I don't think a main character is going to kill a good guy. Not in this manga anyway.
Chapter 957: ULTIMATE
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Maybe because there isn't a single believable scenario where Mihawk would fight Zoro now?
People already listed all the reasons why Mihawk vs. Zoro is A LOT less likely at this point, while the other side always reverts to "but, but it was promised 12 years ago ;__;".
This is simply not convincing. If you want to persuade people then at least come up with a theory how that fight would be realised (in a somewhat organic manner, if this isn't too much to ask).You need, at least:
! 1. A trigger (when would it happen?)
2. Motivation (why would it happen?)
3. A location (which place would be worthy for that final clash?)
! Now, back in 2007 this was the general headcanon:
! 1. The Straw Hat pirates challenge the world government directly, EOS.
2. Mihawk is a Shichibukai, that's all the motivation he needs to fight the Straw Hats and thus Zoro. Remember, this is 2007. He's a loner, he just cares about fighting, he kills 4900 men out of boredom.
3. Marineford or the Holy land, an epic battlefield fitting for that final confrontation. The top commander and swordsman of the Yonkou Monkey D. Luffy, vs. the strongest swordsman in the world, Mihawk.Not judging how cool or satisfying this would be, just that the above was a believable scenario. A scenario that is now officially dead, as Mihawk is not a Shichibukai anymore and not affiliated with the WG in any other way.
So, with the most probable scenario being dead, what else do people have in store to make that final fight happen? I actually asked this exact question a few years ago and literally got nothing. And that was even before Oda created more facts with the recent chapter! Some were so desperate (and uncreative…) to simply note that Mihawk would seek out the Straw Hats on his own because he wants to fight Zoro.
Location? The Sunny. Why? Don't know, it was promised so it will happen!Now, if I would try my hand at this, as of chapter 957 (my only goal is Mihawk vs. Zoro, no matter the cost):
1. Blackbeard is beaten by the Straw Hats at
RaftelLaugh Tale. They find out about the lost history and decide to bring down the WG.
2. Shanks has an interest to keep the status quo, maybe because he was semi-evil or lawful evil all along. Surprise! He decides to stop the Straw Hats before they try something funny, like he does all the time anyway (vs. Whitebeard, vs. Kaido, vs. Gorosei). Oh yeah, and Mihawk is now an allied captain / top commander because he had nowhere else to..hidego.
This would make Shanks the last Yonkou to be fought, just like Luffy intended anyway.
3. Trying really hard here. I don't know. Because everything is already so very, very sophisticated… let's say... GOD VALLEY! Yes!So in order to have that Mihawk vs. Zoro duel we turned the Red Hair pirates into antagonists, Usopp's father included, and turned Mihawk into Shank's
little bitchunderling, who not only fights Zoro because of swordsman-honor, but because he also agrees to Shank's agenda at least to some degree.This is really awful, awful, awful writing right here. But maybe someone can come up with a different scenario? I would love to hear it. I would love to be convinced, really.
And @Blissed, your post is just the anchor, I know you probably just wondered why people take it for granted that Mihawk vs. Zoro is dead. But it's also not comparable to insignificant pet theories like "which fruit will be consumed by Shiryu".
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm only saying I find perpetual amusement in those that have apparently long since decided it's absolutely, 100% not happening anymore. I never been a fan of when people do stuff like that, as they then often go on to proceed to talk down to anyone that disagrees with what is ultimately their headcanon.
As for saying the Diamond DF theory isn't comparable, well given the way people fervently insisted upon it back then, one would be forgiven for thinking otherwise. I only keep bringing it up because it's a relatively recent example of people being so completely sure of something, only for it to blow up in their faces. It was a nice reminder that they aren't as good as predicting what Oda will do as they think are, that also happened to tie into the whole Zoro/Mihawk/Shiyru discussion.
And before you say "Oda is unpredictable" isn't a good argument, again, not arguing here, I'm only saying it's important to take a step back every once in awhile if you're getting a little too pressed over a theory/prediction.
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I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm only saying I find perpetual amusement in those that have apparently long since decided it's absolutely, 100% not happening anymore.
Sure, but how do you feel about people saying "anything can happen, but at this point the Mihawk vs Zoro final battle looks way less likely than it was until Sabaody"?
NOT EVEN CLOSE, SIR!
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Sure, but how do you feel about people saying "anything can happen, but at this point the Mihawk vs Zoro final battle looks way less likely than it was until Sabaody"?
Nothing wrong with that, it's not the same as what I'm referring to.
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Zoro and Mihawk both have personallities to set aside their 'friendship' and have an actual battle to the death. I really think this will be one of the final battles of the series and there will be no holding back or friendship involved. They will both try 100% to kill the other and have the battle they both allways dreamt of. And Mihawk will die knowing his title is in good hands.
This feels like what all Zoro fans have envisioned. But mr i won't duel someone if i have an unfair advantage-hawk seems way too softhearted to kill his student. Any way i flip it he lost the grounds for a real battle as soon as Zoro kneeled at his feet and he took him in.
