Gosh, that final page with Nami … "Do you want to be my slave or do you want to die?" including that face... That page cracked me hard. Great chapter! > SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING There is clearly a difference between using one's own power or some "natural phenomenon". You saw exactly how they all were almost wetting their pants. Even though, they (more or less) came up with a plan; using nature against BM. They basically made a giant taser and had "free way" to run.
Chapter 890: Big Mom on Top of the Ship
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@Joy:
SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING
Eeehhh..Jimbei? They are not alone on the Sunny.
You are really not getting the point of his presence, authority and impact on the rest of the crew? Pathetic..
A few chapters ago it was him who stayed focus and kept the team together.
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@Joy:
SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING
But they couldn't deal with her. Nami dealt with Zeus and was powerless to stop Big Mom from smashing her into the ground. The only thing Chopper did was block one of Big Mom's attacks that was aimed for Nami.
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Also, Nami/Chopper/Usopp are generally scared of every main villain of the arc. :P
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A Shichibukai's ultimate attack pushing off a weakened Yonko with no Haki off a ship for a few moments, with 0 long term damage. There is nothing illogical about that. We've seen that Shichibukai can do at least do something against Top Tiers.
Even the weakest ever Shichibukai, who tricked the WG into making them think he was strong, has enough hax to withstand a WSS' attacks.
Nami and Brook attacked Zeus, NOT Big Mom. It was made clear Brook can't even scratch Big Mom. Their goal was Zeus from the start. With 0 Observation Haki, weakened, a distraction, and Brook being a speed swordsman, him slicing Zeus up, and Nami using that to her advantage is perfectly logical. If you think Brook + Nami with natural advantages can't do something against 1 Homie please re-evaluate your life.
Big Mom is not even trying to actively kill them. Only if they get in her way.
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@Joy:
Lmao. It's not my own fantasies as you say. Big Mom isn't living to the the standards Oda presented about the Yonko. When WB deals with VAs like they are some ants, when he tilts MF, when he severely injuries Akainu and when he beats Teach with half his face and a huge hole in his chest, while Kaido falls from the heavens and fodderizes 3 supernova crews like nothing, well yeah I'm going to call bullshit on Big Mom completely failing to do anything against Nami, Chopper and Brook 3 fucking times.
Never pretended it is. Doesn't mean it was this inconsistent when it came to powers.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING
Well shit you can't be this.. Nevermind I'll get banned if I insult you
I am suggesting that Oda managed to make every antagonist look threatening. Why ? Because he had them succeed in some things. Big Mom on the other hand has failed each and every single time. That's a difference in portrayal. Those looked threatening and were and Big Mom simply ins't threatening anymore after all the failures she's been handed in this arc.
Yes Nami, Chopper, Brook and Jimbei with fighting style advantages, sea water nearby and Big Mom starved to levels she hasn't been at in years are strong enough to do something. And ofc BM is gonna fail, she's facing the main characters. If she succeeds there'd be no story. Guess what else? Kaido is going to fail too against the SH. The thing is that she didn't have many appearances before WCI arc. What did you expect?
It's like people read this manga just to prove their tier lists/arena/battledome predictions smh.
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@Count:
So the distance between Carmel and the fire can be equated to the distance between the ground and the sky? Is that correct?
Nobody's equating the distance. Just that if it can be projected over a distance having her soul reach the clouds isn't outside the realm of possibility. Especially when you consider she can ride prometheus. The nitpick is just silly.
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@Count:
So the distance between Carmel and the fire can be equated to the distance between the ground and the sky? Is that correct? I guess Luffy can infinitely stretch then. Don't see why he needed a boat to get to Skypiea when he could have supposedly stretched his arms to reach the island clouds, going by your logic.
Fire created a sun. Smoke create a cloud. Seems easy enough. Napoleon is the truly weird one.
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Thing is, I understand why some fans are disappointed but there's not much that could have been done. Everything about the strawhats taking down Zeus makes absolute sense. Big Mom not stomping the strawhats makes absolute sense. There's a myriad of reasons that these events took place; and they are all legit reasons. However, impression-wise strawhat-hype did come at the expense of Big Mom's reputation and that's disappointing to see.
There's a possibility that if BM is not taken down in this arc she will get off-panelled taken down by BB or CP-0 (which is a major disservice to any major villain and not jus a Yonko). Another possibility is that BM will like the cake so so much that the BM pirates become begrudgingly indebted to the strawhats (Perospero is probably going to be super happy not to be killed if the cake is that good).
At the moment, we don't know what Oda plans with Big Mom and if she gets ~defeated~ without the usual 'Luffy punch and kick' I will be majorly disappointed. The punch doesn't have to be this arc because that was never the goal but if the strawhats and BMP 'smooth' things over in this arc, thus removing any future potential conflict I'd hate it.
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@Joy:
SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING
Good God. It's like you didn't even read the chapter. Them dealing with her has nothing to do with "strength" they just happen to have some of the right abilities to counter hers.
Power lvls don't always determine the outcomes of fights. One Piece fights have always been dynamic in that sense.
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"Vicotry and fighting strength aren't the same thing",
"anyone can lose if caught off guard",
"you never know how 2 abilities will interact".Oda's been making this very clear. You just haven't been paying attention.
