! Is that our first 100% unambiguous confirmation that Toga can use the Quirks of people she drinks?
My Hero Academia II - A true Hero
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@Cyan:
! Is that our first 100% unambiguous confirmation that Toga can use the Quirks of people she drinks?
! I do believe so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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! Best case scenario, she can only copy quirks on repeat drinkings, so no sudden omni-Toga. Deku again poses the "base all for one or current all for one" challenge/release valve set up by Monoma.
! Also, the height didn't seem enough to crush these people to death, into puddles of blood and gore, at least a panel more for vertigo would have gone a long way in selling those deaths. -
! Yeah, kinda bothered she can just use it like a pro and turn people into mush. Ochako was nowhere near that good when we first met her, if I remember well.
! Glad the author isn't shying away from the dark side of the coin. Quirks are fun and all, but they can strongly affect the individual, just like basically everything else in their childhood, that isn't even a part of their being.
! In that sense, you can see some sense in Liberation Army's thinking, or even in League of Villains' more extreme take on things.
! Heroism is cool and people shouldn't be killing other people, but until you can find a way to deal with weakest links of the society (people with messed up quirks in this case), the society itself is just a facade and needs some changes. -
! So, did Toga's quirk evolve like what Chitose claimed?
Or did the liberation army make a mistake during their intel gathering?
Either way, this is totally convenient in a fashion I totally dislike.
I mean, I knew Horikoshi wouldn't dare to let a member of the league lose, but I think he could've pulled it off better than this.
! >! To be honest, as soon as it was apparent that it was an arc focused on League of Villains I got disappointed.
They work better when opposing the protagonists because none of them is interesting on their own.
And while an arc focused on them has the potential to make them grow out of their boring crazy personalities, this battle shows this won't be the case.
Also, no, showing how Toga thinks didn't make her any less shallow. At this point, the only one with a chance of a satisfying development is Spinner.
If quirk evolution turns out to be true, then this might be the way some of the characters we know will keep up. I mean, as soon as Shiggy gets AfO and Deku awakens all of his 7 quirks, most of the current formidable allies/rivals will be left in the dust. Also, now Toga's quirk is very similar to Monoma's, I wonder if she can copy OfA. -
! Yea, not a fan of this development.
! Actually, the gruesome ending aside, didn't enjoy this fight much at all. -
! Lmao what in the world. I felt like I was watching the Pokemon anime when Ash Pokemon push an evolution to win while a flashback plays.
Jesus Christ was this cringeworthy and the most generic shounen chapter i've ever read. You know I'm just going to come out and say this. Hero Academia has lost its original polish, its not getting better, in fact I feel like it has no idea what it wants to convey anymore.
Nah uh don't ask me to give it a few chapters, there's going to be highlights here and there but it won't excuse the quality drop. I hope its not but I feel like I can now safety bet that it will go downhill from here.
Atta guys. -
! I liked the flashback, it seems some quirks affect the mindset of their users, kinda like an animal instict. It explains how people with weird quirks find how they work.
! About the quirk thing, it doesnt bother me since her prototype design in one of the volumes said she could do that. What bothered me is the fact that people were crushed to death without showing us they were high enough.
! I only hope that the army doesnt become a one-arc baddies for Shigi to destroy. -
! I really liked Toga's backstory. Especially how vague particular events are. It feels good horror movie (reminds me of Hereditary and Halloween specifically) and leaves enough gaps to be explored later for further development, although I hope we don't find out every single detail and leave some things up to interpretation. I'm still curious about where Toga learned her combat skills, especially since Curious also inquired about that. The fight's resolution itself felt cheap and underwhelmingly drawn though.
! So, did Toga's quirk evolve like what Chitose claimed?
Or did the liberation army make a mistake during their intel gathering?! I'm not exactly sure because of the placement of Toga's "NOPE" quote bubble right next to her theory. But I am pretty sure that it is an evolution similar to Kirishima's power-up in the Overhaul arc. You know, where he learned how to "become harder" because he was in a life-or-death situation just like Toga was here. Wasn't a fan of it then, not a fan of this here. I would much prefer it to be a cause of misunderstanding what the Quirk actually does in the first place, which I believe was mentioned early in the manga when discussing costume changes. Maybe she can use people's Quirks if she ingests their blood more than once. I would be fine with a rule like that.
! Either way, this is totally convenient in a fashion I totally dislike.
I mean, I knew Horikoshi wouldn't dare to let a member of the league lose, but I think he could've pulled it off better than this.! Yeah, I have to agree. The sudden power-up is cheap. Especially since it seems like she's as or even more skilled with it than Ochako. Although it's at least a bit more inventive than Kirishima's is. But I also have to question if this type of power-up is even necessary when Twice already exists. It makes his role on the team slightly more redundant.
! To be honest, as soon as it was apparent that it was an arc focused on League of Villains I got disappointed.
They work better when opposing the protagonists because none of them is interesting on their own.