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Mihawk doesn't need to be an antagonist force to fight Zoro. Their first fight wasn't predicated on any moral dichotomy. Mihawk is the strongest and Zoro wants to surpass him. That's all there is to it really. Zoro could fight Mihawk in an epilogue, finally realizing his dream. The Straw Hats dreams won't all be fulfilled simultaneously at Raftel. Luffy, Robin, and Franky's dreams are directly connected to that particular goal, but the rest will presumably need to be fulfilled at some other point, either before, or afterward. Like, finding the All Blue, drawing a map of the world (maybe this involves mapping 'erased' or 'disappeared' locations like God Valley. Nami traveling the Grand Line / New World is one thing, but I imagine there may also be a need to add locations which have mysteriously vanished, moved, or 'erased from the archives' by the World Gov), becoming a brave warrior of the sea, etc. These are all dreams which have no direct connection to Raftel. There's no reason to think Zoro's goal of becoming the World's Greatest Swordsman needs to be fulfilled concurrently with Luffy becoming Pirate King anymore than there is a need for Usopp to be declared a brave warrior, Chopper to discover a panacea, or Sanji to find All Blue on Raftel. I don't imagine there needs to be any animosity between Zoro and Mihawk. Mihawk sees potential in Zoro and trained him. Mihawk has unequivocally been declared "the World's Strongest Swordsman." Zoro's dream is to surpass him and take that title. I don't think Shiryu defeating Mihawk, then being defeated by Zoro really has the same resonance. It also doesn't really seem as fitting as the no frills, no devil fruit, swordsman vs swordsman fight that would allow Zoro to take the mantle from the reigning champ. It's also entirely possible that Zoro fights Mihawk, becoming the world's greatest swordsman and still has other fights afterward. There will always be new contenders. You're only the strongest until you aren't and someone else defeats you. Having defeated the 'world's strongest', doesn't mean there isn't any risk or tension in future conflicts. Personally, I don't think this will be the case - I think Zoro vs Mihawk will be the last battle he fights in the series proper, at some point likely post-Raftel. I have never imagined Mihawk siding with the World Government - he doesn't seem so ignoble as to serve the side of the Celestial Dragons - and thus always imagined it to be a battle between two powerful swordsman, the champion and contender, master and apprentice, completely devoid of enmity.
I feel like the idea that Shiryu must beat Mihawk to then be defeated by Zoro comes from an attempt to impose an unflinching insistence that Blackbeard must be the final villain - and thus his crew must also be the strongest opponents for the rest of the Straw Hats. That just doesn't seem to be the case in the story, however. Also, the World Government are definitely not just enemies of the Revolutionaries - they rule the entire world. The central conflict of the entire series is not about who finds One Piece, but what One Piece is and what the person who discovers it must then do to fulfill Roger's will. Blackbeard and Luffy, along with the rest of the Worst Generation are those vying for the right to inherit Roger's will, One Piece. Whitebeard said as much in his dying breaths. Teach will NOT be the one to inherit that will. He isn't the one Roger is waiting for, but One Piece WILL be discovered, and when it is, the world will be turned upside down, triggering the greatest war the world has seen. This all ties back to the World Government, Im, the Celestial Dragons, and the void century. Blackbeard is just a pirate, like Luffy, searching for One Piece. He's another in a line of anti-Luffy type characters after Lucci and Doflamingo. That said, both are D.'s and both have some part in this larger conflict which has lasted far longer than either of their brief lifespans. Roger's will was inherited from generations past and will be passed on to Luffy. The actions of the World Gov, the machine which acts at the behest of the Celestial Dragons, Five Elders, and Im, have impacted the world for centuries and those who have stood in opposition to this transgression of justice extend back through history across multiple generations. The Revolutionary army is comprised of like 10 - 15 named characters (Dragon, Iva, Kuma, Sabo, Inazuma, Hack, Koala, Morley, Betty, Karasu, and Lindbergh)… they aren't enough to change the world and aren't the only ones whose lives are adversely impacted by a potentially existential threat posed by the Gov. We have recently learned that Im stands atop this organization, presumably as the 'World King', sitting on the Empty Throne. I believe the argument I've seen is that the Blackbeard Pirates could discover One Piece, making Blackbeard the Pirate King and the World King, patterned after Rocks. But the thing is, Roger and Garp stopped Rocks 14 years before Roger's execution. Rocks wanted to be the King of the World, his ambition was stopped, but the greatest existential threat Roger never conquered still remains – the World Government and, more specifically, the Celestial Dragons and their leaders.
EDIT: To clarify, Luffy's quest is to find One Piece; He's competing with Blackbeard to reach that goal first. No silver medals will be awarded. The core conflict in the series arises from the fact that there are people who do not want that treasure to be found - hence, it isn't just important that One Piece is found, but that One Piece is found by Luffy, someone who inherits Roger's will and carries on his unfinished work. Blackbeard discovering the treasure, taking the mantle of Pirate King, then conquering the World Gov would make Luffy's quest to reach Raftel first unsuccessful (finding One Piece vs. beating up the guy who found One Piece), and just wouldn't make sense for the nature of the conflict. Whatever is going on with the World Gov has been happening for centuries. Blackbeard is just a pirate, not at all involved in the actions of the Celestial Dragons. None of the scenarios where he stands as the final villain really work very well in my opinion. If he is, like Rocks, someone who wants to take the title of World King, Luffy stops him, protecting the Celestial Dragons, as did Garp and Roger - leaving the problem of the Celestial Dragons and Im, a greater threat that even Roger couldn't conquer. If he find One Piece first and takes power himself, it just doesn't make any thematic sense. A bunch of bad guys rule the world for 800 years, but before the main hero can oppose them, another bad guy beats them first, so the main hero goes and beats up the bad guy who beat up the other bad guys - ultimately making that bad guy sort of a chump. The other bad guys ruled for 800 years. This new guy couldn't hang on for more than a week. It's more or less the same as Shiryu defeating Mihawk such that he can be defeated by Zoro. It doesn't have the same resonance as Zoro fighting Mihawk directly. Another guy who wants to be pirate king isn't as much of an opposite to Luffy as is a 'World King'. Luffy wants to find One Piece because the Pirate King is the person in the world with the most freedom. The World King is the exact thematic opposite - one who suppresses the freedom of all placed under his rule. "Destiny, dreams, fate. As long as people seek freedom in this life, these things shall not vanish from the Earth." - Gol D. Roger, Pirate King (quoted by Dragon in his first appearance; chapter 100, the Legend Begins, in which Luffy's voyage through the Grand Line begins). This is more than a side-story for the Revolutionaries - it's the main story of the entire series. To put it succinctly, what Luffy wants is to become Pirate King. Freedom is the motivating reason he wants to be Pirate King. Blackbeard stands in the way of what Luffy wants. The World Government & Celestial Dragons stand in opposition to the motivating reason why he wants to achieve that goal.
