You're really incensed about Oda putting women in charge of some things.
Criticizing One Piece
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I thought Bonney was first mate.
Anyway, without googling more about it, I know about queen Teuta who operated in the Adriatic, Sayyida Al Hurra from Morrocco, Jeanne de Clisson from France and Saide the Goat from US. You'd never guess how she got her nick. Hillarious.
I believe all of them were leaders of their ships (fleets).
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Not a pirate captain nor even a vice.
Note the discussion was about female pirate CAPTAIN or of some high position not just any woman that was parte of a crew.
Grace O'Malley, Sadie the Goat, Queen Teuta of Illrya (literally a pirate queen), Jacquotte Delahaye, Jeanne de Clisson, and Ching Shih (one of the most successful pirates of all time with her own fleet of over 1,000 ships, and actually got away with amnesty and all of her plundered riches from the Chinese government in exchange for peace).
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Not a pirate captain nor even a vice.
Note the discussion was about female pirate CAPTAIN or of some high position not just any woman that was parte of a crew.
actually, the criticism was about portrayal of women in general. I don't care if we get more and more female captains, I want the females shown to be capable fighters, and not to be ally-fied, defeated by fear or just be there for support.
Two examples: Naruto has a ton of capable female fighters (Sakura, Tenten, Konan, Mei, Tsunade, Temari, Chyo, etc) that aren't pulling their punches, and Seven Deadly Sins has two very capable fighters easily on par with the male characters (Diane, Merlin). And no one is complaining that the females are actually fighting on par with males.
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@Cyan:
You're really incensed about Oda putting women in charge of some things.
Not at all, just telling about the rarity of it in real world, were the conceptual of pirates came
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I thought Bonney was first mate.
Anyway, without googling more about it, I know about queen Teuta who operated in the Adriatic, Sayyida Al Hurra from Morrocco, Jeanne de Clisson from France and Saide the Goat from US. You'd never guess how she got her nick. Hillarious.
I believe all of them were leaders of their ships (fleets).
Queen teuta and Sayyda are literally country queens where piracy was legal like the vikings, bringing the nickname of pirate Queen.
The other 2 I believe are in fact pirate captains. In reality Jeanne de Clisson was a privateer! So basically we have right now 1 privateer/shichibukai and 2 pirate captains.
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actually, the criticism was about portrayal of women in general. I don't care if we get more and more female captains, I want the females shown to be capable fighters, and not to be ally-fied, defeated by fear or just be there for support.
Two examples: Naruto has a ton of capable female fighters (Sakura, Tenten, Konan, Mei, Tsunade, Temari, Chyo, etc) that aren't pulling their punches, and Seven Deadly Sins has two very capable fighters easily on par with the male characters (Diane, Merlin). And no one is complaining that the females are actually fighting on par with males.
What your definition of capable fighters? Because I wouldn't call Tenten a capable fighter and tsunade, Ino and Sakura oficial roles is support and that is basically what they are good at(and one of the reasons of Sakura useless meme)
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Two examples: Naruto has a ton of capable female fighters (Sakura, Tenten, Konan, Mei, Tsunade, Temari, Chyo, etc) that aren't pulling their punches, and Seven Deadly Sins has two very capable fighters easily on par with the male characters (Diane, Merlin). And no one is complaining that the females are actually fighting on par with males.
To add on - Bleach has literal female captains, with one being the leader of the assassin squad.
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Queen teuta and Sayyda are literally country queens where piracy was legal like the vikings, bringing the nickname of pirate Queen.
The other 2 I believe are in fact pirate captains. In reality Jeanne de Clisson was a privateer! So basically we have right now 1 privateer/shichibukai and 2 pirate captains.
Yeah, I'm sure ancient Romans had no problem losing their ships to Teuta, because it was "legal" in her country. If I remember well, Sayyda was a pirate first. Born into a noble family, had to escape, married a governor and later a king. In any case, historians think they are pirates so it's good enough for me.
Nitpicking much? It's all a form of piracy. There's even plenty of other examples I can't even remember. Maybe you could google them once you stop trying to be right.
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Yeah, I'm sure ancient Romans had no problem losing their ships to Teuta, because it was "legal" in her country. If I remember well, Sayyda was a pirate first. Born into a noble family, had to escape, married a governor and later a king. In any case, historians think they are pirates so it's good enough for me.
Nitpicking much? It's all a form of piracy. There's even plenty of other examples I can't even remember. Maybe you could google them once you stop trying to be right.