And while an arc focused on them has the potential to make them grow out of their boring crazy personalities, this battle shows this won't be the case.! I disagree with you here though. A League of Villains focused arc has been LONG overdue. One of my biggest complaints during the Overhaul arc was how the League of Villains got so little panel time and relevancy despite all of the build-up and possibilities when the alliance was first established. Being recurring antagonists towards the heroes in this series lets them shine in certain ways but is also a big reason why most of the League has felt bland and why I wasn't fully invested in Shigaraki trusting and caring about his teammates more. He tried to kill Toga and Dabi when they first met. Where's the connective tissue that syncs the Shigaraki from back then with the Shigaraki now who's comfortable showing his face and trusting a couple minions destabilize the Yakuza's operation through sheer improvisation?
! We need scenes/chapters/arcs from the League's perspective so that they can become interesting in the first place as a big cast of recurring characters that often have to share antagonist spotlights with guys like Stain, All for One, the Cleansers, and probably the Liberation Army. That doesn't fully excuse Horikoshi from writing these characters better while they act as antagonists. But the League is in an awkward narrative position where they need to grow into becoming better villains (probably because Shigaraki is most likely the series' final antagonist thus far) but can't be the only main arc villains because being defeated by the heroes will obstruct their progress.
! So unless Horikoshi's writing evolves to balance the League suffering setbacks while still maintaining their growth and being willing to let the heroes lose to the League of Villains, letting the story be about them for a little while is the best option. And it is sure as hell more interesting than the last couple arcs have mostly been.
! In addition, it took a while for the main hero characters to get fleshed out one by one so it is understandable for Horikoshi to pace out the villains' development similarly. Rather than pulling a Kishimoto and introducing a whole cast of interesting colorful characters in one arc but then doom himself to disappointing readers when they hardly get focused on in the future.! Also, no, showing how Toga thinks didn't make her any less shallow. At this point, the only one with a chance of a satisfying development is Spinner.
! I'm completely fine with Toga having shallow characterization. Shallow characters can be very fun depending on their character traits, what they represent, and how the author utilizes them in the story. Prime example being Hisoka in Hunter x Hunter being a very entertaining wild card yet consistently static and flat character. Her simple drive is unique, creepy, and opens up fun potential for how she can interact with characters or make story decisions in the future.
! And this origin story in particular not only helps to develop Toga but the overall League. Like Twice and Shigaraki's backstories, it helps give their existence a lot more thematic weight because they were all largely shaped by being born with unfortunate Quirks that either induced trauma or personality traits society can't accommodate or tolerate, much like nurture vs nature debates and neurodiverse people in real life.
! I doubt Horikoshi's absolving these characters of their crimes because of sob stories. Toga is still clearly creepy as hell, Twice is desperate for friends, Spinner channeled his low self-esteem into becoming a delusional fanboy, and Shigaraki is literally an edgy teenager cranked up to 11. The League of Villains as a whole is basically a street gang full of angsty isolated teenagers forming a makeshift family and venting out their frustrations at the world in petty destructive ways. And… I kind of like it more than I thought I would have?
! Which sounds underwhelming on paper but this dynamic has been growing on me the more we learn about the League of Villains instead of being the typical postmodern sympathetic villains who have noble goals but faulty methods like in Hollywood movies nowadays. They're not trying to BS the world about the kind of people they are (and we're getting that with other antagonists like The Liberation Army and All for One). The League as an antagonist group being unapologetically villainous and selfish like the Joker is becoming appealing for me in the same way that All-Might is such a cool character for being so unapologetically heroic and selfless like Superman. The League can and should still develop more but I'm finally getting into them and their overall plot/character direction.
! Which I think is because that is ironically a breath of fresh air in a time where we've become so cynical and jaded about the world and how predictable and flawed stories can be. Yet still feels honest and grounded by not being pessimistic or morally complex for the sake of it. And yes, morals/sides can and have been black-and-white in real life. So Horikoshi is instead embracing obvious traditional superhero comic morality but giving those tropes well-written and/or subverted execution and deconstructing why its so timeless and beloved.
! But even then, Horikoshi is introducing big philosophical topics about how Quirks are regarded by the world that delve into some interestingly grey territory. While Twice, Toga, and Shigaraki deserve to go to jail, I still can't fully blame them for how they turned out because of how society would either shame them or make them repress who they are. Eri and the overall Quirk singularity are likely tied into this plotline as well.
! I really hope Horikoshi digs into these uncomfortable societal and ethical implications and doesn't just settle for the status-quo being a-okay and locking up the League of Villains in jail easily solves everything by the end of the series. Because even if they do get defeated, I feel as though it's inevitable for another League of Villains and Liberation Army to pop up unless some changes are made.
! Sorry if that's a lot but this arc has gotten me thinking a LOT about where the series could go and why it has been hooking me in more than the last couple or more arcs. I think it's finally becoming one of my favorite manga again.
! But none of that changes how this overall fight was ass and how I only like it from a character analysis perspective lol. -
I still hope Mr. Compress also gets some development in this arc. He is so far the most underdeveloped character of the LoV. Why did he become a criminal and what does he hope to get from being part of the LoV?
