, maybe three decades? Would just be fun to know on a trivia basis.
I really don't share your feelings.
As a secret figure of the WG that nobody knows about, Im-sama's revelation came in good time and reasonable anticipation. It's important to realize that we haven't arrived yet at the endgame of One Piece, and that all we know are small crumbs of foreshadowing scattered throughout the series, so it's not a last minute introduction. Even if we make an effort to look at past sagas to try to figure out where and when the revelation should have happened instead, there was not a perfect time before, either because it would be too soon or because there was no context for it. Even the Tenryuubito themselves were only introduced around chapter 500 in Sabaody.
More importantly, the revelation didn't change our long-term perception of the WG, its inner workings, its hypocrisy and its corruption. In fact, the "plot twist" of Im-sama's revelation was only subverting a notion that we discovered only a few chapters before, which is that nobody is allowed to sit on the Empty Throne. A lie. But this "plot twist" was only a confirmation of something that we already knew for a fact since long before: the fact that the Tenryuubito rule over the world and are above all its kings, and they do as they want without restraint. So at least connotatively the Tenryuubito were always sitting on the throne of the world.
That is true. We actually had no clear idea how the WG worked in its upper echelons . I remember there were debates over whether the World Nobles had a leader and all that. Hell, we still don't know how the 20 families organize themselves (and the notion of 20 families in itself is something we only learnt in Dressrosa).
We knew who handled the world goverment around the same time that we meet Blackbeard. The elder stars were revealed back during the travel to Jaya.
Imu, Kong, Rox, they feel extra, and tacked on, as Whitebeard, the elders, Sengoku were introduced organically.
The only one I feel was "tacked on" was "Xebec" but his ambition is pretty much what made me believe Blackbeard would be the final villain. If it wasn't for that I would agree that he was just meant to be Luffy's final obstacle to reach one piece/ become pirate king.
We knew who handled the world goverment around the same time that we meet Blackbeard. The elder stars were revealed back during the travel to Jaya.
Imu, Kong, Rox, they feel extra, and tacked on, as Whitebeard, the elders, Sengoku were introduced organically.
I only agree with Kong from this list, mainly because he hasn't done anything and I really don't see the point of his position, especially post-TS.
And Rocks in particular is just a way of establishing that the Yonko have a history together beyond being adversaries. I'd have a problem with it if Xebec was still alive, but I highly doubt that'll happen.
If you don't like Imu's late addition to the story then won't you be happy when Blackbeard takes her/his place?
Oh i'm still firmly team Blackbeard. I'm just discussing the what ifs.
I really don't share your feelings.
As a secret figure of the WG that nobody knows about, Im-sama's revelation came in good time and reasonable anticipation. It's important to realize that we haven't arrived yet at the endgame of One Piece, and that all we know are small crumbs of foreshadowing scattered throughout the series, so it's not a last minute introduction. Even if we make an effort to look at past sagas to try to figure out where and when the revelation should have happened instead, there was not a perfect time before, either because it would be too soon or because there was no context for it. Even the Tenryuubito themselves were only introduced around chapter 500 in Sabaody.
More importantly, the revelation didn't change our long-term perception of the WG, its inner workings, its hypocrisy and its corruption. In fact, the "plot twist" of Im-sama's revelation was only subverting a notion that we discovered only a few chapters before, which is that nobody is allowed to sit on the Empty Throne. A lie. But this "plot twist" was only a confirmation of something that we already knew for a fact since long before: the fact that the Tenryuubito rule over the world and are above all its kings, and they do as they want without restraint. So at least connotatively the Tenryuubito were always sitting on the throne of the world.
Yes it is hard for us to see eye to eye on this. Not to do a point by point adress since its fairly pointless, but i'll just dump my disjointed thoughts here. In my mind four years and some change away from the end of what is slated for a 27 year run time is definitely the end game. And in this end game to try to peddle an oh you didn't know we had a double secret final villain you need to get to know is just poor form. Even more so when you haven't even adressed the villains with proper build up yet. Instead of expanding on and harvesting the plant you carefully grew over decades you dump some dirt on it and try to grow a new one. Trying to replace fruit ripe for the picking with some first year apples not even fit to make cider out of is just a shame in my book
Even before we learned about Xebec, which to me, clinched it 100% for Teach, the fact that Imu considers him just as much of a threat to itself as Luffy is a pretty clear indicator that the WG will be brought down by the actions of the Will of D., first and foremost. Then they battle it out, once and for all.