With that thinking than Elizabeth I and a big part of following Kings and Queens(like Anne) of England are also Pirates, given the Privateer practices.
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I understand what you're saying but for the current discussion, I don't see what the difference is between naval robbers who operated on their own and naval robbers who operated under sanctions of their rulers. It's the same line of work with same risks and dangers. The only difference is the degree. Not to mention there was nothing remotely resembling the same dominion WG has in OP.
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Seems like a pretty silly gripe to have in a world of cyborgs and gigants.
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I understand what you're saying but for the current discussion, I don't see what the difference is between naval robbers who operated on their own and naval robbers who operated under sanctions of their rulers. It's the same line of work with same risks and dangers. The only difference is the degree. Not to mention there was nothing remotely resembling the same dominion WG has in OP.
The problem isn't difference about those two things, but the fact that you should place the ruler of the country that agrees with such practices in the same place of the actual people that do them. Basically, if Vivi was the ruler of Alabasta and Alabasta allowed piracy/privateer practices, Vivi shouldn't be considered a pirate.
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Good, I didn't know. Do you know about more?
Do you know of single reason we should believe One Piece's world is supposed to be analogous to the real life golden age of piracy?
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Queen teuta and Sayyda are literally country queens where piracy was legal like the vikings, bringing the nickname of pirate Queen.
The other 2 I believe are in fact pirate captains. In reality Jeanne de Clisson was a privateer! So basically we have right now 1 privateer/shichibukai and 2 pirate captains.
Cut the crap and address my post.
You're creating a thin veneer of historicity to your bullshit, which in of itself is basing EVERYTHING on the idea that One Piece is comparative to the real world pirate age.
Which is a fundamentally bullshit claim. -
they may be disjoint but they still are groups of people and connected.they are grouped together as one of the most influential factions in the overall plot.i'm not completely aware of the term"token female" aside from the direct meaning,so let's put that aside but either way having a "most beautiful" empress as the only female in a group of 7(actually more),which is a part of the three great powers and another as the only female in a group of 11 highly influential upstarts is pretty bad imo
The definition of Tokenism isn't having a short supply of a certain type of character. Tokenism is basically an apathetic attempt on part of the creator, to just add something different to a cast. Hancock is basically the most developed out of all the Schichibukai at this point together with Jinbei. If she was a token character, she wouldn't be nearly as wellestablished as she is. I doubt Oda simply threw her in there because some form of estrogen brigade being at his neck.
actually, the criticism was about portrayal of women in general. I don't care if we get more and more female captains, I want the females shown to be capable fighters, and not to be ally-fied, defeated by fear or just be there for support.
Two examples: Naruto has a ton of capable female fighters (Sakura, Tenten, Konan, Mei, Tsunade, Temari, Chyo, etc) that aren't pulling their punches, and Seven Deadly Sins has two very capable fighters easily on par with the male characters (Diane, Merlin). And no one is complaining that the females are actually fighting on par with males.
Sakura & Elizabeth are like literally everything that's wrong about female lead characters in Shounen. I mean yeah, there might be more physical confrontation with female characters in Naruto, but you have to demand more in terms of writing female characters than them just having fights.
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The definition of Tokenism isn't having a short supply of a certain type of character. Tokenism is basically an apathetic attempt on part of the creator, to just add something different to a cast. Hancock is basically the most developed out of all the Schichibukai at this point together with Jinbei. If she was a token character, she wouldn't be nearly as wellestablished as she is. I doubt Oda simply threw her in there because some form of estrogen brigade being at his neck.
as i already, said,i'm putting aside tokenism
@sggupta:i'm not completely aware of the term"token female" aside from the direct meaning**,so let's put that aside**
but anyway,i don't really think hancock is anymore fleshed out than any other shichibukai.
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Sakura & Elizabeth are like literally everything that's wrong about female lead characters in Shounen. I mean yeah, there might be more physical confrontation with female characters in Naruto, but you have to demand more in terms of writing female characters than them just having fights.
Agreed. Female characters with actual writing and thought-behind them are far far better than generic female who can fight.
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actually, the criticism was about portrayal of women in general. I don't care if we get more and more female captains, I want the females shown to be capable fighters, and not to be ally-fied, defeated by fear or just be there for support.
Two examples: Naruto has a ton of capable female fighters (Sakura, Tenten, Konan, Mei, Tsunade, Temari, Chyo, etc) that aren't pulling their punches, and Seven Deadly Sins has two very capable fighters easily on par with the male characters (Diane, Merlin). And no one is complaining that the females are actually fighting on par with males.