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Actually only the trigger is a problem here. Location is irrelevant, motivation for both is known: it's to settle who is the strongest. Mihawk needs to be at a certain time at a certain place - that's all. I know, this is not a specific scenario but just a premise to make it work. I just don't think it has to be sophisticated in any way. Like i said, both don't really need a further motivation - they just need the right setting (not fighting together against some greater foe). In my vague opinion it will happen before they find One Piece. As for awful writing - come on, it's still Oda, who for example used the lost-memory-trope to justify Sabos absence at Marineford. If something needs to happen plot wise, he will find a way to let it happen. It's not that i would mind if there wouldn't be a serious fight between Zoro and Mihawk… it's just something most One Piece fans wouldn't understand or honor.
You say the location is irrelevant, yet you agree that Mihawk needs to be at a certain time at a certain place. So the location does matter, the road to that place matters. It has to fit the overall story, because the story is not only about the great adventures of Zoro the Pirate Hunter. It has to be weaved in organically, unless people have absolute zero standards and just want that headcanon fight delivered at any cost (which might very well be the case).
All I'm asking for is a concrete scenario. And if you're having such a hard time to come up with anything, then maybe, just maybe there is simply no substance to work with anymore. And I'm really open for anything, no matter how crazy the approach. Just look at Greg's posts in the last chapter thread, that's what I'm talking about. Absolute outlandish claim that Mihawk might not even be the strongest swordsman at the moment, but he also delivered his reasons AND offered several routes it could lead to.
I mean I'm not asking for Greg-level predictions here, just… something you can picture.I'm only saying it's important to take a step back every once in awhile if you're getting a little too pressed over a theory/prediction.
I'm taking massive steps back, I'm almost falling over the edge here. But if the only argument for Mihawk vs. Zoro is "it was promised 12 years ago", then I consider the theory dead unless someone bothers to paint that picture.
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What if after reaching Raftel the strawhats realize the world government is a neccessary evil and the final battle will be the Revolutionary vs the Strawhats :ninja:
You know,its not an impossible scenario in my opinion!
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You say the location is irrelevant, yet you agree that Mihawk needs to be at a certain time at a certain place. So the location does matter, the road to that place matters. It has to fit the overall story, because the story is not only about the great adventures of Zoro the Pirate Hunter. It has to be weaved in organically, unless people have absolute zero standards and just want that headcanon fight delivered at any cost (which might very well be the case).
All I'm asking for is a concrete scenario. And if you're having such a hard time to come up with anything, then maybe, just maybe there is simply no substance to work with anymore. And I'm really open for anything, no matter how crazy the approach. Just look at Greg's posts in the last chapter thread, that's what I'm talking about. Absolute outlandish claim that Mihawk might not even be the strongest swordsman at the moment, but he also delivered his reasons AND offered several routes it could lead to.
I mean I'm not asking for Greg-level predictions here, just… something you can picture.I'm taking massive steps back, I'm almost falling over the edge here. But if the only argument for Mihawk vs. Zoro is "it was promised 12 years ago", then I consider the theory dead unless someone bothers to paint that picture.
I personally think Mihawk will fight Zoro whenever Luffy fights Shanks. And yes, I believe that will happen because that has also been set up, and there's no real reason it can't happen. The context I'm envisioning for that is Shanks ''guarding'' the last Road Poneglyph or some other important thing. Whether they win or not, or how serious of a fight it is (I'd assume not literally to the death), I don't know and it doesn't really matter for it happening.
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I personally think Mihawk will fight Zoro whenever Luffy fights Shanks. And yes, I believe that will happen because that has also been set up, and there's no real reason it can't happen. The context I'm envisioning for that is Shanks ''guarding'' the last Road Poneglyph or some other important thing. Whether they win or not, or how serious of a fight it is (I'd assume not literally to the death), I don't know and it doesn't really matter for it happening.
To enter the pirate summit you must pass the initiation test.
It's like a fraternity hazing except with alot more stabbing.
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Why do we have 5 pages of Mihawk vs Zoro?
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Err..by my logic, no. I don't think Luffy puts haki in his brain or his hat works with the brain in tandem.:ninja:
It's Oda story and he can choose whichever direction he wants regarding retconned stuffs, but making all types of things retaining haki or memory of it will make more plot-holes in the story.
It would be incredibly lazy if Oda thought of such a concept without expanding it to other things beside bladed weapons.
Oh you know damn well what I meant. Doesn't have to be about armaments. For example, that crystal ball Shirley used to predict future might have belonged to someone good with Observation. Would be a shame not to explore something you yourself wrote in the story.
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Why do we have 5 pages of Mihawk vs Zoro?
Right now i feel like it is more about if and when theories can be assumed to be more or less correct based on the known factors and the trajectory of the story thus far. Mihawks place in the story just serves as a good backdrop for that conversation since it feels pretty written into a corner at this point in time.
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@uniaka:
Haki allows you to touch the real body but buggy's body doesn't seem to be there anymore? And buggy's fruit would be rather crap since any haki user be able to hurt him. At least with logias even with haki weakness they still got all their other powers, but buggy's whole fruit thing is not able to get cut. It's not even like logias, since you can still punch him or something, it's just cuts.
If my memory serves correctly, Zoro thought he sliced Buggy good. Which means he definitely felt his sword connecting to the body.
You're implying Buggy's fruit has self awareness which allows it to split before it's even being touched by a sharp object. And it even knows if it's a sharp object before it hits it somehow. Doesn't care to split if Buggy is about to be hit with a baseball bat. Really choosy about that!
Why would his fruit be crap? Same way other people can learn Haki to bypass devil fruit defenses, Buggy or anyone using split fruit can train Observation to be able to split before being hit. Can you imagine what someone like Katakuri would do with that devil fruit?
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You say the location is irrelevant, yet you agree that Mihawk needs to be at a certain time at a certain place. So the location does matter, the road to that place matters. It has to fit the overall story, because the story is not only about the great adventures of Zoro the Pirate Hunter. It has to be weaved in organically, unless people have absolute zero standards and just want that headcanon fight delivered at any cost (which might very well be the case).
All I'm asking for is a concrete scenario. And if you're having such a hard time to come up with anything, then maybe, just maybe there is simply no substance to work with anymore. And I'm really open for anything, no matter how crazy the approach. Just look at Greg's posts in the last chapter thread, that's what I'm talking about. Absolute outlandish claim that Mihawk might not even be the strongest swordsman at the moment, but he also delivered his reasons AND offered several routes it could lead to.
