It's the hills. It's gotta be the same place.
That is a REALLY good catch.
It's the hills. It's gotta be the same place.
That is a REALLY good catch.
I do agree that much of Big Mom's past can potentially be false, be it this childhood flashback or other aspect of her history. Also, given that CP-0 already had tabs on Big Mom even as a child, it's not hard to assume that her crew may be infiltrated by the WG in some fashion. Pudding or any other child of hers could be a deep cover agent like Corazon was or the guys at Water 7 who were there for over a decade. Though probably more like Corazon if one is among her actual sons/daughters, persuaded to join the ranks of the WG at some point.
Though if it is revealed Pudding did alter her memories, I'm curious at what moment she was able to accomplish this, given that Big Mom is extremely difficult to approach even when asleep and no doubt Big Mom was aware of the danger of allowing her to have such a fruit.
The memory altering ability might end up being used another way too altering the memory of the current Mom so she forgets certain things or "remembers" another (like the Zeff assassination threat) after a potential KO this arc. Whether she is a loyal crew member or a WG agent, it seems she is will end up pro-SH in the end.
Carmel clearly hints to this, man: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelites
T](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelites)his is what mangastream generates with their shitty translations. Wrong interpretations that lead to wild theories that could be simply solved by reading a better translation (not saying this is the case, just a little bit though).
It still might be a word play from Oda.For me,considering Big Mom's sweet addiction thing,it definitely doesn't look like pure coincidence.Who knows…
So if big mom is so dangerous when she eats, then I imagine her family doesn't stay with her at the table. Or maybe they do and she managed to lower her family numbers that way? And how is this related to her dream. (her family to grow giant so she can look them in the eyes at the table)
@Count:
That's why I said 1-2 Emperors. And I also consider Teach in the same vein. And there are other wars, like coercion and such. That could still happen. I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. But because of the story focusing so much on the tension within the Charlotte Family, I expect to see some sort of resolution that makes them nicer.
But in the scenario of neutrality or ally it would just be 1 out of 4, which seems rather low. Shanks: Ally, Whitebeard: Ally, Big Mom: Ally, Kaido: Enemy, that seems oddly convenient. Alas, it is not really an argument just a remark on the lack of tension those implication could have.
I didn't really see where I missed anything, but if so, I'm sorry.
No need to apologize really, we have different interpretations of resolutions when it comes to these topics, but saying that: "these plot lines are tossed aside" alludes that I am ignoring these while I am bringing forward ways this could be handled.
Why are we talking about Sanji's earlier actions in the arc though? It's really clear that his overall character arc was needing to be pushed to the point of coming to his friends for help instead of thinking he could bare it all on his own. And the only way that stays consistent is if he really couldn't do anything to help his situation by himself. Which includes sabotaging Big Mom.
I brought this up, to show the thought process that made me think that escape would be the resolution. I am not saying this will happen, or could have happened or a what-if scenario. More of what I had expected and how I accept the possibility of neutrality more! In other words, why I am closer to agreeing with you rather than denying that outcome to stick to the escape scenario. But that is the thing, Sanji DID try to bare it all on his own, but with his sacrificial tendencies he even admitted that his journey had come to an end, and that he should just stop fighting.
The point is, I found strange Sanji was not expecting/prepared for Luffy to show up, while he should have known that would be the case given his captain's personality and the many times they have plunged into battle for a friend in need. Once it became clear that Sanji had already given up, maybe all the way from Zou, his little bursts of rebellion were merely empty threats. However at the time, those outburst made me think he was going to do something.
Sanji's Mr. Prince actions in other arcs work because we don't see him for a while and have a general idea that he's going somewhere that is big place for the enemy. Having a reveal where he somehow sabotaged the Charlottes all the way back when he was still rebelling against the Vinsmokes not only goes against the helplessness of his character arc, but also comes also as extremely lazy writing because of how long ago that was without any indications or hints. Especially considering how when he did finally leave to go meet Luffy, he ran into Bobbin and there were guards outside of his door keeping their posts. So it should not be possible for him to secretly leave his area twice. If you were Oda and actually wrote a scene where Sanji tried to sabotage but got caught by the Vinsmokes, THEN that could pay off later because of how it was built-up. But without that, there's not really a need to have this what-if discussion because we're past the point where this is possible in the scope of good writing.
Exactly, I was just commenting on how I had wished for something along those lines and that I was under the impression that his vocal outburst would have tangible actions with it. Again, emphasis on impression. Moving on.
I read over your original post. You didn't mention any resolutions.
Fair enough. I will try again.
By Charlotte Family conflict, I mean Big Mom wondering about what happened to Mother Carmel, Big Mom not knowing that she killed Moscato while her children hid the body and told the soul manifestations to collect all of the "seconds", Pudding feeling oppressed by her mother, Pudding's ambiguous relationship with Lola, Pudding needing her ability to be relevant somehow or else it's completely pointless, Pound meeting his daughter(s) again, Pudding needing to be redeemed or something else to cap off her character arc right now of being bused by her family, Chiffon getting payoff on her abusive relationship with Linlin, solving all of the miscommunication in her family made because of fearing their mother's wrath, and treating/curing Linlin's illness after all of the focus it has gotten as a terrible condition out of her control. And then there's Pekoms and whatever role he has to play. Everything here needs to be solved.