And that's why Naruto never really had a decently and competently written female character. And Seven Deadly Sins also suffers from that issue.
Having female fighting ability in comparison to male doesn't make them well-written characters.
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as i already, said,i'm putting aside tokenism
but anyway,i don't really think hancock is anymore fleshed out than any other shichibukai.
Fair enough.
Agreed. Female characters with actual writing and thought-behind them are far far better than generic female who can fight.
With that being said, I don't disagree with people thinking that Nami and Robin are in need of fights themselves. Or for that matter Oda occasionally mistreating female characterisation. Which seems to be the heart of the discussion being held here. But I'd rather have Nami and Robin never fight again than have them being reduced to two Erza clones.
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I wouldn't mind a more badass female character on the SH…. Though Zoro and Sanji have the badass role covered.
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I wouldn't mind a more badass female character on the SH…. Though Zoro and Sanji have the badass role covered.
Maybe Ivankov can turn zoro into a woman. That would be worth it just for all the tears of people who dont understand the story and want to make one piece into their generic shonen battle manga
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I advise people to reread the Baroque Works storyline, and really take a look at Vivi there.
She doesn't really get any big fight or anything like that, but there's something way more assertive, hands on, and physical about the way she just IS. The way she interacts with stuff, the way she interacts with the others too.
I think really what people are bugged by more than anything is that over time Robin and Nami have come to inhabit this sort of feminine bubble apart from the rest. Like the crew has come down to a big sweaty locker room of DUDES, and a fluffy pink powder room of ladies. Almost literally with how the Sunny is set up bedroom wise.
People may think fighting differences is at issue, but I think we're all more bothered by that invisible gender wall that's formed.
And if you reread the parts when Vivi was with them, it will blow your mind how she cuts through that. In that you didn't remember noticing it when you read those parts before, but now you will. You will big time.So basically, if Oda can revive that aspect through another female character (maybe even literally Vivi coming back), that will go a long way to resolving the problem.
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@Monkey:
I advise people to reread the Baroque Works storyline, and really take a look at Vivi there.
She doesn't really get any big fight or anything like that, but there's something way more assertive, hands on, and physical about the way she just IS. The way she interacts with stuff, the way she interacts with the others too.
I think really what people are bugged by more than anything is that over time Robin and Nami have come to inhabit this sort of feminine bubble apart from the rest. Like the crew has come down to a big sweaty locker room of DUDES, and a fluffy pink powder room of ladies. Almost literally with how the Sunny is set up bedroom wise.
People may think fighting differences is at issue, but I think we're all more bothered by that invisible gender wall that's formed.
And if you reread the parts when Vivi was with them, it will blow your mind how she cuts through that. In that you didn't remember noticing it when you read those parts before, but now you will. You will big time.So basically, if Oda can revive that aspect through another female character (maybe even literally Vivi coming back), that will go a long way to resolving the problem.
16 chars of 100% agreement.
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@Monkey:
I think really what people are bugged by more than anything is that over time Robin and Nami have come to inhabit this sort of feminine bubble apart from the rest.
How do you mean?
I think of how the strawhats were interacting with each other on Punk Hazard and I really don't see what you're talking about. Especially Robin, she was meshing with the others more than she ever had been before.
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How do you mean?
I think of how the strawhats were interacting with each other on Punk Hazard and I really don't see what you're talking about. Especially Robin, she was meshing with the others more than she ever had been before.
I believe Monkey King is talking about divides like how the guys always have glow-y eyes whenever they talk about something "cool" like robots and ninjas while the women around always have blank expressions on their faces. Or how whenever the guys always have to be the ones doing stupid gag stuff like wrestling or fishing and what not that gets into a load of hijinks while the girls are expected to always lay down on lawn chair and read books. Not that every girl have to be into action-y stuff like that since we do have individual preferences, but Oda tends to enforce moments like this as if the entirety of male and female genders are literally from different planets and that these differences define every single member of those factions. That literally any guy or girl, Straw Hats or not, in those situations would take those same sides based on gender as if these stereotypical gender roles are wired into them since birth. It can look monotonous and rather ignorant, especially since its recurring. And it's especially notable when you realize how, like the King said, that Vivi broke through that really boring barrier.
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Carrot has been pretty solid in that department but I think isn't as varied as a character as Vivi.