What i meant by location is irrelevant was, that it could be any of the next islands the Strawhats may visit during their remaining journey. It could be Elbaf, the last island, the Log Pose is pointing at, Beehive, Laugh Tale, dunno… Yes, of course it has to fit the overall story. But it's not too hard to imagine, that Mihawk somehow gets there, alone or with someone else. My point was that there is no necessity for him to team up with (evil?) Shanks just to fight Zoro. I don't want to imagine a specific scenario, because all possibilities i come up with don't sound very good. But i wouldn't find it unrealistic if let's say Mihawk is awaiting the Strawhats on a certain island because he knows New World geography pretty well and also follows the adventures of Strawhats through newspaper. However the story unfolds, as long as Morgans will keep publishing stuff related to the Strawhats, Mihawk can go where they are or are heading to and challenge Zoro. This is incredibly shallow, i know. Another possibility would be a Davy Backfight with the Strawhats against Red Hair Pirates and Mihawk. My point is, that Mihawk and Zoro don't need another motivation to fight besides their existing rivalry and for Mihawk to find and challenge Zoro shouldn't be that hard. Of course there has to be a reasonable plot... maybe something better will come to my mind later.
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If he is believed to be the strongest swordsman but isn't. I think not being what people think you are make is what makes you a fraud.
How do you define a fraud?
Anyway my point is that is it would be strange if he was never the best since he claimed he would stay the best until Zoro was good enough to face him. Also it would make his boredom and search for challenge strange. And he also commented on Zoro bending in front of his goal for his captain.
The whole Mihawk was never the best would be strange. At worst he should have recently lost it. But if it's the case I'm of the opinion it shouldn't be in his narrative box anymore because they shouldn't be unreliable info. I would also find it annoying if Kaido lost 10 times instead of 7 for example.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I have a strong distate for contradicting information you already gave to readers as truth.
Conscious deception in order to gain something, whatever it is.
Mihawk neither claims to be that, nor does he gain something from it. -
Rockstar is Rocks's son :ninja: they have the same hair style :ninja::ninja:
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Mihawk vs Zoro has been set up since the beginning of the manga. It will happen. There is no swordsman out there that exists currently that is on his level, especially not Shiryuu.
The same way luffy and shanks was set up since the beginning, the same way ace meeting luffy at the top and whitebeard being an obstacle dor luffy set up since alabasta.
Zoro has a huge crush ob mihawk, and one piece was never the manga in which the battles were serious if there are no life and existenxe threatening stakes to them.
Mihawk does not fit as a fight both emotionally, and logistically..–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I personally think Mihawk will fight Zoro whenever Luffy fights Shanks. And yes, I believe that will happen because that has also been set up, and there's no real reason it can't happen. The context I'm envisioning for that is Shanks ''guarding'' the last Road Poneglyph or some other important thing. Whether they win or not, or how serious of a fight it is (I'd assume not literally to the death), I don't know and it doesn't really matter for it happening.
Except nearly 1000 chapters of the manga setting the tone that pretty much denies such a fight to be ever serious, which it would need to be for both.
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Shanks and Mihawk. Neither of them are heading for a happy ending.
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This should be a good moment for an Oden flashback, right before the horrendous raid failure, so it doen't get in the way for when the real alliance(Supernova) happens.
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Except nearly 1000 chapters of the manga setting the tone that pretty much denies such a fight to be ever serious, which it would need to be for both.
Depends on how you define 'serious' and how much it's needed, which are both subjective. Obviously there wouldn't be a country or something like that at stake (at least on principle, maybe it could be set up that way), but proving himself to Shanks was Luffy's motivation from the beginning. Both parties would 100% give it their all and maybe even be willing to stake their lives on it (even though they obviously won't die there, but that's something we know as the readers, it can be life-or-death for the characters themselves).
It's true that the conflicts in One Piece are almost always about liberating people from oppressive forces but that doesn't mean it can't be more personal and relatively light for once. You say battles are never serious unless there's an existential threat, but has there really been an opportunity for that to happen? Who could have Luffy fought in a serious fight that didn't involve ultra-high stakes? I could bring up stuff like Dorry vs Broggy or Usopp vs Luffy and a lot of people in general saying that real men always fight seriously or something along those lines. I could see this being a sort of breather arc before things kick into high year for the final stretch of the manga.
Also, we have to see Shanks and his crew in action at some point, and I don't really see how else we could properly get that.
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On the pro-side i would welcome a chance for Usopp to shoot his deadbeat dad in the face.
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We were going with Sanji vs Pizarro but then Jinbe vs Burguess came in and since one thing leads to other we ended up with this.
Sanji should fight Jesus Burgess. I know it's not the ideal matchup with parallelism but Burgess is the only prominent character for Sanji to face, as Luffy's third powerhouse next to Jinbe, within the Blackbeard Pirates. but I have no problem if Jinbe and Sanji fight SJW or Burgess interchangeably.
Either of Pizarro or Vasco shot ain't that prominent for Sanji to face.. so far. In the end, it's going to be Shiryuu and Zolo lol -
@I
Taeyeon:Sanji should fight Jesus Burgess. I know it's not the ideal matchup with parallelism but Burgess is the only prominent character for Sanji to face, as Luffy's third powerhouse next to Jinbe, within the Blackbeard Pirates. but I have no problem if Jinbe and Sanji fight SJW or Burgess interchangeably.
Either of Pizarro or Vasco shot ain't that prominent for Sanji to face.. so far. In the end, it's going to be Shiryuu and Zolo lolNah, it's totally Pizarro, dude's from the North Blue and Royalty, just like Sanji, he just needs to be revealed as a Creepy Cheff who cooks goats alive and their vs will be written in stone.
Burguess in the other hand, fits in for a Helmsman battle against Jinbro.
