Oda managed to make the Shichibukai threatening final bosses for almost 10 years after Luffy defeated the first one. I am pretty sure he can handle the threat factor even if Luffy manages to beat Kaido now.
Chapter 923: Emperor Kaidou VS Luffy
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If it was only this short exchange, maybe, but when you couple it with what the narrator said, there might be more to it.
Yeah, I guess it depends on the validity of the translations and one's interpretation of it. It could mean that he has a specific power that he has that makes him invulnerable, or it could be that he's just so powerful. Another thing to consider is whether Luffy's punch to him in dragon form was the cause of him getting out of it, or if he chose to do so for agility's sake.
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This is why I think he has to defeat an admiral in this arc, and that admiral will be Ryokugyu, to help bridge the gap to Kaido.
If Luffy beats Kaido in a team battle, then beating an admiral later in 1v1 would still be impressive.
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If Luffy beats Kaido in a team battle, then beating an admiral later in 1v1 would still be impressive.
Right. If Luffy defeats Kaido on his lonesome, then up until say Blackbeard, no other baddie really should pose a threat to him then. He needs to get to a point where he can fight people like Katakuri without the exhausting G4.
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Wow.. So far in this or previous chapter nothing ever said about why Kaido attack Speed except for he received some report regarding Speed weird behavior during Luffy's side vs Holdem's group. Nothing to do with Luffy wanting revenge or what ever you were claimed to be. Whether Luffy involve or not in saving Tama at the town, Beast Pirate already targeting her before Luffy arrived at Kuri.
And don't forget, Punk Hazard and Dressrossa predated any event in Wano. Luffy already incurred Kaido's wrath since strawhat enter the New World.You just said it. Kaidou beat up speed because of a weird report he got of her basically mutinying. Or do you think there’s gonna be a personal grudge that’s gonna be revealed that Kaidou has against Speed. Anyway just like Kaidou got a report about speed, he also go a report about Luffy beating Holdem and he also had to do something about as welll. Unless you think he didn’t care about the Holdem report but cared about Speed or you think he somehow never got a report about Holdem.
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Or Dogtooth is great at dodging and suck at punching.
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He met the girl when she was a target and has been a target since then. There's no reason he should suddenly be blaming since the person that took care of the girl is the same group that has been targetting her since the start. It could make sense for the poor people village he brought food because they were behaving and Luffy brung them stolen food or even the strawhats that were trying to stay hidden and Luffy made them public. But there's no reason for him to consider he made the girl a target because she was already a target by that group. Several times.
Well the point is Kaidou is there in person because of him so at least Tama wouldn’t have run into a freakin Emperor if Luffy wasn’t messing around
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Y
Well the point is Kaidou is there in person because of him so at least Tama wouldn’t have run into a freakin Emperor if Luffy wasn’t messing aroundI don't mind if a reader blame Luffy. I am saying there's no reason Luffy would put the blame on himself since from what he knows she was already of target of the beast pirate long before they met and has been continuously so.
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@S.C.:
Yeah, there's no way he'll beat Kaido one on one, because who the hell else could match Luffy then until the end of the story? After all, we still have Elbaf, finding the 4th Poneglyph and probably dealing with CP0/Meeting Dragon, as well. Just off the top off my head.
But I do think he will become strong enough to fight really strong people without Gear 4th, at least.
Quick prediction: the 4th Road Poneglyph is probably in the Holy Land, hence why no pirate was able to locate it so far.
Except for Roger of course, and perhaps that explains why Shanks knows the Five Elders, because he went there with his former captain.
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Count me in as someone who doesn't think Luffy will beat Kaido unassisted. But even if he does, that still doesn't mean the other Yonko and even the Admirals will no longer be threats. When Luffy beats Kaido he'll do it by the skin of his teeth; any training he gets will not cause him to have the advantage throughout the final battle. If he barely beats Kaido, then it will take just as much effort to beat the other Yonko at least until he has enough time to develop his technique to become consistently high-level. Beating Kaido just means that he will be locked in the Yonko power struggle for the time being.
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@Kaido:
Count me in as someone who doesn't think Luffy will beat Kaido unassisted. But even if he does, that still doesn't mean the other Yonko and even the Admirals will no longer be threats. When Luffy beats Kaido he'll do it by the skin of his teeth; any training he gets will not cause him to have the advantage throughout the final battle. If he barely beats Kaido, then it will take just as much effort to beat the other Yonko at least until he has enough time to develop his technique to become consistently high-level. Beating Kaido just means that he will be locked in the Yonko power struggle for the time being.