It wouldn't be hard to interpret those panels in chapter 908 as Luffy and Blackbeard having to fight first for who gets to challenge Imu.
Luckily it won't be that simple and Dragon, for example, will also have a role to play.
That bugs post is gonna be a whopper once it drops
That bugs post is gonna be a whopper once it drops
Too small. I've got a triple whopper, instead.
!
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
To be serious for a moment.
Oda has been having Shanks talk about how dangerous Teach is for years. First trying to get it through to Whitebeard that he should call Ace back and almost certainly trying to get it through to the Elders about Teach. For me, that part was the most powerful moment during the Levely, a pirate (even an emperor) was able to have a conversation with them as an equal (even during the talks for who would be Crocs replacement happend during Jaya, a matter they cared about, it was between the marines and the warlords). Hell, Teach gave Shanks his scars. And if that's not a red flag that red hair is going to croak under Blackbeard's hands, well...
Almost much as Luffy, Teach has been the one has bringing about the most change in the world. Teach's duel on Banaro is the incident that set into motion the most important event in pre-timeskip, the fall of Whitebeard, whom Teach delivered the final blow on and later took his "spot" as emperor. Teach (like Luffy) also broke into Impel Down and let loose a host of level 6 prisoners. Teach sent the Revolutionary Army, including Dragon, running from their hideout, and likely took most of their findings and weapons, weakening them.
And right now, Teach is on his way to obtain something that the marines are also after, which I'm 90 % sure is Pluton (which, I’m starting to think is dangerous, sure, but also can be used beneficially).
Oda has long made it clear that the status quo of the world needs to end, but Teach was always a representative of the danger that lurks when big changes occur, and you don't get to see that in full unless you see the consequences of the old order fall first.
Too small. I've got a triple whopper, instead.
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To be serious for a moment.
Oda has been having Shanks talk about how dangerous Teach is for years. First trying to get it through to Whitebeard that he should call Ace back and almost certainly trying to get it through to the Elders about Teach. For me, that part was the most powerful moment during the Levely, a pirate (even an emperor) was able to have a conversation with them as an equal (even during the talks for who would be Crocs replacement happend during Jaya, a matter they cared about, it was between the marines and the warlords). Hell, Teach gave Shanks his scars. And if that's not a red flag that red hair is going to croak under Blackbeard's hands, well...
Almost much as Luffy, Teach has been the one has bringing about the most change in the world. Teach's duel on Banaro is the incident that set into motion the most important event in pre-timeskip, the fall of Whitebeard, whom Teach delivered the final blow on and later took his "spot" as emperor. Teach (like Luffy) also broke into Impel Down and let loose a host of level 6 prisoners. Teach sent the Revolutionary Army, including Dragon, running from their hideout, and likely took most of their findings and weapons, weakening them.
And right now, Teach is on his way to obtain something that the marines are also after, which I'm 90 % sure is Pluton (which, I’m starting to think is dangerous, sure, but also can be used beneficially).
Oda has long made it clear that the status quo of the world needs to end, but Teach was always a representative of the danger that lurks when big changes occur, and you don't get to see that in full unless you see the consequences of the old order fall first.
Yeah, that would all be well and good if there wasn't a bigger threat than Blackbeard that has held power for 800 years. How long does Blackbeard get to hold power for in your version of the story where Teach fulfills the will of Joy Boy and Roger by fixing whatever is broken in the world, but making it even worse? A day? A week? Do we have a 19 year time skip where Luffy's twin children save the world from Teach's evil Empire?
Who said Blackbeard would fulfill Joy Boy and Roger's will? If he fullfills anyone's will, it will be Xebec's
I don't think Xebec's will can be fulfilled. I think the magnitude of the task in changing the world is being severely underestimated.