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Carrot has been pretty solid in that department but I think isn't as varied as a character as Vivi.
She does, but she shares way too many similarities with Chopper. And both her attack style and personality don't feel that varied and memorable to me besides being goofy and into action like the guys. Any Straw Hat, male or female, should have characteristics and quirks that give them their own identity and make them extremely unique in their own right, and most of Carrot's attributes have to do with just being a rabbit. So I'm not as enthusiastic about her becoming a Straw Hat like others are, especially since I don't see how her backstory can be expanded upon (which, ironically, Pedro has the advantage of despite having no chance of joining lol).
But let's not make this into a next nakama thread, I just wanted to give my two cents real quick.
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I've now in the Drum Kingdom part of my re-read, and I forgot how much Zoro used to show personality beyond the one liners and just being the "badass" character. In Whisky Peak while he was grinning with enthusiasm fighting everyone and said he didn't join Baroque Works because he wanted to be the boss, there was quirkiness to him. He showed various facial expressions from panic to exasperation from how some of the characters acted. In Little Garden he showed to be calm in a bad situation, even going as far to be comical by striking a pose to show that if he was going to die minus well look good. Also, him willing to chop his legs off to fight to the death rather than take a defeat like that shows so much more about him as a person and his level of cool than what we've seen since the time skip. I never really noticed until now and I really do see why so many lament the state of Zoro now.
As far as what Monkey King said, there is a pretty clear difference from then and now. Heck, it's not just Vivi but Nami as well. Neither were exactly fighters in the physical sense, but they would persevere and continue towards their goal. Vivi has a weight on her shoulders and understands that she is responsible for the millions of people of her kingdom. Despite her stature she went into enemy territory to quell a rebellion, and even when things were getting desperate she was able to do the right thing of getting Nami cured first before heading to Alabasta. Add to the fact that she would get angry, happy, and sad like anyone else and like Luffy just go exploring an island carefree made her seem like the other members. Nami did take advantage of a situation to try to get money to help Vivi, but it was quickly established that she wanted to help Vivi out more than just for the money. In little Garden her and Vivi are put in the same situation as Zoro, and when free they take initiative to take down Ms. Valentine. As for Nami after they leave, she shows her side of being tough by putting her well being aside to help Vivi and her people by pleading to continue forward. We haven't really had that for a long time in female characters.
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Vivi is really an amazing character, and I can't await her return. Hopefully she gets a big role in the reverie, and I hope the reverie is an actual arc and not just 2 pages. People might confuse me wanting a capable female antagonist that doesn't end up being defeated by fear, or being ally-fied, with disliking every female character introduced so far. Not everyone needs to be a fighter.
But with the Big Mom arc, and her havin 40 daughters, there must be plenty of capable female fighters in there. There is brulee, and the woman with the huge head (who, if I'm not wrong, retrieved the eggs for the teaparty) and big mom herself.
I'll just be majorly annoyed if she ends up being an ally
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@Count:
I believe Monkey King is talking about divides like how the guys always have glow-y eyes whenever they talk about something "cool" like robots and ninjas while the women around always have blank expressions on their faces.
And it's especially notable when you realize how, like the King said, that Vivi broke through that really boring barrier.
I don't see a problem with any of that. This may come as a surprise but men and women typically do have differing interests and there's nothing wrong with that.
And I still don't see what you're talking about with Vivi and breaking through "barriers." When the guys were doing goofy guy stuff, Vivi never joined in. Looking though the chapters she seemed to be in the same "girls' zone" as Nami. It seems like you guys are confusing being headstrong and responsible with gender neutrality. She was still just as feminine as Nami and later Robin, but just way more active in the plot since it chiefly involved her at that time.
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I don't see a problem with any of that. This may come as a surprise but men and women typically do have differing interests and there's nothing wrong with that.
But that's the key word though. "Typically". Women are still made up of individuals with their own preferences, and both genders can have plenty of similarities in what choices, habits, and personalities they have. And Oda homes in on Nami, Robin, and pretty much every other female since at least the timeskip in this regard as if they're ALWAYS on some other status. It's just boring and repetitive with how much Oda recycles the same gags and activity dynamics based on gender rather than personality. Especially when it's always only the guys who are tasked with being viewed as idiots while the women always have to be the critical or passive ones as well.