Hey kaido, I saw that you were having some issues visualizing the momentum of kaido's hit in the spoiler thread. It looks to me that kaido clubbed luffy right in the head so any momentum would be the kind of flipping motion vs kaido sending him flying.
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@Long:
Hey kaido, I saw that you were having some issues visualizing the momentum of kaido's hit in the spoiler thread. It looks to me that kaido clubbed luffy right in the head so any momentum would be the kind of flipping motion vs kaido sending him flying.
What? I never posted in the spoiler thread
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This is why I think he has to defeat an admiral in this arc, and that admiral will be Ryokugyu, to help bridge the gap to Kaido.
Also I'm one of those who thinks Shanks is absurdly strong, so he could still pose quite a threat to Luffy after Kaido.
No I actually think Shanks is the strongest character and when BB kills him will receive WSM title.
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@Kaido:
What? I never posted in the spoiler thread
Oh…I think I saw someone with an avatar that used to look like your old one. My bad.
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I don't mind if a reader blame Luffy. I am saying there's no reason Luffy would put the blame on himself since from what he knows she was already of target of the beast pirate long before they met and has been continuously so.
Yeah well before Luffy interfered it was much less likely that she would end up a bloodied mess in a wasteland of wild animals
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When Roger entrusted Garp with Ace, Roger said that him and Garp almost killed each other many times.
Yeah like how Buggy also almost killed Luffy at Logue town… It’s very hard to use such statements since One Piece has ALOT of circumstantial situations... Like the Edd war battle... You would walk away from that saying Roger can take A full armada is you ignore the actual circumstance... The closest of these backward statements to actually indicate something is Shanks and Mihawk used to have “legendary battles” in the past but even then people like bringing up that maybe one guy was holding back or something so once again we need way better context to decide what’s what
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I do want to make it clear I absolutely 200% think Luffy is doing this with at the bare minimum Law and Kidd, paralleling that panel in Sabaody and have thought this for a while. I still really don't think that's enough though, given that Kidd probably got the exact same treatment as Luffy here. Oh and also something I just thought of. We've already seen 3 Supernovas against Kaido, at his introduction. What did that amount to? Kidd: "Guggghhhhgghghg… bleeds out profusely" Hawkins: "I will serve under you, Master Kaido!" Apoo: "Apapapapa! Check it out, General Kaidou! Listen to this dope ass beat while you drink your sake, sir!"
Basically they either got devastated or started serving under him. Now Luffy obviously is in a different league of "Supernova", but even STILL I don't think that's enough. Even with Luffy getting an upgrade and training, I STILL don't think that's enough. I think a lot of the army they're going to gather is going to be focused on taking down this behemoth. Only with upgraded Luffy, Law, Kidd, maybe even more Supernovas, some of Kaido's own tamed army against him, and the gathered allies through Wano country do I believe this thing can be finally brought to its knees.
I still think there will be admiral involvement in this arc, and I hope one is actually taken down. Ryo preferably.
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I still think there will be admiral involvement in this arc, and I hope one is actually taken down. Ryo preferably.
Fujitora is tiger, tiger and dragon drawing from zou. He is also the one with the mission to capture luffy and law and can't step on any marien base until he does it. He is also good marine and he will for sure team up with lufffy against kaidou. Fujitora also has samurai outfit like guys from wano.
With him at rêverie it looked like he has no way to get to wano. But then oda tells us the rêverie lasts 7 days and that fire festival is in 2 weeks. So fujitora has 1 week to go from marijois to wano.
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Wasn't yellow crazy guy volunteering to go to Wano before?
If they are gonna stuff an admiral in there i'd prefer one with some build-up
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@uniaka:
Fujitora is tiger, tiger and dragon drawing from zou. He is also the one with the mission to capture luffy and law and can't step on any marien base until he does it. He is also good marine and he will for sure team up with lufffy against kaidou. Fujitora also has samurai outfit like guys from wano.
With him at rêverie it looked like he has no way to get to wano. But then oda tells us the rêverie lasts 7 days and that fire festival is in 2 weeks. So fujitora has 1 week to go from marijois to wano.
I do definitely acknowledge the even-more-Japanese-than-usual theme from Fujitora. So he is fairly likely. I happen to think there's a different meaning behind that dragon and tiger color spread (I ain't gonna go into it, it's a decently out there theory). But yeah the Tiger Vs Dragon mythology does give him a shot to show up. However,
Wasn't yellow crazy guy volunteering to go to Wano before?