And I have not denied any of that with the scenario I propose. I included the idea of a second flashback coming up even to deal with many of these instances. Pound can escape with Chiffon, Pekoms can have his wake up call and escape with Pedro. I cannot give you a detailed answer on how all of these could be resolved though.
Germa got access to using the Baratie as a hostage through Big Mom's power. Just because they won't threaten to kill Zeff anymore does not mean Big Mom will after she calms down and remembers what the Straw Hats did after they escape. Reiju makes it clear here that while she doesn't care about Sanji or Zeff during that point in the story, she is still using the restaurant as a tool to get what she wants in coercing Sanji.
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sxYetV3gtGw/V-ga91jD5gI/AAAAAAAAf0A/skltTP7ExAUj8Xtjcm6dmbaNdJuYgbCVwCHM/s16000/0839-011.png
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CBquRNb1D0w/WHfDVV_nbJI/AAAAAAAAddU/4K3UEx2tdwwDBzM8-mwPvbxzHewCf1rkwCHM/s16000/0852-017.pngHow would the Germa get to the Baratie in time? How can the Baratie outrun Big Mom, especially if her agents are already there. Judge makes it clear that it's Big Mom's connections and power that are tying a noose around the Baratie, not the Germa.
Like I mentioned if it is from WCI to Baratie then Germa have the advantage in regards to their methods of transportation. IF someone is already there, do you expect a scout, or a ship filled with capable soldiers to take on the Baratie. While this scenario is highly likely, it does not exclude from the fact that maybe no one is there at the moment, and the threat is the same, because Big Mom could send someone in that location, and how is anyone going to communicate that to the Baratie. The threat is still there, if the latter scenario is the case then there is time for Germa to go to their aid.
They're telling him "ENOUGH" because Fishman Island is currently safe and they can take care of themselves from now on.
No no no, they told him enough AND knew that Fishman Island might not be safe anymore after Jimbe left Big Mom's crew. They know the dangers of Jimbe's actions and are even covering Fishman Island for him to be free.
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If Fishman Island comes under siege from an Emperor, that is clearly disrupting the peace and putting them at risk of destruction. And this isn't just about me selfishly wanting Jimbei to act in a certain way, this is a matter of his portrayal as a selfless and wise person. Oda wants the Straw Hats to be likable and compassionate people despite pursuing their selfish dreams. Jimbei knowing about Fishman Island being at risk and saying "Oh well, I'm in my own pirate crew now. They can take care of things without me" is irresponsible, apathetic, and just plain repugnant. He might be taking part in an assassination plan right now that will surely upset her the most that he ever can, but the intention is to kill her and be rid of her presence. Meaning that Fishman Island wouldn't be in much danger due to the panic and power vacuum Big Mom will leave.
It is more based on trusting Aladdin and his former crew to deal with the problem.
Jimbei's character development is about not being the sole martyr for Fishman Island anymore. He has protected them to the point that they can now finally fend for themselves and trust humans. Especially thanks to the Reverie coming up where they can give their say and finally gain independence. That does not mean Jimbei should not try to help when he explicitly knows they are in significant danger as a society.
No, but that does not mean he will leave the Straw Hats to deal with the problem. He already sent a messenger to Fishman Island to give warning about the upcoming dangers.
And the issue here is that Luffy doesn't have any means of communications with his troops, primarily because he doesn't want them to bother him or for them to be subservient to him. They only have the Vivre Cards.
Oh yeah, how could I forg…BIG NEWS MORGAN, that is how. If Luffy declares Fishman Island as his territory and Big Mom's forces do attack Fishman Island or the Baratie, then with the news out, the fleet does not need a word from Luffy to act, they would selfishly go to Luffy's allies aid. This could even give the Baratie time to prepare if the details about the wedding are also revealed.
Of course not. There's going to be more than that. Like maybe a revelation that Pudding tampered with Big Mom's memories relating to Elbaf either during Linlin's childhood or the failed political marriage for some sort of hidden agenda. Or Pound coming in to finally see his daughter again, along with maybe Lola making a surprise entrance after probably getting married to Lucky Roo. The thing about Chiffon's abuse is that it happened off-panel and could be due to memory tampering if Oda sees fit.
Yeah it could, but now it is almost getting to the Bonney situation. Everything could be memory manipulation, or we choose to think that because we want Pudding's relevance to be shown. But if it is indeed Pudding then how does that work into her potential redemption.