And I still don't see what you're talking about with Vivi and breaking through "barriers." When the guys were doing goofy guy stuff, Vivi never joined in. Looking though the chapters she seemed to be in the same "girls' zone" as Nami. It seems like you guys are confusing being headstrong and responsible with gender neutrality. She was still just as feminine as Nami and later Robin, but just way more active in the plot since it chiefly involved her at that time.
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!Moments like those where Vivi can act just as goofy and acclimated to taking action like the guys were pretty cool, and she easily stood apart as a memorable female in the series. That coupled with other traits like her obligation to her kingdom, learning to be a proper ruler, wanting to maintain peace, be a fighter in her own right helped, and sometimes still being critical of the others made her a well-rounded character that didn't become one-dimensional and allowed her to fit right in with the main cast. She definitely shared traits with Nami and was often assertive like her, but she wasn't as frequently alienated from the guys either.
Even Franky Tank has a point about Nami not pushing herself in tense situations and battles like in pre-timeskip, typically favoring to act as support from the sidelines, act cowardly, or get in quick sucker punch-esque attacks. And Robin's situation in the scope of action and active contributing/enduring speaks for itself with how much she gets sidelined despite having such a creative and powerful power. She's mainly just used for exposition or supporting other characters fight alike in Dressrosa.
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@Count:
But that's the key phrase though. "Typically". Women are still made up of individuals with their own preferences, and both genders can have plenty of similarities in what choices, habits, and personalities they have. And Oda homes in on Nami, Robin, and pretty much every other female since at least the timeskip in this regard as if they're ALWAYS on some other status. It's just boring and repetitive with how much Oda recycles the same gags and activity dynamics based on gender rather than personality. Especially when it's always only the guys who are tasked with being viewed as idiots while the women always have to be the critical or passive ones as well.
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qeFwifpTIRo/V9YPm5P8meI/AAAAAAADOxg/T4MPJpnMK7cV1zvRsG4U1zYCrMC9eNw5QCHM/s16000/0115-012.png
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aDp5Po2qQmU/V9YO8iv4H3I/AAAAAAADOqM/hCuj-pLMDycZw8Pt3Og9Ard7JkFlPpVFgCHM/s16000/0113-011.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EDpAWdICmaQ/V9YKxNAEhfI/AAAAAAADez0/LYTvCdGLFao577AWv_oN-Q1PMc0schn-QCHM/s16000/0132-002.png
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s4BP6V9Ip20/V9YL-af08fI/AAAAAAADezI/EsCy1obkHn4R4-bveVbCUgbRKE4tfyvEgCHM/s16000/0126-005.pngMoments like those where Vivi can act just as goofy and acclimated to taking action like the guys were pretty cool, and she easily stood apart as a memorable female in the series. That coupled with other traits like her obligation to her kingdom, learning to be a proper ruler, wanting to maintain peace, be a fighter in her own right helped, and sometimes still being critical of the others made her a well-rounded character that didn't become one-dimensional and allowed her to fit right in with the main cast. She definitely shared traits with Nami and was often assertive like her, but she wasn't as frequently alienated from the guys either.
My favorite part is the page after Nami walks off where the Otter draws her face perfectly, and her response is "Oh, aren't you a good artist".
Jumping off the last page Count Mario gave, there also seems to be a huge difference in how the females take action in general. In that scene Nami and Vivi just barely survived being suffocated by candle wax, and took the initiative to take out one of the badies. All the way through Alabasta it felt like they would put themselves on the line even if they were afraid or things looked bad. In recent stuff they generally just go with the flow and don't really do much. Robin came in and saved Rebecca once, but beyond that she just came and was there for events. Nami before would take advantage of situations to sneak around and steal stuff, or in the case of Whiskey Peak get herself in a position to be paid for doing services. I can't think of her doing anything like that for a long time. Oda just made a really great female character in Vivi, and since then he's had a hard time getting anywhere close to her in terms of female characters.
Also thanks Count Mario. I knew there was something there that was a huge difference, but I couldn't think of how to begin to describe it.
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@The:
My favorite part is the page after Nami walks off where the Otter draws her face perfectly, and her response is "Oh, aren't you a good artist".
Jumping off the last page Count Mario gave, there also seems to be a huge difference in how the females take action in general. In that scene Nami and Vivi just barely survived being suffocated by candle wax, and took the initiative to take out one of the badies. All the way through Alabasta it felt like they would put themselves on the line even if they were afraid or things looked bad. In recent stuff they generally just go with the flow and don't really do much. Robin came in and saved Rebecca once, but beyond that she just came and was there for events. Nami before would take advantage of situations to sneak around and steal stuff, or in the case of Whiskey Peak get herself in a position to be paid for doing services. I can't think of her doing anything like that for a long time. Oda just made a really great female character in Vivi, and since then he's had a hard time getting anywhere close to her in terms of female characters.
