Do I get a prize if I saw it first ?
Chapter 790: "Heaven and Earth"
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Well, of course, when his life was in danger, Doflamingo decided that the only way out was to NOT use the strings that were shown to be basically unbreakable, and instead use lesser string, that could be easily broken through, to show that he is a real man!
Seriously, and people wonder why I call his powers plot convenience personified.
What ?
Most people that Don use parasite on are no where close to gear 4 luffy in power \ strength so no surprise he got out of it .
IMO it was a no brainer that when you at a certain level you could have gotten out of it .
If not he would have been the strongest character in the manga and would not fear a yonko. -
What ?
Most people that Don use parasite on are no where close to gear 4 luffy in power \ strength so no surprise he got out of it .
IMO it was a no brainer that when you at a certain level you could have gotten out of it .
If not he would have been the strongest character in the manga and would not fear a yonko.I believe he was talking about the web shield.
For someone who can create shitload of strings and do practically anything he wants with them to resort to a string spear and a string shield… Not really impressed. Dofla got really lazy.
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I believe he was talking about the web shield.
For someone who can create shitload of strings and do practically anything he wants with them to resort to a string spear and a string shield… Not really impressed. Dofla got really lazy.
Don did the web shield to stop the normal gear 4 attack so i can understand that since his strings stop gear 3 ,4 and a building .
Plus when you look at it those same string spear attacks is what beat luffy haki early on .
Don does a lot with his strings but attack wise he rather boring looking at his move set he has done in his battles . -
What ?
Most people that Don use parasite on are no where close to gear 4 luffy in power \ strength so no surprise he got out of it .
IMO it was a no brainer that when you at a certain level you could have gotten out of it .
If not he would have been the strongest character in the manga and would not fear a yonko.I'm not talking about the parasite right now, but the web he used to protect himself.
Not to mention, which was also pointed out earlier, he is capable of easily severing limbs. He could have crippled Luffy the moment he grabbed him.
So yes, by all accounts, if Doflamingo used all skills available to him, and if all his strings were all as strong as the birdcage one, he would be rightly unbeatable.
And we don't even get a throwaway, token line explaining why that is not the case.
So yes, I believe that Doflamingo, when it comes to his powers, is as strong or as weak as the plot demands, not to mention he is guilty of immense stupidity in not using all he has to his advantage.
Which in turn impacts my enjoyment of Luffy's win. I don't feel like he earned it. I feel like he got it thanks to Oda inducing stupidity into Doflamingo, and artificially adjusting his power to allow for it. It feels like a cop out to me.
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Not really a cop out since Oda fucked up by making Doffy to strong for Luffy so it only makes sense to me in my eyes.
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Maybe next chapter will switch to Sanjis?
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The title of "king" is so constrictive. The instant Doffy takes a mongrel like Luffy seriously, that is defeat in his eyes :ninja:
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Sanji's dead. Big Mom sunk Sunny. It's going to be really tragic when revealed, and show us the real threat of New World.
Why did you think Oda spend so much time establishing that Sanji is outclassed by his enemies?
:ninja:
But more seriously, I expect the next chapter to end with the incoming Den Den Mushi call from him, after we begin wrap up of Dressrosa.
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I'm not talking about the parasite right now, but the web he used to protect himself.
Not to mention, which was also pointed out earlier, he is capable of easily severing limbs. He could have crippled Luffy the moment he grabbed him.
So yes, by all accounts, if Doflamingo used all skills available to him, and if all his strings were all as strong as the birdcage one, he would be rightly unbeatable.
And we don't even get a throwaway, token line explaining why that is not the case.
So yes, I believe that Doflamingo, when it comes to his powers, is as strong or as weak as the plot demands, not to mention he is guilty of immense stupidity in not using all he has to his advantage.
Which in turn impacts my enjoyment of Luffy's win. I don't feel like he earned it. I feel like he got it thanks to Oda inducing stupidity into Doflamingo, and artificially adjusting his power to allow for it. It feels like a cop out to me.