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@Joy:
The whole forum has jumped on me because I don't suck Oda's dick with this kind of writing
Nobody's sucking Oda's dick. Theres nothing wrong with the writing here. You've just been factually incorrect with every claim you've made. Thats what people have a problem with.
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Some people keep ragging on Joy Boy like he's wrong lol.
He is. It'd be one thing if he had a point. But he doesn't.
Big Mom is a yonkz and she's being portrayed as a very strong Shishibukai at best.
This is objectively false.
Even Doffy had a more badass display,
A character's strength has nothing to do with how badass they are.
I would say Katakuri is the best portrayed badass even if he gets defeated by Luffy.
This is all you people really care about isn't it? You seem to bring it up a lot.
Cracker (tbh) was fodder.
Also objectively false. Cracker was stronger than his biscuits. He had Haki like Luffy had never come across before and nearly chopped Luffy's arm off in G4. Something an Awakened Doffy couldn't do even once. Thats not a fodder lvl opponent.
For everyone trying to defend Big Mom after falling on her face from Nami's attack though,
Once again, that wasn't Nami's attack. You've been corrected on this more than once now and you're still repeating yourself.
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@Shobu:
The chap was a paramount shit storywise-ly, buuuut….!!!!
Or maybe the story gives a sh** about all you juvenile poser forum-twats, wanking 24/7, pretending to be a "cool" character (randomly chosen)! The story moves on, and guess what, it IS a story, and not a still, with characters DOING stuff, with ups and downs, weaknesses and strengths!
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Nobody's equating the distance. Just that if it can be projected over a distance having her soul reach the clouds isn't outside the realm of possibility. Especially when you consider she can ride prometheus. The nitpick is just silly.
It's totally possible, but it's pure conjecture. Her riding Prometheus is a good point I never considered though.
Fire created a sun. Smoke create a cloud. Seems easy enough. Napoleon is the truly weird one.
It does make some sense. I can totally buy it. Still hoping for a direct confirmation though. I want answers for both of them. And now I wish that Ruin's comment about the Homies being related to food came true because it would make them sync much more with Big Mom's personality and theme.
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@Joy:
Lmao. It's not my own fantasies as you say. Big Mom isn't living to the the standards Oda presented about the Yonko.
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Big Mom on the other hand has failed each and every single time. That's a difference in portrayal. Those looked threatening and were and Big Mom simply ins't threatening anymore after all the failures she's been handed in this arc.
^Pretty much this.
Nobody is claiming Big Mom is weak, but I can't remember a villain who was made this big a fool of since maybe Foxy of the Foxy Pirates or Oars of Thriller Bark.
To everyone who is seeing this as a credit to Chopper, Nami, Brooke growing strength over the last two arcs, that is awesome too. I guess you could argue they were this good since Fishman Island since everybody held their ground at fishman.
Also it is a good point that BM was drenched in salt water (anti devil fruit and highly conductive to electricity) before she got zapped.
I guess Oda has nerfed her as much as possible with the hunger/lost consciousness thing.
WB was nerfed too at Marine Ford. All people said was he is near death and in poor health. Maybe we will get our first full health Yonko in WanoAs far as a Yonko goes, it would have been even more badass to see Chopper severely damaged even after using defense mode. For her to have her observation haki stop brooke and notice the clouds Nami was sending out to zeus. And for her to maybe step back from Jimbeis attack, but to be blown away?
I see the argument on both sides and people can say what they will idrc but the fact is it's a poor showing for Big Mom so far this arc and hopefully she saves face in the coming chapters.
Even though BM already said it was a Homie made out of her soul?
Yes. very simple logic man. She imbeded her devil fruit hat/sword with her soul.
I also really like the Shape shifting metal idea by somebody else.
And HAVE YOU FORGOT THAT NAMI WAS THERE TO SOFT THE BISCUITS! Do you think Luffy could had beaten Cracker alone?
Yea Nami softened the buscuits but the man behind the biscuits was a weakling. Cracker's greatest strengths were his armament haki (which no doubt was the most phenomenal seen so far) and his ability to spam making biscuit soldiers.
When Luffy landed one hit (with his gut, not even a real punch) Cracker was ko. So yea if Luffy is able to get to the actual Cracker he could win. I think this is super off topic for this chapter tho.
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^Pretty much this.
Nobody is claiming Big Mom is weak, but I can't remember a villain who was made this big a fool of since maybe Foxy of the Foxy Pirates or Oars of Thriller Bark.
To everyone who is seeing this as a credit to Chopper, Nami, Brooke growing strength over the last two arcs, that is awesome too. I guess you could argue they were this good since Fishman Island since everybody held their ground at fishman.
Also it is a good point that BM was drenched in salt water (anti devil fruit and highly conductive to electricity) before she got zapped.
I guess Oda has nerfed her as much as possible with the hunger/lost consciousness thing.
WB was nerfed too at Marine Ford. All people said was he is near death and in poor health. Maybe we will get our first full health Yonko in WanoAs far as a Yonko goes, it would have been even more badass to see Chopper severely damaged even after using defense mode. For her to have her observation haki stop brooke and notice the clouds Nami was sending out to zeus. And for her to maybe step back from Jimbeis attack, but to be blown away?
