Chapter 884: Who

[Neo]

@Xelloss:

Let's see where this is heading. After this chapter, Katakuri's advantage is shrinking but is still large

1. devil fruit powers: awakening gives Katakuri so many ways to use his mochi powers that Luffy cannot match

2. Haki:
   a) armament: in G4, Luffy can break Katakuri's CoA, but he needs to land a hit
   b) observation: Katakuri's mastering of CoO is at a whole different level. Luffy will have a very difficult time hitting him, unless he loses focus
   c) conqueror: ???

Now there are three things that may happen:

• Luffy awakens his devil fruit.
  Frankly I'm not looking forward to this development: sure it's going to happen sooner or later, but it doesn't look like awakening can give the sort of boost Luffy needs to beat his opponent

• Luffy's CoO becomes at least as good as Katakuri's.
  This is even worse. No way he can match Katakuri at his specialty mid-fight: not even Bigmom has the ability to see the future!

• Luffy will win through an unexpected development of his CoC.
  This is something I'd want to see! Right now, conqueror's haki has only been used to dispose of fodder, but it is implied it goes much farther than that.
  Being an ability that cannot be achieved through experience or training (or even by eating a magical fruit…), it is rare and expected to exceed anything else we've seen so far.
  Can Luffy beat Katakuri's specialty (CoO) by means of his own specialty (CoC)? I'm sure he can!

I'm not worried if any of the above happen, actually. I would think Luffy the type to try out CoO since Dogtooth told him how he could use it. (You just need to be calm and focus) I am not sure if he has an idea on how to improve his CoC. I'd prefer Luffy to use the same ability as Dogtooth, actually.

[Sereques]

That Rhino Schneider did a good one on Katakuri, if he had eaten it second one, it will be a different story. I will say Katakuri is 3 to 4 more G4 hits from passing out.

[Neo]

@Sads:

Praline :wub:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/236/145/9c9.jpg
.

Oh, she's hot. I now understand why people like her, and she has a nice facial expression. I wouldn't be surprised if she would try to bite my head off.

Edit: Never mind, it seems she does not act as she looks, seeing as she is in love with Adaline and she is very loyal. I expected her to be more aggressive, but she probably isn't. I assume she may go along with the Sun Pirates now, since she'd betray her over her own husband, which I think is cute. She is bae.

[Kaizoku_Ou]

@MrPecans:

Gosh, I sure hope Sanji gets a fight. Oven seems like he'd be pretty suitable, even if Daifuku already started something.

That could actually be a pretty good situation for Sanji since heat doesn't work on him that much as he said earlier on(something among the lines of "how can a cook be scared of fire "). Oven also will be immune to Sanji's 'heat'. Oven is also blonde :ninja:

[K. Kira XXIII]

What a great chapter, pretty enjoyable. The title 'Who' is used around the entire chapter it is great. Starting from the cover page and the long leg and long arm pointing at each other. As an answer to the "thousand year long dispute" between them. I guess a unification under the Straw Hat banner is on the works. Other uses were about whom was making a ruckus outside the kitchen and the kidnapping of sea slugs by Praline.

Finally Katakuri gets a whooping, not sure how the fight progresses from here, but we got quite a bit of information. First that gear fourth is indeed enough to beat Katakuri, and that the real challenge is to overcome his observation haki. Even though we knew, it is confirmed that the only limit on observation haki is being in a calm state of mind. Interesting that both Katakuri and Cracker have not been hit for years.

Oda putting humor in his fight with Katakuri making donuts and Luffy responding. I am not sure Luffy has been hit that hard in gear fourth before.

I guess that the husbands were all discarded after the birth of their children. Quite cruel. It is weird how relaxed the Big Mom pirates are in respect to Mama destroying islands as she approaches Cacao Island.

Praline~ I like this scenario way more than the literal fishing idea I had. Which didn't make sense considering that they are…well, Fishmen.

[Watch-man]

@Sereques:

That Rhino Schneider did a good one on Katakuri, if he had eaten it second one, it will be a different story. I will say Katakuri is 3 to 4 more G4 hits from passing out.

I am not that optimistic. Katakuri will need something big for finishing touch like his equivalent of King Kong Gun clashing with Luffys KKG.

Elephant Gattling in G4 would be crazy ;)

[K. Kira XXIII]

King Kong Organ. All I know is that Oda does well in keeping us guessing how strong Luffy really is.

