Really great post!
I'm also looking forward to the anime adapting the last page. They're doing a good job at the moment, hopefully they can keep it up.
Thank you!
As much as I like the anime's new look, the pacing is still a bit much for me to handle week by week. I tune in for the big stuff though, and that's definitely going to include this moment!
This chapter really pissed me off. Obviously oden realized he couldn’t kill orochi and Orochi said he would build him ships if he degraded himself for years.
This is the real tragedy of Oden. Unlike most flashback characters, he hasn't been undone by being too virtuous at the wrong time (Bell-mere refusing to disown her family, Hiruluk taking poison in his attempt to support Chopper's work, Tom not rejecting the ships he built, Rocinante giving up his life for Law's), no, Oden has actually been undone by his flaws. He felt too big for the space he was living in and was undeniably selfish about pursuing his dream. He didn't fail when he made his stand against Orochi and Kaido's invasion because he wasn't there to stop them at all. Even when Roger's crew came for the Poneglyph he chose to look away from the blighted landscape and horrible factories and keep putting his adventure and his dreams first. By the time he was ready to actually give Wano (the land he was meant to be responsibly for) his full attention, Orochi and Kaido had too great a stronghold and too much leverage for him to fight back properly. Oden was a big personality, one of the biggest we've seen so far. Massive amounts of virtue, but shortcomings to match. I wouldn't call him a bad person, especially given that he couldn't have known the true extent of what Orochi was doing, but he undeniably let Wano down when he chose his priorities, and now it's come back to bite him.
I understand your point here, but I would say that Oden still matches the box of being "too virtuous at the wrong time". Ultimately, the OP flashbacks show people that chose death instead of letting go of a higher virtue… and that also applies to Oden. First he abandoned his own pride and freedom to make a deal with Orochi that basically made him a "lapdog", and now that the deal is over he'll choose war and death instead of saving his life.
You can say that Oden was not virtuous when he decided to go to Laugh Tale, but that scene is also proof that he would choose the safety of the country over his own dreams if he knew the circunstances better. In fact, it was Toki who interrupted the scabbards from trying to stop Oden to leave again because she kmew that Oden would stay. Of course, this is all a little bit confusing, because it is Oden's fault to overlook things, but at the same time it's also true that he didn't know that things were so bad. It was his sin yes, but not to that degree.
Btw, my point answers your complaint that we did not see signs of the Beast Pirates in Wano before. That's because Oden didn't see them too. He didn't know that much. (Also because he didn't look around enough). If Oden knew that a powerful pirate was ruling over Wano, he would not have gone to Laugh Tale with Roger. He would have stayed to protect Wano.
From chapter 819:
https://i.imgur.com/taOThCc.jpg?1This was weird and fucked up, I like it. I love that panel on the last page where they cross the bridge. Expectations for the rest of this flashback are high.
I'm a little bit disappointed though that the theft of Ryuma's corpse and shusui was completely skipped. I really want to learn more about Ryuma.
Oars' corpse was also likely stolen from Ringo. He froze to death in the "land of ice" after all.
Not a chapter to my liking. I think this chapter should have been Oden return chapter. The last 2 exist in opposition of each other.
Kaido looks good flotating on top of Wano. That's a panel I would like on a double page. He continues to be an add-on to the real villain Orochi.
What the hell are we doing in that cover story. With some luck they'll meet Hakuba and will cut that damn chase.
I have no idea why Orochi would share the secrets of how he fooled the people of Wano. Oden can just run around talking about the sorcery Orochi has been using.
I could see the death of Oden being what turns Shinobu and she tell them why he has been a fool all these years.
5 years of inactivity. Oden choose now of all time to be cautious I do not feel an ounce of sympathy or felt hype seeing that last spread I just am annoyed and am ready to move to the next part.
I understand your point here, but I would say that Oden still matches the box of being "too virtuous at the wrong time". Ultimately, the OP flashbacks show people that chose death instead of letting go of a higher virtue… and that also applies to Oden. First he abandoned his own pride and freedom to make a deal with Orochi that basically made him a "lapdog", and now that the deal is over he'll choose war and death instead of saving his life.