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I believe it is quite relevant Red hair was mentioned as having a liking to Oden along with Whitebeard and Roger . I think Shanks will make an appearance in Wano to assist when all hope seems lost. He must have gotten wind by now Luffy, Big Mom, and Kaidou are all on Wano, and being fond of Oden must assume something big is going down. It's only fair another Yonkou teams up with the new Yonkou to take on another team of Yonkous. Will also be a chance to drop more info on Rocks. Shanks, Luffy, The scabbards, and a handful of supernovas vs Kaidou, Big Mom, and Orochi would be quite epic. Be nice to see all of the Yonkou crew members battling/interacting with each other.
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This post is deleted!
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Conscious deception in order to gain something, whatever it is.
Mihawk neither claims to be that, nor does he gain something from it.There's a couple of ways I think Mihawk would still qualify as a fraud
! Decieving the world to gain immunity from the goverment/shichibukai status? I guess the decieving would be considered arguable on the technicality that he didn't say it to a specific person he just never corrects them and let everyone believe it.
! Let people believe he is the strongest in order to attract interesting fights.
! A more grounded example. Zoro wants to defeat the strongest swordsman. Mihawk likes the idea of fighting Zoro and lets Zoro believe he is the strongest swordsman in order for Zoro to challenge him later. Decepting Zoro to gain a good challenge. Therefore fraud.Thank you for giving me your definition. It is a lot stricter than mine. I guess I could amend it to it would be weird Mihawk yelled at Zoro how he would protect his title until Zoro is ready to face him if the title is erroneous and keeping it doesn't have to do with things he can control. Although I guess you could argue that he actually meant he will be a good warlord so the goverment or the people don't switch the title to someone else.
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Great chapter. Getting to learn all the Emperors bounties + Roger was great. Learning more about Rocks is getting very interesting. Clearly Blackbeard has some kind of connection to him. Is Rocks the reason why Blackbeard knows so much about Devil Fruits? Glade we now know the reason why Garp never became an Admiral. And I absolutely want to see that flashback of the God Valley incident.
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I hate to be the one asking… aren't the spoilers a bit late this week?
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Depends on how you define 'serious' and how much it's needed, which are both subjective. Obviously there wouldn't be a country or something like that at stake (at least on principle, maybe it could be set up that way), but proving himself to Shanks was Luffy's motivation from the beginning. Both parties would 100% give it their all and maybe even be willing to stake their lives on it (even though they obviously won't die there, but that's something we know as the readers, it can be life-or-death for the characters themselves).
It's true that the conflicts in One Piece are almost always about liberating people from oppressive forces but that doesn't mean it can't be more personal and relatively light for once. You say battles are never serious unless there's an existential threat, but has there really been an opportunity for that to happen? Who could have Luffy fought in a serious fight that didn't involve ultra-high stakes? I could bring up stuff like Dorry vs Broggy or Usopp vs Luffy and a lot of people in general saying that real men always fight seriously or something along those lines. I could see this being a sort of breather arc before things kick into high year for the final stretch of the manga.
Also, we have to see Shanks and his crew in action at some point, and I don't really see how else we could properly get that.
Once again, it´s not subjective, it´s what the manga has shown us so far, especially the protagonist need stakes and serious, possible repercussions to draw out their maximum strength, which would be needed in a final fight. And we had one possible fight without those stakes, and Luffy completely gave up on fighting at all and said it would be an empty fight, until one of his friends was seriously hurt and his treasure was stolen, then he fought.
So this happened for 1000 chapters, a friendly match to prove who is stronger speaks against that completely.
Luffy needs to prove he and his crew are above the Shanks pirates, and the way to prove that is clear, beat opponents they could not beat.We can only judge what has transpired so far. So unless the Shanks turns villain theory comes true, which is pretty unlikely, you will never get such a match.
There is a reason for that not to happen, Oda does not do it. The Grandline gives you a lot of opportunities, the possibilities are endless really to introduce good guys that could rival Luffy. Heck even the Supernova, it would have been completely possible to make Luffy fight them to decide the leader of the next era, while most Supernova seem to not fit the classical villain type. Some are more ruthless than the others but that´s it.
But Oda goes for the "all or nothing" type of storylines, and to suggest he will suddenly change that really makes no sense.
Usopp vs Luffy was with ultra high stakes, the crew´s existence was on the line, and even then Luffy could not bring out his full power, which once again he would need. Dorry and Brogy are not protagonists.You can see enough against Blackbeard.
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There's a couple of ways I think Mihawk would still qualify as a fraud
! Decieving the world to gain immunity from the goverment/shichibukai status? I guess the decieving would be considered arguable on the technicality that he didn't say it to a specific person he just never corrects them and let everyone believe it.
! Let people believe he is the strongest in order to attract interesting fights.
! A more grounded example. Zoro wants to defeat the strongest swordsman. Mihawk likes the idea of fighting Zoro and lets Zoro believe he is the strongest swordsman in order for Zoro to challenge him later. Decepting Zoro to gain a good challenge. Therefore fraud.Thank you for giving me your definition. It is a lot stricter than mine. I guess I could amend it to it would be weird Mihawk yelled at Zoro how he would protect his title until Zoro is ready to face him if the title is erroneous and keeping it doesn't have to do with things he can control. Although I guess you could argue that he actually meant he will be a good warlord so the goverment or the people don't switch the title to someone else.
Imagine this, some people say stuff about you, it might be true or not, are you a fraud now? I don´t think so.
And it´s not like Mihawk would be completely off. Like i said, he had the title when he fought Shanks, who in turn was not a Yonkou yet, and they tied. You can make of that what you want. Maybe Shanks grew significantly stronger and Mihawk stayed the same, maybe Shanks has other powers beyond swordsmanship and so forth.
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I think I was misinpertring you a little. Then I just don't see why Shanks vs Luffy can't have high, if not worl-ending, stakes. It wouldn't be for fun. It'd be for real. The only 'friendly' part would be that they're friends. The reason I bring up Dorry and Broggy is that it established that friends can fight to the death. As I first mentioned it could be Shanks guarding a Road Poneglyph or otherwise becoming an obstacle that Luffy has to overcome to progress. Luffy didn't fight Bellamy because there was no point, but obviously there would be a point against Shanks. Many reasons, in fact.