Also thanks Count Mario. I knew there was something there that was a huge difference, but I couldn't think of how to begin to describe it.
I posted that last page just because you specifically mentioned it, as well as heavily agreeing with how Nami and Robin are portrayed on the action-side of things in arcs as of late lol. No problem!
To be fair, I'll give Nami props for being able to pin down Wanda on Zou (with cool parallelism to Bellemere with how the scene was drawn compared to when she met Arlong) and being able to harm Brûlée. But the latter's comprised of a couple attacks (the wand extension and sudden lightning) Brûlée never could have anticipated, and Wanda went down fairly easily due to being in a weakened state. They're really not that different from how pitiful Brook's fight with Jora was. Not that fights themselves are the problem of course (although having at least ONE for Robin and Brook would be very appreciated), but I would love it if Nami and Robin got pushed in terms of endurance and confidence like Nami in Little Garden and her fight with Miss Doublefinger, or several of Usopp's feats in combat. Moments like that really allow the perseverance and growth of those characters to shine, especially when it comes down to how much they're willing to risk to protect their crew and dreams.
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@Count:
I posted that last page just because you specifically mentioned it, as well as heavily agreeing with how Nami and Robin are portrayed on the action-side of things in arcs as of late lol. No problem!
To be fair, I'll give Nami props for being able to pin down Wanda on Zou (with cool parallelism to Bellemere with how the scene was drawn compared to when she met Arlong) and being able to harm Brûlée. But the latter's comprised of a couple attacks (the wand extension and sudden lightning) Brûlée never could have anticipated, and Wanda went down fairly easily due to being in a weakened state. They're really not that different from how pitiful Brook's fight with Jora was. Not that fights themselves are the problem of course (although having at least ONE for Robin and Brook would be very appreciated), but I would love it if Nami and Robin got pushed in terms of endurance and confidence like Nami in Little Garden and her fight with Miss Doublefinger, or several of Usopp's feats in combat. Moments like that really allow the perseverance and growth of those characters to shine, especially when it comes down to how much they're willing to risk to protect their crew and dreams.
I was mainly talking about the second paragraph you had. I was trying to think about how Vivi worked well as a character and with her interactions with the crew but came up blank. Also, I did manage to forget the fact I mentioned that page and it was only a few posts ago.
Also, count me down for Brook and Robin getting their own fight again at some point. Robin only had one which was a chapter long, and Brook had one which wasn't even given a whole lot of focus. At this point though Brook needs the most screen time out of the current Straw Hats because there is very little going for him.
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@The:
I was mainly talking about the second paragraph you had. I was trying to think about how Vivi worked well as a character and with her interactions with the crew but came up blank. Also, I did manage to forget the fact I mentioned that page and it was only a few posts ago.
I know that you were referring to the second paragraph almost exclusively lol. Like I said before, it's no problem. Different users can contribute to different aspects of a topic, especially when it comes to which ones they are more specialized in recounting and giving feedback for.
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Also, count me down for Brook and Robin getting their own fight again at some point. Robin only had one which was a chapter long, and Brook had one which wasn't even given a whole lot of focus. At this point though Brook needs the most screen time out of the current Straw Hats because there is very little going for him.
The fact that the plot line of Brook and Pedro's recon mission isn't getting anywhere near as much panel time as the Seducing Woods or the Vinsmokes worries me since I'm so accustomed to Brook not contributing much to arcs besides fulfilling humor and combat support. But we're still probably not even halfway through Totland yet, so I'm trying to hold hope. Oda seems to like pairing Brook up with other less noteworthy swordsmen though. First Kinemon and now Pedro. A part of me is concerned he makes pairings like that because he doesn't feel like Brook can hold his own in both a battle and story perspective compared to Zoro and Law, which would be an awful shame.
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@The:
At this point though Brook needs the most screen time out of the current Straw Hats because there is very little going for him.
Yeah Brook has always been my least favorite Strawhat. If he could get something to do other than Skull jokes and being a pervert that would be great
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Yeah Brook has always been my least favorite Strawhat. If he could get something to do other than Skull jokes and being a pervert that would be great
He could always pathetically hand over more of his fights to Zoro like in Thriller Bark to stand out more…
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I don't see a problem with any of that. This may come as a surprise but men and women typically do have differing interests and there's nothing wrong with that.