If they are gonna stuff an admiral in there i'd prefer one with some build-up
As wolfwood points out Kizaru is foreshadowed to go too. Honestly there's a case for all three going? I really am not sure how it'll play out, but at least one is showing up. I want to say "If 3 admirals show up, won't the Final War not be able to top this?" And then I realize, oh yeah, world-wide frenzy with ancient weapons, the Final War will easily surpass this lol.
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I don't see kizaru in wano, his build up is as villain for the supernovas, not ally. Since all got away from him the first time, I don't think he would want that again. I would rather imagine kizaru and kaidou team up on luffy then kizaru and luffy on kaidou. And if BM also shows up then you have 3 major villains against luffy in the same arc. When 1 alone is enough to 1 shot luffy…
And kaidou already proof to be more then enough to handle villain this arc. This would be like smoker and luffy vs crocodile in alabasta.
The only way fujitora gets away without capturing luffy and law if he brings some beast pirates for akainu instead.
He can even bring kaidou himself, since marines want them captured dead or alive.Akainu:'' I told you not to come here until you bring straw hat and law...''
Fujitora: '' How about kaidou instead … drops dead body on the floor'' -
@uniaka:
Zoro lost to the yeti cool Brothers, he is in no position to tell luffy anything.
It wasn't about losing it was about being careless
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It wasn't about losing it was about being careless
Wano zoro looks careless. Got himself wanted in wano and not following kinemon's plan since he should still be in capital, eating poison food for days, now gone in some adventure solo.
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As wolfwood points out Kizaru is foreshadowed to go too. Honestly there's a case for all three going? I really am not sure how it'll play out, but at least one is showing up. I want to say "If 3 admirals show up, won't the Final War not be able to top this?" And then I realize, oh yeah, world-wide frenzy with ancient weapons, the Final War will easily surpass this lol.
We don't know exactly how strong admirals are but there are people like Shutenmaru who can carve through a 1billion bounty as if it was nothing in this country…. I mean, it seems very optimistic to think that one single admiral could handle anything
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We don't know exactly how strong admirals are but there are people like Shutenmaru who can carve through a 1billion bounty as if it was nothing in this country…. I mean, it seems very optimistic to think that one single admiral could handle anything
That's overstating it. Shutenmaru seems to be strong yes. And his weapon and technique are probably above Jack's. But Jack didn't even flinch in that exchange and he also didn't even use his ability. If that fight went on, I think Shutenmaru would start looking less and less impressive with time.
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Speaking of Jack the biggest hype build up for Kaido in my eyes comes from how a dude who gladly fights entire nations, literally mountain sized elephants, admirals, warlords and whatever else gets in front of him without a care is visibly freaked out over possibly angering him.
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Speaking of Jack the biggest hype build up for Kaido in my eyes comes from how a dude who gladly gets beaten by entire nations, literally mountain sized elephants, admirals, warlords and whatever else gets in front of him
I think you misspoke there, I took the liberty of correcting it.
S/
As imposing as Jack is, the only time he succeeded at something on his own merit was when he resorted to Caesars chemical weaponry. Any other time, his hype is deflated rather quickly. Just look at the last few chapters where the threat of summoning Jack is invoked for dramatic effect - and then the first thing that happens when he shows up is being used to hype a completely new character. Its like if Kizaru had arrived at Sabaody, only to immediately get his nose broken by some rando local pirate.
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But that's just Oda throwing a curveball.
That or Jack is simply Kaido's Sanji. Or Smoothie, works both ways.
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That's overstating it. Shutenmaru seems to be strong yes. And his weapon and technique are probably above Jack's. But Jack didn't even flinch in that exchange and he also didn't even use his ability. If that fight went on, I think Shutenmaru would start looking less and less impressive with time.
Jack was clearly sweating and looking distressed though, and was shown getting patched up afterwards whereas Shutenmaru was neither of those things. And Shutenmaru was the one getting the big "I CUT YOU!" panel. In terms of how the brief scuffle was framed, it was clearly to hype up Shutenmaru.
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@Daz:
Jack was clearly sweating and looking distressed though, and was shown getting patched up afterwards whereas Shutenmaru was neither of those things. And Shutenmaru was the one getting the big "I CUT YOU!" panel. In terms of how the brief scuffle was framed, it was clearly to hype up Shutenmaru.
Well of course it was. I'm just taking everything into consideration. Jack's position, fact he continued fighting right away, fact he didn't use his ability that increases his physical capabilities, possibility that he's an awakened zoan user, which would boost his stats a lot, fact Shutenmaru is an old man past his prime…
The one who has a starting upper hand in a fight in OP isn't always the stronger one. We've had it in this very chapter, and in plenty occasions in the past.