Mainly, if Luffy will not beat down the emperors then I would like to see different ways he bests them. With Kaido it is obvious, with Shanks, well lately I imagine a game like scenario, a treasure hunt. Blackbeard doesn't count. So how does Luffy proof that he bested Big Mom. Well with what we have seen, it seems he cannot through physical means. Okay, but there has also been quite the emphasis on Big Mom's crew, would it not be interesting that with Luffy declaring his territory, it is his allies that have to deal with Big Mom's forces, therefore allowing the fleet to get stronger and assert their relevance in the power struggle in the New World. That is why escaping feels really nice, because from Luffy's side he messed with her operations and escaped her territory. The backlash from it can be handled by his fleet which also ties in with your point on Luffy not dealing with everything and making it more organic and making the world alive.
@Mr.:
Though if it is revealed Pudding did alter her memories, I'm curious at what moment she was able to accomplish this, given that Big Mom is extremely difficult to approach even when asleep and no doubt Big Mom was aware of the danger of allowing her to have such a fruit.
If Pudding really wanted to alter her memories, looking at her childish personality the best way would be a honest and open confrontation. Like: "Hey, mom, let me change today's good day in a reeeally, really great day!"
It's the hills. It's gotta be the same place.
Excellent find. Those hills are in several panels of Whole Cake. Looks like strong evidence the location of the new Sheeps' Place is the same place, and it makes more sense that the candy related islands around it aren't all-natural. Similar the the elements in Punk Hazard and Dressrosa, and in some ways similar to the Jaya/Skypiea situation.
Also does support the theory that Big Mom eventually lorded over the island with the children. I mean, it does make more sense on how she got such a large family so fast. Though whether she did or did not eat Carmel is less clear as Big Mom did without a doubt get her fruit power somehow and to some extent carry the torch of the Sheep's House to her own strange ends.
And whether they are all biologically related to Big Mom is….questionable.
Really looking forward to the continuation of the Big Mom backstory. Should get insight later on in the arc.
@Mr.:
And whether they are all biologically related to Big Mom is….questionable.
Not only did Pudding clarify this in Chapter 828, but Oda also does in the Volume 85 SBS:
D: There are some characters who resemble Opera in chapter 845.
O: Big Mom is 68 years old now. She was (has been) giving birth to babies every year about for 42 years. Opera was born as quintuplets.
Opera (5th son) Counter (6th son) Cadenza (7th son) Cabaletta (8th son) Gala (9th son)
The highest record of Big Mom's multiple births is decuplets (10) children at one time. The children are now 18 years old.That isn't to say that Big Mom does not use her soul powers in some way with her kids.
@Count:
Not only did Pudding clarify this in Chapter 828, but Oda also does in the Volume 85 SBS:
That isn't to say that Big Mom does not use her soul powers in some way with her kids.
I guess there's no way around that. They apparently are.
Oda = not cannibalism.
Whatever it may be, its not cannibalism.
Cannibalism existed from the beginning. Did people forget that Zeff ate his own leg to survive? Or do people just remember the anime part of that scene (which botched the real reason zeff lost his leg)?
Cannibalism existed from the beginning. Did people forget that Zeff ate his own leg to survive? Or do people just remember the anime part of that scene (which botched the real reason zeff lost his leg)?
And wasn't Buggy's crew captured by such in his cover story? (I forget)
And wasn't Buggy's crew captured by such in his cover story? (I forget)
I remember Wapol eating himself to become thin lol.
But still. Succeeding in eating a whole person or kids is a whole other level than just acknowledging cannibalism.
While I don't think she ate them …she ate a table and didn't seem to mind the taste so there is a hole in your argument.
There is no hole. She knew she ate a table. Caring about the taste is not important, being aware of it does.
I get what you're saying, but we've seen it happen only once. It could be a pattern or it could not.
It's also possible that Pudding changed a traumatic experience into a happy experience. Something in those narration boxes seems suspicious.
I think the way Oda wrote it, her regular fits & her insistance upon the importance of her tea parties it is meant to be shorthand for 'yes this has been for the last 63 years' but you're right, it's open enough to have later interpretations.
There is something suspicious in the narration, but it is very in line with someone dealing with 63 years of half understood trauma.
Agani, I think that the main points against it being Pudding's work is that Mom doesn't seem the type to suddenly trust anyone messing with her memories and that she's just too young. If there was a hint that Mom had gotten worse in the last maybe 15 years I'd be more willing to believe it.
Apropros of nothing it looks like Sanji's family might be somewhat reformed, or at least removed as a threat, by the time this arc is over. I'm kinda hoping that as penance they're sent to Ivanov to help them get over their brutish behavior, because the idea of Ichi, Niji, Yonji & Judge unlocking their gentler sides in the Kamabaka Kingdom has me laughing.
In Laws flashback we had little Law hiding in mass of corpses and also group of kids shoot dead to the head.
I think it was darker than what Big Mom very likely just did in her flashback.
So here's the thing about that, Oda showed us those images.
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(there's a gun shot on the previous page, btw)
*taken from chapter 762
Oda was never afraid of showing some darker images, we've also seen Lucci as a kid standing on top of a pile of people he killed, so why now?
Is cannibalism where Oda draws the line? I doubt that, I'm pretty sure if he wanted he could've drawn a great scene with Linlin eating people without being gore or too heavy.