People say Teach will acquire an ancient weapon and that'll allow him to depose Im / The World Government.
The Ancient Civilization is believed to have possessed all 3 and they fell to the 20 Kings.
I don't think it's simply a matter of defeating someone really powerful. I think the task is much, much more involved than that. I don't think the Ancient Civilization were the good guys and I don't think the 20 Kings were the bad guys. I think it was a conflict that whatever force controls the world manipulated to rise to power. I do not think that it represents an idle or passive threat.
Simply put, the conjecture in this thread seems to be that Blackbeard will come to possess either an ancient weapon or One Piece and depose whatever evil force controls the world to become an even eviler force and control the world for a few days before Luffy shows up to beat him up.
In this case, I don't think you can separate the task of removing the evil force that controls the world from taking over the world. For Teach to take over the world he has to remove whatever power is already in place and to do that is to fulfill the intended purpose of One Piece. Again, I am not saying that task is to depose Im. I think that could be part of it, but there's something a lot bigger going on in the world. I think fixing the world combines the dreams of all the Straw Hats, not just Luffy's desire to become Pirate King. And the title of Pirate King is meaningless. Worthless. That's NOT the end game. That's NOT the final goal. Whoever is deemed Roger's successor has to do the thing Roger chose NOT to do.
Again, worth pointing out that Roger knew the whole truth and decided that the task was beyond him. It's not about strength alone. All the pieces need to be in place. Shirahoshi is a vital part of that, but not the ONLY part. I do not think it's a matter of simply having the raw power of the ancient weapons. It's something more than that beyond our current understanding.
Exactly; I don't think it will be as simple as Blackbeard using an ancient weapon either. The Marine civil war, the Revolutionaries actions, and pretty much the whole world going to shit is why Blackbeard will be able to dethrone Imu.
Exactly; I don't think it will be as simple as Blackbeard using an ancient weapon either. The Marine civil war and the Revolutionaries actions and pretty much the whole world going to shit is why Blackbeard will be able to dethrone Imu.
I don't think that's possible. I do not think it's possible to remove whatever power holds sway in the world without One Piece. Roger didn't believe it was possible.
I'm not sure Roger believed that but even if he did, he can be wrong.
Just to clarify though; you don't believe it possible because it would render "one piece" meaningless, if someone were able to dethrone Imu without it even though that's not all their is to the treasure?
It's hard for me to not think of Rocks/Teach as a core piece of the lore of One Piece. And I mean the 900 hundred years lore including the void century and the recent history of the world.
Even if by themselves alone Rocks and Teach are merely individuals not as massive and inexorable as the WG, both of them still represent the same inhiritted will that is crucial to the political discussion of the series. They are the dark side of the freedom and anarchy that the D. clan embodies.
So when thinking about the void century, I have to imagine a figure like Rocks and Teach there in opposition to Joyboy. (Maybe that's who ordered the construction of Pluton and caused havoc in the world until the 20 kings stepped over and opposed the powerful ancient kingdom. This last sentence is just a random hypothesis, but regardless of it someone like Teach must have existed in the void century and played a major role in a way or another.)
So Luffy vs Teach is the same clash as Roger vs Rocks and Joyboy vs Badboy (One could even theorize that Im-sama is that guy, maybe tricking the 20 kings of the past to make war against Joyboy and becoming the leader in the shadow. He became the king of the world and still is, just like Rocks wanted to be. But I don't believe in this.) That's a very symbolic fight, so Blackbeard is worth of final boss.
Nonetheless, the WG still is a much bigger threat than Blackbeard, a much better anti-thesis to Luffy than Blackbeard, and a much more omnipresent organization in the narrative than Blackbeard. Most arcs in One Piece are indirectly about the World Government. The very first arc of OP against Morgan is a miniature of the conflict agains the WG, as it shows authority that is corrupt and dictatorial, imposing fear and injustice over everybody, including civilians. Every Shichibukai arc is also against the corruption of the WG. The island of Dressrosa and the rule of Doflamingo (an ex-Tenryuubito) in particular is basically an analogy to core of what the WG is, a bright facade hiding a much darker reality of oppression. Enies Lobby is an arc against the WG.