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Jack is certainly making Inuarashi and Nekomamushi looks bad. Not a single one of them could defeat him in less than 12 hours.
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But that's just Oda throwing a curveball.
That or Jack is simply Kaido's Sanji. Or Smoothie, works both ways.
Those curveballs have been thrown with every single jack appearance though.
When he targets Doflamingos prison ship, he gets trounced to the point of being declared dead.
When he gets introduced properly at Zou, the massiveness of his Mammoth form is used to established how cool dogking/catking are, who both get to casually block/flip him in cool spreads. Jack only gets to damage them after underhandedly poisoning/restraining them.
When he confronts Zuneisha, he is a punchline that established the might of the Zuneisha/Momonosuke combo.
Oda might still get a good fight out of Jack down the line, but the pattern of defeat isn't exactly hyping me for that. Its the same problem facing Burgess.
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Jack is certainly making Inuarashi and Nekomamushi looks bad. Not a single one of them could defeat him in less than 12 hours.
Thats informed impressiveness though. The same kind that established Burgess' being fearsome by having him defeat a Coliseum block offscreen, which is not as effective as what is actually shown on-paper and how that is framed. Are there any actual, drawn, scenes that chiefly frame Jack as fearsome in relation to his opponents? It always seem to be the other way around. Jack is a vector to make other characters get big "They are strong!!" scenes.
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@Daz:
Those curveballs have been thrown with every single jack appearance though.
When he targets Doflamingos prison ship, he gets trounced to the point of being declared dead.
When he gets introduced properly at Zou, the massiveness of his Mammoth form is used to established how cool dogking/catking are, who both get to casually block/flip him in cool spreads. Jack only gets to damage them after underhandedly poisoning/restraining them.
When he confronts Zuneisha, he is a punchline that established the might of the Zuneisha/Momonosuke combo.
Oda might still get a good fight out of Jack down the line, but the pattern of defeat isn't exactly hyping me for that. Its the same problem facing Burgess.
Really can't disagree with any of that. And really have to wonder why exactly Oda is setting him to fail in everything he tries doing, lol.
Unless he's drawing parallels with his boss, who has a history of failing but has still risen to the top. Defeated 7 times, captured 18, was it?
Maybe being reckless, failing and getting back up is the crew's theme or something. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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@Daz:
I think you misspoke there, I took the liberty of correcting it.
S/
As imposing as Jack is, the only time he succeeded at something on his own merit was when he resorted to Caesars chemical weaponry. Any other time, his hype is deflated rather quickly. Just look at the last few chapters where the threat of summoning Jack is invoked for dramatic effect - and then the first thing that happens when he shows up is being used to hype a completely new character. Its like if Kizaru had arrived at Sabaody, only to immediately get his nose broken by some rando local pirate.
I was thinking mainly about how this kind of man with no fear and no sense of restraint shows both in front of someone. Like i'll take on Garp and Sengoku and a fleet of marines but i'm not stupid enough to tackle THIS guy
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Hahahaha this is fantastic
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The thing with Jack is he's barely recovering from the days of uninterrupted fights he's been in. His very short fight against Shuntemaru actually managed to hype one of them without diminishing the other… for once.
@uniaka:
Wano zoro looks careless. Got himself wanted in wano and not following kinemon's plan since he should still be in capital, eating poison food for days, now gone in some adventure solo.
Yeah, I guess that's just typical goofy One Piece.
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And when I was complaining how it makes no sense for our team to just gloss over the fact Zoro has wandered off again, I was being too critical. Zoro is like that, after all.
Well at least Luffy wasn't swallowed by another big snake again.
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I wonder if what happened will leave Oda with option to skip a bit of time of waiting for fire festival by showing us Reverie.
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Jack did fail a little too much, now I'm sure dogstorm can solo him in sulong mode. Both dogstorm and catviper in sulong mode would be overkill.
But I would not compare him with sanji since we saw why oda made him look bad in battle, because he wanted to turn him into super sentai so had to show why he needs to get power up. Smoothie I'm sure is saved for zoro in Elbaf, reason oda didn't want to show much from her.
@Razh:And I'm sure their fight will make an awesome single page.
She is Worth almost 1 billion, can turn into giant, who knows what is the limit of her size, maybe san juan size. Has huge air slashes like zoro and mihawk, her slashes suck the liquid out of someone, so if the sword touches zoro he will be just like luffy when crocodile sucked all the water out of him. Imagine if it's also for the ranged slashes. Could also be that the more liquid she gets from others the stronger she gets too or gets more powers. Also strategist, she almost captured SHs at the end, forgot how they got away.