The way the camera pulls feels more like when Ace and Blackbeard fought and Oda wanted to keep the final clash under the veil for a while.
I'm pretty sure Oda as done this trick before, but i gotta be honest I can't remember where.
Just because we've seen a flashback doesn't mean we've seen all of it.
There is no hole. She knew she ate a table. Caring about the taste is not important, being aware of it does.
She also said "few bites of the table" when infact everything was eaten but a few broken pieces.
She also said "few bites of the table" when infact everything was eaten but a few broken pieces.
She's big, the table is small. Maybe few bites is all it took.
It still might be a word play from Oda.For me,considering Big Mom's sweet addiction thing,it definitely doesn't look like pure coincidence.Who knows…
I was thinking the same, I'm not very sure but I think the Japanese pronunciation of Carmel or Caramel sounds the same, since Japanese always add an extra 'u' or 'e' when the word has an 'L' at the end.
If Linlin actually did eat the other children I'm going to assume that like everything else in the present, she has decorated and dressed her children and/or crew mates to resemble what came before in her child hood.
Panda girl very well may just be wearing a panda hood because Mama wanted it that way.
Panda girl very well may just be wearing a panda hood because Mama wanted it that way.
That's exactly what it looks. The original panda kid seemed to have a natural panda hair and ears (similar to Moji), while the girl seem to be wearing a panda hood.
I was thinking the same, I'm not very sure but I think the Japanese pronunciation of Carmel or Caramel sounds the same, since Japanese always add an extra 'u' or 'e' when the word has an 'L' at the end.
They are similar, but not the same. CarUmeru x carAmeru (カルメル x カラメル).
Oda did really well with Linlin.
She's a victim of circumstance where the circumstance is that she has some otherworldly strength and ravenous gluttony (that, at this point, does not need to be explained) and she's also 5. \It's so folk-like and brother's grimm-like that such a tragic and innocent character that was never told no ended up eating the very same woman who never told her no.
So far I feel like the Mother Carmel orphan dealer twist was unneeded. I feel like Oda put it there to make Mother Carmel less likeable so when she gets eaten it doesn't feel as bad. I think it would have been completely fine - even a lot better - if Mother Carmel stayed a good woman to a complete fault.
Anyways what a terrifying fairy tale this has been.
@Game:
So far I feel like the Mother Carmel orphan dealer twist was unneeded. I feel like Oda put it there to make Mother Carmel less likeable so when she gets eaten it doesn't feel as bad. I think it would have been completely fine - even a lot better - if Mother Carmel stayed a good woman to a complete fault.
It was necessary because CP0 had to appear, and they had to appear because they obviously played a role in what transpired. Things don't happen just because in a narration like this one, in a manga like this one.
It was necessary because CP0 had to appear, and they had to appear because they obviously played a role in what transpired. Things don't happen just because in a narration like this one, in a manga like this one.
Unless it's for comedy, and even then there's a good chance of it coming back
It still might be a word play from Oda.For me,considering Big Mom's sweet addiction thing,it definitely doesn't look like pure coincidence.Who knows…
People round here say "Caramel" like "Carmel"… so maaybe.
I learned from Luffy to always butcher the names of non-important people. Caramel4life
She also said "few bites of the table" when infact everything was eaten but a few broken pieces.
depends on the translation. MS said she took a few bites, while Jaimini's Box says she ate the entire table.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Game:
She's a victim of circumstance where the circumstance is that she has some otherworldly strength and ravenous gluttony (that, at this point, does not need to be explained) and she's also 5. \It's so folk-like and brother's grimm-like that such a tragic and innocent character that was never told no ended up eating the very same woman who never told her no.
It feels like a story straight out of Der Struwwelpeter. Those Germans and their crazy bedtime stories
Unnecessary flashback. Could have just had images go through Big meme's head and dialogue lasting a few pages about how she was an orphan and Carmel took her in.
Seriously no one is gonna care about Carmel next week or forever. Too much space wasted on irrelevant characters.
While I'm not dismissing the possibility of Linlin not obliviously committing mass cannibalism, I still strongly lean on the worst-case scenario being what actually happened here.
Like I said before, this entire scenario bares many similarities to how Hansel & Gretel ended, only with a major reverse in the roles which is a very clever execution for the homage and the Whole Cake Island arc has largely featured elements from western fairytales. I'd be highly surprised if Oda didn't have this in mind as he created this chapter. Not only that, but Carmel's Underword alias "Mountain Witch" makes it feel like even more of a deliberate homage. By giving Carmel the heel turn in this chapter, she's effectively become the fitting equivalent to Hansel & Gretel's antagonist.
Regarding the likelihood of her eating the kids: if she could eat a freaking table without noticing, I don't see how eating the kids would be any more of a wake-up call. Unless I'm mistaken, I was under the impression the kids were also eating at Linlin's birthday party, so they probably would've tasted like sweets to her at first anyway - especially if she ate them whole (which I believe is what she most likely did), so blood and bones, I'd imagine, would be a non-factor here. Even if it was… again, table. Considering her size and the potency of, say, stomach acid, I doubt those poor kids stayed alive for long in her belly, and neither would Carmel.