Almost everything is about the WG, in particular the lore that Luffy must fulfill that Roger and Joyboy and probably many others failed before him.
So while Blackbeard individually is more prominent in the story than any particular character from the WG, the WG itself is much more prominent than Blackbeard.
The WG being the final boss is the most predictable way to read the narrative. Everything culminating into this huge final war where Luffy brings all his allies and friend kingdoms to clash against this overwhelming enemy called WG. Im-sama will (probably) just be the physical avatar that allows such a fight in shonen format. Obviously, I expect to know more about him as a character too.
Thing is, along with all those powers, we believe Teach is going to be one of them, and as usual take advantage and rise victorious, THAT is the moment when the final battle of the entire series will take place.
We know there will be some geological changes here and there, how big? beats me, but the earthquake/black hole man is 100% taking part in those changes.
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So Luffy vs Teach is the same clash as Roger vs Rocks and Joyboy vs Badboy (One could even theorize that Im-sama is that guy, maybe tricking the 20 kings of the past to make war against Joyboy and becoming the leader in the shadow. He became the king of the world and still is, just like Rocks wanted to be. But I don't believe in this.) .
Thinking a tiny bit out of the box, what if Joy Boy himself was the freaking evil?
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I really really don't understand the absolute disregard for how BB has been build up just for people to apply their own limited narrative and pretend that WG is the one and only force that was ever build up.
But the images above speak far far louder than any run-on paragraphs. BB is being build as a bigger threat than WG.
Please bring something new to the discussion because the whole WG side is getting redundant and stupid as hell at this point.
I feel like if Oda stops farting around after Wano, and shows us why Blackbeard is a Emperor now, instead of just off-screening everything about him, people would kinda realize his true threat.
! https://v217.mangabeast.com/manga/One-Piece/0577-016.png
! https://v217.mangabeast.com/manga/One-Piece/0577-017.pngI really really don't understand the absolute disregard for how BB has been build up just for people to apply their own limited narrative and pretend that WG is the one and only force that was ever build up.
But the images above speak far far louder than any run-on paragraphs. BB is being build as a bigger threat than WG.
Please bring something new to the discussion because the whole WG side is getting redundant and stupid as hell at this point.
Funny, I feel the same about the ridiculously inane arguments about Blackbeard.
I've never said Blackbeard isn't being built up as a major enemy - Luffy's primary rival to claim One Piece. I also think Teach will be a big part of the final battle. Teach doesn't fill a bigger role in the larger story than the World Government. He just doesn't.
I honestly don't see how someone who's been reading this series for years could think the last villain was anyone else but Black Beard
And that Teach scene happened during a massive war protagonized by Whitebeard and… the WG.
Where the WG prevailed and marked their overwhelming superiority against any pirate crew alive.
Where Whitebeard made his last words about how someone in the future would come carrying Roger's will and bring a huge war against them.
That's the difference in scale between Blackbeard and the WG in the narrative. While one is trying to replace Whitebeard as the biggest pirate in the world (and becoming Luffy's most formidable rival), the other is the inexorable enemy of the story that spreads its presence throughout every corner of the series.
And that Teach scene happened during a massive war protagonized by Whitebeard and… the WG.
Where the WG prevailed and marked their overwhelming superiority against any pirate crew alive.
Where Whitebeard made his last words about how someone in the future would come carrying Roger's will and bring a huge war against them.
That's the difference in scale between Blackbeard and the WG in the narrative. While one is trying to replace Whitebeard as the biggest pirate in the world (and becoming Luffy's most formidable rival), the other is the inexorable enemy of the story that spread his presence throughout every corner of the series.
Exactly, well said. Roger created the Great Pirate Era for the very reason of inspiring a successor to take on this greater threat. Whitebeard, who also knew the truth, used his dying words for the same purpose - to stoke the flames. None of this has been about Teach.