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@Count:
! I disagree with you here though. A League of Villains focused arc has been LONG overdue. One of my biggest complaints during the Overhaul arc was how the League of Villains got so little panel time and relevancy despite all of the build-up and possibilities when the alliance was first established. Being recurring antagonists towards the heroes in this series lets them shine in certain ways but is also a big reason why most of the League has felt bland and why I wasn't fully invested in Shigaraki trusting and caring about his teammates more. He tried to kill Toga and Dabi when they first met. Where's the connective tissue that syncs the Shigaraki from back then with the Shigaraki now who's comfortable showing his face and trusting a couple minions destabilize the Yakuza's operation through sheer improvisation?
! We need scenes/chapters/arcs from the League's perspective so that they can become interesting in the first place as a big cast of recurring characters that often have to share antagonist spotlights with guys like Stain, All for One, the Cleansers, and probably the Liberation Army. That doesn't fully excuse Horikoshi from writing these characters better while they act as antagonists. But the League is in an awkward narrative position where they need to grow into becoming better villains (probably because Shigaraki is most likely the series' final antagonist thus far) but can't be the only main arc villains because being defeated by the heroes will obstruct their progress.
! So unless Horikoshi's writing evolves to balance the League suffering setbacks while still maintaining their growth and being willing to let the heroes lose to the League of Villains, letting the story be about them for a little while is the best option. And it is sure as hell more interesting than the last couple arcs have mostly been.
! In addition, it took a while for the main hero characters to get fleshed out one by one so it is understandable for Horikoshi to pace out the villains' development similarly. Rather than pulling a Kishimoto and introducing a whole cast of interesting colorful characters in one arc but then doom himself to disappointing readers when they hardly get focused on in the future.! I agree that the League of Villains need more screentime, but an arc focused on them isn't the best way in my opinion.
Simply put, they deserve to shine but their ambitions and chemistry isn't interesting enough to carry an entire arc on its own.
And yeah, this arc could be they way to explore them and develop their interactions to be less boring to watch, but this chapter indicates this won't be the case.
Last but not least, while the flashback chapters were fine by me, it feels the whole Liberation Army storyline is pushing the plot nowhere, and the League doesn't seem to be developing in any meaningful way, and the whole thing with the doctor and Gigantomachia (which is probably the main progression the League will experience in this arc) is totally separate, which makes me feel the Liberation Army are being wasted as punching bags. -
! that was quite the brutal death..what if ochako got violent XD
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! Okay, people can dislike this chapter/fight/development all they want,
but I'm completely opposite on this one. I was left breathless in a very good way.
I actually felt the intensity and my blood was pumping for Toga to win somehow.
! I loved this outcome, and I didn't question the quirk evolution at all.
This is definitely a situation of extremely high stress, what better time to push/awaken your ability?
To me it's NO different from Deku going beyond his limits against Muscular in the forest camp arc.
I'm also sure that we've been told that anyone's quirk can evolve with enough training.
This isn't out of nowhere, and I totally buy that it could happen in such a desperate situation that had Toga at her limits.
! I loved how brutal and bloody this fight was, and I found this insight into her childhood interesting.
This really helps further the idea that the MHA society is definitely not where it should be just yet,
which is something I'm really appreciating. Hori is doing good work here IMO.
I'm enjoying this a lot more than Class A vs Class B at any rate.
! Also, glad that I called Toga murdering her opponent. It was the only possible outcome after so much provocation.
But damn, that was a cold and instant way to do it. Just shows how easy it would be for Ochako to kill people with her quirk if she really wanted to! -
! Wonder how much Toga has to live. With all that supposed internal bleeding and stuff.
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! Sigh, it seems the author is hellbent on breaking the rules of his own story. Toga suddenly being able to copy powers is as lame as Deku suddenly finding out that he has 9 more power ups to look forward to.
! It just destroys the internal consistency of the story and it looks like a cheap way for the author to get his characters out of trouble.
! What a shame. -
! I think Toga’s casa falls under misunderstood quirks. She can shapeshift into another person,clothes include, by ingesting blood but never considered that she could copy a quirk.
! Now the more important part, she knows how Ochako’s quirk works and that’s may be the most fundamental part of her being able to copy.
! Could she be able to mimic Momo’s quirk upon seeing her in action and drinking her blood, i don’t think so. Could she do the same to Kendo, absolutely yes.
! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk -
! I agree that the League of Villains need more screentime, but an arc focused on them isn't the best way in my opinion.
Simply put, they deserve to shine but their ambitions and chemistry isn't interesting enough to carry an entire arc on its own.
And yeah, this arc could be they way to explore them and develop their interactions to be less boring to watch, but this chapter indicates this won't be the case.
Last but not least, while the flashback chapters were fine by me, it feels the whole Liberation Army storyline is pushing the plot nowhere, and the League doesn't seem to be developing in any meaningful way, and the whole thing with the doctor and Gigantomachia (which is probably the main progression the League will experience in this arc) is totally separate, which makes me feel the Liberation Army are being wasted as punching bags.! I can agree that their interactions thus far aren't that interesting enough. But I disagree on their ambitions. I think they're simple and psychologically rich with potential to dig into.