I see the argument on both sides and people can say what they will idrc but the fact is it's a poor showing for Big Mom so far this arc and hopefully she saves face in the coming chapters.
Give it time, my friend. If Oda sets up the cake delivery effectively then the Straw Hats will soon be at the end of their rope.
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I sort of see where the negative arguments are coming from though some are way too extreme.
We already know what the outcome is going to be between BM, her crew (Perospero, Daifuku, etc), and the small SH group. Nobody is getting killed and the ship will be relatively fine. For the big payoff that will happen soon, it seems like Oda wants to make the situation as desperate as possible, or else why would he include this and skip over the Luffy Nuts escapade? At this point, I have to agree that the stalling BM has been beat like an almost dead horse. We understand that Jinbe and co aren't going to make much progress escaping and BM (most likely) isn't going to do anything more ridiculous than she already has at this point. This chapter, while entertaining, just tread water instead of living up to the great cliffhanger from the last. In hindsight, what could we have expected?
If we got even more repetition than we already have, I think it would make the arc weaker especially on a re-read.
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My biggest problem regarding camaraderie is that until now we didn't have any enemy group which came even remotely close to the Strawhats. The Big Mom Pirates are as dysfunctional as a group as it's possible. Sure, their captain is a five year old womanchild, but I'd expected that at least the rest of the organisation would work together way better. And while the Doflamingo Pirates weren't as dysfunctional, they however weren't anything special either. I don't want to see the Strawhats beating some at best decent teamwork with their good camaraderie. I want to see them beat some world class teamwork with their absolutely awesome and beyond anything camaraderie.
Unfortunately in that regard I'm not too optimistic for the Beast Pirates or the Blackbeard Pirates. Sadly… As the former mostly seem to rely on brute strength whereas the latter solely rely on fate without any regards of giving any shit if a comrade doesn't live up due to their fate.
Unfortunately, I would say this extends to Oda's disinterest in characterizing his villains much beyond the depth of most Disney villains. That is, just scummy power mongers. Not that the villains don't often have interesting origins for being the way they are, like Lucci being raised as an assassin and Hody's exposure to racism. Or intriguing goals like Crocodile seeking Poneglyphs to find Pluton or Enel wanting to go to the moon because of a god complex. But when it comes to their present time personality and motives, they just do evil stuff and cackle to fulfill whatever arbitrary goals they have. Any actual depth is barely explored. Crocodile and Enel were great antagonists, but not so much great characters when you try to analyze their character traits on paper in a way that's more specific than vague general terms such as being "selfish", "homicidal", "manipulative", and "cowardly".
That's why we're hardly ever going to see any compelling villain camaraderie happen because it requires putting more thought into a formula of coming up with a oppressive douchebag narcissist of the week that needs their teeth kicked in. Despite how awful Naruto turned out as a series, if there's Kishimoto tried to do way more than Oda has, it's giving unique characterization and depth to his villains that boils down to something more than merely being evil for the sake of evil.
The only villain I would say that Oda's given real depth to thus far, excluding Magellan and maybe Blackbeard, is Doflamingo. For all his faults, stuff like his backstory, relationship with Rosinante, obsession with nobility, his speeches, and his smug hyena-esque nature stand out. He even had a bit of perverse camaraderie during moments like Monet's sacrifice, Doflamingo's farewell to Vergo, and Baby-5 shooting a minion who laughed at Pica's voice. But we still didn't see any legitimate bonds between the Donquixote Pirates, which admittedly makes sense since they only want to support their king as expendable servants.
I remember the days when I was expecting Big Mom to be this compelling morally gray corrupt businesswoman character who prides mutual selfishness above anything else with her peers and enemies, which would be a parallel to Luffy's own selfless adherence to selfishness in how he inspires others. That all fell apart the moment Pudding revealed the Vinsmoke assassination plot because now Big Mom is just a greedy two-bit backstabbing liar like Arlong was. Along with Jinbe revealing that she rigs the lifespan roulette to kill anybody who spins it. Oh yeah, I just remembered how we don't even know why exactly she wants the clone tech or how she can only get it by killing the Vinsmokes instead of letting the alliance go as planned besides a vague explanation going along the lines of "MOAH POWEH".
Linlin still has more depth than the average One Piece villain in how she believes her actions will create peace and how she used to be a naive child instead of being "born evil" like Doflamingo, and the hunger pang cravings give her a kooky objective. But she is still mainly a typical oppressive One Piece villain that sees her crewmates and allies only as disposable tools instead of valuable allies to get what she wants, and has no real respect for her rivals/enemies. Although I do expect the ending of this arc to end with her appreciating her family more. All of that family drama has to payoff somehow if Big Mom is not going down this arc.
Although I will give Big Mom's crew, not Big Mom herself, camaraderie credit. We should not forget how the Enraged Army ambushed a weakened Nami and Luffy, the planning sessions they had, or how the Big Mom Pirates helped save each other and the townsfolk when Whole Cake Chateau collapsed. Take away how dysfunctional their relationship is with their captain and they have a decent enough showcase of teamwork with reasonable flaws instead of everybody operating solo like every other antagonist crew.