[desa]

A 1000 year war? It's cool to see something dating before the void century and that isn't related to him at all.

Sooo the big reveal is that Luffy can punch Dogtooth? That seems a little light. He straight caught him in some chapters ago and I think Luffy would notice that he isn't connecting with his punches.

So gear 4 finally enter the fray. Time to see how it performs.

I wonder if the fishmen will stick around until the strawhats are gone.

So we have a future reunion for Chiffon and a future fight for Sanji.

@thegab:

Didn't crocodile say something like he trained his fruit so much, going intangible became instinct? I think it was mentioned with Ace too during the Blackbeard fight.

Edit: It wasn't mentioned during the Ace v Blackbeard battle, I must be thinking of Enel. I'd look but I got work to do.

He did not. He just said people should train their fruit rather than just be satisfied with what they got. He probably was thanking how he makes sandstorm or suck people dry but somehow this got transformed into the supposed training logia need. It also was not mentioned with Ace or Enel.

[MrPecans]

I mean, it's pretty much a fact that Logias aren't always intangible. It's a trained defense mechanism. I don't know why I was being so wishy washy before.

I want to further amend my previous statements about Katakuri's fruit:

I think he is possibly always in mochi mode. This isn't a certainty, but because of Luffy I think it's possible.
Regardless, it seems he can definitely manifest MORE mochi. This may seem obvious but I think it's worth stating that he is different (and more Mr. 3/Magellan like) compared to Luffy in this regard, since Luffy can only work with what he's got - until he awakens.

Ok gonna fly to San Francisco now.

[Sereques]

@Watch-man:

I am not that optimistic. Katakuri will need something big for finishing touch like his equivalent of King Kong Gun clashing with Luffys KKG.

Elephant Gattling in G4 would be crazy ;)

Once Luffy breaks his concentration again, he will want to end it quickly, I'm thinking in line with some kind of G4 storm that punches katakuri from mirror world to real world. We haven't see a storm attack since Thriller Bark (I may be wrong)

[Razh]

@HaxeyeMihawk:

Other posters have already said what i was going to say but given the fact Dofla was underestimating G4 on its appearance alone and given that he tried to beat out King Kong gun in the actual events of the fight we can certainly say he wouldn't have tried to dodge it. Luffy not quickly taking Doflamingo out had more to do with PIS in order to add drama than any limitation of his power.

Not sure why everyone ignores the dodge option.

There's no way of knowing if Dofla would have chosen to dodge if Luffy decided to lead in with King Kong Gun. Is Dofla incapable of dodging somehow?

When he confronted King Kong, he was committing fully to the attack and chose to block instead of dodge. It might have been different in a different situation. We can't certainly say shit.

It's weird that you think Luffy was the victim of plot induced stupidity when it's pretty clear who was actually nerfed for this fight. Who do you think is more intelligent between Luffy and Dofla? And who acted dumber in the fight?

[HaxeyeMihawk]

@Razh:

Not sure why everyone ignores the dodge option.

There's no way of knowing if Dofla would have chosen to dodge if Luffy decided to lead in with King Kong Gun. Is Dofla incapable of dodging somehow?

When he confronted King Kong, he was committing fully to the attack and chose to block instead of dodge. It might have been different in a different situation. We can't certainly say shit.

It's weird that you think Luffy was the victim of plot induced stupidity when it's pretty clear who was actually nerfed for this fight. Who do you think is more intelligent between Luffy and Dofla? And who acted dumber in the fight?

Doflamingo wouldn't and didnt dodge because he was arrogant and thought he was stronger than G4, he thought G4 was a joke immediately after Luffy assumed the form due to its appearance. Even after he was getting knocked around he seemed to still believe he could take that form so there's nothing to suggest he would've treated king Kong Gun any different than he treated G3 or Kong Gun and would've attempted to block it either via spider net move or his arms because he was underestimating Luffy. Lastly G4 attacks are also fast remember that was the whole point of the form over G3, incredible power and speed

People need to get over gamma knife, no gamma knife doesn't suddenly make Luffy take damage from Doflamingos attacks nor would it stop him from snapping his strings like he was nor would it stop G4 from flinging Doflamingo across Dressrosa. Gamma knife had to happen because Law is an important side character since he's a supernova and he had a much stronger tie and reason to fight Doflamingo than Luffy.