! I would love to see Spinner meeting up with other physically unique Quirk users like him, or Toga's bloodthirst make the League's plan go awry, or Shigaraki interacting with people and he overall world to deconstruct his petty destruction behavior beyond talking about it. Right now they're just reacting to the Liberation Army and not being allowed much agency to explore their characterization potential.
! The issue is that Horikoshi doesn't want to give them interesting focus/roles related to their motivations so much as give backstories and exposition as reactions to other arc villains. They lack agency in how they operate and develop. The closest we got to that was Shigaraki interrogating Deku at the mall, and I want more plot beats like that. I love the backstories but I want that kind of storytelling in the present as well with what the League members do. If that makes sense.
! And while this arc could have been a chance to make their interaction chemistry more interesting, it is lacking like you said. We got a taste of that with Shigaraki swiping Twice's mask and Spinner confronting Shigaraki, but those only amount to small moments that get pushed off to the side. And Dabi's lone wolf act only inhibits making him more interesting beyond Shoto's long lost older brother.
! I'm willing to wait on seeing more of the arc before writing off the Liberation Army as punching bags for the League. If that does happen, it will be very VERY underwhelming. But I'm expecting this conflict to not get fully resolved before the perspective switches back to the heroes. The Liberation Army has potential for developing the League because of how technically similar their beliefs are (evident by Curious wanting to use Toga's backstory for reporting propaganda), and I would argue that we already got some of that for Toga (I count finding out more about a character's past as development since it gives them more depth and understanding like character development usually does.) And we don't know how things will turn out once Gigantomachia comes into play so those two separate plot threads can still merge for all we know, although I get that not being too interesting yet either.
! But I get your issues and worries with this arc. They are valid and I hope I did not come across as saying the League are perfect characters. They can definitely be a lot better. Yet I see a lot of interesting themes and potential in Horikoshi's writing that he sometimes lives up to but more than not leaves me wanting more, and this arc is so unconventional and the Liberation Army is fascinating enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. But if I get another Overhaul… ugh. -
! HOW is it breaking any rules? QUIRKS CAN EVOLVE. We KNOW this.
! If devil fruits can "awaken" in One Piece, then why can't I believe in Toga's quirk evolving?
You start off with the base ability, but with training and application you can discover new abilities when using it.
Makes perfect sense to me, I was actually EXCITED about this development.
! @pariston_hill:
! > I think Toga’s casa falls under misunderstood quirks. She can shapeshift into another person,clothes include, by ingesting blood but never considered that she could copy a quirk.Now the more important part, she _knows how Ochako’s quirk works and that’s may be the most fundamental part of her being able to copy.
Could she be able to mimic Momo’s quirk upon seeing her in action and drinking her blood, i don’t think so. Could she do the same to Kendo, absolutely yes.
I agree with this, makes sense to me._ -
People have been very quick and eager to pinpoint Hori’s flaws and be merciless on the series as a whole because of them.
Or authors have made similar blunders but we let that slide. And while the foreshadowing in MHA is not as strong as the one in Black Clover, is pretty decent. All the points people usually complain where told one way or another in the first 75ch or so.
! As much as people want the Liberation Army to stick, I want them to be a mere level up for the LoV. I guess the neutral outcome would be Giga destroying the city, two of the Monarch’s inner circle dying,Monarch and Gorillaz dude escaping in their glorious flying coccon and the destruction of the city attributed to the leak, so a new influx of lost and oppressed can flock to them for the Doctor to tinkering with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If the conversation is going to be "asspull asspull" then enjoy it, I'll be somewhere else.
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For those going "asspull", go to the link below. It's from volume 19, released over a year ago (spoilers, obviously):
! Sigh, it seems the author is hellbent on breaking the rules of his own story. Toga suddenly being able to copy powers is as lame as Deku suddenly finding out that he has 9 more power ups to look forward to.
! It just destroys the internal consistency of the story and it looks like a cheap way for the author to get his characters out of trouble.
! What a shame.! What's the internal consistency of the story?
! We know Quirks aren't absolute. They can be improved and sometimes a Quirk may be more than it seems. This was all described in the early chapters, as a way to explain why costume changes were a thing. -
For those going "asspull", go to the link below. It's from volume 19, released over a year ago (spoilers, obviously):
! What's the internal consistency of the story?
! We know Quirks aren't absolute. They can be improved and sometimes a Quirk may be more than it seems. This was all described in the early chapters, as a way to explain why costume changes were a thing.! Well for me the Internal Consistency was that Quirk's could not be..evolved(for lack of a better term). You had to deal with what you had.
! In this chapter, she went from Just being able to copy bodies, to being able to copy powers. That's an entirely new powerset.
! Anyway, the writer had written himself into a corner with competent antagonist and he just wasn't good enough to write himself out of it and had to resort to plot contrivances to do it.
! Its too bad but its understandable.
! Deku getting more powers is still the shittiest idea ever though. Completely robbed that character of any potential. -
! Well for me the Internal Consistency was that Quirk's could not be..evolved(for lack of a better term). You had to deal with what you had.
! In this chapter, she went from Just being able to copy bodies, to being able to copy powers. That's an entirely new powerset.
! Anyway, the writer had written himself into a corner with competent antagonist and he just wasn't good enough to write himself out of it and had to resort to plot contrivances to do it.