And, no, we won't see enough against Teach. That's gonna be SO off-screen. No way Oda shows what the Blackbeard pirates can really do before their fights against the Strawhats.
Also, Am I supposed to believe that Shanks' only moment of major focus in the story will be getting killed? Because I seriously doubt that.
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Imagine this, some people say stuff about you, it might be true or not, are you a fraud now? I don´t think so.
If people keep saying you're the fastest runner of your family but your little brother is actually but you never say anythiing when people bring it up. Sure you are. Maybe not maliciously maybe even out of sheer laziness but you are.
And it´s not like Mihawk would be completely off. Like i said, he had the title when he fought Shanks, who in turn was not a Yonkou yet, and they tied. You can make of that what you want. Maybe Shanks grew significantly stronger and Mihawk stayed the same, maybe Shanks has other powers beyond swordsmanship and so forth.
It's not like I'm attached to Mihawk power level. I always found annoying how people randomly put him higher than other warlords despite none of them being swordsman.
I am however attached to those narriation box and what they say. If the start to become BS than I have problem. Shanks isn't a swordsman and is much stronger than Mihawk? Good. Shilliew defeated Mihawk recently and got the title? Ok. Actually Mihawk title was always a mistake? Don't like it. He always knew? F******ck that. I hate rewriting the information you gave your audience in the past.Also I hate false reputation. Either make it fit previous info or just suck it up and put your new shiny cool idea in the trash because sadly it has no place in the story.
In Mihawk case it goes further than that. He made Zoro chase him based on the idea that he was the best. If he knows it is wrong and was bullshiting I will find it annoying. Just have someone defeat him by having gotten stronger.
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Considering that Shanks became a yonko 6 years ago I guess it makes sense they didn't care about Blackbeard. They all to lazy to care about someone rising up.
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If people keep saying you're the fastest runner of your family but your little brother is actually but you never say anythiing when people bring it up. Sure you are. Maybe not maliciously maybe even out of sheer laziness but you are.
It's not like I'm attached to Mihawk power level. I always found annoying how people randomly put him higher than other warlords despite none of them being swordsman.
I am however attached to those narriation box and what they say. If the start to become BS than I have problem. Shanks isn't a swordsman and is much stronger than Mihawk? Good. Shilliew defeated Mihawk recently and got the title? Ok. Actually Mihawk title was always a mistake? Don't like it. He always knew? F******ck that. I hate rewriting the information you gave your audience in the past.Also I hate false reputation. Either make it fit previous info or just suck it up and put your new shiny cool idea in the trash because sadly it has no place in the story.
In Mihawk case it goes further than that. He made Zoro chase him based on the idea that he was the best. If he knows it is wrong and was bullshiting I will find it annoying. Just have someone defeat him by having gotten stronger.
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Considering that Shanks became a yonko 6 years ago I guess it makes sense they didn't care about Blackbeard. They all to lazy to care about someone rising up.
Why do you need to correct something people say of their own volition? And why would Mihawk even know about it? The Shanks thing is known in the Grandline, meaning people still called him that despite the two tying, and after that Mihawk was never beat.
And the way to get the title has been clear since Zoro´s introduction, beat the guy who holds the title.Me neither, that´s not the issue though. Well the reasoning was clear, Mihawk fought a Yonkou, the pinnacle of strength in the current world, and tied, something the other Shichibukai can not come close to. And in addition, Oda has always portrayed Mihawk alongside the Yonkou and Admirals, whether it´s in Marineford, or SBS questions and so forth.
Now that we know he did not actually fight a Yonkou but someone who was on the way there but not there yet, people can make of it what they want.The title box was wrong though already, at least when it was introduced, namely Whitebeard, who himself admitted he was not the strongest anymore. The title was true at one point, and that´s it (even then his title is shaky as well, considering he got it when Roger was alive and well, and Whitebeard´s strength is always pointed out in relation to Roger´s strength). So the "absoluteness" of said titles are already gone, if they come with specific circumstances.
So it´s a matter of preference to you? That does not matter to me to be honest, i am talking about possibilities irregardless of personal preferences.
I wish One Piece was a manga in which the Mihawk vs Zoro fight would be possible, and Mihawk will keep his promise, but it´s really not looking good. -
So it´s a matter of preference to you? That does not matter to me to be honest, i am talking about possibilities irregardless of personal preferences.
My initial post was that since Mihawk claimed he would stay at the top until Zoro is good enough to face him it would be strange if he never was at the top. Not something about my preferences
But using the world fraud instead of mistake lead to giant rabbit hole about Mihawk ethics or something like that.
So the "absoluteness" of said titles are already gone, if they come with specific circumstances.
If the narration boxes are bs than how do we know when Zoro accomplish his goal. I thought his goal was being the best not just being called the best.
I understand that characters can bs but if the narration also get to bs you than there's a problem since there's no way to establish the truth.@MiyamotoMusashi:
Why do you need to correct something people say of their own volition?
It doesn't make you evil or bad if that's your question.
And why would Mihawk even know about it?
Even if somehow he didn't know that he was considered the best when facing Zoro there's a bunch of people that keeps yelling about it. Including Zoro who makes it clear that's where his interest in the fight lies.
The Shanks thing is known in the Grandline, meaning people still called him that despite the two tying, and after that Mihawk was never beat.
I have no idea when he got the title. Did I miss a panel or is it supplementary material? We know he fought Shanks than Shanks showed up missing an arm. I assumed they were both contestants in a giant competition and Shanks lost when he lost his arm.
And the way to get the title has been clear since Zoro´s introduction, beat the guy who holds the title.
If the title was given to Mihawk despite not being the strongest than it can be given to someone else despite that someone not being the strongest.
The title box was wrong though already, at least when it was introduced, namely Whitebeard, who himself admitted he was not the strongest anymore. The title was true at one point, and that´s it
Whitebeard thing as a lot of factors wrapped in it. Most simple being He said he couldn't stay the strongest forever not that he already lost it. I could argue he was talking about his coming death.
even then his title is shaky as well, considering he got it when Roger was alive and well, and Whitebeard´s strength is always pointed out in relation to Roger´s strength
I assume he got it when Roger died. Seriously is there some place where all those information of when people got their title come up? Is it another vivre card thing or an interview?