About CP0/Marines/whoever kidnapping the kids while Linlin ate: Eh… I'm not ruling it out, but it doesn't sit well with me. We didn't see much, but it looks like the house was completely undisturbed and I would imagine any of those potential kidnappers raiding the house just in case there's any kids in there. Yeah, everyone was clearly outside for the birthday party, but leave no stone unturned, yeah? But there doesn't seem to be any indication that the house was tampered with, which is why I doubt anyone stole away with the kids under Linlin's nose.
Maybe it's because I've gotten accustomed to AoT and their method of Titans inheriting memories of other people by eating other Titans, but I can buy Linlin inheriting Carmel's DF powers via eating her whole. Seems like an Oda thing.
And yeah, Oda's gotten dark plenty of times before in VARIOUS different ways. I don't see how cannibalism is considered beyond Oda's scope. And if it had to be utilized at all, doing so in an arc full of homages of fairytales and fables that contain that sort of gruesome stuff would be the most appropriate. We've already seen Linlin eat other sentient things without a care in the world, so… yeah, this makes a lot of sense, really.
But I'm definitely not for any theory involving Pudding and her DF trickery. I'd figure if Pudding did that to her mom, she'd do it in a way that benefits her in a more direct way. Altering BM's memories just to screw with her just feels... eh... yeah, bad writing.
Well Pudding would alter he mom's memories to: become her favourite and to make the third eye special instead of gross.
The only thing that I can add in favor of cannibalism is that Big Mom animates her food. Maybe to relive the joy of hearing screams as she ate.
Unless I'm mistaken, I was under the impression the kids were also eating at Linlin's birthday party, so they probably would've tasted like sweets to her at first anyway - especially if she ate them whole (which I believe is what she most likely did), so blood and bones, I'd imagine, would be a non-factor here.
At least until the time came for her to dump those bones during #2.
Oda thinks things through a lot better than that. I guess it's possible she wouldn't remember dumping human skulls, since she was only 5, but still. What are the odds of her just swallowing each and every person while being so overcome with hunger for sweets that she chomped the table down. So she was biting semla and the table, but she swallowed children the whole?
I can't not be skeptical here.
@K.:
But in the scenario of neutrality or ally it would just be 1 out of 4, which seems rather low. Shanks: Ally, Whitebeard: Ally, Big Mom: Ally, Kaido: Enemy, that seems oddly convenient. Alas, it is not really an argument just a remark on the lack of tension those implication could have.
I'm cool with that ratio, especially since he fought with Big Mom in contrast to Shanks and Whitebeard. And I think Teach should count, even if he's ascending the ranks.
No need to apologize really, we have different interpretations of resolutions when it comes to these topics, but saying that: "these plot lines are tossed aside" alludes that I am ignoring these while I am bringing forward ways this could be handled.
And that's only because I legitimately didn't see them being addressed in one of your first posts. I know that's not your intention, but not mentioning them still makes that effect.
I brought this up, to show the thought process that made me think that escape would be the resolution. I am not saying this will happen, or could have happened or a what-if scenario. More of what I had expected and how I accept the possibility of neutrality more! In other words, why I am closer to agreeing with you rather than denying that outcome to stick to the escape scenario. But that is the thing, Sanji DID try to bare it all on his own, but with his sacrificial tendencies he even admitted that his journey had come to an end, and that he should just stop fighting.
Okay, I understand you now.
The point is, I found strange Sanji was not expecting/prepared for Luffy to show up, while he should have known that would be the case given his captain's personality and the many times they have plunged into battle for a friend in need. Once it became clear that Sanji had already given up, maybe all the way from Zou, his little bursts of rebellion were merely empty threats. However at the time, those outburst made me think he was going to do something.
I agree. But that's Oda's fault for thinking that he can recycle elements from Nami and Robin's surprise arcs for a third time at this point in the story. He can get too formulaic.
Exactly, I was just commenting on how I had wished for something along those lines and that I was under the impression that his vocal outburst would have tangible actions with it. Again, emphasis on impression. Moving on.
Fair enough. I will try again.
Okay.
And I have not denied any of that with the scenario I propose. I included the idea of a second flashback coming up even to deal with many of these instances. Pound can escape with Chiffon, Pekoms can have his wake up call and escape with Pedro. I cannot give you a detailed answer on how all of these could be resolved though.
I never saw you suggest a second flashback in your original post. I don't think that running away while Big Mom is still in power in her own kingdom with none of her bitterness swept away is good payoff for these characters' plotlines.
Like I mentioned if it is from WCI to Baratie then Germa have the advantage in regards to their methods of transportation. IF someone is already there, do you expect a scout, or a ship filled with capable soldiers to take on the Baratie. While this scenario is highly likely, it does not exclude from the fact that maybe no one is there at the moment, and the threat is the same, because Big Mom could send someone in that location, and how is anyone going to communicate that to the Baratie. The threat is still there, if the latter scenario is the case then there is time for Germa to go to their aid.
