Chapter 851: Tab End
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Goat Overlord :D :D :D :D
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nothing like starting my New Year's with a mouthful of Goat Overlord.
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Who the hell named this chapter Goat Overlord?
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Who the hell got Goat overlord for the chapter title?
It was the name of the translator from Jaimini, apparently.
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Gonna translate this chapter for fun. Literally means Cigarette Butt. But I guess from the chapter Sanji's cigarette is wet. So Moist Cigarette makes sense.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It was the name of the translator from Jaimini, apparently.
So they put it as the chapter title? HAHA
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Damp Cigarette or even Cigawet sounds better than Moist Cigarette. That just sounds like something I don't wanna even think about. :sick:
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What reason people have to think she is a good one to associate with her if she can just decide to lure you with fake promises and take what she wants. There's simply no reason to ally with her willingly if she is willingly to kill a business partners because she got greedy.
This is redundant. You'll have to ask Oda that. There's no point in you arguing with me over this. The fact of the matter is, that's exactly what she's going to do and your lack of acceptance doesn't matter because it won't change anything. You & Count Mario both have your own personal perceived versions of BM's character that conflicts with the reality of the situation. If the author of the series is telling you that you're wrong, there's no point in arguing with him.
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Hey guys, first time translating a whole chapter or whole anything. But thought I'd put it here. It took me 6-7 hours, lost track of time. Just doing for practice, but thought I might put it here for people to read. Not better than Viz or anything, but here you go :) This is just the panel by panel dialogue translation I got myself.
One Piece Chapter 851 - Cigarette Butt (Cigawet, Damp Cigarette as suggested by others)
! Page 1.
! 1. Ahahaha!! Tomorrow all six of the vinsmoke family / will be taken in our hive like wasps.2. The hall / will be stained in red.
3. And please be careful when you die ok? / If the wedding cake gets covered in blood
4. MAMA will ragingly tear the hall to pieces!! Page 2.
! 5. This is a Walker 36 Calliber style Percussion Lock / The bullets nickname: "Candy Jacketed"
6. It has the ability to go all the way through back of a shielded, armoured warrior!!
7. Perfect isn't it?8. You guys have "Iron bodies" too…!!
9. Fufufu, I can't wait for tomorrow! Pointing this gun at the face of Sanji who trusts me.! Page 3.
! 10. Kyahaha! That I can't wait for!! [Nitro the Jelly] [Rabian the Carpet]
11. He really thinks you're in love with him!
12. Fufu! This is really worth seeing!13. I wonder if he'll make a face like this
14. Gya~haha. That's good!
15. What about like this?
16. Pu…Pudding-Chan
17. Gahahahaha!!18. Hey, what's wrong? / Turning away at your brothers situation. AHAHAHA!
19. Do you wanna know what he said when he propozed to me?
20. This is the best !! Also when he peeled off his mask and saw his atrocious face!!! Page 4.
! 21. I knew if I showed him tears it was an easy win! Stupid guy <3
22. "I won't make our marriage hell!"
23. (As soon as I cried) He then quickly hugged me24. Then looking like this he squeazed this out...
25. I wubve you~ Lets get mawwied ~
26. Gyahahaha, just like that, just like that!!
27. "Get married (pffft)"! Page 5.
! 28. Such an ugly proposal!
29. Haaaa, how laughable / Who would get married to that guy!! What a failure!30. At least give me a prince!
! Page 6/7 (Spread)
! [Treasure Room]
! 31. Why do you get up?32. "Soul King"!!
33. You're not here for Sanji… So you want a copy of that "stone"?34. Well, Sanji-San? He's a kind person.
35. So I already thought about Sanji not returning to us.
36. I don't know what type of trap you guys have set up but...37. No matter how kind Sanji is,
38. He won't be shaken for whoevers sake he's decided to make a sacrifice for!39. Our captain is a guy with his desire to keep on pushing to his absolute limits no matter what!
40. That decisions is only for those two young guys to decide
41. HAHAHAHAHA, Is that so? / So... you had nothing to do and went for the stone? (I was also thinking she said here "Or the only thing that won't happen is you don't get the stone?" お前やる事なくて”石”)
を？
42. No...!! The worst that could happen was when Sanji decided to not return / we just don't want him to blame himself.
43. I can tell you we expect to get something big from this trip.44. MAMAMAMA. The absolute worst you guys expect is very low.
45. Sanji not returning!? That's the worst!? So no one's gonna die during this trip?
45. EVERYONE may die!!
46. Young lady, where's the idiot that put dying in the plan?! Page 8.
! [Mirror World]
! 47. Weeeeeee~ Weeeeeee~ Stop~!
48. Weeeeeee~ Stohohop49. Don't tickle me!!
50. I tell you! I tell you!
51. Alright, stop carrot.
52. Hurry up and answer, where's the castle's mirror?
53. Weee~hi- / I won't forget this…(ze ze)54. I don't remember each and every one!!
55. Maybe if you asked the mirrors!
56. Ask?
57. I know exactly what everyone is displaying.
58. Ehhh?! Page 9.
! 59. Mirror, Mirror, WHO is the castle mirror!!?60. Yup that's me
61. Me!
62. Me too!!
63. I'm the mirror in Master Gallete's closet.
64. I'm the hand mirror on the second floor guest rooms.
65. I'm the mirror on the forth floor's Women's toilet!!
65. The mirrors replied!!!66. Which one of you is reflecting Luffy, Nami, Brook and Sanji!!?
67. Who?
68. Which guy?
69. Sanji-Sama just went past me
70. Huh
71. Leave it to me Chobro
72. I'm good at portraits!! Page 10.
! 73. Well then / Big sister73. It'd be really bad if you died from a large loss of blood.
74. Moreover, you saw my "bad" form, so it'd be really bad if I was exposed75. Eh?
76. What?
77. Just sit still, it'll be over soon.! Page 11.
! 78. This is the Memo Memo Fruit's ability.
79. Inside your head you have a record film of / scary things, sad memories, past things you want to forget right?80. I put a soldiers memory of a stray bullet here.
81. Eddited! (Editto)
82. and.. finished!83. FUFUFU. I "cut" your memory of me now.
84. Lets have a fun wedding tomorrow!
85. Soldier~ Take her to the medical room.
86. Hei! Page 12.
! [Prisoner Library Room]
! 87. Gyaaaaaaa
88. Luffy, stop seriously!!
89. Scary Scary!The blood is really disgusting
90. Owowow
91. What an absurd guy.
92. Just a little more~~~~~93. Oi you!!
94. Tonight i'm gonna make you spit out Lola's where abouts
95. Eventually you'll say it.
96. No way! There's now way we'd sell out our friend!
97. Torture time
98. No! Don't say that so easily!!! Page 13.
! 99. Well then, once in every five seconds I'll shoot you with this crossbow if you don't say anything.
100. Ha!? What did you say!? That's fast!! I'll die!!
101. Well, if you say something, there's no problems.
102. Oi Wart Head, I won't let you!
103. Don't worry Nami!! I'll rip off my arms after 5 seconds
104. Ehh??105. No, either of them isn't good.
106. How selfish to say that!
107. O-i!
108. Is anyone there?109. Eh?
110. Ah! Hey hey, you're not supposed to leave the castle now
111. Whereever you go there's chaos.. don't have to be so formal
112. Sorry for the opera but..
113. 5000 Tile…! Page 14/15
! 114. Justice Fist!
115. Jinbei!
116. Why are you guys here?
117. Luffy! Nami!
118. I heard you were caught... It's good that you're ok. Save story time for later.
119. First, do you wanna get out of there?
120. Yeeaaahhhhh!!–- Update From New Post Merge ---
For the young lady part.
I laughed when reading the Japanese version. Because brook says literally 死ぬ事を計画に入れるバカがどこにいますか お嬢さん
Which means literally "Where's the idiot that put dying in the plan, young lady". Also I think that Brook called Big Mom a Young lady because big mom practically called them young kids in the same page.In regards to puddings move she used :（編集）which is read normally as Henshuu, is given katakana english reading name for the move, so it's read as Editto (Edit).
Just interesting points I found in this chapter.
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Hey guys, first time translating a whole chapter or whole anything. But thought I'd put it here. It took me 6-7 hours, lost track of time. Just doing for practice, but thought I might put it here for people to read. Not better than Viz or anything, but here you go :) This is just the panel by panel dialogue translation I got myself.
One Piece Chapter 851 - Cigarette Butt (Cigawet, Damp Cigarette as suggested by others)
Nice translation! made more sense than MS's!! I hope you can keep doing this for every chapter from now on and eventually make your own thread.
Take your time, we're not in a hurry(some of us wait for Cnet's translation which is at earliest, available 2 weeks after Ms's release and 1 week after VIZ's).
Thanks a lot! appreciate your translation and efforts, please do keep it up. -
Hey guys, first time translating a whole chapter or whole anything. But thought I'd put it here. It took me 6-7 hours, lost track of time. Just doing for practice, but thought I might put it here for people to read. Not better than Viz or anything, but here you go :) This is just the panel by panel dialogue translation I got myself.
One Piece Chapter 851 - Cigarette Butt (Cigawet, Damp Cigarette as suggested by others)
! Page 1.
! 1. Ahahaha!! Tomorrow all six of the vinsmoke family / will be taken in our hive like wasps.2. The hall / will be stained in red.
3. And please be careful when you die ok? / If the wedding cake gets covered in blood
4. MAMA will ragingly tear the hall to pieces!! Page 2.
! 5. This is a Walker 36 Calliber style Percussion Lock / The bullets nickname: "Candy Jacketed"
6. It has the ability to go all the way through back of a shielded, armoured warrior!!
7. Perfect isn't it?8. You guys have "Iron bodies" too…!!
9. Fufufu, I can't wait for tomorrow! Pointing this gun at the face of Sanji who trusts me.! Page 3.
! 10. Kyahaha! That I can't wait for!! [Nitro the Jelly] [Rabian the Carpet]
11. He really thinks you're in love with him!
12. Fufu! This is really worth seeing!13. I wonder if he'll make a face like this
14. Gya~haha. That's good!
15. What about like this?
16. Pu…Pudding-Chan
17. Gahahahaha!!18. Hey, what's wrong? / Turning away at your brothers situation. AHAHAHA!
19. Do you wanna know what he said when he propozed to me?
20. This is the best !! Also when he peeled off his mask and saw his atrocious face!!! Page 4.
! 21. I knew if I showed him tears it was an easy win! Stupid guy <3
22. "I won't make our marriage hell!"