You can say that Oden was not virtuous when he decided to go to Laugh Tale, but that scene is also proof that he would choose the safety of the country over his own dreams if he knew the circunstances better. In fact, it was Toki who interrupted the scabbards from trying to stop Oden to leave again because she kmew that Oden would stay. Of course, this is all a little bit confusing, because it is Oden's fault to overlook things, but at the same time it's also true that he didn't know that things were so bad. It was his sin yes, but not to that degree.
Btw, my point answers your complaint that we did not see signs of the Beast Pirates in Wano before. That's because Oden didn't see them too. He didn't know that much. (Also because he didn't look around enough). If Oden knew that a powerful pirate was ruling over Wano, he would not have gone to Laugh Tale with Roger. He would have stayed to protect Wano.
To clarify, I think Oden's fate was sealed the moment he turned his back on Wano after returning for the Poneglyph. That was a purely selfish (but understandable) act where he put his big dreams ahead of his home. He's acted plenty virtuous outside of that moment, and he's doing the right thing as best he can in the wake of it - throwing his pride away to protect the people he cares about and fighting to the death when that won't work anymore - but it all stems from that moment. If he'd acted then Orochi and Kaido might not have been deeply ingrained enough to threaten him the same way they are now and things might have gone different. And to be absolutely clear, this definitely isn't a bad thing nor do I think it makes Oden a bad person. Going with Roger will definitely turn out to be the right choice for the world in the long run even if it hurt Wano in the short term. Oden's a well-written, layered character with a lot of great victories and one fatal mistake in his history.
Absolutely fair to point out Toki's influence on his decision though. It wasn't all him, but his log did make it clear that he knew the country was in trouble and left anyway.
And on the matter of what Oden saw, his POV doesn't matter that much to the flashback. We've already been shown plenty of things he didn't see, like Orochi's meeting with Higurashi and Roger seeing him in the paper for the first time. Just an idea I thought might have helped build up the drama and clarify things.
Wow, Moira at age 27.
No, that clearly contradict his words to Roger. He had more reasons to stay at Wano than ever.
Maybe the people of wano are the reasons why he must open the borders, not the wano island per se, so that would still achieve his goal.
Wow, Moira at age 27.
[qimg]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/565572928599621632/670784484974526495/unknown.png[/qimg]
I love him for how much he smacked Wano's pride. Stole Ryuuma and his revered sword, turned him into a zombie, and stuck the shadow of a comic relief skeleton who makes bone jokes on him. Even worse, he was probably their best hope of being freed from Kaido. If Moria goes back there they'll probably ask Kaido to just finish the job after seeing what a hot mess he became.
Wait where's beka
I still cant understand any likely reason given for the deal that Oden made with Kaido/Orochi.
If it would have only been a question of who would be Shogun or Oden humiliating himself, or if this would have been for a short period of time, then maybe.
But for Oden to adhere to that deal that almost surely would be broken by the villains FOR FIVE YEARS while people all around him were dieing and while Wano more and more went to ruin and the very last and greatest hope of its people was crushed by his behaviour?
And Oden made never any other move against Orochi, tried never to free any hypothetical hostage, or tried to get outside help -even without any boats available.
Its very hard to believe.
I read the scans, and honestly.. I regret it. All current scans are very low quality.
https://mangadex.org/chapter/790468/1 this one is good. Lol it feels weird to read the scan after reading the official 
but I feel better now that Ih ave read both versions .
The only thing i can think of that would make sense would be joyboy connection and that Oden was betting on something of that sort so someone from outside managing it but still no idea why he didnt tell any of this to his 9 retainers wife etc… Makes zero sense. And the way people are suffering and wano is about pride and samurai spirit, one would also think the entire country would literally back him if need be
Wow, Moira at age 27.
[qimg]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/565572928599621632/670784484974526495/unknown.png[/qimg]
You come at the king, you best not miss.
- Feels weird to see him without the scar that basically splits him in two
- Wonder who on the Beast Pirates gives it to him, since Kaido loves him a club and that doesn’t seem like a scar one would get from a club…
That's defeatist talk. If you truly wanted it you could smash someone so hard that they split right down the middle.
By the way, doesn't this chapter confirm that haki doesn't work on the barrier fruit?
The barrier fruit is indeed overpowered. It needs to be nerfed
Wonder if Kizaru would just float through that barrier.