! Its too bad but its understandable.
! Deku getting more powers is still the shittiest idea ever though. Completely robbed that character of any potential.! What plot contrivances? Do you know what that means? Or do you just call regular plot developments you don't like that?
! Toga being able to use Quirks is not a "new" powerset. It's a literal evolution of her ability to transform. If she can replicate genetic traits of people, then Quirks should be fair deal, since they're a genetic trait.
! This was in chapter 8. It more or less stated that Quirks can sometimes develop new effects or even have them from the start, but no one was aware of it:
!
! We also have cases of whole new abilities being discovered training one's Quirk. It's the case of Shihai Kuroiro, who originally couldn't move objects he possessed. -
! What plot contrivances? Do you know what that means? Or do you just call regular plot developments you don't like that?
! This was in chapter 8. It more or less stated that Quirks can sometimes develop new effects or even have them from the start, but no one was aware of it:
! https://i.imgur.com/KdT5R5I.jpg! Eh its fine.
! I remember that chapter. I also remember Red Riots "evolution" which felt more natural.
! Here, she basically developed a new power. And I don't believe that a villain would not have tried to copy Quirks before now. So to me this is not a case of "oh I thought my Quirk just blah blah blah"
! She would have tested to see if she could copy people's quirk before this fight.
! Anyway I guess my main complaint is in the execution. I actually don't care whether she can copy quirks. I just care that it happened in a convenient manner so that she could escape from an impossible situation. Especially after the antagonists had been competent enough to account for her quirk and actively worked to negate it.
! All Might didn't develop a new quirk to beat the first Nomu. He just found a weakness he could exploit and exploited it. I expected something similar here, or some inventive way to use her quirk. But she basically developed new powers, used them better than the character whose quirk she copied and killed everyone.
! Lazy writing. -
! I LOVED this chapter! I mean, sure, Toga's new ability appearing right now was too convenient, but screw it, it was just a small portion of the chapter. I really like the take on how growing up with a quirk affects the person's personality, particularly when it is not a socially accepted one.
! But back to Toga using Ochako powers, I think it would be cooler if she killed those people by letting them float until they died out of air. Still, quite smart of Horikoshi to use Toga to show how Ochako's ability could be used on a more aggressive way (since Ochako herself being a hero will never use it like that). -
! But she basically developed new powers, used them better than the character whose quirk she copied and killed everyone.
! Lazy writing.! She always had this ability though, it wasn't newly developed in this fight.
It's right there on Horikoshi's notes for Toga's character page that she can use the quirk of whomever she copies.
If there's a handicap it seems to be a need to fully understand how to activate the person's quirk. Toga said that she watched the way Ochako used her ability.
It makes me think about how Momo can only produce items for which she understands the molecular structure. -
! Eh its fine.
! I remember that chapter. I also remember Red Riots "evolution" which felt more natural.
! Here, she basically developed a new power. And I don't believe that a villain would not have tried to copy Quirks before now. So to me this is not a case of "oh I thought my Quirk just blah blah blah"
! She would have tested to see if she could copy people's quirk before this fight.
! Anyway I guess my main complaint is in the execution. I actually don't care whether she can copy quirks. I just care that it happened in a convenient manner so that she could escape from an impossible situation. Especially after the antagonists had been competent enough to account for her quirk and actively worked to negate it.
! All Might didn't develop a new quirk to beat the first Nomu. He just found a weakness he could exploit and exploited it. I expected something similar here, or some inventive way to use her quirk. But she basically developed new powers, used them better than the character whose quirk she copied and killed everyone.
! Lazy writing.! Meh. I'm very fine with what happened, since the "convenient" power served to give more insight into Toga's mind. It complemented her development of wanting to be even more like the real thing.
! Just like how the point of the All Might vs. Nomu fight was not "exploiting weaknesses" or some other thing like that, it was about one's going over their limits. The fight complements the development and vice-versa.
! You could have her outwiting and then killing Chitose with transforming shenanigans, but that wouldn't really show anything new for the character. She has already managed to do that in the Overhaul arc, against a Pro Hero even.
! You call it "lazy", I call it fun. Don't want to see Toga just doing what she does all the time. -
! All Might didn't develop a new quirk to beat the first Nomu. He just found a weakness he could exploit and exploited it. I expected something similar here, or some inventive way to use her quirk. But she basically developed new powers, used them better than the character whose quirk she copied and killed everyone.
! Lazy writing.! Not says that Ochaco couldn't do that because using it to make her opponents fall to their deaths is against her characters. Besides we saw her doing something similar against Bakugo, but not with people. I hardlt would call that Lazy Writting.
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@MDL:
! She always had this ability though, it wasn't newly developed in this fight.
It's right there on Horikoshi's notes for Toga's character page that she can use the quirk of whomever she copies.
If there's a handicap it seems to be a need to fully understand how to activate the person's quirk. Toga said that she watched the way Ochako used her ability.
It makes me think about how Momo can only produce items for which she understands the molecular structure.! Ok if this is true, then I retract my statement.
! Just seemed out of place in this chapter. -
! There are a lot of possible justifications that don't contradict anything in the story:
-She could always use quirks, but most of the time she didn't know how to use them.