23. (As soon as I cried) He then quickly hugged me24. Then looking like this he squeazed this out...
25. I wubve you~ Lets get mawwied ~
26. Gyahahaha, just like that, just like that!!
27. "Get married (pffft)"! Page 5.
! 28. Such an ugly proposal!
29. Haaaa, how laughable / Who would get married to that guy!! What a failure!30. At least give me a prince!
! Page 6/7 (Spread)
! [Treasure Room]
! 31. Why do you get up?32. "Soul King"!!
33. You're not here for Sanji… So you want a copy of that "stone"?34. Well, Sanji-San? He's kind person.
35. So I already thought about Sanji not returning to us.
36. I don't know what type of trap you guys have set up but...37. No matter how kind Sanji is,
38. He won't be shaken for whoevers sake he's decided to make a sacrifice for!39. Our captain is a guy with his desire to keep on pushing to his absolute limits no matter what!
40. That's the conclusion you two young kids have decided on?
41. HAHAHAHAHA, Is that so? / So... you had nothing to do and went for the stone? (I was also thinking she said here "Or the only thing that won't happen is you don't get the stone?" お前やる事なくて”石”)
を？
42. No...!! The worst that could happen was when Sanji decided to not return / we just don't want him to blame himself.
43. I can tell you we expect to get something big from this trip.44. MAMAMAMA. The absolute worst you guys expect is very low.
45. Sanji not returning!? That's the worst!? So no one's gonna die during this trip?
45. EVERYONE may die!!
46. Young lady, where's the idiot that put dying in the plan?! Page 8.
! [Mirror World]
! 47. Weeeeeee~ Weeeeeee~ Stop~!
48. Weeeeeee~ Stohohop49. Don't tickle me!!
50. I tell you! I tell you!
51. Alright, stop carrot.
52. Hurry up and answer, where's the castle's mirror?
53. Weee~hi- / I won't forget this…(ze ze)54. I don't remember each and every one!!
55. Maybe if you asked the mirrors!
56. Ask?
57. I know exactly what everyone is displaying.
58. Ehhh?! Page 9.
! 59. Mirror, Mirror, WHO is the castle mirror!!?60. Yup that's me
61. Me!
62. Me too!!
63. I'm the mirror in Master Gallete's closet.
64. I'm the hand mirror on the second floor guest rooms.
65. I'm the mirror on the forth floor's Women's toilet!!
65. The mirrors replied!!!66. Which one of you is reflecting Luffy, Nami, Brook and Sanji!!?
67. Who?
68. Which guy?
69. Sanji-Sama just went past me
70. Huh
71. Leave it to me Chobro
72. I'm good at portraits!! Page 10.
! 73. Well then / Big sister73. It'd be really bad if you died from a large loss of blood.
74. Moreover, you saw my "bad" form, so it'd be really bad if I was exposed75. Eh?
76. What?
77. Just sit still, it'll be over soon.! Page 11.
! 78. This is the Memo Memo Fruit's ability.
79. Inside your head you have a record film of / scary things, sad memories, past things you want to forget right?80. I put a soldiers memory of a stray bullet here.
81. Eddited! (Editto)
82. and.. finished!83. FUFUFU. I "cut" your memory of me now.
84. Lets have a fun wedding tomorrow!
85. Soldier~ Take her to the medical room.
86. Hei! Page 12.
! [Prisoner Library Room]
! 87. Gyaaaaaaa
88. Luffy, stop seriously!!
89. Scary Scary!The blood is really disgusting
90. Owowow
91. What an absurd guy.
92. Just a little more~~~~~93. Oi you!!
94. Tonight i'm gonna make you spit out Lola's where abouts
95. Eventually you'll say it.
96. No way! There's now way we'd sell out our friend!
97. Torture time
98. No! Don't say that so easily!!! Page 13.
! 99. Well then, once in every five seconds I'll shoot you with this crossbow if you don't say anything.
100. Ha!? What did you say!? That's fast!! I'll die!!
101. Well, if you say something, there's no problems.
102. Oi Wart Head, I won't let you!
103. Don't worry Nami!! I'll rip off my arms after 5 seconds
104. Ehh??105. No, either of them isn't good.
106. How selfish to say that!
107. O-i!
108. Is anyone there?109. Eh?
110. Ah! Hey hey, you're not supposed to leave the castle now
111. Whereever you go there's chaos.. don't have to be so formal
112. Sorry for the opera but..
113. 5000 Tile…! Page 14/15
! 114. Justice Fist!
115. Jinbei!
116. Why are you guys here?
117. Luffy! Nami!
118. I heard you were caught... It's good that you're ok. Save story time for later.
119. First, do you wanna get out of there?
120. Yeeaaahhhhh!!–- Update From New Post Merge ---
For the young lady part.
I laughed when reading the Japanese version. Because brook says literally 死ぬ事を計画に入れるバカがどこにいますか お嬢さん
Which means literally "Where's the idiot that put dying in the plan, young lady". Also I think that Brook called Big Mom a Young lady because big mom practically called them young kids in the same page.In regards to puddings move she used :（編集）which is read normally as Henshuu, is given katakana english reading name for the move, so it's read as Editto (Edit).
Just interesting points I found in this chapter.
Nice translation, man! It's straight to the point and doesn't add any unnecessary fluff like MS. I can say without a doubt in my mind that people would love it if you continued this. Although, if you never did plan on doing this every chapter, I think everyone would respect your decision if you don't want to.
The face of a Straw Hat. -
Speaking of personality inconsistencies I wonder how big the possibility is that Pudding removed a few key memories from Big Mom regarding Lola leaving would be. It seems odd that Lola would even give Nami the vivre card if she new her mother would possibly put a hit out on her for breaking a propsal.
But then that adds even more questions as to what she would gain from tampering with Big Mom's memories. I mean yeah some of the kids seem weirdly psychopathic, but generally their actions haven't been two-faced. Then there's also the question of how far her power goes. She can remove memories but can she edit or add?
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Speaking of personality inconsistencies I wonder how big the possibility is that Pudding removed a few key memories from Big Mom regarding Lola leaving would be. It seems odd that Lola would even give Nami the vivre card if she new her mother would possibly put a hit out on her for breaking a propsal.
But then that adds even more questions as to what she would gain from tampering with Big Mom's memories. I mean yeah some of the kids seem weirdly psychopathic, but generally their actions haven't been two-faced. Then there's also the question of how far her power goes. She can remove memories but can she edit or add?
She edited some random soldier over herself to cover the plothole of how Reiju got shot, and cut the monologing.
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@The:
Nice translation, man! It's straight to the point and doesn't add any unnecessary fluff like MS. I can say without a doubt in my mind that people would love it if you continued this. Although, if you never did plan on doing this every chapter, I think everyone would respect your decision if you don't want to.
Nice translation! made more sense than MS's!! I hope you can keep doing this for every chapter from now on and eventually make your own thread.
Take your time, we're not in a hurry(some of us wait for Cnet's translation which is at earliest, available 2 weeks after Ms's release and 1 week after VIZ's).
Thanks a lot! appreciate your translation and efforts, please do keep it up.Thanks guys I appreciate it :)
Actually I wanted to translate maybe 1 or 2 chapters a week so you can expect some more to come, rather than doing online for a website I can do here at my own pace. So I could do the weekly ones and then do some other ones but it's for practice, there are probably some little mistakes here and there so if someone picked it out I'd be appreciative, like screwing up where the dialogue is directed at or little grammar things. But it's practice anyway, I learnt a lot from doing this chapter.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Speaking of personality inconsistencies I wonder how big the possibility is that Pudding removed a few key memories from Big Mom regarding Lola leaving would be. It seems odd that Lola would even give Nami the vivre card if she new her mother would possibly put a hit out on her for breaking a propsal.
But then that adds even more questions as to what she would gain from tampering with Big Mom's memories. I mean yeah some of the kids seem weirdly psychopathic, but generally their actions haven't been two-faced. Then there's also the question of how far her power goes. She can remove memories but can she edit or add?
What doesn't make sense to me is why attack Reiju in the first place and then cut our her memory. Unless Reiju figured out what was up
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This is redundant. You'll have to ask Oda that.
Ask Oda what? I did not ask a question.
There's no point in you arguing with me over this.
Well. You could say the same of the manga forum. You're arguing she isn't backstabbing people she lured into her territory under false pretense and plan to kill by surprise. I think that's as clear of a backstabbing as you can get.
The fact of the matter is, that's exactly what she's going to do and your lack of acceptance doesn't matter because it won't change anything.
She is going to backstab a business partner? Yes I know. I said as much in the post quoted and later. I don't accept? I'm not sure what give you that impression. Maybe because I call it backstabbing. I'm merely disappointed in Big Mom considering both her usual ways and the future consequences. Nothing that would hinder my acceptance.
Of course as reader I can't change the content what I'm reading. Thankfully as a reader I can still be disappointed or questioned the logic a character use.
You & Count Mario both have your own personal perceived versions of BM's character that conflicts with the reality of the situation.
I have no real idea what Mario said but my perceived notion doesn't conflict with reality. She has plenty of island who made deal with her, makes alliances by marriage, Pedro survived through a deal, so did Pekoms, she lost a chance at great power because a marriage went south, Jimbei had to make a deal to leave the island. I'm not sure how any goes against my image of her as a bussinesswoman (Shanks is the party guy and Whitebeard a family man). She just seems to believe she won't need dealing anymore once she has the technology.
If the author of the series is telling you that you're wrong, there's no point in arguing with him.