That seemed to be Odas motivation for that, to have Law do SOMETHING not to send the message that Luffy couldn't defeat Doflamingo.

[Watch-man]

I would say that Doflamingos combat power is in same leaque as Cracker or Katakuri. I would put him between those two.

Luffys going to learn a lot from his fight with Katakuri. I cannot wait to see Gear 5th inspired by fight with Katakuri.

[Conqueror's Haki Corner]

Greetings all exploring Arlong Park! Luffy learns the LEVELS of awakening!

CHC here, bringing the latest in the chapter review, the link at the bottom will cover the following;

One Piece Manga Chapter 884 Review

In this weeks review we cover;

Luffy explains Katakuri's 'weakness'.
Gear 4 explosive shot to Katakuri.
Katakuri acknowledges Luffy's strength.
Katakuri's awakening takes another step forward.
Katakuri teaches Luffy there is LEVELS!
Armament haki infused with awakening!
Luffy now on the brink of survival again!
Pound banging on the cake factory begging to come in!
Brulee spreading news of Straw hats plan.
Pudding learns of big brother Katakuris fight with Luffy.
Sanji responds!
Charlotte Pralin playing the pied piper role with the sea slugs!

Please see video below…Enjoy!

[Seafarer33]

@MrPecans:

I mean, it's pretty much a fact that Logias aren't always intangible. It's a trained defense mechanism

I wouldn't be so sure about that. If making proper use of a logia's intangibility required training / observation haki and if anyone could simply catch a user off-guard while they're tangible, then Logias wouldn't be considered that great. They're certainly less impressive here in the New World now that everyone and their sister has armament haki, but still treasured.

On the contrary, I would think that the intangibility against attacks is a given and remaining tangible is what takes a conscious effort. The user's body will be tangible by default but reacts of its own accord against an aggression, unless they will it not to. Like when Ace decided to take that magma fist instead of letting it pass right through him (admittedly there might have been haki involved anyway, but that's another discussion)
And speaking of, the part where I see a necessary training is for a logia user to become able to evade attacks by reforming their body the way Katakuri (and possibly Akainu) have been doing. But a normal attack, like say a bullet, would always go right through them even if they're untrained and completely unaware of it.

[Sereques]

@K.:

King Kong Organ. All I know is that Oda does well in keeping us guessing how strong Luffy really is.

I believe Luffy's strength is very clear, people just refuse to see it because our hero doesn't appear cool like the villains.

[Koliber]

@Sereques:

I believe Luffy's strength is very clear, people just refuse to see it because our hero doesn't appear cool like the villains.

More than 180 chapters into th post-TS we learned Luffy has another Gear, 50 chapters later it turned out said Gear has another form. To this moment it's not clear if Luffy has shown everything he acquired during his training.

[Watch-man]

@Koliber:

More than 180 chapters into th post-TS we learned Luffy has another Gear, 50 chapters later it turned out said Gear has another form. To this moment it's not clear if Luffy has shown everything he acquired during his training.

I expect Gear 4th to get one more new form after fight with Katakuri. Something square shaped and condensed and small like Hardman. As counter to enemies with stronger CoA haki.

[Razh]

@HaxeyeMihawk:

Doflamingo wouldn't and didnt dodge because he was arrogant and thought he was stronger than G4, he thought G4 was a joke immediately after Luffy assumed the form due to its appearance. Even after he was getting knocked around he seemed to still believe he could take that form so there's nothing to suggest he would've treated king Kong Gun any different than he treated G3 or Kong Gun and would've attempted to block it either via spider net move or his arms because he was underestimating Luffy. Lastly G4 attacks are also fast remember that was the whole point of the form over G3, incredible power and speed

People need to get over gamma knife, no gamma knife doesn't suddenly make Luffy take damage from Doflamingos attacks nor would it stop him from snapping his strings like he was nor would it stop G4 from flinging Doflamingo across Dressrosa. Gamma knife had to happen because Law is an important side character since he's a supernova and he had a much stronger tie and reason to fight Doflamingo than Luffy.

That seemed to be Odas motivation for that, to have Law do SOMETHING not to send the message that Luffy couldn't defeat Doflamingo.