I really, REALLY want Blackbeard to be the first villain to say, "hey, I actually sort of give a damn about my pals if they're in trouble" and have his crew back each other up once or twice. They don't have to love each other to the point of being willing to die for each other, just some sense of at least caring for each other like drinking buddies. I want Blackbeard to also have Luffy's special ability to create allies, but with the twist of forming them out of immoral criminals. And seriously, I would LOVE for Teach to be the very first villain to not underestimate the capabilities of the Straw Hats as just being rookies. He can take them seriously and not hold back like how Doflamingo thought Diamante was enough to eliminate Luffy. But I know it's probably not going to happen. Teach's crew will probably make fun of each other's failures at best, as they have already done. Which will still at least be humorous and slightly family-esque, I guess. But it could be so much more.
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Oda's entire portrayal of Yonkos has never been to portray them as invincible. Whitebeard took a hell of a beating on Marineford. Shanks got his arm bitten off when he rescued Luffy. Kaido has been defeated 7 times, captured a ton, and taken some vicious wounds. Blackbeard got whooped by Sengoku right after he felt himself to be invincible. What matters is that these guys persist like crazy. None of the heroes have been able to tango with Big Mom and come out on top, they've either lost or escaped. And after all this time they still haven't shaken Big Mom from their trail. If everything they do against Big Mom has zero effect on her, then where would the tension be? What kind of threshold would they have to reach to be able to take on Kaido? Honestly, when you look at it, Big Mom is actually the only Yonko who's never had a real down moment in her past. She went on unstoppable rampages before she hit puberty, and we've never heard of her losing a battle, let alone being injured by an attack. Whitebeard was second best to Roger, but it seems like Roger never clashed with Big Mom at all.
I get the excitement that hype creates. Big Mom already got plenty of it when she trounced Brook, gave Bege a pounding, and took out Judge and two of his sons like they were nothing. But there are points in the story where the big bad can't be perfect. Having the Straw Hats succumb like flakes when there are obviously a ton of opportunities in their favor would be a massive disservice to them, and a massive disservice to Big Mom. Because how interesting is simple domination compared to dealing with the best the opponent has to offer and overcoming it?
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If Oda lived up to the standards some are expecting to see then the Strawhats would be dead. How is this even a discussion lol if Big Mom didn't have her hunger craze and wasn't weakened by the convenient cake plot then they would all be dead. Is that good storytelling? No one's a match for her in this arc so she's clowning around and showing us glimpses of what she's capable of all while giving the main characters some room to manoeuvre.
Napoleon can shape shift because once a soul is placed into something it can change shape. It can sprout eyes and a mouth and just do all sorts of things because it's alive. There's nothing special about the sword other than it has Big Mom's soul in it. Sometimes the right answer is the most obvious one.
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part of blackbeard's schtick is that he gets smashed flat when he's not being a crafty sum'bitch
he knows he can't take hits, but he's also a moron when success gets to his head. It's great. -
the problem is that people think the yonkos are gods just because of what whitebeard did even though we know that whitebeard was above the yonko.
we know that there are 4 admirals and 4 yonko and given that they are both top tiers and we know that the marines+shichibukai balance out the yonko, we can assume that the admirals=yonko captains. Sure Kaido is the strongest creature, but he was never portrayed to be on par with whitebeard, meaning that even if he is the strongest, he is only the strongest by a small margin.
big mom should be on par with fujitora. Her weaknesses don't make her a joke, they make her an interesting character.
Big Mom in her fat form is far stronger than fujitora. While Fujitora was at best on par with G2/G3 Luffy without his DF, Big Mom was able to clash with G4 Luffy without her DF. BM could essentially launch G4+ level attacks without even trying while in her fat form. The downside to this is that eventually her hunger will kick in, we know that top tiers can fight for days and that big mom cannot go a couple days without food without going into a rampage.
this means that initially big mom is stronger than the average top tier, however her stamina is(relatively speaking) extremely low, meaning that if she cannot defeat her opponent within that interval before her rampage kicks in, her power drops exponentially.
This doesn't make big mom a joke, this gives her an interesting power dynamic, in fact it is the exact same power dynamic that Oda uses for G4(high power, low stamina). Ultimately Oda is making it to where each of the yonko are extremely individualized. I'd prefer this to the yonko being a bunch of copy-paste characters
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^Pretty much this.
Nobody is claiming Big Mom is weak, but I can't remember a villain who was made this big a fool of since maybe Foxy of the Foxy Pirates or Oars of Thriller Bark.
The only villain who managed to succed at anything was Enel and Akainu, honestly. In this arc, the Big Mom pirates managed to beat Luffy twice.
Yes. very simple logic man. She imbeded her devil fruit hat/sword with her soul.
I also really like the Shape shifting metal idea by somebody else.
Only Zoans have been show being fused with Objects. And last time I checked Swords and Hats weren't animals.
Yea Nami softened the buscuits but the man behind the biscuits was a weakling. Cracker's greatest strengths were his armament haki (which no doubt was the most phenomenal seen so far) and his ability to spam making biscuit soldiers.