It'd be pretty akward for the bari bari dude.
Kurozumi elders' names are revealed in this chapter.
One is Semimaru (Barrier DF) and the other is Higurashi (Clone DF).
Here is a theory about Oda's intention about what their names mean.
Semimaru’s name is based on a blind poet and Biwa-playing priest who lived in Japan more than 1000 years ago.
He was rumored to have a blood relationship with Japanese emperor.
Semimaru in OP appears to be a blind man considering his eyes are always closed so far.
The names of Semimaru and Higurashi are also based on certain types of cicada (insect).
“Semi” as in Semimaru means cicada in Japanese and “Higurashi” is a type of cicadas.
Cicada is an insect which spends most of their lives in the underground and can live only for a short moment after emerging from ground.
It sounds similar to the life of Semimaru and Higurashi, both of whom had been keeping a low profile after they lost the battle for Shogun long ago.
Now that Orochi has become Shogun, it can be said that Kurozumi elders finally emerge from shady “ground” and have fulfilled their dreams.
Sadly, they don’t have much time left until they die just like cicadas.
note: Like Semimaru, Oda himself bought Biwa (Japanese lute) according to author comment in Jump issue 22/23 in 2019. [hide]
[/hide]
@Kaizoku_Ou:
I still need fan translations for the honorifics, like what did that old man with the Bari Bari no mi referred to Oden as .
That old man refers to Oden without any honorifics in the raw chapter :)
During the final march, Denjiro is the only one smiling.
That's a wealth of information, thanks for the insight Sandman !
But for Oden to adhere to that deal that almost surely would be broken by the villains FOR FIVE YEARS while people all around him were dieing and while Wano more and more went to ruin and the very last and greatest hope of its people was crushed by his behaviour?
And Oden made never any other move against Orochi, tried never to free any hypothetical hostage, or tried to get outside help -even without any boats available.
Same here. Whatever explanation we're given had better be reaaaaaal convincing, because right now the best I can find to say about this is that Oden chose to let Wano as a whole suffer at Orochi's hands in exchange for sparing Kuri. If anything it makes him a practical lord, but not entirely underserving of the resent many Wanoites harbour.
The barrier fruit is indeed overpowered. It needs to be nerfed
Nah, I think it's good as is
It has some really powerful uses in specific situations but is equally as vulnerable in others
Between the surface area limit and the switch between offense and defense limitation I think it has sufficient weak spots
The less "his haki was strong enough to do x" chat the happier I'll be with the story
The barrier fruit is indeed overpowered. It needs to be nerfed
Many fruits seem overpowered, but if you just so happen to have a fruit that counters it…
I would say simplest counter would be Blueno's Door Fruit power. Also, why is his name still Blueno, no part of him is the color Blue, just make it Bruno!
Law's Room might counter the barrier if it is within the Room.
Or just sneak attack them and go for the fingers. Doflamingo could attach his strings to their fingers and stop them from crossing them.
Avatar Artist: Aapo Niemi
I'm sorry, but this was really bad.
It almost feels like Oda completely forgot what was supposed to be the point of the Flashback, got lost in the Roger-wanking for a full month, then realized it and rushed back on tracks, resulting in the mess that is this chapter.
First: Oden had is family and friends attacked and hurt, his rule usurped and his country invaded buy foreign pirates who are exploiting its people and polluting its environment. Christ, he even realized the usurper has gone full Dio Brando and poisoned his father to death. But hey, they have the invincible barrier fruit, what can you you do about it? Of course wait 5 years just to fill in for what looks suspiciously like a minor plot-hole…
untill a charachter previously unknow both to us and Oden is introduced in a mini-panel where we are told that's she's a nice person, and promptly killed the next page. Now THAT is what calls for the badass walk-to-arlong-park-esque split page of the scabbards.
Second: Toki, the time traveler lady who comes from the mysterious past, the very same past our interim hero has supposedly just discovered something HUGE about, still has the charisma, the depth and the development of a shallow puddle. In a flashback that was supposed to be mostly focused on her, she gets less panel time than Buggy the fucking Clown.
Nami-face #476 (but with makeup and black hair! so that you may confuse it with more recent robin-faces), damsel in perpetual distress, there you go, A+ female charachterization.