Didn't mention that gamma knife idiocy at all. That crap served no purpose whatsoever, which was evident in the fact it didn't visibly reduce Dofla's fighting capability.

It's just that you can't say Luffy's behavior was PIS in the same fight where we have Dofla (Oda) using a fraction of imagination when it comes to creative use of his abilities. Not to mention his stubborn insistance on tanking hits instead of dodging, or not using strings to help him dodge and his opponent miss. It was like there were 2 Doflas in that arc. Crazy, intelligent and dangerous Dofla, and later tired, weak willed and resigned to defeat Dofla.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

I still don-t get it why WG considers chopper and beppo pets and they consider Pedro and pekoms proper pirates. Chopper is pretty much like the minks, and beppo is actual mink.

Btw I want to see sanji use something new with his legs, like double legs rhino schneider
like attacks.

[Sads]

[Koliber]

Now I noticed that depending of Luffy's control of environment when using awakening (assuming it's bouncy castle) he could replicate th trick with doubling the speed of bullet hitting him, making himself true Bellamy+ and in place like mirrorworland achieving incredible speed in really short time, which should make him to fast for Kataluri to properly react (basically attacking from diffrent sides at the same time, so he cannot make enough holes in himself).

[Sereques]

@Koliber:

More than 180 chapters into th post-TS we learned Luffy has another Gear, 50 chapters later it turned out said Gear has another form. To this moment it's not clear if Luffy has shown everything he acquired during his training.

Understanding Luffy's strength is about knowing what to look for. We all know Luffy gets stronger with fights. I've seen post staying Luffy G4 won't be enough for Katakuri, another power up is needed. That's not the point. I've maintained Luffy's G4 will crush Katakuri and the biggest obstacle is how to make the hits land. Their assessment is Doffy took 6-7 hits to get defeated, hence, it's too weak to defeat a billion beli man. Forgetting that G4 relies heavily on CoA, Luffy's CoA is getting stronger, Doffy could pierce through Luffy in dressrosa while Cracker couldn't. Point is the G4 on display now is way more powerful than the G4 in Dressrosa.

All Luffy learn in training is the basics of Haki and how to use Haki, with Haki he can do many interesting things. There is a limit in how powerful his Haki can be when all he did was fight animals. If Luffy walk off that Island with G5, G6 etc learnt, then something is wrong with the story. Marines could as well go capture those animals and set them lose against the pirates.

Edit: my prediction is Luffy will leave G4 since he can no longer hit Katakuri, he will find a way to disrupt Katakuri's concentration again, I have a feeling he will play dirty and use Brulee, then use that chance to go back in G4 and crush him finally. He's not going to awaken now or start G5, that's Bleach. I believe we will get to a point someone will explain to him how to awaken ones DF. Awaken will be ready in time for Kaidou with CoA at or greater levels above Katakuri.

[Watch-man]

@Sereques:

Understanding Luffy's strength is about knowing what to look for. We all know Luffy gets stronger with fights. I've seen post staying Luffy G4 won't be enough for Katakuri, another power up is needed. That's not the point. I've maintained Luffy's G4 will crush Katakuri and the biggest obstacle is how to make the hits land. Their assessment is Doffy took 6-7 hits to get defeated, hence, it's too weak to defeat a billion beli man. Forgetting that G4 relies heavily on CoA, Luffy's CoA is getting stronger, Doffy could pierce through Luffy in dressrosa while Cracker couldn't. Point is the G4 on display now is way more powerful than the G4 in Dressrosa.

All Luffy learn in training is the basics of Haki and how to use Haki, with Haki he can do many interesting things. There is a limit in how powerful his Haki can be when all he did was fight animals. If Luffy walk off that Island with G5, G6 etc learnt, then something is wrong with the story. Marines could as well go capture those animals and set them lose against the pirates.

Edit: my prediction is Luffy will leave G4 since he can no longer hit Katakuri, he will find a way to disrupt Katakuri's concentration again, I have a feeling he will play dirty and use Brulee, then use that chance to go back in G4 and crush him finally. He's not going to awaken now or start G5, that's Bleach. I believe we will get to a point someone will explain to him how to awaken ones DF. Awaken will be ready in time for Kaidou with CoA at or greater levels above Katakuri.

Marco might be a key to Luffys awakening.

As for Luffy leaving G4.. bad idea considering that for 10minutes he turns into snail and cannot use haki.