When Luffy landed one hit (with his gut, not even a real punch) Cracker was ko. So yea if Luffy is able to get to the actual Cracker he could win. I think this is super off topic for this chapter tho.
You forgot the fact that Luffy used three of Cracker's own biscuit soldiers to beat him instead of delivering his own attacks. He even asked Nami to stop raining so that the soldiers would still be hard enough.
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Oh yeah Cracker is probably still unconscious.
I kinda want to see someone tell him about all the crazy stuff that happened after his defeat just too see his reaction. lol -
@Count:
It's totally possible, but it's pure conjecture. Her riding Prometheus is a good point I never considered though.
It does make some sense. I can totally buy it. Still hoping for a direct confirmation though. I want answers for both of them. And now I wish that Ruin's comment about the Homies being related to food came true because it would make them sync much more with Big Mom's personality and theme.
Napoleon is a name of ice cream and/or cookies isn't it? Though when it comes to themes I look at Big Mom as the mother to all things in the world living and inanimate. She is literally Mother Nature.
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@Joy:
Lmao. It's not my own fantasies as you say. Big Mom isn't living to the the standards Oda presented about the Yonko.
Can you provide an actual panel from the manga, or quote Oda when it comes to yonko? Because for all your whining, there is hardly ANY evidence of what you claim Oda promised, and failed at.
At the moment, you are presenting YOUR interpretation of yonko as the absolute fact here.
well yeah I'm going to call bullshit on Big Mom completely failing to do anything against Nami, Chopper and Brook 3 fucking times.
Can you comment on Big Mom against what is set up for her character, and not your personal "standards"? Like where did it suggest in the manga, or from Oda that BM is similar to WB, or has to be like him?
Also WB was THE strongest man in the world. BM wasn't set up like him in anyway.
So again your argument needs to have some serious citation from the manga.
Otherwise this is the most typical battledom rumbling that most people don't take seriously. Except the people who somehow feel important by measuring power levels in a fucking rubber pirate manga.
Never pretended it is. Doesn't mean it was this inconsistent when it came to powers.
According to your logic. Not manga, or Oda's logic.
SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING
This is objectively wrong.
Please read the chapter again.
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Napoleon is a name of ice cream and/or cookies isn't it? Though when it comes to themes I look at Big Mom as the mother to all things in the world living and inanimate. She is literally Mother Nature.
I'm pretty sure Napoleon is a reference to Napoleon Bonaparte, who is famous for wearing bicorne hats like Big Mom. Although it could be both him and the ice cream at the same time, maybe. Oda also referenced Bonaparte's battles with Law's name. The Battle of Waterloo and the Battle of Trafalgar.
I know that. The weather theme also fits how witchy she is. But I don't know, it's not impossible to create candy/food-themed weather Homies either. Like… imagine if Zeus was made of cotton candy. Or Napoleon's sword was shaped like a cake knife. Things like that. That way, we get Gluttonous Mother Nature. But her powers still work fine, her Devil Fruit is already one of my favorites in the series!
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You forgot the fact that Luffy used three of Cracker's own biscuit soldiers to beat him instead of delivering his own attacks.
Tbh that's irrelevant. Luffy could have just blasted cracker into the ground and it would have worked just as fine.
Luffy could solo Cracker anyway because he is soloing Katakuri right now.
Also as far as objects eating devil fruits your making a terrible assumption that just because we have seen objects eating zoans that that is all they can do.
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@Joy:
because I don't suck Oda's dick with this kind of writing as most do here
I love how he says "most here" like suggesting that people blindly worship Oda here. Of all places, he claims THIS in here.
Just pure lol worthy.
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@Monkey:
the problem is that people think the yonkos are gods
They're not gods obviously but they're quite clearly above everyone else in the series.
even though we know that whitebeard was above the yonko.
lolwut? That definitely was not the case.
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@Count:
Unfortunately, I would say this extends to Oda's disinterest in characterizing his villains much beyond the depth of most Disney villains.
I agree with most of this but feel I should point out that Arlong actually did care about his crew. Which was the main difference between him & Hodi.
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Moria loved his crew once too.
The thing was preskip antagonists never got backstories. That started happening after the timeskip. And even then it's not like they weren't well characterized it's just that they never really needed to be all that deep. They were never really villains in the sense that they were out to do evil for the sake of evil. They were just people with different goals.
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I agree with most of this but feel I should point out that Arlong actually did care about his crew. Which was the main difference between him & Hodi.
Moria loved his crew once too.
The thing was preskip antagonists never got backstories. That started happening after the timeskip. And even then it's not like they weren't well characterized it's just that they never really needed to be all that deep. They were never really villains in the sense that they were out to do evil for the sake of evil. They were just people with different goals.
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about Arlong.
Moria also lost his crew, but that was only covered during one moment in his final fight. It helps support his motivations, but it comes so late in the arc that it hardly makes his corruption in being so lazy and selfish sympathetic. It mainly highlights the tactical use of having a dead army instead of living comrades and foreshadowing the crew's future troubles of meeting up to the New World's standards.
And I didn't mean to imply that early One Piece villains not being deep was a bad thing. They all served their roles fine, which is always what mattered. But I do sometimes wish for one villain to significantly break the mold.