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@uniaka:
Smoothie I'm sure is saved for zoro in Elbaf, reason oda didn't want to show much from her.
And I'm sure their fight will make an awesome single page.
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Well i reckon a Don Kreig win is still a win.
He still has his wooly mammoth limbs as opposed to his opponents.
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That's overstating it. Shutenmaru seems to be strong yes. And his weapon and technique are probably above Jack's. But Jack didn't even flinch in that exchange and he also didn't even use his ability. If that fight went on, I think Shutenmaru would start looking less and less impressive with time.
It's not only about Shutenmaru. One single admiral is simply not enough when there is Luffy, Shutenmaru, Queen, King, Jack, Kaido, Bigmom, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Bigmom, Katakuri, Cracker, Smoothie and the two other strong samurais who worked under Oden. And possibly the Whitebeard pirates
As I see it, the Navy is too weak to get in this arc. But yeah, somehow they'll manage to send a few persons
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It's not only about Shutenmaru. One single admiral is simply not enough when there is Luffy, Shutenmaru, Queen, King, Jack, Kaido, Bigmom, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Bigmom, Katakuri, Cracker, Smoothie and the two other strong samurais who worked under Oden. And possibly the Whitebeard pirates
As I see it, the Navy is too weak to get in this arc. But yeah, somehow they'll manage to send a few persons
I was only addressing that fight, anyway.
But seeing you numbering all those players makes me concerned about this arc's fluidity. If it's not gonna be handled drastically better than Dressrosa and Totland, I don't have much hope.
There's also Drake's sub plot and possibly Weeble and Blackbeard pirates involvement. I mention Drake because he might still be an agent for marines/WG. I had suspicions even before it was confirmed to us with Rocinante that marines do have spies among pirates.
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Anyway, if luffy is really KO, then jimbe did better with BM. Even Chopper blocked her attack, yet luffy 1 hit ko? If yonkous are balanced, then jimbe> luffy. She was in her tantrum, but kaidou is also drunk.
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@uniaka:
Even Chopper blocked her attack
It wasn't a named attack, it was literally just Big Mom trying to swat down Nami like a fly.
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In all those situations Luffy behave cockily and survived mostly because of his extreme luck and his plot armor. This time won't be any different.
Except this time it seems he needs a massive power up
Don't forget about his effort, strenght and convinction.
Anyway, if you want to see it as luck and plot armor, it's fine. The important thing is that you know that and you're not starting to have double standards after the time skip. Just know what you're reading.
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@uniaka:
Anyway, if luffy is really KO, then jimbe did better with BM. Even Chopper blocked her attack, yet luffy 1 hit ko? If yonkous are balanced, then jimbe> luffy. She was in her tantrum, but kaidou is also drunk.
The ol Goombah has much more cushion on him.
Nothing on the bone Luffy can't compete with the fatty tuna.
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I knew Luffy would lose but holy shit! :blink:
I was not expecting it to be that brutal a beat down
training arc?
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One thing strikes me as odd, in retrospect.
That the fact Kaido can turn into a dragon wasn't important enough to mention in Kanjuro's backstory. Seems like a pretty important detail, something that shouldn't be treated as a footnote. I can't see how it would be possible for Kaido to never have turned into a dragon in entire Oden's flashback, but that remains to be seen. You'd really think it would be one of the main parts Kanjuro would mention, considering the hate he has shown towards dragons before and considering they are planning to defeat that big ass dragon.
Just a nitpick.:happy:
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Thinking back on what Zoro said to Luffy when he almost lost to Caesar, I wonder what Zoro would say if he saw Luffy right now. I vaguely remember him saying he would leave if Luffy lost again.
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I love the fact it was a blunt object that appears to have hit him with no Haki. That further highlights the strength gap because everyone knows blunt attacks are useless against Luffy.Starting near the end of that fight as a search reference, when exactly was this? I searched for the moment that I linked so that I could read from then to the arrival at Dressrossa and never once bore witness to Zoro getting uncharacteristically pissy -quite the doubtful psudo-quote.
Also, a spiked club has spikes; Luffy was poked with spikes just like Don Krieg's cape.
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One thing strikes me as odd, in retrospect.
That the fact Kaido can turn into a dragon wasn't important enough to mention in Kanjuro's backstory.
Honestly, nobody in the OP universe should need to be told what the yonko's powers are. This should be common knowledge for everyone.