Luffys haki probably got stronger but we do not know if Cracker was really stronger than Doflamingo. Its guessing based on what we seen. Luffys Gear 4th might be a bit stronger but I disagree that it got A LOT stronger.

[Kdom]

@Screwtape:

Has it ever been said that Logia's need to activate their intangibility?
I remember Ener intangible while sleeping but Smoker pushing Ace into the ground while after Luffy.

The way Logia works is probably as obscure as haki. It's one of those things Oda doesn't want to explain to much so as not to open the plothole box.
Considering the fact that Ace had a hard time making a straw hat for Oars Jr, I think the intangibility activation if any is not that easy.

[Takto]

So the question is now, when Kata can dodge this way, is there still a real body somewhere? Or is it all Mochi? The reason why i ask is, if a King Kong Gun would hit him, because the Fist is bigger than Katakuri. So when there is a real body somewhere in the Mochi, then he will get hurt. He can block it with Block Mochi, but it wouldnt help much because even a normal Kong Gun broke through it. So the only thing he could do is physical dodge the attack.

[Watch-man]

Katakuri might be a dwarf… not like Dressrosa dwarf but something like Straussen.

He tried to be perfect in all regards but maybe he is even more imperfect than his eating and teeth suggest.. maybe he is Luffys size..

Probably not but I cannot be sure after latest reveal. It would also explain how he didnt die from Ichijis attack better than "muh special paramecia"..

[Razh]

@Kdom:

The way Logia works is probably as obscure as haki. It's one of those things Oda doesn't want to explain to much so as not to open the plothole box.
Considering the fact that Ace had a hard time making a straw hat for Oars Jr, I think the intangibility activation if any is not that easy.

That was most likely while he still didn't have enough control over it.

Not everyone is as genius as Sabo, who learned how to control it in a few seconds after eating Mera Mera.

[Watch-man]

@Razh:

That was most likely while he still didn't have enough control over it.

Not everyone is as genius as Sabo, who learned how to control it in a few seconds after eating Mera Mera.

Maybe awakened logias are harder to be contained ;) Like they alter weather in place where they stay so they might be harder to be kept in check.

[.access timeco.]

@thegab:

Didn't crocodile say something like he trained his fruit so much, going intangible became instinct?

Do you know when he said that, though? I remember him saying it when Vivi attacked him, but when I went back to that scene there was nothing like that I was remembering. And the wiki doesn't offer the source to that line as well. Right now, even though I clearly remember him saying that, I am starting to think it was a fabricated memory.

[Razh]

@.access:

Do you know when he said that, though? I remember him saying it when Vivi attacked him, but when I went back to that scene there was nothing like that I was remembering. And the wiki doesn't offer the source to that line as well. Right now, even though I clearly remember him saying that, I am starting to think it was a fabricated memory.

This is all he said. That I can remember.

http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v20/c178/5.html

The part about him turning into sand on reflex was a conjecture based on a bad translation or something like that. If I remember well.

[Seafarer33]

@.access:

Do you know when he said that, though? I remember him saying it when Vivi attacked him, but when I went back to that scene there was nothing like that I was remembering. And the wiki doesn't offer the source to that line as well. Right now, even though I clearly remember him saying that, I am starting to think it was a fabricated memory.

I've been having the same doubts. The closest I found is this scene, although I did not do a full re-read of Alabasta. However, when that chapter first came out I think we had not even heard about Logias yet. If memory serves right we first learned about the full DF classification later on in Skypea when Eneru told Luffy how he was only a Paramecia, and that was about it at that time (we heard about Zoans in Chopper's arc, but I don't think Logias were even mentioned before. Maybe when the Straw Hats first met Ace or Smoker ? I'm not even sure). Either way, I'd say Eneru is the one who formally introduced intangibility, although I don't think he gave a full explanation, more like "I'm god tier yada yada".

Long story short, I too am starting to wonder if Crocodile explaining about intangibility isn't something that readers reinterpreted in retrospect. Unless he did some further explaining in Impell Down?

Edit: Razh beat me to it.