I would still call all of them hardcore villains though. I get that saying "evil for the sake of evil" might be cutting their unique goals too thin, but they still completely act the part in their methods and personality. They all probably have backstories, but they didn't matter enough to be expanded upon. And when the likes of Lucci, Hody, and Caesar got flashbacks during their tenure as villains, they were bloodthirsty dogs from the start. Doflamingo was atrociously selfish from the start too, but at least he and Big Mom have growth in how malicious they become.
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@Count:
I'm pretty sure Napoleon is a reference to Napoleon Bonaparte, who is famous for wearing bicorne hats like Big Mom. Although it could be both him and the ice cream at the same time, maybe. Oda also referenced Bonaparte's battles with Law's name. The Battle of Waterloo and the Battle of Trafalgar.
Well I figured that part went without saying. You were looking for food themes(I think) and as far as I know the Napoleon pastry is named after Bonaparte. Something about him eating too many of them before the battle of Waterloo and it gave him indigestion. And afterward that pastry was hence forth called the Napoleon. Saw it on Hysteria, I think. For what Napoleon is and who his Mama is I feel like both the person and pastry are exactly what Oda was referencing.
As for the second part of your quote, I think the reason we don't see a cotton candy Zues despite those things existing in One Piece's nature is probably the same reason we don't see any of Oda's weird made up animals as Zoan fruits. As weird as One Piece is that might be to much for the audience to run with. Can cotton candy still produce electricity or would it melt if it tried to rain on anyone?
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Well I figured that part went without saying. You were looking for food themes(I think) and as far as I know the Napoleon pastry is named after Bonaparte. Something about him eating too many of them before the battle of Waterloo and it gave him indigestion. And afterward that pastry was hence forth called the Napoleon. Saw it on Hysteria, I think. For what Napoleon is and who his Mama is I feel like both the person and pastry are exactly what Oda was referencing.
Oh. That makes plenty of sense to me then, thanks for the info!
As for the second part of your quote, I think the reason we don't see a cotton candy Zues despite those things existing in One Piece's nature is probably the same reason we don't see any of Oda's weird made up animals as Zoan fruits. As weird as One Piece is that might be to much for the audience to run with. Can cotton candy still produce electricity or would it melt if it tried to rain on anyone?
I only mention cotton candy clouds considering how candy weather already exists in the One Piece universe. But I see your point.
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They're not gods obviously but they're quite clearly above everyone else in the series.
I agree with most of this but feel I should point out that Arlong actually did care about his crew. Which was the main difference between him & Hodi.
Moria loved his crew once too.
The thing was preskip antagonists never got backstories. That started happening after the timeskip. And even then it's not like they weren't well characterized it's just that they never really needed to be all that deep. They were never really villains in the sense that they were out to do evil for the sake of evil. They were just people with different goals.
Also Katakuri seems to care about his crew as does Big Mom (she didnt want to harm her first son and only accidentally killed another son when she was mid rampage)
And Doflamingo cared about his crew too. He wouldnt let people even laugh at Pika.
I give Oda great credit for making all of the major villains (after Kuro of Usopps village) in every arc more than just one dimensional evil people.
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Also Katakuri seems to care about his crew as does Big Mom (she didnt want to harm her first son and only accidentally killed another son when she was mid rampage)
And Doflamingo cared about his crew too. He wouldnt let people even laugh at Pika.
I give Oda great credit for making all of the major villains (after Kuro of Usopps village) in every arc more than just one dimensional evil people.
Doflamingo did NOT care about his crew. No one who did would ever ask any of them to die for him. He was as selfish as we saw in his flashback and always was.
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Napoleon isn't ice cream you're thinking of Neapolitan. Some do call it Napoleon though through confusion.
Doflamingo did NOT care about his crew. No one who did would ever ask any of them to die for him. He was as selfish as we saw in his flashback and always was.
You're wrong. Doflamingo does care about his crew he never punished any of them for their failures throughout Dressrosa and this idea actually comes to the fore when he tells Violet that he doesn't punish his crew for their failures but traitors he will never forgive, hence his own blood brother was shot to death and even that you see some hesitation from him until Corazon leaves him no choice through further smack talk. He apologizes to Monet when he asks her to blow the place up she left him no choice but to do that and after that he went to exact revenge on Law and Luffy by personally coming to Punk Hazard himself. The only person he didn't care about was Bellamy but Bellamy was never part of his original family.
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The villains (like DD/kata/BM) care-ish about their crew. They will not allow anyone to smack talk them/make fun of them/look down on them but at the same time they do not love their crew. They are perfectly willing to to sacrifice members of their crew for the bigger goal whereas Luffy does not want to be PK without his crew.
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Tbh that's irrelevant. Luffy could have just blasted cracker into the ground and it would have worked just as fine.
He spend almost a whole day fighting Cracker and never tried to do that. Why is that?
Luffy could solo Cracker anyway because he is soloing Katakuri right now.
Oh? He does not seems to be doing a good job at that.
Also as far as objects eating devil fruits your making a terrible assumption that just because we have seen objects eating zoans that that is all they can do.