I wish One Piece was a manga in which the Mihawk vs Zoro fight would be possible, and Mihawk will keep his promise, but it´s really not looking good.
I don't think they are going to have an on screen fight if you think that's what I'm arguing.
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Right now i feel like it is more about if and when theories can be assumed to be more or less correct based on the known factors and the trajectory of the story thus far. Mihawks place in the story just serves as a good backdrop for that conversation since it feels pretty written into a corner at this point in time.
The sentiment in this post strikes me as really arrogant. These boards are a little echo chamber where certain ideas are repeated so frequently that people believe unwritten material to be more or less confirmed. You can't call any theory 'correct' until it appears on the pages of the manga. The theory that Mihawk will be killed by Shiryu isn't 'more or less correct'… not by a long shot.
I think the funny thing about these theories - that Blackbeard will take over the world gov or that Shiryu will kill Mihawk, is that they originate from the need to transfer the qualities of other characters or organizations to the Blackbeard Pirates. It also reminds me of the episode of the office where Dwight wins salesmen of the year and Michael is super jealous. Dwight is nervous to speak publicly, so Michael takes the stage to stall and bombs. hard. Fails to get even a single laugh. When Dwight is finally ready, Michael doesn't even attend the speech, despite the fact that Dwight kills it and has the entire audience on their feet. Michael later sits and talks with Dwight at the bar and Dwight, ass-kisser that he is, is captivated by Michael's stories. In the final talking head, Michael, reflecting on the fact that he bombed and Dwight killed it before a large crowd, states that though Dwight captivated thousands, he captivated Dwight, implying his stature as the true master orator. That same logic seems to permeate these theories which necessitate the Blackbeard Pirates making late game moves to supplant the roles of other characters in the story to make them the true masters of everything / final villains. It just seems so artificial and forced - and not at all in keeping with the 'trajectory of the series' as you mentioned.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
The sentiment in this post strikes me as really arrogant. These boards are a little echo chamber where certain ideas are repeated so frequently that people believe unwritten material to be more or less confirmed. You can't call any theory 'correct' until it appears on the pages of the manga. The theory that Mihawk will be killed by Shiryu isn't 'more or less correct'… not by a long shot.
I think the funny thing about these theories - that Blackbeard will take over the world gov or that Shiryu will kill Mihawk, is that they originate from the need to transfer the qualities of other characters or organizations to the Blackbeard Pirates. It also reminds me of the episode of the office where Dwight wins salesmen of the year and Michael is super jealous. Dwight is nervous to speak publicly, so Michael takes the stage to stall and bombs. hard. Fails to get even a single laugh. When Dwight is finally ready, Michael doesn't even attend the speech, despite the fact that Dwight kills it and has the entire audience on their feet. Michael later sits and talks with Dwight at the bar and Dwight, ass-kisser that he is, is captivated by Michael's stories. In the final talking head, Michael, reflecting on the fact that he bombed and Dwight killed it before a large crowd, states that though Dwight captivated thousands, he captivated Dwight, implying his stature as the true master orator. That same logic seems to permeate these theories which necessitate the Blackbeard Pirates making late game moves to supplant the roles of other characters in the story to make them the true masters of everything / final villains. It just seems so artificial and forced - and not at all in keeping with the 'trajectory of the series' as you mentioned.
I'll be absolutely honest i could not follow that the office bit at all.
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I get what he means. Not the best analogy, though.
Like Shiryuu becomes the top swordsman not by building his reputation slowly and being recognized by the world, but simply by offing Mihawk, maybe through underhanded means. But plenty of things could happen until then. Shiryuu now doesn't have to be same as Shiryuu in the future. Same for Blackbeard.
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I get what he means. Not the best analogy, though.
Like Shiryuu becomes the top swordsman not by building his reputation slowly and being recognized by the world, but simply by offing Mihawk, maybe through underhanded means. But plenty of things could happen until then. Shiryuu now doesn't have to be same as Shiryuu in the future. Same for Blackbeard.
The shuryu bit is just a lazy assumption based on Blacky being the endgame villain. The meat of what makes people think it won't be a proper Zoro vs Mihawk fight is more to do with the fact he has no natural place in the story and that he has grown into a direction where he is less likely to be the end all battle, for instance that he's the teacher of the guy who is supossed to kill him. I suppose you could read arrogance into the fact that Mihawk has to hurry up and die has sort of grown into a meme by now tho
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Same for Zoro(mastering Enma and turning it into a black blade.) and Luffy(mastering armament, haoshuku, awaking, voice of everything and whatever else left.).
I dunno about you guys but Mihawk strikes me a master of his art, the top of swordsmanship. I doubt he can be offed will some tricks, he looks very sharp to me. The guy has been surviving the grandline/Nw is a small boat ffs.
Luffy can fight Shanks and his crew for the last Road Poneglyph or on the road to Raftle..etc it doesn't have to be a menacing fight to the death. In the past I imagined BB would off Shanks after his bout with Luffy(when shanks is still recovering). Current Oda can do as he pleases pretty much, he'd even change things he planned(including the ending of OP) if many people predicted it or it became viral.
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As for Mihwak he can fight Zoro before Raftle as well or before they fight Shank's crew. I doubt it would happen on the same island as it would be too much for the strawhats. It could happen after the great war as well. Depends on how Oda want to handle the strawhat's dreams. Franky and Nami's dreams will be achieved after Luffy's. So who knows about Zoro's
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Luffy can fight Shanks and his crew for the last Road Poneglyph or on the road to Raftle..etc it doesn't have to be a menacing fight to the death. In the past I imagined BB would off Shanks after his bout with Luffy(when shanks is still recovering). Current Oda can do as he pleases pretty much, he'd even change things he planned(including the ending of OP) if many people predicted it or it became viral.
There isn't going to be any kind of fight between Luffy and Shanks.