You mean the war that BB started and also came out of it as the victor? Lol yea lets ignore that.
Maybe you guys should re-read the series.
If you think Teach holds more cards here and has a deeper connection to the bigger story, maybe you should re-read the series.
The war that WG came out victor, you mean?
I did.
Hence the whole a pirate being the final villain in a pirate series :)
Edit: Lol nigga's so deep in their theories that they can't recongize the narrative of the war being controlled by the WG.
Like you know that time where WG said to have captured Roger even though he turned himself in? But hey facts dont matter.
What? And the Marines didn't win? Is that fake news? A lie? lol
Whitebeard dead. Ace dead. The rest of the crew only survived because Shanks stopped the war.
No admiral defeated. Probably no vice-admiral dead.
Winners.
Winners of a war set into motion by Blackbeard.
This isn't a story about piracy just like Star Wars isn't a story about space. The Great Pirate era was created by Roger for a purpose. That purpose existed before Teach was a threat to anyone. One Piece was left on Laugh Tale 800 years ago for a purpose that existed long before Teach's great grandparents were even born. Luffy and Blackbeard are both people inspired to go after One Piece, to declare themselves Pirate King. What is not obvious to either right now, what was only known to the Roger Pirates, Whitebeard, anyone who knew the True History, is that becoming Pirate King means shouldering a huge burden that was left for the person who discovers the treasure. Who gets to be Pirate King? That's a smaller question than 'what does the Pirate King have to do once they discover One Piece'?
It's funny because this thread is largely a huge echo chamber that has been dominated by Blackbeard theories. People in this thread were CONVINCED that Shiryu would kill Mihawk just so it could fit their theory and then treated it like fact because people buy what they're selling.
And fwiw since somehow it has come up, I've read the series all the way through many times over the past 17 years.
Winners of a war set into motion by Blackbeard.
that pretty much it.
what was Imu doing in the meantime? prolly catching butteflies and stuff.
The world government won superficially. They killed Whitebeard, but his power lived on through Blackbeard, that unlike Whitebeard isn't just sitting 'in front of the throne' like Mango was talking about after Dressrosa. Not to mention, Blackbeard isn't old and sick like Whitebeard.
Also Blackbeard rise to the empty throne would be only accomplished after defeating the government and Luffy. The thing is, Blackbeard and Luffy do not need to fight to prove whom is the chosen D. Once Luffy enacts the change for the world war to occur. Blackbeard will be there, with his armada ready to come out on top of the struggle between Luffy and the government. If he is there as a third party, and he kills both Im and Luffy, whom is going to stop him.
A day? Week? Blackbeard can kill Law and make himself and his core crew immortal.
Marines will definitely reveal to the world they got destroyed by BB.
Yea, that makes a lot of sense for how WG has been shown throughout the series. This is why nobody takes thr WG theorist seriously
My point was, Blackbeard defeats Im and topples the World Government and 'makes things worse' according to the theory being pushed in favor of Teach as the final villain. How long does he have to make the world worse before Luffy intervenes? People keep insisting he'll 'fulfill Xebec's desire' and become King of the World. Okay, so how long does he reign? A day? A week? A year? 19 Years? I mean, for this to really have any impact at all, there would need to be a full time skip to show Teach ruling the world for an extended period of time. Otherwise, ya know, he'd just be a guy who ruled the world for a day, which is a joke compared to the 800 years the World Government held power. But hey, he's the bigger threat in the end right?
Winners of a war set into motion by Blackbeard.
Of course Teach is important, but the war was set into motion by the WG too. Who put a bounty on Ace. accepted his head and decided to put forth a public execution to stage a war against Whitebeard was the WG itself.
The war was not even Teach's intention. He only wanted to become a Shichibukai by capturing anyone with a bounty higher than 100 million. It happened to be Ace because Ace was pursuing his ass.
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Marines will definitely reveal to the world they got destroyed by BB.
Yea, that makes a lot of sense for how WG has been shown throughout the series. This is why nobody takes thr WG theorist seriously
The Marines got destroyed by Blackbeard…?
It's not me that needs to reread One Piece.