That's still in a whole other ocean, and they have to go over the Red Line to get to the Baratie. It would take too long, whether they can defeat the threat or not.
No no no, they told him enough AND knew that Fishman Island might not be safe anymore after Jimbe left Big Mom's crew. They know the dangers of Jimbe's actions and are even covering Fishman Island for him to be free.
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No, but that does not mean he will leave the Straw Hats to deal with the problem. He already sent a messenger to Fishman Island to give warning about the upcoming dangers.
Except that Jimbei is worried. And if he makes it out of Whole Cake Island while Big Mom is still in power after the assassination plan doesn't work, he is going to make going back to Fishman Island a priority. The story can't have Fishman Island threatening to get destroyed yet before Wano Country. Otherwise, it makes the Straw Hats look apathetic and irresponsible. If Jimbei is going to be a Straw Hat, Fishman Island needs to be safe beyond a doubt in his eyes. At least for a while.
Oh yeah, how could I forg…BIG NEWS MORGAN, that is how. If Luffy declares Fishman Island as his territory and Big Mom's forces do attack Fishman Island or the Baratie, then with the news out, the fleet does not need a word from Luffy to act, they would selfishly go to Luffy's allies aid. This could even give the Baratie time to prepare if the details about the wedding are also revealed.
It won't be quick enough if Big Mom already has members present in East Blue.
Yeah it could, but now it is almost getting to the Bonney situation. Everything could be memory manipulation, or we choose to think that because we want Pudding's relevance to be shown. But if it is indeed Pudding then how does that work into her potential redemption.
I expect it to be linked to her abuse and Pudding using it as a means of somehow protecting herself or somebody else. At this juncture, I have no idea. But I can see Oda spinning it in a way that still has her be redeemable.
Mainly, if Luffy will not beat down the emperors then I would like to see different ways he bests them. With Kaido it is obvious, with Shanks, well lately I imagine a game like scenario, a treasure hunt. Blackbeard doesn't count. So how does Luffy proof that he bested Big Mom. Well with what we have seen, it seems he cannot through physical means. Okay, but there has also been quite the emphasis on Big Mom's crew, would it not be interesting that with Luffy declaring his territory, it is his allies that have to deal with Big Mom's forces, therefore allowing the fleet to get stronger and assert their relevance in the power struggle in the New World. That is why escaping feels really nice, because from Luffy's side he messed with her operations and escaped her territory. The backlash from it can be handled by his fleet which also ties in with your point on Luffy not dealing with everything and making it more organic and making the world alive.
Luffy's proof is getting Sanji back, Jimbei to join his crew, two Poneglyph scripts, and one Road Poneglyph script. He got all of these things by outsmarting Big Mom and pushing her into a corner. The fleet does not need to get stronger, and Big Mom's forces would be too much for them if the Sweet Generals are sent out. And they typically are, seeing as how they are rarely ever together in the same place. I wouldn't mind seeing his fleet do stuff, but… I can't see it. But hey, if Oda surprises us and has one of them actually be in East Blue coincidentally to save Zeff, then I wouldn't mind.
@Count:
I'm cool with that ratio, especially since he fought with Big Mom in contrast to Shanks and Whitebeard. And I think Teach should count, even if he's ascending the ranks.
True I shouldn't discard Blackbeard. Either way it was just a remark.
I don't think that running away while Big Mom is still in power in her own kingdom with none of her bitterness swept away is good payoff for these characters' plotlines.
Yeah, but how much of that power will crumble in this arc is something that we have yet to see. Obviously I am banking on it being significant enough that she either needs to rebuild or can at most just send someone to chase after Bege or Luffy, or Bege and Luffy.
That's still in a whole other ocean, and they have to go over the Red Line to get to the Baratie. It would take too long, whether they can defeat the threat or not.
It would take too long, but if Big Mom does not have anyone around the Baratie, in other words her scouts returned after they collected the information then it would take longer for Big Mom's forces to get there than the Germa considering the giant snails the latter have to transport them around. When it comes to defeating a threat, I highly doubt that after the events of the wedding [as I imagine them ending] Big Mom would be able to send one of her sweet commanders. At most she would send someone of Bobbin's caliber which the Germa should be able to handle.
Except that Jimbei is worried.
Well of course he is, I am saying he has placed his worries and trust in the hands of Alladin and the rest of the Sun Pirates to alert Fishman Island. The third page even has Alladin saying: "I am taking the boat to Fishman Island, you are worried right?".
And if he makes it out of Whole Cake Island while Big Mom is still in power after the assassination plan doesn't work, he is going to make going back to Fishman Island a priority. The story can't have Fishman Island threatening to get destroyed yet before Wano Country. Otherwise, it makes the Straw Hats look apathetic and irresponsible. If Jimbei is going to be a Straw Hat, Fishman Island needs to be safe beyond a doubt in his eyes. At least for a while.