Depends if you're talking action which the author control or more philosophic . But sure Oda could make Oda sprout wings in the next chapter, it would be weird but a fact of the manga.
You aren't the author tho and we aren't talking if Big Mom plan to do so(she does). I merely pointed out she was throwing her reputation away and backstabbing a business partner.
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She is going to backstab a business partner? Yes I know. I said as much in the post quoted and later. I don't accept? I'm not sure what give you that impression. Maybe because I call it backstabbing. I'm merely disappointed in Big Mom considering both her usual ways and the future consequences. Nothing that would hinder my acceptance.
Of course as reader I can't change the content what I'm reading. Thankfully as a reader I can still be disappointed or questioned the logic a character use.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying. From what we know about Big Mom's character, with so many examples of her being a power-hungry, yet peculiarly respectful businesswoman, betraying the Vinsmokes doesn't make sense. And it is indeed a flat-out unprovoked betrayal that doesn't seem to earn her anything specific that she wouldn't already get (and more) from the marriage proceeding as planned. Just because Oda, the author, wrote this twist does not mean I have to find it a satisfying example story or character writing without flaw. Especially after how uniquely entertaining she has been due to her ethically complex mentality compared to other villains throughout the series who always rely on sabotage without any qualms. We've had five on-panel deals seen between Big Mom and various characters, so it's pretty safe to say that's enough to tell at least some facets she has than just labeling her as crazy like some users seem to generically label her as.
I trust Oda to give an understandable reason, probably when we see the Charlotte Family-centric flashback and learn more about that deal Lola messed up and how it might have affected Linlin. But for now, it's both confusing and disappointing.
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The pieces for Mama to betray the Vinsmokes is there as well. In fact this arc seems heavily focused on characters breaking their common habits. Or at least the potential to break them. Sanji, Jimbe, Mama it seems all of them will undergo some sort of change.
On the other hand, if you want to get convoluted, we could say that Pudding is altering Mama's memories and making her remember a plan she didn't want in the first place. That is, Linlin was honestly going through the wedding, but Pudding has been playig with her mind, to furher her own agend. To be honest we have seen four daughters publicly express how they would betray their Mom, but at the end of the day, they know Mama comes out on top of every situation(except Lola), so like Praline said: you can try, but no one lives to see the next day.
Pudding could also be fed up with Mama's rules and how she handles things, and in her own twisted way, wants to help Linlin achieve her goals.
Also to note: Big Mom was not much of a fan of the Vinsmokes to begin with, noticeable by her annoyance with her subordinate fandom.
Hidden:
Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku
Hidden:
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@Tamiel:
The pieces for Mama to betray the Vinsmokes is there as well. In fact this arc seems heavily focused on characters breaking their common habits. Or at least the potential to break them. Sanji, Jimbe, Mama it seems all of them will undergo some sort of change.
On the other hand, if you want to get convoluted, we could say that Pudding is altering Mama's memories and making her remember a plan she didn't want in the first place. That is, Linlin was honestly going through the wedding, but Pudding has been playig with her mind, to furher her own agend. To be honest we have seen four daughters publicly express how they would betray their Mom, but at the end of the day, they know Mama comes out on top of every situation(except Lola), so like Praline said: you can try, but no one lives to see the next day.
Pudding could also be fed up with Mama's rules and how she handles things, and in her own twisted way, wants to help Linlin achieve her goals.
Also to note: Big Mom was not much of a fan of the Vinsmokes to begin with, noticeable by her annoyance with her subordinate fandom.
I agree on the thematic perspective. And I also noticed how Big Mom reacted to that soldier being a fanboy. But it still doesn't quell my opinion. But you're right. The PIECES specifically might be there. There's not reasonable answer yet, but one can potentially be weaved, like I've been trying to acknowledge is capable on Oda's behalf.
…I still think it's a disappointing twist though lol. But eh, I'll give it a shot.
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@Count:
From what we know about Big Mom's character, with so many examples of her being a power-hungry, yet peculiarly respectful businesswoman, betraying the Vinsmokes doesn't make sense. And it is indeed a flat-out unprovoked betrayal that doesn't seem to earn her anything specific that she wouldn't already get (and more) from the marriage proceeding as planned.
I think there is a bias in considering Linlin as a businesswoman in the lawful sense. All things considered she really is a crime lord exerting power over her underlings, and so it does not strike me as completely unexpected that she would do business as one. Make deals and uphold them most of the time, but be also prepared to cross your partners and take extreme measures against them. The Vinsmokes are reputed as a family of assassins, so I could hear that from the point of view of a fellow criminal eager to appropriate the very source of their power they are too dangerous to be kept alive and prone to betrayal themselves - which intelligence gathered ever since they came to WCI has all but confirmed.
As for Big Mom's planned betrayal being in character or not, I think it really comes down to how trustworthy we the reader want her to be. Indeed she gave and held her word on multiple occasions, but is that really enough to make it an absolute ? In most situations (protecting Fishman Island, the candy delay, letting Pedro go, releasing Jinbei from her service) she was acting as the utterly dominant party who is doing a favor to a partner of lower standing, sometimes under pain of extreme retribution. Not exactly the portrait of someone I would feel safe dealing with. Inuarashi and Nekomamushi betraying Mononosuke after what we've seen in Zou, now that would feel out of character.
To be fair though, this doesn't make her ay less interesting an antagonist and I do hope that this arc gets resolved through some kind of dangerous bargain instead of the usual "Luffy punch bad meanie".
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I think there is a bias in considering Linlin as a businesswoman in the lawful sense. All things considered she really is a crime lord exerting power over her underlings, and so it does not strike me as completely unexpected that she would do business as one. Make deals and uphold them most of the time, but be also prepared to cross your partners and take extreme measures against them. The Vinsmokes are reputed as a family of assassins, so I could hear that from the point of view of a fellow criminal eager to appropriate the very source of their power they are too dangerous to be kept alive and prone to betrayal themselves - which intelligence gathered ever since they came to WCI has all but confirmed.
And villains can't have their own complex morals? That's really the only main argument I see against Big Mom acting out of character and not logical. The fact that she's a bad guy, as if that's supposed to mean we automatically have to expect her to do heinous acts all of the time. All sorts of characters in this series have loose, morally grey ethics. Why does Big Mom have to be an exception where seeing her turn the other cheek on one of her most charismatic philosophical qualities gets treated with a "well, I guess we should've seen that coming"?
Villains that aren't evil just for the sake of being evil or only fixate on petty greed/power by any means necessary are always interesting because they put a spin on how evaluate moral value. Which presents a unique conflict in both seeing and countering the immoral flaws they have. Whenever that type of interesting premise has the rug swept out from underneath it to basically reveal that they're really bad everything they stood for was a farce, it feels like a huge copout to me because that original premise is ditched. Rather than properly exploring how corruption can take place in unorthodox forms that seem to yield merit in some parts and can prove daunting to overcome with the rules that are set, said rules are thrown out of the window to instead have the story focus on the antagonist just being a jerk. That takes the credibility away from that built-up, unique, inventive ideological and methodical methodical way of thinking. Which shifts the story's message from "here is why such a complex villain is still bad despite how ethical they might be and can still unexpectedly be defeated/proven wrong in a clever way that beats them at their own game" to "they were just irredeemably lacking in moral value to begin with. That interesting built-up conflict was just a facade and you should have expected the antagonist to be a two-bit baddie."
It doesn't matter whether she's a crime lord or whatever type of powerful villain trope she could be described as. There's no precedent or understandable reason shown for her crossing her partners. The only thing about her character specifically hinted to show that she may be a hypocrite/liar in is how she proclaims her kingdom to be a racially harmonious paradise when rare creatures get stuck in library books and Giants aren't around for some reason. But at least that got subtle built-up in how we never saw any Giants in Totland before Judge pointed it out. There's a difference between how Linlin was portrayed compared to the likes of Arlong, who made that promise to Nami of selling Cocoyashi Village to her. Because unlike Big Mom, all we saw Arlong do pillage, subjugate, brag about superiority, and kill. We had no reason to think that he was being honest to Nami. With Big Mom, we actually got build-up with all of the alliances, on-panel deals, knowing that characters as altruistic/wise as Jimbei and Pekoms sought Linlin's help, constant talk from her about valuing ambitions and not needing to hear reasons from the other party, and only being interested in negotiations if there could be an "equal exchange" made. There wasn't bias there. Oda kept hitting us over the head with how surprising and consistent it was for Linlin to follow through. We already saw the whole "villain despicably doesn't live up to their word" shtick with Arlong (as well as Kuro, Don Krieg, CP9, Hody, and Caesar. But at least none of them were substantially built-up to be peculiarly ethical like Big Mom before they made a face-heel turn). We could have had a different type of antagonist dynamic. But no, we have to go back to that familiar tired tactic than explore something new that keeps us getting and portrays villains in a different light of corruption that isn't as outright underhanded out of primitive selfishness.
That's why I'm so disappointed. Statements that try to justify this like "she is a crime lord" or "she's psychotic" are just superficial generalizations that don't take into account all of the possible types of compelling executions characters can have regardless of their moral alignment or story role. Morals are not black and white, and that means it goes without saying that you shouldn't expect that out of characters either in a series that can figuratively and ethically deep as One Piece. Just because there are characters of those broad descriptions that act in certain ways doesn't mean EVERY one of those types of characters should be expected to act like. That's a really narrow way to view characterization potential. Villains can be more than purely hateable punching bags that have their actions match how they fiendishly appear. Villains don't have to just be physical threats, but instead/also epistemological and ethical threats. The fact that Big Mom shares a similar philosophy towards the meaning of piracy/ambitions as Luffy and Teach only makes all of this even more bittersweet.