-She could always use quirks, but chose not to becase of personal (crazy) reasons or a bad side effect.
-She could always use quirks but hid it from everyone to have it as a trump card.
-She could always use quirks but very weakly. The near death experience powered it up.
-She can only copy quirks that are "always on" like Ochako's, or mutations (since she shapeshifts).
! In this case a couple things happened: She was in a desperate situation where hiding stuff was pointless, was in a near death situation that is known to have effects on quirks, had access to a quirk that was easy to use (it's always on) and she knew how it worked.
! Or maybe her quirk evolved in an instant from changing shape to changing shape + copying quirks, but there are non-dissappointing alternatives. -
! Meh. I'm very fine with what happened, since the "convenient" power served to give more insight into Toga's mind. It complemented her development of wanting to be even more like the real thing.
! Just like how the point of the All Might vs. Nomu fight was not "exploiting weaknesses" or some other thing like that, it was about one's going over their limits. The fight complements the development and vice-versa.
! You could have her outwiting and then killing Chitose with transforming shenanigans, but that wouldn't really show anything new for the character. She has already managed to do that in the Overhaul arc, against a Pro Hero even.
! You call it "lazy", I call it fun. Don't want to see Toga just doing what she does all the time.! Yes. All Might Exploited a weakness in the Nomu by recognizing that it could absorb force but not negate it. So he had to hit with more force than it could absorb. Hence going beyond his limits.
! I was actually not expecting some kind of 5-D chess game from her.
! I just thought the author would do something unique to have her get out of what was seemingly an inescapable situation.
! That way, establishing Toga as an actual force to be reckoned with.
! Here a villain just used a hero's power in a villainous way because she is villain.
! Anyway. The author seems to have some good ideas. The arc was pretty exciting before this chapter, so I hope the other characters don't deus ex machina themselves out of their situations. -
! Well I think more to the fact is she's not taking the blood of people because of their quirks. But to look like people she loves. And honestly with how society is set up here a lot of these kids wouldn't just be using their quirks. So it wouldn't really be a draw for her to try and use something she might not have seen. I think being able to use the powers if she knows how they work is fine. Ochako's technically one of the more simple powers.
! I had figured quirk evolution would happen at some point to keep some characters on par with others. It's not the worst thing in the world. Most of these Shonen series have a second tier power up anyways. I think having it happen on a villain first is better than say one of the hero kids. Deku not counting cause he has a wonky quirk and it was bound to give him more abilities. Toga and Twice are gonna be able to cause all sorts of chaos. -
! There are a lot of possible justifications that don't contradict anything in the story:
-She could always use quirks, but most of the time she didn't know how to use them.
-She could always use quirks, but chose not to becase of personal (crazy) reasons or a bad side effect.
-She could always use quirks but hid it from everyone to have it as a trump card.
-She could always use quirks but very weakly. The near death experience powered it up.
-She can only copy quirks that are "always on" like Ochako's, or mutations (since she shapeshifts).
! In this case a couple things happened: She was in a desperate situation where hiding stuff was pointless, was in a near death situation that is known to have effects on quirks, had access to a quirk that was easy to use (it's always on) and she knew how it worked.
! Or maybe her quirk evolved in an instant from changing shape to changing shape + copying quirks, but there are non-dissappointing alternatives.! This is the best justification in my opinion.
-
! I really like this arc because it fixes one of my pet peeves about adventure stories with fighting. The villains just show up super powerful, but there is never any explanation for how they got that way. We see our heros struggle to gain great power, but comparatively the villains just seemed to be written into the story at a level to challenge them. With this arc we see the villains powering up as well, and I like it.
! As for Toga, I think there is more than enough foreshadowing to accept the development. The timing is a Deus ex Machina, but honestly that is completely the norm in Shonen manga these days. Goku/Ultra Instinct, Sanji/Diable Jambe, Naruto/Tailed Power, Ichigo/Hollow Mask, Shaman King/Resurrection, Black Clover/New Spell, etc. This time it just so happens to be an evil character, and honestly that is not without precedent either. Many Shonen villains get a power ups in the middle of a fight that saves them in a critical situation and continues the fight. You could even go a step further and say that because she is still growing as a teenager, it makes some sense that her quirk could still grow. -
Firstly are you guys for real
! The problem is not the inconsistency of whether quirks can evolve or not.
The problem is the execution and throwing away consistency for flashiness. It's a shounen thing but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.
Like why the heck do we need so many chapters for the students over at UA to train and think hard about how to fully utilize their powers(within the limits of said power) or how to work around with gadgets and team composition if all we need is have the narrative do a "quirk evolution" whenever it deems fit?
! Seriously, why is one piece's awakening even in this discussion. You don't have every single devil fruit user "awaken" when they feel like they are in a corner, it's a specifically rare ability given to upper tiers.
! Toga is not an upper tier, this "unlocked power" had no training whatsoever or any effort put into it. She just brutally murdered a couple of quirk soldiers with Ochako's ability just because she "saw it once" and what, am I suppose to suspend my belief that Ochako is that shitty at using her powers? Or that because she's psycho she's actually a prodigy? No fucking way, that wasn't the narrative at all. Face the fact that it was done for shounen flashiness and maybe we can have an actual conversation.