Congratulations on being aware of stuff outside your room, the next step is interacting with that stuff though. Like before you try and take the "WELL IN REAL LIFE" tone.
And I still don't see what you're talking about with Vivi and breaking through "barriers." When the guys were doing goofy guy stuff, Vivi never joined in.
Correct. When Luffy wanted to go off and explore the rainforests of Little Garden Vivi agreed with Nami that she'd rather stay on the ship. Usopp meanwhile ventured out with Luffy to get dirty in the woods.
Good memory. -
I think my biggest criticism would be how Oda handled Ace in the series.
I know I'm supposed to care about Ace's death but…well the guy didn't DO enough for me to care to begin with;
-Stopped it snowing once in Drum.
-Stopped Smoker in Alabasta and briefly caught up with Luffy.
-Appeared on Buggy's ship at some point...can't even remember if that was in the manga.
-Helped a girl deliver some milk in a cover story. Okay.
-Fought Blackbeard and lost off screen resulting in his capture.The flashback was nice, but honestly at the time of Ace's death after Bon Chan's sacrifice, after Oars Jr's sacrifice, etc seeing Ace throw all of it away because Akainu did a playground insult at him and nearly getting Luffy killed in the process(and Whitebeard very actually killed) I felt nothing but bitterness towards him.
Personally I felt like Ace's adventure needed to be showcased a little more in order for the emotional impact to be there, but looking at how popular the guy is, and that people still weep for his death six and a half years after it happened it appears I'm in the minority on this.
Ace felt like such a minor character who barely interacted with the crew or achieved much on panel prior to his death I just ended up feeling annoyed at Ace as I watched him bleed out.
I felt sorry for Luffy of course seeing the hell he went through with Impel Down and Marineford, but just felt like Ace ignoring Whitebeard's command for him to run, the second command Ace had ignored mind you, was more than enough justification to watch Akainu kill him. In the end, Ace's death had the opposite effect on me. Rather than see him as a great character as many had the execution of his execution made me actively dislike him.Again; I'm aware this is just my very very personal opinion as this guy is STUPIDLY popular with the masses, but it really wouldn't have taken much to make Ace's death have more impact and make me care for the guy simply by showcasing him more in the inbetween arc transitions or skip the section where he falls for a taunt and ignores Whitebeard (AGAIN; wasn't the end of the CP9 arc all about having to respect your captain's commands?) and have Akainu immediately nearly kill Luffy as they retreated.
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Yeah, getting caught by Akainu's pathetic bait rubbed me the wrong way too. Like, was there no better way to make him die but to show him act like an immature kid?
Oh well, like you say, it's been a while.
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It doesn't help that Whitebeard's death happening soon after overshadows Ace's death a bit in terms of pure epicness and significance in the series. And due to not dying for something as stupid as being stubborn over trash talk.
I still can't believe that the anime animated something so priceless as this gif. Akainu might be a government dog, but at least he's got style. :ninja:
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Atleast him falling for trash talk is entirely consistent with how he's been portrayed all along.
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It definitely is. I appreciate that we also saw Ace being that stubborn in his flashback when fighting Bluejam (and I believe it happened a bit during the Blackbeard fight although I cant remember specific quotes). It's good to know that it's a recurring facet of his character and not an isolated moment of just because. Still doesn't make his death more effective emotionally for me though.
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We all know that Akainu is hot and is an expert in fisting. :ninja:
I think one of the major reasons that I felt 0 emotional attachment towards Ace death was that it was far far overhyped by the fandom as 'The Saddest Scene in OP' (I'm the type to do a small amount of research before starting a series to have a rough idea of what I'm getting into). So maybe I expected… more, because OP is one of the very few mangas which genuinely touched me.
But yeah, after reading the whole scene the only thought that went into my mind was 'Damn, Ace is an idiot.'. Your whole crew, all of your allies, your sworn brother and thousands of marines fight a huge war to save you, and you just let their effort go to waste and endanger the life of your brother just because you can't handle some trash talking. I know its an integral part of his character, still… Quite a number of people in the fandom do try to justify his actions with some well thought out points, but his death and his character in general just didn't work out for me.
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@Count:
It definitely is. I appreciate that we also saw Ace being that stubborn in his flashback when fighting Bluejam (and I believe it happened a bit during the Blackbeard fight although I cant remember specific quotes). It's good to know that it's a recurring facet of his character and not an isolated moment of just because. Still doesn't make his death more effective emotionally for me though.