I do not think Jimbe would have gone through with this if he did not trust Alladin, and I have already mentioned that I imagine Big Mom's forces getting crippled even further. Although I find that what was presented during the dialogue between the Sun pirates and Jimbe enough for Jimbe to not make Fishman Island his priority even in the worst case scenario, I am not denying his concern. Even if Big Mom was killed, Jimbe must know that it would be impossible for the alliance to take on Big Mom's crew entirely. Because it is very unlikely that even if Big Mom remained in power she would go herself to FI to destroy it, the threat to the Fishmen was still present because Big Mom's crew could retaliate against them seeking revenge.
It won't be quick enough if Big Mom already has members present in East Blue.
Yeah I agree with this, but given that we don't know if they are still there or not, one can dream.
Luffy's proof is getting Sanji back, Jimbei to join his crew, two Poneglyph scripts, and one Road Poneglyph script. He got all of these things by outsmarting Big Mom and pushing her into a corner.
Those are all proof that get pegged down if Big Mom allows them to go at least from my perspective.
The fleet does not need to get stronger, and Big Mom's forces would be too much for them if the Sweet Generals are sent out. And they typically are, seeing as how they are rarely ever together in the same place. I wouldn't mind seeing his fleet do stuff, but… I can't see it. But hey, if Oda surprises us and has one of them actually be in East Blue coincidentally to save Zeff, then I wouldn't mind.
Not only did the narrator say that they would all grow in their own way before uniting under the banner again, but if they were struggling that much against the Doffy family, a crew that had gotten comfortable in their power, then yes, they need to get stronger. If Big Mom sends a sweet commander on a chase it would be directly for Luffy or Bege, like he did with Urouge. I would imagine that the forces she sends to family members are not on that caliber.
Again, no one has yet to explain what an adolescent Pudding would gain from erasing memories Big Mom is already not even privy to.
I'm loving how much people are disturbed by this though, we're making up any ol excuse even if doesn't make a lick of sense. There are clearly little pools of blood on the ground , at least two. You can tell because it's smeared around the edges. Clothes don t smear…
Big Mom could have asked Pudding to alter her memory in order to get rid of her trauma. If that's the case, maybe Pudding changed a few other things too.
one of the things I'm liking too is that since Bege is committing open betrayal, his life may be spared but would no longer be entrusted with his 'rook' position and will be along with Chiffon exiled from WCI, that's another potential ally to fight Kaido in Wano.
If Miss Bakkin wasn't so short I'd have assumed she is Carmel's sister or daughter carrying the family's business and taking in Weevile and deceiving him. She could still be related to her somehow. I guess Weevile is also strong born or he was experimented on(all those stitches).
What I do not understand is how Linlin ate everyone while remaining in the same position, and how did she grab them fast enough that no one, even the people on the other side of table did not move at all?
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She is big, but to get to Mother Carmel she would have had to move.
@K.:
She is big, but to get to Mother Carmel she would have had to move.
Not more than to get the Croquembouche at the other end of the plate.
Not more than to get the Croquembouche at the other end of the plate.
Slight difference between the candy and a human is that one is able to move. Also, she could just bring the plate closer to her. Not to mention that Linlin could have not held every kid at the same time. When she was trying to rip the longarm kid she had her hands full.
I still put my bet on that part of the memory being altered.
I still put my bet on that part of the memory being altered.
I keep seeing this but the thing is, as many have pointed out, this is NOT Big Mom's memories. This was told from an omniscient narrator. This would be like saying (back when we were wondering if Sabo was still alive,) "Well maybe Luffy's memories were altered and that's why he doesn't remember that Sabo ended up on Dragon's ship!"… it doesn't work. when you have a narrator who is omniscient, it has nothing to do, at all, with people's memories.
The main issue I have with any other theory other than she ate them, is that it brings up a bunch of unnecessary questions.
For example, if they were all kidnapped right in front of her... why didn't they take Linlin as well? Or come back for her at some point? And why take Carmel? aannndd... where did they take everyone? CP0 knows that Linlin was the big prize that mother Carmel wanted to sell. It makes no sense, at all, for them to not try to take her while she's eating. Or at least not come back for her. They KNEW where she was and she was only a child. True, a strong one, but the government wouldn't just give up on that just for no reason. And most of all, how did she get Carmel's devil fruit power?... This is the big question. Sure you can say "Well maybe by the biggest coincidence in the history of anything ever she just so happened to eat that fruit!" No, sorry, not buying it
And the memory altered thing... again we have an omniscient narrator. If it doesn't make sense to say "Luffy just doesn't remember Sabo being on Dragon's ship" it makes no sense for Mama to have a memory altered to something she didn't know happened. I mean unless she figured it out at some point, idk, but Pudding has nothing to gain from that. I have this distinct feeling though, that Big Mom is going to somehow find out what she did, and THEN her memories will be altered... and perhaps her memories of the Strawhats will be altered as well and she'll ally with them. Just a thought.
anyway, i know I hardly post but I wanted to say that.