[desa]

@Seafarer33:

I've been having the same doubts. The closest I found is this scene, although I did not do a full re-read of Alabasta. However, when that chapter first came out I think we had not even heard about Logias yet. If memory serves right we first learned about the full DF classification later on in Skypea when Eneru told Luffy how he was only a Paramecia, and that was about it at that time (we heard about Zoans in Chopper's arc, but I don't think Logias were even mentioned before. Maybe when the Straw Hats first met Ace or Smoker ? I'm not even sure). Either way, I'd say Eneru is the one who formally introduced intangibility, although I don't think he gave a full explanation, more like "I'm god tier yada yada".

Long story short, I too am starting to wonder if Crocodile explaining about intangibility isn't something that readers reinterpreted in retrospect. Unless he did some further explaining in Impell Down?

Edit: Razh beat me to it.

Never said in the manga. Just something people assumed from Croc saying you have to train your fruit and became a known fact no one check for. It probably was helped by Smoker crashing into Ace for comedy when they were also elements like Croc.

[thegab]

@.access:

Do you know when he said that, though? I remember him saying it when Vivi attacked him, but when I went back to that scene there was nothing like that I was remembering. And the wiki doesn't offer the source to that line as well. Right now, even though I clearly remember him saying that, I am starting to think it was a fabricated memory.

No idea. I think it might just be a false memory lol unless it was an anime only thing or a bad translation I once read. I swear someone said something about it though. Weird

[Haisha Haisha no Mi]

I think Luffy will piss off Katakuri with Mochi farts :ninja:

[K. Kira XXIII]

@Sereques:

I believe Luffy's strength is very clear, people just refuse to see it because our hero doesn't appear cool like the villains.

Well I was alluding to the sense of what is the biggest technique he can currently throw. I see King Kong Gun as his new giant pistol, in other words, a basic attack. I am not doubting Luffy if that is what it came across. As I posted in my chapter review, we saw that gear fourth is enough to beat Katakuri, the main obstacle is his observation haki.

[.access timeco.]

Yeah, I'm starting to think it was just something someone came up with and we all assimilated. The scans available are still those with the bad translation and I never watched this part of the anime, so it couldn't be an old translation or something added by Toei.

[thegab]

@.access:

Yeah, I'm starting to think it was just something someone came up with and we all assimilated. The scans available are still those with the bad translation and I never watched this part of the anime, so it couldn't be an old translation or something added by Toei.

I bet you're right…or...Mandela Effect?

[.access timeco.]

On a non related note, someone on reddit came up with an interesting theory: can CoC be used to keep an enemy from properly using CoO?
We know CoC only incapacitates week targets, but maybe it could disrupt the mind of a regular foe to prevent them from using CoO finely enough to avoid attacks, since Katakuri said you need to be calm to properly "read the future".

I think this makes a lot of sense, specially if you remember Luffy and Chinjao could imbue their CoA punches with CoC as well. Back then, the addition of CoC didn't made sense, but if this could be used to prevent people like Katakuri or Logia users to dodge CoA imbued attacks, it would be interesting.

Not that I think Luffy would need it against Katakuri, there are plenty of given ways to disrupt Katakuri as it is. But he could come with this strategy after this fight and apply it when facing Akainu.

[Screwtape]

@Kdom:

The way Logia works is probably as obscure as haki. It's one of those things Oda doesn't want to explain to much so as not to open the plothole box.
Considering the fact that Ace had a hard time making a straw hat for Oars Jr, I think the intangibility activation if any is not that easy.

Yeah, one thing is for sure, Oda hasn't made it clear.

[RomanceDawn]

@.access:

On a non related note, someone on reddit came up with an interesting theory: can CoC be used to keep an enemy from properly using CoO?
We know CoC only incapacitates week targets, but maybe it could disrupt the mind of a regular foe to prevent them from using CoO finely enough to avoid attacks, since Katakuri said you need to be calm to properly "read the future".

I think this makes a lot of sense, specially if you remember Luffy and Chinjao could imbue their CoA punches with CoC as well. Back then, the addition of CoC didn't made sense, but if this could be used to prevent people like Katakuri or Logia users to dodge CoA imbued attacks, it would be interesting.

Not that I think Luffy would need it against Katakuri, there are plenty of given ways to disrupt Katakuri as it is. But he could come with this strategy after this fight and apply it when facing Akainu.

I like this idea. I hope this turns out to be the case. Gives conquerors color a little more utility.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@desa:

Never said in the manga. Just something people assumed from Croc saying you have to train your fruit and became a known fact no one check for. It probably was helped by Smoker crashing into Ace for comedy when they were also elements like Croc.