To me it just showed he never matured in that aspect. There's an emphasis on how Roger was the same but in my opinion Ace should have been affected more by a great pirate he had followed than by the great pirate whose genes he had. Just didn't work for me that much.
Even pre time skip Luffy showed a dose of maturity and level headedness that Ace failed to show in a situation that was lot more serious than anything Luffy had gone through.
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Honestly though, it's fricking Poochie. Who cares how he died.
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To me it just showed he never matured in that aspect. There's an emphasis on how Roger was the same but in my opinion Ace should have been affected more by a great pirate he had followed than by the great pirate whose genes he had. Just didn't work for me that much.
Even pre time skip Luffy showed a dose of maturity and level headedness that Ace failed to show in a situation that was lot more serious than anything Luffy had gone through.
To be fair though, can you expect somebody like Luffy to be level-headed if he were in Ace's position and heard Akainu trash talking Ace or the Straw Hats? I definitely agree about Ace, but Luffy out of all people isn't a proper comparison. Especially when even characters like Usopp have risked their lives in battle instead of retreating due to his friend's dreams being laughed at in Alabasta.
I'd also like to add that Ace spent a long time crying and feeling sorry for himself for putting his adoptive family through all of these hurdles to save one person like him, especially from his childhood trauma of being viewed as a mistake. On one hand, it makes him taking Akainu's trash talking more understandable, but it makes me less sympathetic due to not properly acknowledging why they went through all of that for his sake and blowing it all on words.
Honestly though, it's fricking Poochie. Who cares how he died.
When Poochie's death is desperately being conveyed to be sad and that we should feel sad as if he was a character we grew attached to, then it's going to grab everybody's attention whether they want it to or not. Besides, Poochie got redundantly reincarnated into Sabo. :ninja:
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Though i agree that ace wan't really someone we were supposed to feel attached to,(though that was probably intentional),i for one felt his death was impactful,imo even more so than whitebeard.there are many reasons for this,but since i am travelling right now i'll bring up the main reason i can think of right now:consequencea.all through the series,we have had a happy go lucky look at pirates.like,even the baddies who are pirates are at worst put into jail.but with ace,we come to see for the first time what your actions may lead to as a pirate.it also helped that unlike a lot of pirate we have seen,ace did't have a lot of desires and mostly became a pirate because he wouldnt be able to have a normal life anyway.he was sort of the delinquient who became a pirate coz he had no proper place in life,which he then ultmately found
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It's also important to remember it's basically the first time in the series a kinda-sorta major character actually died.
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It's also important to remember it's basically the first time in the series a kinda-sorta major character actually died.
I was about to argue this but then I remembered Merry's soul is inherited by Sunny. If it counts though THAT was an emotionally impactful death for many.
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I was about to argue this but then I remembered Merry's soul is inherited by Sunny. If it counts though THAT was an emotionally impactful death for many.
I know a lot of people that obviously won't state it because they're inviting a flame war, but people that didn't really care about merry's death that much because of how supernatural the idea was.
My first watch I kept trying to solve it and it didn't effect me that much.
I was like " wait what? How is this happening? I mean it is kind of sad but where is the logic?
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@Long:
I know a lot of people that obviously won't state it because they're inviting a flame war, but people that didn't really care about merry's death that much because of how supernatural the idea was.
My first watch I kept trying to solve it and it didn't effect me that much.
I was like " wait what? How is this happening? I mean it is kind of sad but where is the logic?
I thought Merry speaking was a bit too cheesy and random (even by the standard of ships having a "soul") for my taste, personally. Not that it still wasn't sad, but it would have preferred a quiet symbolic farewell in her passing.
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@Long:
but people that didn't really care about merry's death that much because of how supernatural the idea was.
@Count:
I thought Merry speaking was a bit too cheesy and random
jackiechanwhat.jpg
This is a series where the moon has a breathable atmosphere, animal-people space pirates on it and an army of ancient robots now being lead by a self-made-by-eating-a-magic-fruit thunder god with giant earlobes and drums growing out of his back.
A ship having a soul and talking(coughcoughbigmomcoughcough) is the least of the "random" and "supernatural" ideas of the series.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klabautermann
It's a legit mythological creature. The fact that one spawned due to the strawhats treatment of the ship is a level of symbolism all on it's own. Having the ship remain a lifeless chunk of wood would completely destroy the moment.