It's not impossible to have a character turn tail on what they're built-up to be, obviously. There are lots of good stories and villains that fit into that, I'm not bashing every type of villain who pulls a facade-based plot-twist. It's just immensely underwhelming when it's portrayed in a captivating narrative fashion that has loads of potential without any hints about them lying about their principles. Or presented logic for why they would betray the impression they gave us, because there is still literally no understandable reason as of yet what Big Mom gets out of killing the Vinsmokes that she doesn't already get (and more) from the marriage. Something like Big Mom learning off-panel that the Vinsmokes were untrustworthy is just so easy and cheap compared to organically weaving it into the plot.
And she's still a Yonko. I don't see why a group like Germa 66 should intimidate her in the least. Especially if she's willing to get a former Warlord as an ally and treat Luffy as a snot-nosed rookie after all of the progress he's made in the series (which she should know about since she referred to Luffy as Garp's grandson and has an information network that can find out Sanji's origins from the Baratie).
As for Big Mom's planned betrayal being in character or not, I think it really comes down to how trustworthy we the reader want her to be. Indeed she gave and held her word on multiple occasions, but is that really enough to make it an absolute ? In most situations (protecting Fishman Island, the candy delay, letting Pedro go, releasing Jinbei from her service) she was acting as the utterly dominant party who is doing a favor to a partner of lower standing, sometimes under pain of extreme retribution. Not exactly the portrait of someone I would feel safe dealing with. Inuarashi and Nekomamushi betraying Mononosuke after what we've seen in Zou, now that would feel out of character.
The Vinsmokes went to her out of desperation to reclaim North Blue. I don't think that makes the dynamic that different from the likes of the alliance with Jimbei since Big Mom values both that island and Jimbei as valuable resources (not to say that she can't value the cloning technology more so). She's still pretty much the dominant party here too.
I hate to keep making long posts like this as if to make it seem like I'm shoving my opinion down everybody's throat. If you're cool with this type of twist from Big Mom, I can respect that. But labeling all of the supporting evidence in narrative/character analysis details (which really aren't complex to grasp at all) as exhibiting bias or solely being subjective to the reader is pretty demeaning. Plenty of people were disappointed with Doflamingo as an antagonist in Dressrosa with understandable reasons (not that this means I agree with them or not, that's a complex topic all on its own lol), so it's very much possible for Big Mom to be vulnerable to that type of reception depending on how the rest of this arc unfolds.
I'm trying to stay optimistic, and Tamiel has made interesting points about why Big Mom is making this choice (and they're pretty much the only points brought up that see I any sense in). But I'm not going to lie about what I've read and thought about thus far. You have no idea how much I want to come out of Totland saying that it became one of my top five favorite arcs in the whole series, and label Big Mom as my favorite One Piece antagonist besides Blackbeard.
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Really made me laugh out loud.
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Really made me laugh out loud.
! http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170108/b25664a0ea7216c4fe45b427cacba197.jpg
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Don't make me bring this up again, lol
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@Count:
That would be… interesting. The problem with that is that they state clones take months/years to create. So killing them would probably be counterproductive, especially when the Germa 66 soldiers are only loyal to the Vinsmokes. Not that they can't just just take DNA samples from corpses, but I think this getting into territory where we're overthinking this. And it sounds convoluted regardless. Especially when Big Mom's story is hinted so much to be focused around Giants and Gigantification. She doesn't really seem to even be interested in the Vinsmokes that much compared to fanboys like Vito.
I won't deny i'm totally grasping at straws here, I wasn't expecting this turn of events before it came up. I confess i'm more morbidly curious about the ramifications of this than the justification for it. I get the feeling the cloning technology itself would be more interesting if Linlin had it frankly.
@Count:
I would definitely like to see how she would react if she knew about Sanji's abuse. I have a feeling she would actually care a bit about that rather than just brush it off.
Before Pudding threw us that curveball I thought there was a good possibility of seeing that. Linlin really did seem to respond favorably to Sanji being a chef. Sanji being accepted by the matriarch of the Charlotte family for a skill his father never had any appreciation for was a nice contrast I thought. Reminded me of the rapport Sanji had with his own mother. Wouldn't have minded seeing that go somewhere.
I suggested back here:
https://one-piece.com/special/greg/20161019_0651?l=en
That Judge, while a total buttchicken, probably has his side of the story.
It doesn't mean we have to like him but simply understand that despite the Whiplash wannabe mustache, he probably doesn't twirl it.
You make some keen observations there. Judge definitely has positive qualities, that isn't in question. Off the top of my head, I forget which chapter it was, but in a flashback, he does show affection for his children he actually does care about by embracing them. I suppose the fact that he was unwilling to subject those same children to an arranged marriage with the Charlotte family could be another example. I don't think he's pure evil, just close enough that if something bad did happen to him it would be entertaining is all.
“I thought of Godzilla as the embodiment of violence and hatred for mankind, because he was created by atomic energy. He's like a symbol of humanity's complicity in their own destruction. He doesn't have an emotion. He is an emotion.” — Jun Fukuda
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@Count:
A well-detailed argument, but I can't settle on one particular sentence to quote
Don't get me wrong, I don't want Big Mom to be yet another uninteresting two-dimensional villain. I like her as a complex antagonist pretty much for the same reasons that you have been detailing on numerous occasions, yet I don't think betraying the Vinsmokes makes her any less of that. The execution of Evil Pudding and the sudden reveal of the Red Wedding felt forced to me, but the motivations behind it not so much. It is as you say: whether we like it or not, Big Mom has loose, morally grey ethics and has had them from the start. That includes possible betrayal. We've been shown that she enjoys being challenged and agrees to bargains with people who've earned her respect by showing great determination, but at the same time there were also facts that can't be ignored that hint violence is part of her nature and a means she will easily resort to in order to get what she wants - leveling cities that fail to pay extortion money, pillaging for ingredients… Is all of that really so much different from "murder a bunch of royals to steal their advanced tech" ? And, more importantly, does she even respect the Vinsmokes enough to think she owes them to uphold her end of the deal in the first place ?
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@Count:
Not really. I could see a decently strong Foxy awakening his fruit in the form of making giant bubbles/fields like Law where everything exceot him is slowed down. Robin's would be… who knows.
Well, she summoned Prometheus and Zeus in-doors lol.
The candy obsession part is crazy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense as a quirk. She's obsessed with eating, to the point that she asks for candy tributes ahd ravages lands for ingredients. It's morbidly wacky, but simple and predictable. While the cake is DEFINITELY getting ruined, and most likely from the Fishman Island bombs, I think Bege's coup will be what leads to the bomb chest opening. It's all uncertain, but exciting.
But that can be made by pure training… the trick of Awakening is use your surroundings in Paramecia cases. I meant for Foxy as example lik putting his ability in things, such as to work as traps, when someone touches them, automatically enters into the Noro Zone.
Robin should duplicate stuff besides only her body as an example, just as Luffy would turn into rubber everything beside him. At least, that logical comes to me... and with Logias (i can't let them alone) it's the enviroment. Examples are Dragon, Kuzan, Sakazuki and Ace... with the former the most skilled, so we can perfectly understand that the wind of Loguetown was growing to a storm because a Logia of the sort was manipulating it through Awakening.Zeus in-doors!? Hahahaha xd yeah, she's very skilled.
I agreed, my friend.
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@Count:
Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying. From what we know about Big Mom's character, with so many examples of her being a power-hungry, yet peculiarly respectful businesswoman, betraying the Vinsmokes doesn't make sense.
I wouldn't say it doesn't, it merely seems kind of stupid. But there are some reason to justify it cockiness because she believes after that one she will be at the top or fear because Lola messed up once and she cannot offer another mistake with such a great opportunity. I'm much more trouble by why she doesn't just kill them in their sleep. I guess Oda loved the red wedding that much.
The worst idea being Pudding manipulating Big Mom but it would give an easy way for Luffy to make a deal with the emperor once the treachery is revealed.
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I already dislike Pudding's DF enough, it would be way too convenient if Pudding'is responsible for every evil action from BM.
And Big Mom would be the lamest emperor if she is manipulated by one of her daughter. -
Finally a chapter focusing on the Goat Overlord. I've been waiting for this for so long
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Just to clarify, I absolutely hate the idea of Puddig manipulating Big Mom. It could still happen, but I would rather it be focused on something else, maybe Lola's wedding/flashback. However, for the current plot, it's a no-no. One of the issues with the possible developments of this arc is that any of the current villans gets redeemed or allies with the Strawhats. Capone, the Vinsmokes and Big Mom, even if it means Luffy does not physically take them down, a break on power structure would be ideal for all factions.
I still go by the idea of Linlin destroying Whole Cake, while Luffy/Sanji destroy Germa's technology, and Pekoms getting his re-match with Capone and defeating him. If Pedro indeed forfeits the remainder of his life here, it just means that Pekoms would replace him. Given that a death is unlikely, and even though lifespan cannot be put onto other humans, it is still possible to regain what you have lost.
If something akin to the Davy's back fight does come back, then I can imagine the Big Mom family just sinisterly crackling up: " you want to play a game with us?!"
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@Count:
betraying the Vinsmokes doesn't make sense. And it is indeed a flat-out unprovoked betrayal that doesn't seem to earn her anything specific that she wouldn't already get (and more) from the marriage proceeding as planned.
We actually know at least one big benefit Big Mom gets out of betraying the Vinsmokes and we can speculate at some others.
The thing you have to remember about the agreement is that it is at it's core a trade. Big Mom won't be able to just go through with the marriage and then skip off with Germa tech. Judge wants something in return and that something is very significant. Judge wants Big Mom to commit forces to North Blue.
For a Emperor this is a pretty huge cost. The balance of power is pretty tight in the New World and if she is seen as a vulnerable she could be very quickly picked off. This is compounded by the fact that Germa's clone technology takes years before it can produce any military might. For Big Mom on the short term she will only be weaker and that could destroy her. If she can quickly kill off the Vinsmokes however it's all profit.
Another point we should remember is that this isn't likely at all similar to Big Mom's normal alliances. Normally Big Mom seems to take the dominant role in the alliance with the marriage partners becoming a part of the Big Mom crew. She gains a immediate bump in forces and eternally loyal soldiers. She literally has no reason to betray these marriages. There are no downsides for Big Mom. Germa however wants to go rule in North Blue. The Vinsmoke siblings aren't going to be there to fight for Big Mom.