Since logias need to turn into their element, for instance ace isnt always fire or he could never sail, I dont know why automatic logia would be the way oda goes, nerves move really fast, a person could put a gun on aces head and nerves could turn ace into fire before the trigger even was fully pulled

Now whether thats trained or instinctual Im not sure, probably the latter.

[Fraco]

I really liked what Oda did with Katakuri. He showed in the previous chapter how everything Brulee said was only hype and made us believe Luffy would win easily after the kick connected.
Then in this one he showed the hype about him never laying his back on the ground is true at least on combat, cause even after 3 of the most powerful luffy attacks he never went with his back on the ground.

I'm curious about Luffy awakening right now. Luffy's been always creative, I expect lots of stuff from him when he wake up his fruit

[desa]

@Long:

Since logias need to turn into their element, for instance ace isnt always fire or he could never sail, I dont know why automatic logia would be the way oda goes, nerves move really fast, a person could put a gun on aces head and nerves could turn ace into fire before the trigger even was fully pulled

Now whether thats trained or instinctual Im not sure, probably the latter.

Because being unable to touch them is what makes them great. And also the only time we saw it not worked was the comedic moment with Ace(which would imply Ace can't do it if we take it seriously) and Caribou deciding to be hit. On the other hand Ace got shot by surprise by AUgur, Enel got pierced while sleeping.

Regardless of if people think it's stupid logias definition is that they are their element just like Luffy is rubber. If you punch Luffy in his sleep he still won't feel a thing because he is always Rubber if you shoot a logia by surpise it still won't work becasue they are their element.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@desa:

Because being unable to touch them is what makes them great. And also the only time we saw it not worked was the comedic moment with Ace(which would imply Ace can't do it if we take it seriously) and Caribou deciding to be hit. On the other hand Ace got shot by surprise by AUgur, Enel got pierced while sleeping.

Regardless of if people think it's stupid logias definition is that they are their element just like Luffy is rubber. If you punch Luffy in his sleep he still won't feel a thing because he is always Rubber if you shoot a logia by surpise it still won't work becasue they are their element.

But ace isnt always fire or he'd burn down the white whale, same with akainu, kuzan freezing literally everything, sabo accidentally burning his hat, tashigi had to try and becone intangible in punk hazard

You could say the ace, tashigi and sabo moments were all played for comedy but oda has done worldbuilding through comedic situations plenty of times

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Someone can check the japanese SBS but this seems clear enough for me to end this debate

SBS 30

D: Yo, Oda-sensei! I have a question about logia-type devil fruits. In chapter 280, Enel says that "Paramecia have to retain their original form…" Does that mean people like Crocodile, Ace, or Smoker, who can freely morph their physical bodies have logia-type devil fruits? If you don't answer me, I won't let you go to the toilet! You'll have to poop outside!-P.N. Hilarious Joke-
O: I'm not going to poop outside. Jeez, you're so gross. Talking about poop. But in any case, since this is a pretty big question, allow me to break it down simply.

|

• Gomu Gomu no Mi
• Bara Bara no Mi
• Sube Sube no Mi
• Bomu Bomu no Mi
• Kilo Kilo no Mi
• Baku Baku no Mi
• Mane Mane no Mi
• Hana Hana no Mi
• Supa Supa no Mi
• Ori Ori no Mi
• Toge Toge no Mi
• Bane Bane no Mi

|

• Ushi Ushi no Mi, Model: Bison
• Hito Hito no Mi
• Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Falcon
• Mogu Mogu no Mi
• Inu Inu no Mi, Model: Dachshund
• Uma Uma no Mi

|

• Moku Moku no Mi
• Suna Suna no Mi
• Mera Mera no Mi
• Goro Goro no Mi

|

Clear enough, right?
The logia-type, which allows its user to freely change his original physical form, definitely stands out on a whole other level compared to other devil fruits.

Freely change original physical form sounds pretty definite

[Seafarer33]

@Long:

Freely change original physical form sounds pretty definite

Well, no it doesn't. Not completely at least.

To be clear, I do agree that the body of a logia user doesn't permanently have the properties of its element, and it's a given that they're able to change into their elemental body and shape it at will. However, there isn't even a single word about intangibility in that SBS. Nothing conclusive as to wether the user's body does or does not automatically become elemental when attacked. I'll get back to the gun example : what if the gun is shot in a manner that the logia user is completely unaware of it and won't be until the bullet hits him ? Is he caught off-guard and dies from that headshot ?