Third: nobody at all seems even remotely interested in the Whys and Hows of Kaido's regency. Well, I am.
It's really baffling how 5 whole years with a lot of potential that could be used to explore crucial charachters like Toki or Momonosuke, give the slightest stake and emotional involvement for the readers are instead completely wasted in a few repeted panels of Oden being a buffoon and paesants scorning him. Until SUDDENLY, THE PLOT HAS TO BE PUSHED FORWARD.
It's just a pity.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing
Wonder if Kizaru would just float through that barrier.
It'd be pretty akward for the bari bari dude.
They can still see and hear through the barrier, so in theory both Kizaru and Apoo abilities should work fine. Bartolomeo + Kizaru/Apoo would be an amazing pair-up, btw, having them shooting their abilities from inside the barrier where they couldn't be reached.
I suppose the barrier also can't protect its contents from Law's room, given how broken the Ope Ope Fruit is.
Many fruits seem overpowered, but if you just so happen to have a fruit that counters it…
I would say simplest counter would be Blueno's Door Fruit power. Also, why is his name still Blueno, no part of him is the color Blue, just make it Bruno!
Law's Room might counter the barrier if it is within the Room.
Or just sneak attack them and go for the fingers. Doflamingo could attach his strings to their fingers and stop them from crossing them.
Bluno is designed and named after the villain in the Popeye cartoon, Bluto. Therefore, his name is perfectly fitting as it is.
I'm sorry, but this was really bad.
It almost feels like Oda completely forgot what was supposed to be the point of the Flashback, got lost in the Roger-wanking for a full month, then realized it and rushed back on tracks, resulting in the mess that is this chapter.First: Oden had is family and friends attacked and hurt, his rule usurped and his country invaded buy foreign pirates who are exploiting its people and polluting its environment. Christ, he even realized the usurper has gone full Dio Brando and poisoned his father to death. But hey, they have the invincible barrier fruit, what can you you do about it? Of course wait 5 years just to fill in for what looks suspiciously like a minor plot-hole…
untill a charachter previously unknow both to us and Oden is introduced in a mini-panel where we are told that's she's a nice person, and promptly killed the next page. Now THAT is what calls for the badass walk-to-arlong-park-esque split page of the scabbards.Second: Toki, the time traveler lady who comes from the mysterious past, the very same past our interim hero has supposedly just discovered something HUGE about, still has the charisma, the depth and the development of a shallow puddle. In a flashback that was supposed to be mostly focused on her, she gets less panel time than Buggy the fucking Clown.
Nami-face #476 (but with makeup and black hair! so that you may confuse it with more recent robin-faces), damsel in perpetual distress, there you go, A+ female charachterization.Third: nobody at all seems even remotely interested in the Whys and Hows of Kaido's regency. Well, I am.
It's really baffling how 5 whole years with a lot of potential that could be used to explore crucial charachters like Toki or Momonosuke, give the slightest stake and emotional involvement for the readers are instead completely wasted in a few repeted panels of Oden being a buffoon and paesants scorning him. Until SUDDENLY, THE PLOT HAS TO BE PUSHED FORWARD.
It's just a pity.
Its strange no body is talking about this, but to me it was obvious that oden retreated when kaido came and told him something, not because of orochi
Nice chapter to me!!!
So Kaido's words when he makes the decision to attack are not: "the time has come to strike down Orochi", but "… "to strike down Kaido"...
That and all of the context make it look like what Orochi said to Oden that make him hold for 5 years, was something related to Kaido.
I feel much more now that if Luffy&co doesn't defeat Kaido in this arc, this won't make sense at all.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
All the flashback is about the battle and conspiracy between the Kosuki clan and the Kurosumi clan... but at the end the enemy is Kaido...
Yeah….this flashback, besides the Roger and Whiteboard chapters, have done nothing for me.
At this point, I just want the flashback to end. If this was the last chapter of it, then good.
Wow, people are really hating this hard on this chapter and the Roger flashbacks?