! How are upcoming battles going to be structured now? She can basically be another walking deus ex machina by pulling blood and powers out of her ass.
How am I supposed to believe the characters are going to use their intelligence to outwit one another(like this series has been doing for most of the time) instead of pulling "evolution" or "oh this is a sub-skill that you never knew but it make sense so accept it" .
! What is stopping Toga from robbing the blood bank, watch All Might videos and then proceed to throw demolishing punches?
So hey since Todoroki hasn't fully "developed" his powers yet, it's entirely possible he can freeze time and space because why fucking not.
I'm sure because of a panel and a draft or two, I'm supposed to accept that throughout the entire battles that have been written in the span of this manga, none of the upper tier heroes or lower heroes including our walking encyclopedia protagonist mentioned it before.
! All Might didn't show a single thing regarding evolution when he was near death except that he can punch harder.
But now miss high school student here somehow manage to climb from being a chameleon to having a goddamn sharingan.
! I'm sure Endeavor's evolution is that his flames are somehow of a higher temperature! How convenient! I mean if I look hard enough at the panels I can make out various shades of fire. That's why he wasn't using it when he was dying!
It's almost as if this evolution is not in anyway to write himself out of a situation!
Tell me I'm not supposed to suspense my belief.
It would be sightly more reasonable if this wasn't such a huge jump in her powers.
! It is a dangerous move and a steep climb to do stuff like this.
Unless he is that amazing of an author, I'm looking forward to seeing how this crumbles.
! Also, Deku's 9 powers thing is insurance for the author. Spider man black webs make zero sense and it's not an evolution. It might not be an asspull but it's in zero way an extension of his powers. -
! I really like this arc because it fixes one of my pet peeves about adventure stories with fighting. The villains just show up super powerful, but there is never any explanation for how they got that way. We see our heros struggle to gain great power, but comparatively the villains just seemed to be written into the story at a level to challenge them. With this arc we see the villains powering up as well, and I like it.
! This might well be the main reason I'm fawning over this arc so much.
It feels so ridiculously fresh to give so much focus to the villain's perpsective, getting to see them grow.
I adore that Hori wants to develop both his heroes and his villains, and I love the way he keeps trying to draw grey lines across the way MHA's society works.
MHA handles itself with a lot more nuance than a lot of superhero settings, and I'm eager to see just how far this villain arc goes.
! Also, zeltrax225, it's now been reminded to everyone that she always had this ability. Author said so.
Make of that what you will, but it's the case.
! From looks of it, using the quirk of someone she transforms into burns up the blood quicker, hence her face going half normal.
Kind of like how ssj3 was originally a huge power drain. -
Firstly are you guys for real
! The problem is not the inconsistency of whether quirks can evolve or not.
The problem is the execution and throwing away consistency for flashiness. It's a shounen thing but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.
Like why the heck do we need so many chapters for the students over at UA to train and think hard about how to fully utilize their powers(within the limits of said power) or how to work around with gadgets and team composition if all we need is have the narrative do a "quirk evolution" whenever it deems fit?
! Seriously, why is one piece's awakening even in this discussion. You don't have every single devil fruit user "awaken" when they feel like they are in a corner, it's a specifically rare ability given to upper tiers.
! Toga is not an upper tier, this "unlocked power" had no training whatsoever or any effort put into it. She just brutally murdered a couple of quirk soldiers with Ochako's ability just because she "saw it once" and what, am I suppose to suspend my belief that Ochako is that shitty at using her powers? Or that because she's psycho she's actually a prodigy? No fucking way, that wasn't the narrative at all. Face the fact that it was done for shounen flashiness and maybe we can have an actual conversation.
! How are upcoming battles going to be structured now? She can basically be another walking deus ex machina by pulling blood and powers out of her ass.
How am I supposed to believe the characters are going to use their intelligence to outwit one another(like this series has been doing for most of the time) instead of pulling "evolution" or "oh this is a sub-skill that you never knew but it make sense so accept it" .
! What is stopping Toga from robbing the blood bank, watch All Might videos and then proceed to throw demolishing punches?
So hey since Todoroki hasn't fully "developed" his powers yet, it's entirely possible he can freeze time and space because why fucking not.
I'm sure because of a panel and a draft or two, I'm supposed to accept that throughout the entire battles that have been written in the span of this manga, none of the upper tier heroes or lower heroes including our walking encyclopedia protagonist mentioned it before.
! All Might didn't show a single thing regarding evolution when he was near death except that he can punch harder.
But now miss high school student here somehow manage to climb from being a chameleon to having a goddamn sharingan.
! I'm sure Endeavor's evolution is that his flames are somehow of a higher temperature! How convenient! I mean if I look hard enough at the panels I can make out various shades of fire. That's why he wasn't using it when he was dying!
It's almost as if this evolution is not in anyway to write himself out of a situation!
Tell me I'm not supposed to suspense my belief.
It would be sightly more reasonable if this wasn't such a huge jump in her powers.