'Narrator' is showing only those memories which Big Mom remembers.I am not saying that the birthday party didn't happen or at the end Big Mom didn't find her alone.It all happened, but something more happened…..
'Narrator' is showing only those memories which Big Mom remembers.
She remembered Mother Carmel going to CP0 saying she was going to sell the children?
She remembered Mother Carmel going to CP0 saying she was going to sell the children?
I think it would be more correct that the last portion shows BM's perspective. Everything after the first narration box.
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@K.:
Slight difference between the candy and a human is that one is able to move. Also, she could just bring the plate closer to her. Not to mention that Linlin could have not held every kid at the same time. When she was trying to rip the longarm kid she had her hands full.
Also, let's not forget Caramel has a devil fruit, which she already used to help stop BM's rampage once. I'm not saying it would have been enough by itself, just that it wouldn't be so easy to just gulp Caramel down.
The possibility that BM ate everyone presumes that they all somehow stood still while she was doing it.
She was eating kinda fast, idk if you noticed. If she did it quick enough, they couldn't get away. Also doesn't them being kidnapped ALSO mean they just stood there?
She was eating kinda fast, idk if you noticed. If she did it quick enough, they couldn't get away. Also doesn't them being kidnapped ALSO mean they just stood there?
Well, there go my doubts. Thanks for clearing it up. :ninja:
And why is them being kidnapped the only possible option? Maybe Caramel and the kids are the ones that orchestrated the plot themselves. Stuff her face with semla, get away while she's busy, CP0 come to pick her up. Maybe Caramel pulled a double con, fooling the kids, while they were fooling BM. She said she wanted to retire.
I don't know, there's plenty of food for thought here. Why limit yourself with "it looks as if she could have eaten them all, I'll just turn my imagination off"?
Caramel got her money and had to make it sure that Linlin wont look for them when they left her to retire with the other kids. The CP0 will arrive and tell that kind of story to convince Linlin and make her believe she's a dangerous person and has to have a proper guidance but viola she became a pirate. Just like Luffy lole. I think this is what happened or what will happen.
One thing that bugs me is.. Caramel's power to summon Prometheus. If it was indeed coz of the Soul devil fruit that Linlin currently have, there has to be a way to transfer her ability to Linlin at some point of the story. Or Linlin just ate them all. lmao.
@ITaeyeon:
Caramel got her money and had to make it sure that Linlin wont look for them when they left her to retire with the other kids. The CP0 will arrive and tell that kind of story to convince Linlin and make her believe she's a dangerous person and has to have a proper guidance but viola she became a pirate. Just like Luffy lole. I think this is what happened or what will happen.
One thing that bugs me is.. Caramel's power to summon Prometheus. If it was indeed coz of the Soul devil fruit that Linlin currently have, there has to be a way to transfer her ability to Linlin at some point of the story. Or Linlin just ate them all. lmao.
I don't see how BM eating Caramel would net her the devil fruit, unless Caramel was holding some fruit at the moment of dying. Inside BM's mouth. We were shown the essence transfers to the closest fruit of same type. What difference does it make if a devil fruit user is being shot, stabbed or muched down inside someone's mouth? We have to go with what we know and try to construct the story from there. But seeing how a lot of things aren't shown and/or don't make sense, it's very likely Pudding or at least someone tampered with BM's memory.
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Btw, nobody but BM is shown actually eating semla. Only the prince seems like he has something in his mouth in one panel. But why are they all stuffing semla in her face?
And why is them being kidnapped the only possible option? Maybe Caramel and the kids are the ones that orchestrated the plot themselves. Stuff her face with semla, get away while she's busy, CP0 come to pick her up. Maybe Caramel pulled a double con, fooling the kids, while they were fooling BM. She said she wanted to retire.
She left Elbaf and move to a deserted island to keep Big Mom. I don't see her giving up on selling Big Mom all of the sudden. Plus Carmel having the fruit without Big Mom knowledge is a reason why she should die close to Big Mom so that the fruit reincarnate in the island somewhere and Big Mom eats it later.
As for the why only Big Mom is eating the Selma. It was her birthday so they gave her a plate of her favorite sweet. Carmel seems all about giving to Big Mom desires.
She left Elbaf and move to a deserted island to keep Big Mom. I don't see her giving up on selling Big Mom all of the sudden. Plus Carmel having the fruit without Big Mom knowledge is a reason why she should die close to Big Mom so that the fruit reincarnate in the island somewhere and Big Mom eats it later.
As for the why only Big Mom is eating the Selma. It was her birthday so they gave her a plate of her favorite sweet. Carmel seems all about giving to Big Mom desires.
Who said anything about giving up on selling.
They drug BM with semla, go and hide, CP0 comes to collect BM, Caramel and children return (or whatever she planned out).
That could have been the plan, anyway. In the meantime something went wrong.
And what's the deal with CP0. There's no way that plot thread would have just been cut. They'd come after BM sooner or later. Not like they could have forgotten, or didn't even bother to check if she was there.