We should also consider the fact that this marriage is implied to be secret. The world government as of right now still officially sees Germa as a member state. It seems like Judge is reluctant to reveal his allegiance until the marriage is confirmed. This puts Big Mom in a situation where she can kill the Vinsmokes without anyone knowing it's a betrayal. There is seemingly very little risk to Big Mom's reputation in her betrayal.
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I won't deny i'm totally grasping at straws here, I wasn't expecting this turn of events before it came up. I confess i'm more morbidly curious about the ramifications of this than the justification for it. I get the feeling the cloning technology itself would be more interesting if Linlin had it frankly.
I get what you're feeling. I somehow think the same way, yet have no idea how cloning can tie into the Giant theme. Unless she wants to make Giant clones of her family to replace them, I don't know lol.
Before Pudding threw us that curveball I thought there was a good possibility of seeing that. Linlin really did seem to respond favorably to Sanji being a chef. Sanji being accepted by the matriarch of the Charlotte family for a skill his father never had any appreciation for was a nice contrast I thought. Reminded me of the rapport Sanji had with his own mother. Wouldn't have minded seeing that go somewhere.
I would have as well. But I still think there is a chance. It would have to be at the end though. Big Mom does that strange illness which is bound to show up again. Oda's really thought through with having the Straw Hats present in this arc utilize their unique skills as notable "unexpected" advantages. I highly doubt having the doctor of the Straw Hats come was a coincidence. And since Big Mom's illness is quelled when she gets food, medicine cooked up by Chopper (if it's possible) could be in the form of food. Sanji can help out with that. I also liked sharing a theory in another thread weeks ago about how Sanji failed to save his mother from her illness by cooking bad food as a kid, and now he can figuratively redeem himself with another mother and be a proficient chef like her.
You make some keen observations there. Judge definitely has positive qualities, that isn't in question. Off the top of my head, I forget which chapter it was, but in a flashback, he does show affection for his children he actually does care about by embracing them. I suppose the fact that he was unwilling to subject those same children to an arranged marriage with the Charlotte family could be another example. I don't think he's pure evil, just close enough that if something bad did happen to him it would be entertaining is all.
I always supported Judge having his own flashback of some sort. We didn't even see Momji's name, and if her character isn't expanded upon, Sanji's backstory is just literally a ripoff of Usopp's. I doubt Oda would be THAT repetitive, even by One Piece standards.
Also, I doubt that was real affection. I argue that he just cares about vicariously living through them by placing value on their genetic enhancements. If anything, his desperation to force Sanji to catch up with his siblings before giving up give me huge vibes of Judge having insecurities regarding mortality, which would line up with how he criticized Sanji's cooking by saying that his mother is dead and how Momji had a mysterious illness. Judge probably does have some form of emotional attachment, but I doubt it's actual legitimate love as much as having pride in his experiments living up to his standards. Just because a flashback might highlight some more of Judge's traits does not mean he will be redeemed (not that you're saying that, it's just that I've seen some people theorize that), because that still doesn't justify his actions since then at all. If anything, Oda gives flashbacks to villains whenever he wants us to hate them more, and knowing that Judge used to be a nice person but succumbing to irrationally inconsiderate overcompensation by trying to play God would definitely do that.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want Big Mom to be yet another uninteresting two-dimensional villain. I like her as a complex antagonist pretty much for the same reasons that you have been detailing on numerous occasions, yet I don't think betraying the Vinsmokes makes her any less of that. The execution of Evil Pudding and the sudden reveal of the Red Wedding felt forced to me, but the motivations behind it not so much. It is as you say: whether we like it or not, Big Mom has loose, morally grey ethics and has had them from the start. That includes possible betrayal. We've been shown that she enjoys being challenged and agrees to bargains with people who've earned her respect by showing great determination, but at the same time there were also facts that can't be ignored that hint violence is part of her nature and a means she will easily resort to in order to get what she wants - leveling cities that fail to pay extortion money, pillaging for ingredients… Is all of that really so much different from "murder a bunch of royals to steal their advanced tech" ? And, more importantly, does she even respect the Vinsmokes enough to think she owes them to uphold her end of the deal in the first place ?
But at least with the territories, that happens if they can't fulfill their end of the bargain. I never tried to make Big Mom out to be a saint, she's totally corrupt and prone to violence. I mean, she has an illness that turns her into One Piece's Godzilla lol. It's just that she had a really cool system of logic for it. It's not that it's impossible for someone like Big Mom to go back on their word. It's just disappointing with how uniquely threatening she was. Because while morally grey ethics can seem a bit unpredictable, it's not like they still can't be consistent in terms of execution and whatever beliefs they tie into.
But I could at least partially forgive all of that if killing the Vinsmokes seemed logical. It really doesn't. I'm sure Oda will explain it more in depth, but there's really no sensical answer as to why from what's been established. I mean, you just said she has no problem destroying territories for candy. If she was willing to make deals with those territories and embrace such oppressive methods while bragging about respecting selfishness/ambition so much, why are the Vinsmokes exceptions that merit being taken out? I hope it's not a moral/respect thing, but that would be cheap and hypocritical due to Big Mom having that opinion being off-panel, especially since she didn't punish Bege for betraying Pekoms (and before you might try it, I wouldn't say that counts as making it more likely for Big Mom to sabotage a marriage because the Zou situation was a provoked response and Pekoms got in the way of the job. He basically committed treason. Not that I find what happened to him ethically condonable at all lol, but it still makes sense why he got shot and his attempted killer pardoned).
So yes, I would say that it's different from murdering royals to steal tech. Which I can totally see Big Mom doing in any other circumstance that DOESN'T interfere with a deal she already made with such a party. And it's still completely unnecessary. She also condoned Caesar enough to give him another chance to make Gigantification work after obviously lying, just like the cliche of someone failing to pay back a loan shark and begging to have more time. And just in case, he'll get killed at the end of the two week deadline. It's simple, still maintains her code, and fits in with how malicious she can be. That was a cool balance. And Big Mom didn't even need to hear Jimbei's reasons to let him go, even though there was a probably chance of him going against her if he wants to join another pirate crew. Big Mom having an issue with respect, while definitely possible, would feel cheap from how Big Mom having reasons to detest the Vinsmokes would mainly be off-panel. The only hint is how she criticized that soldier for admiring the Vinsmokes (which could definitely be rooted deeper), but it's nowhere near enough to think that means they deserve to die. If such a twist is revealed, I highly argue that it should have been built-up on panel more because it's REALLY easy for a storyteller to cook up whatever reasons they want for someone to go back on their word after a betrayal is revealed despite little actual build-up to that being present.
My argument is moreso about the execution of this twist rather than Big Mom trying to pull something like this in general (even though that still definitely irks me). I can see her pulling this sort of betrayal, there's just no apparent rationality behind it. Practically nothing is present in previous chapters that gives credibility to her decision ethically or logically. Establishing that after the fact of revealing the betrayal is cheap character interaction and suspense because that allows you to make up anything on the spot.
I wouldn't say it doesn't, it merely seems kind of stupid. But there are some reason to justify it cockiness because she believes after that one she will be at the top or fear because Lola messed up once and she cannot offer another mistake with such a great opportunity. I'm much more trouble by why she doesn't just kill them in their sleep. I guess Oda loved the red wedding that much.
The worst idea being Pudding manipulating Big Mom but it would give an easy way for Luffy to make a deal with the emperor once the treachery is revealed.
I've seen that theory of it being due to her fearing another Lola situation. But that's kind of already remedied by having Pudding pull her deception as an extra measure in itself though, while I doubt that Big Mom ever relied on the likes of Lola or Praline who earnestly seek out love for that type of assurance. Oda can be more creative with having Big Mom be a bit underhanded while not so blatantly acting like an unprovoked hypocrite. But it's still the best option for explaining her actions.
That would be the worst idea though, I completely agree. I'm scared about how potential convoluted Pudding's Devil Fruit is if it's worked into the plot more. ESPECIALLY with the flashback. It's an easy copout to allow for a truce/alliance to happen. Which I'm sure will happen, I just want the execution of it to be compelling and logical.
I already dislike Pudding's DF enough, it would be way too convenient if Pudding'is responsible for every evil action from BM.
And Big Mom would be the lamest emperor if she is manipulated by one of her daughter.Agreed. And it's an easy way out of finding a way to have Big Mom excuse/forgive Lola or having to defeat her.
@Tamiel:
Just to clarify, I absolutely hate the idea of Puddig manipulating Big Mom. It could still happen, but I would rather it be focused on something else, maybe Lola's wedding/flashback. However, for the current plot, it's a no-no. One of the issues with the possible developments of this arc is that any of the current villans gets redeemed or allies with the Strawhats. Capone, the Vinsmokes and Big Mom, even if it means Luffy does not physically take them down, a break on power structure would be ideal for all factions.
I pretty much agree.
I still go by the idea of Linlin destroying Whole Cake, while Luffy/Sanji destroy Germa's technology, and Pekoms getting his re-match with Capone and defeating him. If Pedro indeed forfeits the remainder of his life here, it just means that Pekoms would replace him. Given that a death is unlikely, and even though lifespan cannot be put onto other humans, it is still possible to regain what you have lost.
I'm still betting on the Straw Hats saving Whole Cake than letting Big Mom destroy it in her delirious rampage lol. But I can agree on the rest.
If something akin to the Davy's back fight does come back, then I can imagine the Big Mom family just sinisterly crackling up: " you want to play a game with us?!"
…I would still like it to happen. A lot. It could have been really cool lol. But if Big Mom wants to betray the Vinsmokes for the reason of not wanting any chance of getting Germa 66's technology being compromise similar Lola's abandonment costing her a powerful alliance, then yeah, I can't see this happening lol. But I can still see Luffy rolling the roulette at the end of the arc though!