There is a reason why the only objects with DF were only Zoans until now. Because it wouldn't be any point in not turning the object sentient.There is also the fact that the only two DF that can give the ability to turn into a sword already exists.(Mr.1 and Baby 5.)
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The debate is heated this week.
People discredit Joy Boy a bit too much in my opinion. Some of his points are valid in particular the comparison with Dressrosa treatment. But I would agree with Koliber post. Dressrosa is the part the most faulty. Also the fact that Oda always treat the weak trio as permanent cowards instead of showing what they are capable of. That’s why this chapter was trully satisfying.
Those chapters when we have the crew coordination in order to beat a powerful enemy are some of the best (but i remind you that battles in one piece are not important :-) -
@Joy:
SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING
Yes they were scared shitless and against BM they were scared too and ready to abandon ship. When it looked like Mingo was about to kill Sanji, Nami was ready to attack until Sanji told them to fly away, despite been scared, Nami response was we could never.
If Jimbe was on the ship back then, do you think they won't have a bit of confidence?Joy Boy mate, read the room properly and understand the context very well.
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Now that I think about it. Did Bigmom even use haki on Jinbei ?
Can she even use haki while she goes full berserk ? Because it really is odd how Brook cut Zeus in half without being noticed. -
Now that I think about it. Did Bigmom even use haki on Jinbei ?
Can she even use haki while she goes full berserk ? Because it really is odd how Brook cut Zeus in half without being noticed.Of course she can use Haki. I think the explanation there was BM thought Brook was trying to attack her, she ignored the attack because Brook couldn't put a scratch on her during their first encounter. But Brook was targeting Zeus instead.
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Of course she can use Haki.
Have we seen her using haki while she was on berserk mode ??
And if she could use obersvation haki, she should have known Brook was aiming Zeus.
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Of course she can use Haki. I think the explanation there was BM thought Brook was trying to attack her, she ignored the attack because Brook couldn't put a scratch on her during their first encounter. But Brook was targeting Zeus instead.
By haki i think he tought of observatiin haki.
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By the way, I smell an Oda break coming after next chapter. It is going to be the 6th consecutive chapter, including 2 colour spreads+WSJ covers, so I think it is very likely.
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@Count:
I would still call all of them hardcore villains though.
I wouldn't mainly because of your second statement.
but they still completely act the part in their methods and personality.
Thats exactly it. They play their role. In the same way that Luffy plays the narrative role as the "Hero" even though he's not actually a hero. The antagonists play the narrative role as the "villain" even though they're not necessarily villains. At least not in the evil for the sake of evil sense. Oda's just really good at framing the fights in such a way that it "looks" like a battle of Hero vs Villain. It's more thematic than literal.
They all probably have backstories, but they didn't matter enough to be expanded upon. And when the likes of Lucci, Hody, and Caesar got flashbacks during their tenure as villains, they were bloodthirsty dogs from the start.
Come to think of it Arlong's backstory was expanded on by Jinbei. Suffering through years of oppression led to him being racist which lets us see his actions in East Blue in a slightly different light.
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And if she could use obersvation haki, she should have known Brook was aiming Zeus.
She most likely can. She's just not in a proper mental state to use observation Haki. CoO takes concentration and if the user isn't calm and collected it won't work. Big Mom is neither of those things right now. lol.
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People discredit Joy Boy a bit too much in my opinion. Some of his points are valid in particular the comparison with Dressrosa treatment.
Thats still not a valid point though.
The strawhats didn't have any abilities that could counter Doffy's. That just happens to be the case with BM. It's a matter of circumstance.
Yes they're both way above the strawhats in terms of raw power but the unpredictable interactions between DF abilities combined with BM being weakened by starvation is what kept them alive here.
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I love how RedX starts off by explaining why complaints about this chapter are dumb by going in the exact opposite direction and trying to make it seem like BMPs are not a bunch of incompetents.
Yes what happened this chapter was justified if you actually pay attention to the details. But thats it. BMs crew is an embarassment to other Yonkos. Remember that time when Cracker, a Yonko General, only damaged Luffy once with a sneak attack when his arm was stretched out in front of him? He almost took his arm off! I mean Luffy has 0 scars in that arm, which WOULD be the case if his arm was ALMOST cut off, but lets exagerate to make up for BMPs being a disappointment.
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@Kai:
I love how RedX starts off by explaining why complaints about this chapter are dumb by going in the exact opposite direction and trying to make it seem like BMPs are not a bunch of incompetents.
Yes what happened this chapter was justified if you actually pay attention to the details. But thats it. BMs crew is an embarassment to other Yonkos. Remember that time when Cracker, a Yonko General, only damaged Luffy once with a sneak attack when his arm was stretched out in front of him? He almost took his arm off! I mean Luffy has 0 scars in that arm, which WOULD be the case if his arm was ALMOST cut off, but lets exagerate to make up for BMPs being a disappointment.
See, I love comments like this. Because when we're in Wano, and the Beasts Pirates eventually lose, you can bet the so-called "incompetence" and "plot armor" terms people love to throw around will be a big part of it.
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I wouldn't mainly because of your second statement.