It's clear that Oden didn't want to force a war, considering Kaido's crew could probably sack the whole island and kill as many as people as they wanted, in order to try and keep peace as best as he could. Unfortuntely, his hand has been played, and now they have no choice. Look, if it were up to him, he was going to kill Orochi - first thing - but with Kaido around, he knew that dying there and loosing Wano completely (ODen being basically the only threat that can combat Orochi and Kaido, at this point) was not the best decision. He didn't try something sooner, because these are the lives of the people of Wano here, and if it seems that all Orochi wants is to be in charge - then fine, we'll live in shame, but at least people live.
I'm curious to see Young Kaido in action, personally. I also like to think that Moriah lost a lot of the strength he might have had, and desired instead to copy Kaido's greatest strength: the inability to die - in addition to the trauma of loosing the lives of all of his crewmates.
While hostage taking could probably be enough to make Oden fold, I doubt it would be enough for him to play the fool, or would need to be held back for a later reveal. The bargaing was something else, and that is what caused the anger, plus Hyozu's wife dying to hammer the fact that there are no deepts where Orochi won't sink.
At this point in time the factories aren't a blight, the workers are mostly criminals and dissidents, there isn't a town with people cursed to smile forever, the land still is able to sustain the people, people still don't just dissapear but get "accidentally" hit by stray arrows or "misteriously" sick, that lady is the first evidence of a non combatant casualty, these kind of crimes change the in universe narrative a lot, by pushing the "these people died because Orochi" into "Orochi ordered these people killed" are ideas that flow in a way to sow dispair in the populace.
Country-cancers like Orochi take a while to become trully devastating.
We are escalating, we went from Wapol's few years of opulence, to Doffy's decade of decadence, now Orochi's insane twenties, and we are bound to the 800 years of the WG.
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While hostage taking could probably be enough to make Oden fold, I doubt it would be enough for him to play the fool, or would need to be held back for a later reveal. The bargaing was something else, and that is what caused the anger, plus Hyozu's wife dying to hammer the fact that there are no deepts where Orochi won't sink.
At this point in time the factories aren't a blight, the workers are mostly criminals and dissidents, there isn't a town with people cursed to smile forever, the land still is able to sustain the people, people still don't just dissapear but get "accidentally" hit by stray arrows or "misteriously" sick, that lady is the first evidence of a non combatant casualty, these kind of crimes change the in universe narrative a lot, by pushing the "these people died because Orochi" into "Orochi ordered these people killed" are ideas that flow in a way to sow dispair in the populace.
Country-cancers like Orochi take a while to become trully devastating.
We are escalating, we went from Wapol's few years of opulence, to Doffy's decade of decadence, now Orochi's insane twenties, and we are bound to the 800 years of the WG.
Didn't he just execute a whole family for not being good enough slaves?
I do hope Oda doesn't let the children watch. I'm looking forward to that boiling scene for quite some time now, but Hyori/Momo witnessing Oden's death would totally ruin it.
I do hope Oda doesn't let the children watch. I'm looking forward to that boiling scene for quite some time now, but Hyori/Momo witnessing Oden's death would totally ruin it.
How so, if I may ask?
@Johnny:
How so, if I may ask?
I believe it will be quite difficult for me to enjoy him getting boiled while baby Hyori/Momo are watching. Especially Hyori.
I just want to say that when I keep seeing the name of this thread shortened to Fool of a, my mind adjusts to "Fool of a Took!"
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Didn't he just execute a whole family for not being good enough slaves?
Fair enough. Forgot about that. It was a tell, without a show.
To be pedantic, going by the translation, it was a worker (not a slave, but probably a "worker") and his family probably weren't working there. But yeah, bystanders were killed before this woman, without any semblance of order.
I'll chalk it up to the capital takes longer to get as bad then.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I believe it will be quite difficult for me to enjoy him getting boiled while baby Hyori/Momo are watching. Especially Hyori.
Considering that when we first meet Momo, he was particulary traumatized by food, I wouldn't put my hopes up. Granted it could easily be the fact that his people are starving, and so he feels undeserving of eating. But he was about to throw away boiled food.
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Call me crazy, but: what if Orochi is secretly saving Wano?
It might be that the weak Orochi sought the alliance of Kaidou and then the latter manifested his intention of enslaving the whole population… but Orochi manages to keep him at bay. Until, slowly, he doesn't, Kaidou keeps asking for more and Orochi has to capitulate. Not sure if that is Orochi's actual game - he might be scum after all, but what if he told Oden that he is keeping the unstoppable, incredibly strong Kaidou that could destroy Wano if he wished to, at bay? What if he told Oden that they have to work together, and to keep quiet?