@Shobu:
But that can be made by pure training… the trick of Awakening is use your surroundings in Paramecia cases. I meant for Foxy as example lik putting his ability in things, such as to work as traps, when someone touches them, automatically enters into the Noro Zone.
Robin should duplicate stuff besides only her body as an example, just as Luffy would turn into rubber everything beside him. At least, that logical comes to me... and with Logias (i can't let them alone) it's the enviroment. Examples are Dragon, Kuzan, Sakazuki and Ace... with the former the most skilled, so we can perfectly understand that the wind of Loguetown was growing to a storm because a Logia of the sort was manipulating it through Awakening.Robin duplicating things seems way too OP and too inconsistent with her moveset style to work. Not that what you said doesn't make sense, those are just my thoughts. Both of the ideas we pitched for Foxy are probable and can be reasonable balanced and kept in tune with his fighting style. And that very well could have been Dragon, although some would argue he has a wind/weather Parmecia (which I think would make a bit more sense if gas is already a Logia theme, and wind only being the natural movement/manipulation of air than actually BEING air).
Zeus in-doors!? Hahahaha xd yeah, she's very skilled.
I just can't help but wonder how Big Mom even learned she could summon them in the first place, let alone get an idea to summon personified weather constructs lol.
I agreed, my friend.
I'm glad that you do. :)
We actually know at least one big benefit Big Mom gets out of betraying the Vinsmokes and we can speculate at some others.
But the fact that it's a benefit she would already have if the wedding proceeded alone is why her plan of betrayal sounds so dumb without more elaboration though lol.
The thing you have to remember about the agreement is that it is at it's core a trade. Big Mom won't be able to just go through with the marriage and then skip off with Germa tech. Judge wants something in return and that something is very significant. Judge wants Big Mom to commit forces to North Blue.
For a Emperor this is a pretty huge cost. The balance of power is pretty tight in the New World and if she is seen as a vulnerable she could be very quickly picked off. This is compounded by the fact that Germa's clone technology takes years before it can produce any military might. For Big Mom on the short term she will only be weaker and that could destroy her. If she can quickly kill off the Vinsmokes however it's all profit.
That makes sense. But her previous deals were still open to risks though. Like letting Jimbei leave, giving another chance to Caesar, and telling Sanji and the Straw Hats that they will be unharmed (even though we now know that's not true). And that doesn't mean that such a twist couldn't have been built up more in getting Big Mom to showcase more consideration for the risks of her deals. Your logic makes sense, I just would prefer for more characterization consistency.
Another point we should remember is that this isn't likely at all similar to Big Mom's normal alliances. Normally Big Mom seems to take the dominant role in the alliance with the marriage partners becoming a part of the Big Mom crew. She gains a immediate bump in forces and eternally loyal soldiers. She literally has no reason to betray these marriages. There are no downsides for Big Mom. Germa however wants to go rule in North Blue. The Vinsmoke siblings aren't going to be there to fight for Big Mom.
I definitely wouldn't say that it's confirmed the Vinsmokes won't fight in North Blue. They do go out to help war efforts all of the time, and business is booming after Doflamingo's downfall. But your argument is still sound. I'm not necessarily trying to say that there can't be a possible reason for Big Mom to betray the Vinsmokes, there totally can be. I would just prefer more built-up acknowledgment of these aspects than saving all of these explanations and characterized concerns after the fact of the betrayal being revealed, because it's a second-rate way of having shock value for the sake of shock value at the expense of properly investing the audience into the mindsets of the characters and conflicts (both tangible and mental) and coming up with clever ways to subvert their expectations while still playing true to what's been explicitly established several times beforehand.
We should also consider the fact that this marriage is implied to be secret. The world government as of right now still officially sees Germa as a member state. It seems like Judge is reluctant to reveal his allegiance until the marriage is confirmed. This puts Big Mom in a situation where she can kill the Vinsmokes without anyone knowing it's a betrayal. There is seemingly very little risk to Big Mom's reputation in her betrayal.
That also makes sense. Thank you for compiling reasons why it makes sense for Big Mom to betray the Vinsmokes from a tactical perspective that can fit Big Mom's way of thinking. I actually didn't take into account the possibility of Big Mom being apprehensive about going toe-to-toe with the World Government. But I still stand by my criticism of the execution benefitting from more built-up of showing that Big Mom takes into account the risks of her deals. As well as losing out on having a charismatic villain who sticks by their ethics after so much build up towards that specific aspect in how her philosophy and leniency in negotiations were portrayed several times.
In the end, if reasons similar to what you stated are revealed to be true for Big Mom's motivations, then my argument is more of a personal thing. It wouldn't be bad writing at all. Just come at the expense of truly having a consistent, ethically grey character who doesn't pull facades akin to past villains we've already see this type of plot-twist from in One Piece. But I think it's more complex than such simple fears with all of the ambiguity surrounding Lola's marriage and the Giant phobias, especially with Kaido and Elbaf looming over the horizon of Totland.
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@Count:
I just can't help but wonder how Big Mom even learned she could summon them in the first place, let alone get an idea to summon personified weather constructs lol.
I think Zeus and Prometheus just tag it alongside Big Mom.
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I think Zeus and Prometheus just tag it alongside Big Mom.
I'm talking about how they were created in the first place though. Obviously, they either always follow Big Mom or she is accustomed to summoning them. I'm just poking fun at whatever circumstances let her to learn such an arbitrary technique in the first place lol.
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Putting souls in the moisture in the air and her burning passion for candies?
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Oh God, like we need another Diable Jambe-esque explanation lol.
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@Count:
I can see her pulling this sort of betrayal, there's just no apparent rationality behind it.
On this specific point, I completely subscribe to TheStoner's view on the balance of powers and how allying with the Vinsmokes may put her at risk. I do agree though that the lack of build-up to this intended betrayal is detrimental to the storytelling, and I sincerely hope that the Vinsmoke betrayal +creepy bestiary books and other hints that keep dropping lately are not steps to turn Big Mom into the run-of-the-mill hatable villain we get so much of…
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You make some keen observations there. Judge definitely has positive qualities, that isn't in question. Off the top of my head, I forget which chapter it was, but in a flashback, he does show affection for his children he actually does care about by embracing them. I suppose the fact that he was unwilling to subject those same children to an arranged marriage with the Charlotte family could be another example. I don't think he's pure evil, just close enough that if something bad did happen to him it would be entertaining is all.
Pretty sure we'll come to find that Judge has his reasons, even if they are twisted.
That's not to say he won't be served his just desserts. However, if it's what I think it is, Sanji will harm him more severely and deeply than any physical pain could.
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I would love for it to be revealed that the reason Momji died or even got sick in the first place was from being the guinea pig for Judge's early Lineage Factor experiments. Basically in a way where her being experimented on allowed her to safely and successfully pass on the exoskeleton an enhanced physiology genes to her children during conception (Transgenesis in a nutshell. If you need an example of how it's occasionally used in sci-fi stories, watch Rise of the Planet of the Apes), but couldn't be healthily sustainable in an already grown body.
That or he killed her to "save her pain" or out of insecurities, I guess lol.
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@Count:
I'm talking about how they were created in the first place though. Obviously, they either always follow Big Mom or she is accustomed to summoning them. I'm just poking fun at whatever circumstances let her to learn such an arbitrary technique in the first place lol.
The woman love her random dramatic effect and love fancy. I mean did you the random dramatic weather she creates for her army, or the island she lives on or the the book? She probably try to stick soul in the most unbelievable things just to have fun and it's original.
I think you mention how it was strange the difference between those in the book and the other house. I think the difference is that those in the book are rare enough to go extinct and hard to acquire while the races there's just a plethora outside and they won't run out.
For the whole Pudding is enough of a security to ensure no Lola repeat, well she did not expect any of her children to betray her like that. She might have developpend a crazy level of fear from it and simply can't take the chance. If one marriage failed miserably, it could happen again.
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@Count:
I'm still betting on the Straw Hats saving Whole Cake than letting Big Mom destroy it in her delirious rampage lol. But I can agree on the rest.
The only way I see the Strawhats saving WCI is if it taken as a way to topple Big Mom's forces were they couldn't. Something between Mama's family panicking they can't stop her and Luffy telling them that they should be ashamed of fearing their captain which contrasts how the Strawhats have confronted Luffy before.
It seems more like, Luffy, Nami, Brooke and Chopper team up to subdue Big Mom, while the Vinsmokes are fighting Big Mom pirates amd Sanji. The deal is: if Luffy subdues Big Mom, then Pudding will use her ability to make Mama forget about the wedding or Sanji's and the crew involvement in it. The bomb might even come into play after, which rekindles Mama's fury against them.
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This post is deleted!
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The woman love her random dramatic effect and love fancy. I mean did you the random dramatic weather she creates for her army, or the island she lives on or the the book? She probably try to stick soul in the most unbelievable things just to have fun and it's original.
That's true. I'm just trying to wonder what exactly she can put a soul in to make a sun and a moon. It could be as simple as, say, a torch and water vapor, but that would feel like too much of a stretch due to them either being too small or intangible compared to how the rest of the Homies are more intuitive to understand. I don't think her Devil Fruit is fluid enough for her Homies to look like whatever she wants them to (by that, I mean that I don't think she could make King Baum look a lot more friendly and cute. Putting a soul into that giant tree is just always going to look like King Baum) rather than just depending on the natural physical makeup of the host (at most, they might gain the traits of original hosts those stolen lifespans occupied since Nitro looks so much like Bege).
I think you mention how it was strange the difference between those in the book and the other house. I think the difference is that those in the book are rare enough to go extinct and hard to acquire while the races there's just a plethora outside and they won't run out.
I don't remember mentioning that whenever I talked about that subject. If anything, whenever someone asks that question, I always answer that rare creatures are one of a kind beings (Brook and Chopper, unnatural hybrids (Longlimb Human), or extremely isolated/few in number (like the Impel Down Manticores). Freaks of nature, basically. Which is pretty much what you said, so we're on the same page on that. The races that are present in Totland (minus Giants) are well known and spread out among the globe.