You could say Shanks and BB are fated opponents, and their conflict was foreshadowed and is inevitable. Someone has to win in that conflict and BB has greater chances of winning. Because if Shanks wins, where does that leave Blackbeard as an ever rising threat to both the main character and the world? And if Blackbeard wins and Shanks survives and retreats, it's not like he'll be able to give Luffy a fun careless fight, let alone a serious fight.
The man already bet his arm on Luffy. He won't need to fight him to determine if he won that bet.
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There isn't going to be any kind of fight between Luffy and Shanks.
S: "hey Luffy, time to give me back my hat!"
L: "naa, I like it, and they call me straw hat Luffy after all…"
S: "you little son of.. it was a promise!"Narrator: "This is the story of the straw hat that wielded the power to start big wars, the hat that ancient people used to call... Uranus!"
DOOON! -
There isn't going to be any kind of fight between Luffy and Shanks.
You could say Shanks and BB are fated opponents, and their conflict was foreshadowed and is inevitable. Someone has to win in that conflict and BB has greater chances of winning. Because if Shanks wins, where does that leave Blackbeard as an ever rising threat to both the main character and the world? And if Blackbeard wins and Shanks survives and retreats, it's not like he'll be able to give Luffy a fun careless fight, let alone a serious fight.
The man already bet his arm on Luffy. He won't need to fight him to determine if he won that bet.
I think almost everyone that thinks Luffy vs Shanks is gonna happen thinks it'll happen before Shanks vs Blackbeard.
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You can't spell Sengoku without Goku.
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My initial post was that since Mihawk claimed he would stay at the top until Zoro is good enough to face him it would be strange if he never was at the top. Not something about my preferences
But using the world fraud instead of mistake lead to giant rabbit hole about Mihawk ethics or something like that.
If the narration boxes are bs than how do we know when Zoro accomplish his goal. I thought his goal was being the best not just being called the best.
I understand that characters can bs but if the narration also get to bs you than there's a problem since there's no way to establish the truth.
It doesn't make you evil or bad if that's your question.Even if somehow he didn't know that he was considered the best when facing Zoro there's a bunch of people that keeps yelling about it. Including Zoro who makes it clear that's where his interest in the fight lies.
I have no idea when he got the title. Did I miss a panel or is it supplementary material? We know he fought Shanks than Shanks showed up missing an arm. I assumed they were both contestants in a giant competition and Shanks lost when he lost his arm.
If the title was given to Mihawk despite not being the strongest than it can be given to someone else despite that someone not being the strongest.
Whitebeard thing as a lot of factors wrapped in it. Most simple being He said he couldn't stay the strongest forever not that he already lost it. I could argue he was talking about his coming death.
I assume he got it when Roger died. Seriously is there some place where all those information of when people got their title come up? Is it another vivre card thing or an interview?
I don't think they are going to have an on screen fight if you think that's what I'm arguing.
Nobody claimed ever, he fought a lot of people stood on top and was unbeaten, got bored and became Shichi, later found rival Shanks.
Never being on top and somebody being stronger now are completely different things."My name will reach the heavens", it will reach it.
Neither does it make you a fraud if you do not correct them, once again assuming you know it´s actually wrong (like people calling Luffy 8m for example), which is not even a given in Mihawk´s case.
Yeah but a bunch of people call a lot of things, has nothing to do with the possibility that there is someone stronger than him, whether it´s Shanks or somebody else.
The duels were Shanks vs Mihawk specifically, they are called rivals. And it´s something that shook the Grandline, even someone like Whitebeard took notice of it.
Everything else beyond that comes from supplementary stuff iirc.See above.
Once again, something having "factors in it" is literally the definition of not absolute. Something absolute has no factors or circumstances regarding it.
And by extension, any similar title can easily have similar factors "in it".Vivre card.
Which they would need to have since it´s Zoro´s dream and all, unless you think everyone is going to achieve their dream in an epilogue setting, which i think is the most unlikely outcome.
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Nobody claimed ever, he fought a lot of people stood on top and was unbeaten, got bored and became Shichi, later found rival Shanks.
I know. Like I said I don't know when he got the title.
Never being on top and somebody being stronger now are completely different things.
I mentioned several it's fine if he lost the title. It's the title itself being wrong that is my problem. Narration should be reliable information.
"My name will reach the heavens", it will reach it.
Kuina was crying about not being able to become the best and I interpretated the promise to be about that. But I guess it could just be holding a title claiming you're the best.
Neither does it make you a fraud if you do not correct them, once again assuming you know it´s actually wrong
He did more than not correcting he confirmed it to Zoro and promised to stay the best.
which is not even a given in Mihawk´s case.
Than it makes the interraction between Zoro and Mihawk fine since he is wrong instead of deceptive. Which was our discussion.
It stills make narration unreliable but that's another discussion.
Yeah but a bunch of people call a lot of things, has nothing to do with the possibility that there is someone stronger than him, whether it´s Shanks or somebody else.
His title is being the strongest swordsman. It's fine if people that aren't considered swordsman are stronger. If they are swordsman and stronger than it makes the narration wrong and the narration should be reliable.
Once again, something having "factors in it" is literally the definition of not absolute. Something absolute has no factors or circumstances regarding it.
And by extension, any similar title can easily have similar factors "in it".If Oda find a way to keep the narration true and do wathever that's fine. If the narration box is simply wrong that's that's my problem. The narration should be reliable.
Vivre card.
Those supplementary materials are getting annoying. I shouldn't have to discuss stuff from outside the manga. Didn't we establish the vivre are BS because they were wrong about when Shanks became an emperor or something similar?
Which they would need to have since it´s Zoro´s dream and all
Zoro could get it from whoever has/earned the title after Mihawk or get it from his accomplishments.
unless you think everyone is going to achieve their dream in an epilogue setting, which i think is the most unlikely outcome.
Not everyone. Only some like Nami mapping the world.
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when do chapters usually come out?
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when do chapters usually come out?
The official chapter will be out on Sunday at 4pm Eastern, generally on the dot. You can read it for free at:
[https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters/one-piece
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