As for me, until proven otherwise you simply don't catch a logia off-guard. Explain it however you want - subconscious reflex, nerves, whatever - but the thing that makes them so great is precisely that. They make the average Joe impervious to damage (barring haki and specific combinations), no training whatsoever required.

[Sereques]

@Watch-man:

Marco might be a key to Luffys awakening.

As for Luffy leaving G4.. bad idea considering that for 10minutes he turns into snail and cannot use haki.

Luffys haki probably got stronger but we do not know if Cracker was really stronger than Doflamingo. Its guessing based on what we seen. Luffys Gear 4th might be a bit stronger but I disagree that it got A LOT stronger.

Either Cracker was stronger than Doffy is irrelevant, what we needed from that fight was Luffy confirming Cracker's CoA as too hard. Probably the hardest he's seen up to that point.

Surely he can get out of G4 without been disable, he wasn't in G4 for 9hours against cracker.

[SuburbanErrorist]

@HaxeyeMihawk:

Doflamingo wouldn't and didnt dodge because he was arrogant and thought he was stronger than G4, he thought G4 was a joke immediately after Luffy assumed the form due to its appearance. Even after he was getting knocked around he seemed to still believe he could take that form so there's nothing to suggest he would've treated king Kong Gun any different than he treated G3 or Kong Gun and would've attempted to block it either via spider net move or his arms because he was underestimating Luffy. Lastly G4 attacks are also fast remember that was the whole point of the form over G3, incredible power and speed

People need to get over gamma knife, no gamma knife doesn't suddenly make Luffy take damage from Doflamingos attacks nor would it stop him from snapping his strings like he was nor would it stop G4 from flinging Doflamingo across Dressrosa. Gamma knife had to happen because Law is an important side character since he's a supernova and he had a much stronger tie and reason to fight Doflamingo than Luffy.

That seemed to be Odas motivation for that, to have Law do SOMETHING not to send the message that Luffy couldn't defeat Doflamingo.

The way doflamingo was set up to be,beheading crocodile as a joke. One kick sliced 3 palace buildings in half.

If anything dofla did more hand to hand combat.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Razh:

Didn't mention that gamma knife idiocy at all. That crap served no purpose whatsoever, which was evident in the fact it didn't visibly reduce Dofla's fighting capability.

It's just that you can't say Luffy's behavior was PIS in the same fight where we have Dofla (Oda) using a fraction of imagination when it comes to creative use of his abilities. Not to mention his stubborn insistance on tanking hits instead of dodging, or not using strings to help him dodge and his opponent miss. It was like there were 2 Doflas in that arc. Crazy, intelligent and dangerous Dofla, and later tired, weak willed and resigned to defeat Dofla.

Luffy even said to Doflamingo that theres no way an that attack from Law did nothing. Doffy was playing it off and Luffy was calling his bullshit

[Watch-man]

@Sereques:

Either Cracker was stronger than Doffy is irrelevant, what we needed from that fight was Luffy confirming Cracker's CoA as too hard. Probably the hardest he's seen up to that point.

Surely he can get out of G4 without been disable, he wasn't in G4 for 9hours against cracker.

He cannot. Most likely homies bought some time for him. He used Gear 4th only at start and finish of fight as suggested on few pages. Also that line about hardest CoA was mistranslation, really Luffy said that Crackers shield was too hard.

[Kdom]

@Long:

But ace isnt always fire or he'd burn down the white whale, same with akainu, kuzan freezing literally everything, sabo accidentally burning his hat, tashigi had to try and becone intangible in punk hazard

You could say the ace, tashigi and sabo moments were all played for comedy but oda has done worldbuilding through comedic situations plenty of times

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Someone can check the japanese SBS but this seems clear enough for me to end this debate

SBS 30

Freely change original physical form sounds pretty definite

It’s the same level as why Luffy’s clothes are always fine even if he streches them like’crazy. I think there was an SBS about that. Yours doen’s prove anything. As desa said the only time a logia was shown tangible was when luffy bumped into Smoker and Ace. Otherwise haki was used. How do you explain the scene Ace had trouble making a hat then ?