Sorry if it seemed like I was also questioning that as being inconsistent. I was only highlighting other situations where Big Mom didn't live up to her word for the sake of acknowledging everything on the table when it comes to her character. We'll get proper elaboration on all of these things in time, especially when it comes to Linlin's Giant obsession.
For the whole Pudding is enough of a security to ensure no Lola repeat, well she did not expect any of her children to betray her like that. She might have developpend a crazy level of fear from it and simply can't take the chance. If one marriage failed miserably, it could happen again.
That's understandable. I've seen Tamiel bring that up a few times and I always acknowledge it as being very probable. I just wanted to point out how Oda could have still kept Big Mom's negotiation integrity while still being a bit underhanded with just the evil Pudding twist.
@Tamiel:
The only way I see the Strawhats saving WCI is if it taken as a way to topple Big Mom's forces were they couldn't. Something between Mama's family panicking they can't stop her and Luffy telling them that they should be ashamed of fearing their captain which contrasts how the Strawhats have confronted Luffy before.
That's EXACTLY what I expect. Especially since Big Mom's Devil Fruit allows her to steal lifespans from people who exhibit fear. And her family likes to take advantage of her amnesia to not inform her of her rampages while they try to hide the corpses and scoop up the leftover "seconds" to hide any traces of the incidents. In fact, the very first time we see Big Mom, Pekoms and Baron Tamago got intimidated by her when they tried to persuade her to accept the treasure instead of vengefully destroying Fishman Island. When Big Mom rampaged through Sweet City, the whole family stood on the sidelines and panicked until Jimbei miraculously saved the day. Big Mom respects those who are willing to selfishly pursue their ambitions without being too frightened by her to ask. That's been portrayed so frequently that with how likely it is for Luffy and Big Mom to end on ambivalent or even good terms this arc, it would be a satisfying theme for the climax as a means of showing why Big Mom can be willing to excuse someone like Luffy after all of the trouble he's caused her. That, along with stopping Bege's coup, potentially stopping any last minute Vinsmoke shenanigans in the chaos to usurp power, alleviating/curing her illness, and saving her beloved family and subjects. She has been shown to take a special interest in him despite being a rookie. And there are still people to save on Totland, including the Sweet City citizens, Pekoms (who's fiercely loyal to Linlin), Pound, and maybe even both Chiffon and Bege's kid.
It seems more like, Luffy, Nami, Brooke and Chopper team up to subdue Big Mom, while the Vinsmokes are fighting Big Mom pirates amd Sanji. The deal is: if Luffy subdues Big Mom, then Pudding will use her ability to make Mama forget about the wedding or Sanji's and the crew involvement in it. The bomb might even come into play after, which rekindles Mama's fury against them.
lol Ew, I don't like anything you mentioned past the first sentence.
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@Count:
lol Ew, I don't like anything you mentioned past the first sentence.
Neither did I, but when exploring possible scenarios, you can't just dismiss, what seems to be a crucial ability for resolving the conflict. As in, we can say that Linlin will be indebted to the Starwhats for saving Whole Cake, her family, stopping the Vinsmokes.and Bege. But with that, there are some factors that cannot be overlooked. If Linlin will owe the Strawhats, what about the technology? The Vinsmoke factory is most likely getting destroyed, or at least Linlin won't get it. Will she again forgive the SH? I understand that with this outcome, Big Mom would for the first time be on the receiving end of not being entirely dominant(to not go to extremes) However, why? The SH did her a favor…okay...but she has left them off the hook so many times: insulting her, eating her candy, defeating her commander and destroying the forest. Let's add up that they will ruin the ceremony. It also feels really cheap if her illness absolves her of responsibility. Or if she has her episode, before the wedding crashers come along.
If her illness is just there to make her more tame as an antagonist, it would feel just as bad like Judge jumping in to save Sanji from his lifespan getting stolen, to tell us: he cared all along. I guess my main issue with ~let's heal Big Mom~ is that it sounds too nice.
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@Tamiel:
Neither did I, but when exploring possible scenarios, you can't just dismiss, what seems to be a crucial ability for resolving the conflict. As in, we can say that Linlin will be indebted to the Starwhats for saving Whole Cake, her family, stopping the Vinsmokes.and Bege. But with that, there are some factors that cannot be overlooked. If Linlin will owe the Strawhats, what about the technology? The Vinsmoke factory is most likely getting destroyed, or at least Linlin won't get it. Will she again forgive the SH? I understand that with this outcome, Big Mom would for the first time be on the receiving end of not being entirely dominant(to not go to extremes) However, why? The SH did her a favor…okay...but she has left them off the hook so many times: insulting her, eating her candy, defeating her commander and destroying the forest. Let's add up that they will ruin the ceremony. It also feels really cheap if her illness absolves her of responsibility. Or if she has her episode, before the wedding crashers come along.
Why does she have to blame that on the Straw Hats? You make it seem like the Vinsmokes are going to stay innocent and not pull any antics after seeing Big Mom rampage and potentially learning about how they were going to be killed. The relationship between the Charlotte and Vinsmoke Families could become strained to the point where even if the technology is intact, there would be way that Big Mom would want to deal with the likes of them.
Insulting her and eating her candy aren't permanent losses. They're rather trivial and are only made a big deal because of obsessive greed personalities akin to what Big Mom and Luffy have. Those can get swept under the rug easily from the Straw Hats quelling her rage and defeating the Vinsmokes and Bege. Ruining the ceremony might be their fault, but Bege may also be at fault if he starts his coup there. Not to mention what I mentioned about the downfall of healthy Charlotte and Vinsmoke relations I mentioned above.
If her illness is just there to make her more tame as an antagonist, it would feel just as bad like Judge jumping in to save Sanji from his lifespan getting stolen, to tell us: he cared all along. I guess my main issue with ~let's heal Big Mom~ is that it sounds too nice.
But we've had build-up of Big Mom being willing to turn the other cheek with her enemies in negotiations, as well as It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as a copout like Judge caring all along. It wouldn't just be for Big Mom's sake, but as an epic means of the saving the day and, if anything, humiliating/one-upping her. The foes that she tried to lock up, kill, and extort end up saving her from destroying everything she built to amass power. I can't think of a better comeuppance for someone who thinks she can manipulate others against their say as a means of achieving her ends and force deals where she typically decides the stakes. Especially after Big Mom's trash talk towards Luffy being a helpless rookie and blaming her failure to become Pirate King on Lola:
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Big Mom bragged about the Straw Hats only surviving by charitably being at her mercy, but it turns out that the tables are turned when she her plans are unraveled and loses control by going into a delirious rampage. The Straw Hats would have Big Mom and all of her power in their grasp, and only have to escape and watch to see it all crumble. And yet, despite how easy it would be to selfishly leave her to her own impulsive devices of destroying Whole Cake Island and potentially everybody there, they "save" her for the sake of protecting the innocent and their friends. If Luffy yelling that he ate all the candy and asking her to focus on destroying the Straw Hats, as well as Pedro offering his eye as payment, impressed Big Mom, than such a humbling defeat would surely earn satisfying gratitude and embarrassment from her. What better way would there be for Luffy to crush Big Mom's ambitions and reveal the devil in the details with her modus operandi if he isn't powerful enough to physically beat her?
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@Count:
And that very well could have been Dragon, although some would argue he has a wind/weather Parmecia (which I think would make a bit more sense if gas is already a Logia theme, and wind only being the natural movement/manipulation of air than actually BEING air).
It is something to start an argue, indeed.
I'd incline for something appeal to manipulate the weather but not in a intrinsic matter such as wind. Something related to be able to change the present atmospheric pressure, which our navigator felt at once:!
This first time is also a logic/clever explanation about how a storm occurs, unrelated at first but helped by one of Ivankov's memories regarding Dragon missing Luffy… or someone else in the East:
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Everyone can start arguing about how his skill is a reminder of an endearing memory of him, but after seeing something very interesting with an apparent no kind of relationship whatsoever, it makes me think that this encounters are no meant by chance, those meeting are this ones:
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Smoker & Sabo, Moku Moku & Mera Mera, both Logias and related to be the latter the nemesis of the former; Dragon has meet this guys by no chance from Oda and i feel that their relationship will unite for a greater good, specially with Smoker's personality. Another thing in the pics is the wondrous gust which knocked everyone there, even Smoker… but Dragon stands leisurely unaffected by it.
Oda has used Gas, Smoke and Fire to Logias, but we're lacking one element... one that has been already introduced, obviously by his favorite navigator:
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It is an element located between liquid and gas, which allows the user to manipulate the moisture of the atmosphere changing the weather by simply adding or removing process, generates fog, mist and even explosions thanks to fusing different temperatures and mostly brings unnoticed storms thanks to be invisible and when controlled even flow through the gases, air included.
Dragon has the Steam Logia fruit.
He has fire under his command, met the smoke user -a heavier version floating in the atmosphere than him- and air holds nitrogen and oxygen which are gases. So Caesar has that ability occupied. And it is the most dangerous man, being one of the reasons to have at his disposal the fruit with the nearest weakness to most of the fruits, Water. Steam is water in gas form. But i'd still incline more for Awakening at creating storms, just to be clear.
To end my theory, i would like to show a special picture:
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This is strange.
Dragon does not touch the water, indirect meaning that has a devil fruit.
Sabo is burned for the explosion, drowns, is taken outside the sea and keeps steaming.
Dragon's arm holding Sabo is literally floating far from his body, with the pieces of his cloth pointing his right side.
Dragon lands on his ship with an obvious steaming silhouette on his left, pointing that wind cannot be his ability.Other thing is that no character in movies has ever used the Steam Fruit and only one had a resemblance and it was called as Hot Hot Fruit.
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@Count:
Why does she have to blame that on the Straw Hats? You make it seem like the Vinsmokes are going to stay innocent and not pull any antics after seeing Big Mom rampage and potentially learning about how they were going to be killed. The relationship between the Charlotte and Vinsmoke Families could become strained to the point where even if the technology is intact, there would be way that Big Mom would want to deal with the likes of them.