It would explain why after Orochi says "what??" to Oden's request Oden says that it's time to take down Kaidou. Maybe Kaidou is the big bad after all, and does not share this title with Orochi - a disgusting person that, however, is also trying to protect his country.
Oda still oes me for not showing BM eat those kids. I deserve to see Oden die
Call me crazy, but: what if Orochi is secretly saving Wano?
It might be that the weak Orochi sought the alliance of Kaidou and then the latter manifested his intention of enslaving the whole population… but Orochi manages to keep him at bay. Until, slowly, he doesn't, Kaidou keeps asking for more and Orochi has to capitulate. Not sure if that is Orochi's actual game - he might be scum after all, but what if he told Oden that he is keeping the unstoppable, incredibly strong Kaidou that could destroy Wano if he wished to, at bay? What if he told Oden that they have to work together, and to keep quiet?
It would explain why after Orochi says "what??" to Oden's request Oden says that it's time to take down Kaidou. Maybe Kaidou is the big bad after all, and does not share this title with Orochi - a disgusting person that, however, is also trying to protect his country.
He's just scum. No two ways.
Call me crazy, but: what if Orochi is secretly saving Wano?
It might be that the weak Orochi sought the alliance of Kaidou and then the latter manifested his intention of enslaving the whole population… but Orochi manages to keep him at bay. Until, slowly, he doesn't, Kaidou keeps asking for more and Orochi has to capitulate. Not sure if that is Orochi's actual game - he might be scum after all, but what if he told Oden that he is keeping the unstoppable, incredibly strong Kaidou that could destroy Wano if he wished to, at bay? What if he told Oden that they have to work together, and to keep quiet?
It would explain why after Orochi says "what??" to Oden's request Oden says that it's time to take down Kaidou. Maybe Kaidou is the big bad after all, and does not share this title with Orochi - a disgusting person that, however, is also trying to protect his country.
Uh…..no. Literally, everywhere that isn't the Flower Capital is a wasteland. Orochi is evil with a capital "E".
@Johnny:
Uh…..no. Literally, everywhere that isn't the Flower Capital is a wasteland. Orochi is evil with a capital "E".
But what if that is Kaidou's work and Orochi is just the coward it has always been shown he is?
But what if that is Kaidou's work and Orochi is just the coward it has always been shown he is?
He's having feasts when a mother was about to kill her baby to spare it from starving to death.
Even if we entertain the idea that Kaidou is the one responsible for the environmental devastation and Orochi is just an opportunistic coward who's too scared to go against Kaidou himself…
That does not endear Orochi to me. None of his shown actions are in the interest of saving Wano. He's a willing puppet benefitting off the protection of a monster. That's the kind of person I think Oda would categorise as evil.
I want to see Kaidou defeated before Orochi. I want to see that smug grin of his morph into terror as he realises his muscle is gone. I want 7 of his heads chopped off by the Akazaya, leaving the last head to be stabbed by Momo.
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Somebody roped Kaido in. Highly doubt he knew where Wano was on his own and why didn't he go after Rayleigh? It's obvious because Oden knows the text. That's the difference between Oden and the other Roger Pirates. Whoever told him this info, got him to Wano
@Bond:
Even if we entertain the idea that Kaidou is the one responsible for the environmental devastation and Orochi is just an opportunistic coward who's too scared to go against Kaidou himself…
That does not endear Orochi to me. None of his shown actions are in the interest of saving Wano. He's a willing puppet benefitting off the protection of a monster. That's the kind of person I think Oda would categorise as evil.I want to see Kaidou defeated before Orochi. I want to see that smug grin of his morph into terror as he realises his muscle is gone. I want 7 of his heads chopped off by the Akazaya, leaving the last head to be stabbed by Momo.
I wish, but Oda has a weird sense of justice and karma. Even though Orochi has more then earned being executed at the end of the arc, I'm sure he'll just be locked up or something.
But what if that is Kaidou's work and Orochi is just the coward it has always been shown he is?
He was about to kill that kid Hiyori saved for the flimsiest of reason.
