@sggupta:
yes,analysing sanji's character in overall sense is fine and all,but since this is a chapter discussion thread,the main focus would be on this chapter,and what is presented herein.as i said earlier,the events of enies lobby are quite a bit in the past,and i doubt this chapter does anything to change that.that's why i asked what people are upset about in this chapter,and that they expected things(trauma or super-serious reason,or a complete 180 degrees on sanji and zeff's characters),both of which were not really that plausible.
wherever sanji picked up chivalry,the current sanji's own beliefs also play a role in this regard,and it's not like whatever reason prompted to become like this could completely override his character and personality.so they'd still see his actions as wrong in most cases unless there is a huge shift in character
- We are going around in circles. You want to separate the two and that is fine. However this chapter is related to the Enies Lobby chapter directly. It might have not been a question for you, but it is obvious that many were curious to know why did Sanji go to such lengths during that arc. We got that answer in this chapter. I do not think I am extremly going off topic just because it was over 300 chapters ago. But, like I said, we are going around in circles. I am not sure if you have or not read my first post in this thread it was focused entirely on the chapter where I even say: "The flashback was to portray the father-son relationship Zeff and Sanji have, moreover than the sexist part.
the bluffing was definitely a part of it,but from what i read i could also see he did try to kick her.it's been a while since i read that part,so don't quote me on that
- Well it was in response to your claim that people have forgotten how the fight transpired. So yeah, I will quote you on it, especially now that you admit not remembering the scene that well yourself. Jajajalulu
@Maju:
that's not true…sanji was chivalrous with freaking kureha and i very much doubt he was trying to get in those panties,no matter how well the doctor managed to keep herself in shape
- As much I was extreme on my statement, I did admit that some sort of respect might be there: that would be the Kureha's case. However I think that if we compare the ratio between Sanji getting lovey dovey after he does something for a woman, and not. One is vastly greater than the other one.
In real life, the "worship" of women started because in the old days women were way more valuable than man…a wiped out village could be reborn from a couple females and one single male, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Men were expendable and women were precious assets, that's why protecting them and being chivalrous to them started to become a staple of men's sense of honor..add to that the fact that the average male is stronger than the average female, and you can see why protecting women was seen as a duty for men that considered strenght as their pride.
- I am not sure why the real life thing has to come into play. Most of my arguments are within the story of One Piece. However, I must point out that no, women are not precious assets because they can be ~used~ as incubators for the repopulation of society. I understand what you are trying to say, though, I just think the choice of words is a bit amusing. {I am not going to into the bearers of life argument here, so I'll move on.} I think the main problem here is that chivalry, real life and Sanji's chivalry should not be associated. The whole chivalry concept has been beautified by poems, novels and other things after their usefulness in the battlefield had long been forgotten. I could go in detail, but I'll just link to some relatively short articles/summaries on the topic.
http://chivalrytoday.com/real-knights-real-chivalry/ - This article is actually the opposite of what I am saying. It debunks some myths on the "rape, pillage" type of knight, and showed that(as it is to be expected) there were some knights that had principles and values that were reasonable and humanitarian. Now let's go to the ugly part of the tale.
http://origins.osu.edu/review/knighthood-it-was-not-we-wish-it-were - This is a review on a book called Chivalry in Medieval England. I'll extract some quotes which I think are relevant to what we are talking about. Also interesting.
Chivalry as a concept:
[hide]Chivalry as a concept emerged around the 10th century AD in France when the Christian church began attempting to regulate the violence endemic to Frankish society. The term comes from the French word chevalier, or "knight", who derives his name from cheval, or horse. "Knights", or mounted heavy cavalry, had first been used by the Franks in the previous two centuries, perhaps as a response to Muslim invasions from Spain in the 8th century. Although the exact origins of the term "knight" are unknown—as cniht in Old English and knecht in German both refer to a "servant" or "bondsman"—the fact remains that the concept of a servant-soldier fighting on horseback is the central concept of chivalry; peasants need not apply. Then over time, because the Frankish clan structure combined with Western Christian practices, a martial elite arose which came to view violence as its primary and hereditary profession. It was this violence that the church attempted to regulate, giving rise to a code meant for those horse-bound "knights" which later became known as chivalry.[/hide]
- I think the thing to save from this is that: Peasants need not to apply. However the code of chivalry was adopted not from the Vinsmoke Royals but from Zeff. Irony.
Woman and Chivalry:
[hide]His narrative and most of his topical discussions though, while well-researched and excellently presented, are not groundbreaking in terms of historical conclusions. In Chapter 14, for example, he agrees with the current opinion that chivalry rendered the position of aristocratic women in society rather ambiguous. This is because, while they were made objects of reverence (and therefore could wield power over men desirous of their company), they were at the same time relegated to the position of appendages to men in a hyper-masculine martial society. Moreover, as chivalry became more stylized, women were increasingly restricted in their behavior because any deviation from the chivalric ideal of the passive, beautiful female was gradually more unacceptable. The higher the pedestal, it seems, the harder the fall.[/hide]
- Funny how worship/reverence/respect are something intrinsic in chivalry, however, it was more as a trophy aspect than equality.
Knight vs Knights how dignified:
while knights stayed their hand against enemy knights whenever advantageous. This dispensation, however, did not extend to the peasantry who were often slaughtered unremittingly whenever they were deemed in the way.
What we know is a product of art:
[hide]…What makes Saul most definitely worth one's time though is his understanding that our belief that chivalry was a firmly controlling code of conduct, or even as prohibitive as a set of laws, is entirely anachronistic. This fallacy came about with the "re-discovery" of chivalry in the Victorian Era when the idea was embraced by an increasingly politically marginalized aristocracy and authors who wanted to spin creative tales of pageantry and adventure... when discussing chivalry one must never forget the reality that medieval knights fought with a tacit understanding that pragmatism could overrule ceremony wherever necessary. If saving an enemy knight from slaughter was deemed financially or politically favorable, the knight could survive, but certainly not for altruistic reasons; the reward was either land, gold, or war booty...[/hide]
For further reading:
http://romanceuniversity.org/2010/05/05/amm-the-code-of-chivalry-man-in-the-middle-ages/ or google.
Sorry that was long, but basically what I am trying to say that the whole idea of men's honor, that even if it was present in some/many knights, the reality is that most of the image comes more from fiction than from fact.
In the modern day something like that doesn't really have a reason to exist anymore but it still continues because it became part of many cultures and with them passed thorough generations..much like zeff's beliefs ,that are not that well thought out since he is not ok for him to kick a weak female but it's ok to kick a weak child, but still managed to get passed to sanji, which turned them in an even more extreme form.
- Actually, it is ever clearer that in modern day there is a higher responsibility to act against these old ideals that have been passed down to us. Not hitting a women is not what I am talking about though when I talk about equality. I also heard when I was young: "To a woman, not even with a petal from a flower.", however the reality is that where I learned that is a place that just had a national protest: #Niunamenos, against women around the country being murdered, raped amongst other things, and the media and judical system give very light sentences to the perpretators, or excuse them with ~mental illness~. Or you can just check what is happening in Poland. You see, it seems that the idea to protect is changed with control, entitlement and what not. Anyways, TANK MAAAAAAAAN. Sorry it got real, but you guys keep bringing the real world, so how about painting the full picture.