The only, other person she could blame, considering the information we have so far would be Bege. Of course, Pudding could be doing her own thing, and what not. But if we just think about the plan Big Mom supposedly had: "lure the vinsmokes, kill them and get their tech" Then the marriage was a farce to begin with, and the Straw Hats will HAVE to ruin the wedding because it means the death of Sanji and Reiju (if we are only getting concerned about whom was good to them). The other reason why would Big Mom put all of this charade up could be, because the Germa, having no nation, are almost impossible to spot. So even with her network, their constant movement and their tech allows them to be evasive. So hatch up a plan, in accordance to her character, make a deal, but this was the one were she was going to break. Which in turns works well with it completely failing.
Insulting her and eating her candy aren't permanent losses. They're rather trivial and are only made a big deal because of obsessive greed personalities akin to what Big Mom and Luffy have. Those can get swept under the rug easily from the Straw Hats quelling her rage and defeating the Vinsmokes and Bege. Ruining the ceremony might be their fault, but Bege may also be at fault if he starts his coup there. Not to mention what I mentioned about the downfall of healthy Charlotte and Vinsmoke relations I mentioned above.
Yes the insult and the candies aren't permanent like you said. However, that also entails, her territory being taken from her. Because that is basically what Luffy did. And all of this can be kept hidden from the public, but that seems so bland, that is why I feel like Absalom would make a perfect uninvited guest to the party. He will declare everything that happened as it did. Imagine he exposes that Fishman Island is now under Luffy, that would allow people like Kaido to find out and make attacks on it, to even out the fact that the SH took something from him.
But we've had build-up of Big Mom being willing to turn the other cheek with her enemies in negotiations, as well as It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as a copout like Judge caring all along. It wouldn't just be for Big Mom's sake, but as an epic means of the saving the day and, if anything, humiliating/one-upping her. The foes that she tried to lock up, kill, and extort end up saving her from destroying everything she built to amass power. I can't think of a better comeuppance for someone who thinks she can manipulate others against their say as a means of achieving her ends and force deals where she typically decides the stakes. Especially after Big Mom's trash talk towards Luffy being a helpless rookie and blaming her failure to become Pirate King on Lola:
Big Mom bragged about the Straw Hats only surviving by charitably being at her mercy, but it turns out that the tables are turned when she her plans are unraveled and loses control by going into a delirious rampage. The Straw Hats would have Big Mom and all of her power in their grasp, and only have to escape and watch to see it all crumble. And yet, despite how easy it would be to selfishly leave her to her own impulsive devices of destroying Whole Cake Island and potentially everybody there, they "save" her for the sake of protecting the innocent and their friends. If Luffy yelling that he ate all the candy and asking her to focus on destroying the Straw Hats, as well as Pedro offering his eye as payment, impressed Big Mom, than such a humbling defeat would surely earn satisfying gratitude and embarrassment from her. What better way would there be for Luffy to crush Big Mom's ambitions and reveal the devil in the details with her modus operandi if he isn't powerful enough to physically beat her?
The only thing I have to bring up is: which friends? Pound and Pekoms, I think by this point it is safer for them to actually leave Totland. Pound already has a target on his head and Pekoms ~betrayed~ Big Mom, and considering how carefully she wants this marriage to happen even attempting murder, she might have not forgiven Pekoms for trying to let Sanji go. She was already quite displeased with him begging for Pedro's life. Unless I am forgetting about someone.
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@Tamiel:
The only, other person she could blame, considering the information we have so far would be Bege. Of course, Pudding could be doing her own thing, and what not. But if we just think about the plan Big Mom supposedly had: "lure the vinsmokes, kill them and get their tech" Then the marriage was a farce to begin with, and the Straw Hats will HAVE to ruin the wedding because it means the death of Sanji and Reiju (if we are only getting concerned about whom was good to them). The other reason why would Big Mom put all of this charade up could be, because the Germa, having no nation, are almost impossible to spot. So even with her network, their constant movement and their tech allows them to be evasive. So hatch up a plan, in accordance to her character, make a deal, but this was the one were she was going to break. Which in turns works well with it completely failing.
That's quite true. But I still argue that Luffy stopping Bege, the Vinsmokes, and her illness make up for ruining the marriage. Especially if her children get inspired by how valiant the Straw Hats are in helping Big Mom while she's ill as they cower from the sidelines, perhaps deciding to even vouch for their safety despite everything that they've done. It would at least fit with how Brûlée and Diesel are forced to help out the Straw Hats than stay down as irredeemable villains.
Yes the insult and the candies aren't permanent like you said. However, that also entails, her territory being taken from her. Because that is basically what Luffy did. And all of this can be kept hidden from the public, but that seems so bland, that is why I feel like Absalom would make a perfect uninvited guest to the party. He will declare everything that happened as it did. Imagine he exposes that Fishman Island is now under Luffy, that would allow people like Kaido to find out and make attacks on it, to even out the fact that the SH took something from him.
Just because Big Mom might be on decent terms with Luffy doesn't mean that the info can't be made public. Absalom would make for a great way to let that happen.
And I don't really think Linlin's going to have the biggest impression of Fishman Island after the bombs blow up the wedding cake lol. You might argue how that would make her be even MORE vengeful, but I reckon that Luffy "saving" Big Mom would make her grateful enough to not let him off the hook COMPLETELY, but give him a chance to play the roulette with the stakes of Fishman Island (and probably Jimbei) on the line. We get a proper balance between forgiveness and giving Luffy's actions against Big Mom earlier some weight.
The only thing I have to bring up is: which friends? Pound and Pekoms, I think by this point it is safer for them to actually leave Totland. Pound already has a target on his head and Pekoms ~betrayed~ Big Mom, and considering how carefully she wants this marriage to happen even attempting murder, she might have not forgiven Pekoms for trying to let Sanji go. She was already quite displeased with him begging for Pedro's life. Unless I am forgetting about someone.
There are the Mink Pirates that live in Totland. And who knows where all of the rare species in her library can go, as they don't have accessibility to other areas like the Grand Fleet. I don't think Big Mom would have forgiven Pekoms either, but Bege's coup can definitely convince her to forgive him. And he could help vouch for the Straw Hats. Also, if the Straw Hats felt selfless enough to want to help/save the Tontattas, then they would do the same for the Whole Cake Island citizens. Along with all of the really young children Big Mom has that probably can't even fight on their older siblings.
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@Shobu:
Dragon has the Steam Logia fruit.
He has fire under his command, met the smoke user -a heavier version floating in the atmosphere than him- and air holds nitrogen and oxygen which are gases. So Caesar has that ability occupied. And it is the most dangerous man, being one of the reasons to have at his disposal the fruit with the nearest weakness to most of the fruits, Water. Steam is water in gas form. But i'd still incline more for Awakening at creating storms, just to be clear.
I don't think Oda would that much of science into a DF making it more complex than Ceasar, but whatever.
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@Count:
Oh God, like we need another Diable Jambe-esque explanation lol.
I've actually always loved that ridiculous explanation haha.
It's just very Sanji.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
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I've actually always loved that ridiculous explanation haha.
It's just very Sanji.
That's definitely true. XD I'm just not a fan of having an explained supernatural source of superpowers like Devil Fruits and Haki alongside powers that come solely from emotions without any dietetically sensible explanations like Diable Jambe and Zoro's Asura. I'm totally cool with characters gaining abnormal Toon Force-esque super strength and durability (like Usopp lol), especially if it fits with the emotional tension and stakes at hand. But completely random powers that defy any sense of natural or in-work logic for the sake of it just really tick off the creative OCD in me lol.
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First VIZ comparisons of 2017~
- VIZ name of the chapter is "Dog End".
- After Pudding's started making faces to imitate Sanji, in MS Pudding asks why Reiju isn't saying anything, but in VIZ, she asks why Reiju isn't looking at her.
- Pudding's words about Sanji's proposal: "Then he pulled me close, and managed to squeak out the words, 'You are my salvation! Let's get married!'" (In other words, more accurate to what he actually did say.) Then her words after that: "Have you ever heard of such a miserable proposal?! Oh, it was so funny! Who in their right mind would ever get married to a disgraceful failure like you?!"
- Big Mom, instead of asking Brook why he stands again, asks why he's still on his feet.
- Brook's words to Big Mom:
"That's right! The thing about Sanji is…he's very kind-hearted. So I knew that he would not return to us. No matter what trap it is you've set up for him! His kindness knows no bounds! Once he's made up his mind to sacrifice himself for someone, he will not change his ways! And our captain, meanwhile, is a man who always trusts in his own beliefs when he acts! So whatever happens will be decided by them!
<after big="" mom="" asks="" if="" he="" has="" nothing="" better="" to="" do="" than="" copy="" a="" stone="">Not quite! I am doing it so that if, in the worst-case scenario, Sanji does not return with us, he will not need to kick himself for bringing us here, because we will have gained something tremendous for our trouble!</after>
Big Mom: Ma ma ma ma! That worst-case scenario you envision is rather tame! Sanji not returning?! That's the worst thing you can imagine?! Nobody dies?! Everyone might die!
Brook: Young lady, what kind of idiot draws up plans with the expectation of dying?- Brûlée says that "the mirrors" know what they're reflecting, rather than "we". Chopper and Carrot then call out to them in a Snow White reference in the VIZ version: "Mirrors, mirrors in this hall! Which of you leads past the castle wall?!"
- Pudding's fruit is also called "Memo-Memo Fruit" in VIZ (MS shortened it to "Mem Mem").
- After Pudding messes with Reiju's memories, she says that the memories of her "have been cut" (which is what we saw) instead of "I'll have to trim [them] out" from the original, which sounded a little weird considering we just saw her do it.
- Nami's response about being shot with a crossbow is "What?! What do you mean?! Don't do that–it'll kill me!" Also, instead of telling her to quit being so difficult, Luffy and Opera tell her to stop being selfish.
- Jimbei's response to being told he's not allowed in the castle: "Oh, don't be difficult. There's battles and chaos all over."
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OP 
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,