Thats exactly it. They play their role. In the same way that Luffy plays the narrative role as the "Hero" even though he's not actually a hero. The antagonists play the narrative role as the "villain" even though they're not necessarily villains. At least not in the evil for the sake of evil sense. Oda's just really good at framing the fights in such a way that it "looks" like a battle of Hero vs Villain. It's more thematic than literal.
Um… Wait, are you taking my "evil for the sake of evil" quote to mean that a villain isn't a true villain as long as they have a goal and aren't just causing random mischief? I strongly disagree with that distinction. What I mean by that quote is mainly their personality and actions in how they acquire what they want, and usually what they want is something completely selfish. So I feel perfectly fine labeling as being villains to the core. I apparently didn't elaborate enough, I apologize.
Why does Crocodile want an Ancient Weapon? Because he's evil and will use it to conquer things. Why did Enel show up in Skypiea one day to declare himself a god and takes lives like it's a game? Because he's evil. He wants to go the moon, sure, but he's also a prick in how he does that because he happens to be a prick. Why does Lucci crave bloodshed? Because he is a trained assassin from birth, which makes him evil. He doesn't even give a damn about any real notions of justice, only an excuse to kill like an attack dog because it's the only thing he knows. Why does Caesar want to create weapons of mass destruction? Because he's evil. He's a pure sadist, as we saw from his flashback of working with Vegapunk and his time on Zou. Hell, despite my praise for Doflamingo's depth, we have Rosinante literally say he was "born evil" as the strict distinction between them as twins growing up in the same circumstances. Kuro's motivation for retiring makes sense as he is bored of pirating, but he wants to kill Kaya despite all the years they spent and threatens his crew with death because... he's evil.
There are exceptions like Moria, Magellan, and Big Mom. I'll even count Lucci because at least his upbringing gives a reasonable rationale for who he is. But the rest of them, until we learn more, are just assholes to be assholes in whatever they want to do. Their goals are unique and understandable, sure. But why do most of them want those goals? Because, again, they're just assholes. Assholes that want power no matter what it takes. At least, that's what Oda is doing by having their backstories and personalities be mainly defined by maliciousness, oppression, manipulation, and deceit.
You're correct about Luffy as a selfish chaotic "hero" though.
Come to think of it Arlong's backstory was expanded on by Jinbei. Suffering through years of oppression led to him being racist which lets us see his actions in East Blue in a slightly different light.
Totally!
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This is the first time we see a Yonko as an enemy group and people are acting like we saw the SHs facing one of them before.
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@Count:
Um… Wait, are you taking my "evil for the sake of evil" quote to mean that a villain isn't a true villain as long as they have a goal and aren't just causing random mischief? I strongly disagree with that distinction. What I mean by that quote is mainly their personality and actions in how they acquire what they want, and usually what they want is something completely selfish. So I feel perfectly fine labeling as being villains to the core. I apparently didn't make elaborate enough, I apologize.
Why does Crocodile want an Ancient Weapon? Because he's evil and will use it to conquer things. Why did Enel show up in Skypiea one day to declare himself a god and takes lives like it's a game? Because he's evil. He wants to go the moon, sure, but he's also a prick in how he does that because he happens to be a prick. Why does Lucci crave bloodshed? Because he is a trained assassin from birth, which makes him evil. He doesn't even give a damn about any real notions of justice, only an excuse to kill like an attack dog because it's the only thing he knows. Why does Caesar want to create weapons of mass destruction? Because he's evil. He's a pure sadist, as we saw from his flashback of working with Vegapunk and his time on Zou. Hell, despite my praise for Doflamingo's depth, we have Rosinante literally say he was "born evil" as the strict distinction between them as twins growing up in the same circumstances. Kuro's motivation for retiring makes sense as he is bored of pirating, but he wants to kill Kaya despite all the years they spent and threatens his crew with death because... he's evil.
There are exceptions like Moria, Magellan, and Big Mom. I'll even count Lucci because at least his upbringing gives a reasonable rationale for who he is. But the rest of them, until we learn more, are just assholes to be assholes in whatever they want to do. Their goals are unique and understandable, sure. But why do most of them want those goals? Because, again, they're just assholes. Assholes that want power no matter what it takes. At least, that's what Oda is doing by having their backstories and personalities be manly defined by maliciousness, oppression, manipulation, and deceit.
You're correct about Luffy as a selfish chaotic "hero" though.
Totally!
I wouldn't say their goals are unique (both Wapol and Doflamingo did what they did to reclaim their birthrights) but they're definitely motivated by greed or selfishness, and while that doesn't necessarily mean a person has to be an asshole about how they express that, these guys definitely had no hangups with being assholes in how they pursued their objectives.
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@Kai:
Yes what happened this chapter was justified if you actually pay attention to the details. But thats it.
lol. What do you mean "thats it"? Thats all that matters. The facts. Not your superficial concern with "appearances" and "looking badass".
BMs crew is an embarassment to other Yonkos.
Hardly.
I mean Luffy has 0 scars in that arm, which WOULD be the case if his arm was ALMOST cut off,
Not really. Luffy rarely gets scars. The guy heals like a video game character. Leopard Lucci ran him through with a shigan and Luffy said that shit went away after he had lunch. lmao.