! It is a dangerous move and a steep climb to do stuff like this.
Unless he is that amazing of an author, I'm looking forward to seeing how this crumbles.
! Also, Deku's 9 powers thing is insurance for the author. Spider man black webs make zero sense and it's not an evolution. It might not be an asspull but it's in zero way an extension of his powers.! You know, I don't think the evolution is a thing in this case, since Toga denied it.
! It does happen, since Quirk improvement is a thing. This feels more like something Toga always had, but never figured out how to do it since she lacks the natural instinct. -
Well, I'm one of those people who…
! Love Toga's quirk evolution. As people already said, it's been done before. The more you use a quirk, to more likely you'll unlock it's full potential. And, let's not forget about Gigantomachia. The League's been fighting him almost nonstop. That's more than enough "training" for this to happen. Wouldn't be surprised if whole League levels up.
! I love this chapter. I love Toga's backstory. Creepy. Drinking blood with a straw, the faces, her mindset. Good stuff. Not even mad we didn't get more details because you know its coming one day, but we got enough for now. Well, I still want to know how she became part ninja but okay. Kizuki's reasons for using Toga to promo the Liberation Army and show off her journalist skills works. And, we get confirmation the bracelets she and the party leader are wearing are weapons.
! I really felt bad for Toga. I felt bad for crazy ass Toga. Yeah, I like the character but this a new one for me. Another example of someone falling through society's cracks. Now, I really want to know Mr. Compress' story. He can't be hanging around the League for nothing.
! I kinda agree we don't get enough panels showing how high Kizuki and friends were, but we do get a few showing her higher than the surrounding buildings. So, yeah, they dead. Definitely wouldn't call Toga using Uraraka's quirk as mastering it or anything. She just turned it on then off.
! Great chapter. Great fight. More League of Villains please. Hoping for Mr. Compress VS Party Leader next time. -
I believe this chapter can be summarized as: "Everyone's fucking crazy."
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And I fucking love it. :D
-
! Interesting that the fandom seems to be unable to agree on whether or not it was an actual evolution. Not that it's saying much, but I'd certainly prefer it was, otherwise it just invites questions of why we're only just seeing this.
! Either way, I agree with those saying that it honestly doesn't matter if it's a new ability or not, the issue with the execution in how it conveniently only happens now to have her win a fight she wouldn't have otherwise.
! First chapter of the arc I didn't really like. -
I feel like the term "conveniently" can apply to a lot of things.
-
The answer to 'why just now' in stories is usually 'its more dramatic that way'.
-
! This was not really an intense fight to gain a new ability in imo. It didn't feel like a natural evolution of her fight of her getting pushed into a corner and then mastering her abilities. 90% of the battle screentime went to showing her lifestory, so her getting the power feels like the author just gifting it to her. Kirishima and fatgums fight was built up way better. Also straight up copying quirks is a pretty upper tier ability in terms of straight up power, toga is basically budget all for one rn.
! I think this just ties into the authors poor pacing though. It's why Deku just bumps into the primary antagonist of each arc, threats like the yakuza or gentle or LA have little build up before suddenly being major threats in the universe. I don't think this chapter is particularly exceptional in that regard and I just enjoy MHA for what it is. -
! I think that Toga´s quirk is a case of having a quirk, but not fully understanding it, not a mutation or a improved version. I don´t follow Illegals, but I remember that someone said the MC had a similar thing happen to him, with better pacing though. That said, of all quirks, Ochako is the simplest to use and is quite deadly if you don´t care about killing your rivals.
! On the other hand I think that a good limitation for her would be that using quirks makes the consumed blood less efective by a lot margin, someone pointed out that the Ochako´s transformation started to decay rather soon without reason at all, so maybe it´s true. So it would be a less effective quirk in a one vs one battle than quirks like Stain, Monoma or AFO´s -
! Well, if you're gonna have a character use someone else's quirk proficiently, maybe don't have them receive internal organ damage first. That's the sillier part for me. Not that the other one is not cutting corners.
! Why is she even conscious, let alone moving and even running away now.
! This reminds me of Sasuke winning against Deidara. But also a little of Law vs 'Flamingo.
!Regarding her quirk, wasn't she already shown using the one that girl from other school has? During provisional license exams.(Nevermind, just checked. Oh well ^^.) My surprise was less her using Ochako's quirk and more seeing her use it like a boss. Near effortlessly lifting multiple people up, while bleeding internally. -
! I always hae when someone that copies your power is an expert at it for no reason. And it seems to be the case with Toga. She should should not be able to float that much weight.
! The story itself is still engaging but the author is engaging in those broken/easy powerups way earlier than regular shonen and I don't like it. -
! Toga's witnessed Ochako use her powers and it's not like that part's a complex process. The only real thing she needs is stamina and resistance to the accompanying nausea. In that desperation state Toga was in, it's not like that's impossible.
! Toga didn't make herself float or manipulate anything in the air. That's the more complex stuff Ochako has pulled off that would need more practice. -
! I never once considered Ochako's powers to be anything above simple…
Just touch people with your pads and they start floating. Move them as you wish.
Out of the many quirks we know about, this one is on the easy tier.