And luffy could have gone in gear 4 as soon as he was hit with parasite instead of waiting a few secs .
Also don can not easily cut off limbs yes i saw what he did to oars but he is fodder . -
Interesting claim. Maybe you're right. Would you care to elaborate?
You need some connection or a bond to someone before you can be emotionally invested.
The stronger the bond is, the more you like/love/appreciate a person the more he/she is able to hurt you in the end.
Think about girls/guys you kind of loved and how it felt when they cheated on you or they left you.
Once you let a person in your heart, invest feelings, you´re an open target for them.
That´s why it can be hard for people to create new bonds and trust to other people once they were hurt or dissappointed by a person they let into their life.
Making you vulnerable to someone else, shows how much you care for a person and how much trust you put in him/her….being dissappointed in this stage produces really strong feelings, which can result in hatred.
Depends on how much the person did hurt you in the end, but those you once loved are the ones capable of hurting you in that specific heartbreaking way.I personally see (as it is with everything) some exceptions, like someone killing/hurting someone you love (even yourself), where you could start hating this person.
Non the less he interfered / took something from you that you loved and that´s why you can feel such emotions towards a stranger.
Same could be said for objects like a car that was stolen etc. but here you should get your priorities right i guess :) -
You should add a poll to the thread regarding Doffy's defeat.
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Sanji's dead. Big Mom sunk Sunny. It's going to be really tragic when revealed, and show us the real threat of New World.
Why did you think Oda spend so much time establishing that Sanji is outclassed by his enemies?
:ninja:
But more seriously, I expect the next chapter to end with the incoming Den Den Mushi call from him, after we begin wrap up of Dressrosa.
All the Sanji hate will go away once Sanji cooks some turtle soup with eggs(ewww). Not long now, just a few chapters…
I bet Sanji will make so much fire, even the fire fruit user will be jelous.
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@uniaka:
All the Sanji hate will pay off, not long now. Tamago is going down.
I was being sarcastic, just so you know.
And honestly, Sanji is one of my favorite characters on the manga, and I would take him over most side characters in Dressrosa any day of the week.
At the same time, Dressrosa left me slightly cynical when it comes to Oda and pay offs… but who knows. I would immensly enjoy being proven wrong.
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@uniaka:
All the Sanji hate will pay off, not long now. Tamago is going down.
I wonder how oda going to show it .
Is he going to do it real time or in a flashback. -
And luffy could have gone in gear 4 as soon as he was hit with parasite instead of waiting a few secs .
Also don can not easily cut off limbs yes i saw what he did to oars but he is fodder .Could we please not throw the term fodder around. It's really getting obnoxious.
I, for one, do not consider Oars a fodder. There would be no reason to dedicate that much time to his defeat if he were so. And yes, we can massively downplay it, but I would argue that it's still easier to cut through a rubber man's tiny arm, then cut through leg of second biggest giant seen to date.
And if that doesn't convince you: Law and his arm. Unless he is a fodder too?
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I wonder how oda going to show it .
Is he going to do it real time or in a flashback.If it's real time, then the battle was loooong.
What if sunny team escaped to Zou, Big mom crew follow them there, and the fight starts now? ( real time)
They are likely to get help even from heart pirates.
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Could please not throw the term fodder around. It's really getting obnoxious.
I, for one, do not consider Oars a fodder. There would be no reason to dedicate that much time to his defeat if he were so. And yes, we can massively downplay it, but I would argue that it's still easier to cut through a rubber man's tiny arm, then cut through leg of second biggest seen to date.
And if that doesn't convince you: Law and his arm. Unless he is a fodder too?
Don did his string attacks vs sanji , luffy and law they hardly did any damage or there were block with haki .
These are the same attacks that were cutting up builds and don't forget oars did not have haki .
Also when Don cut of law arm off he had his feet around his arm while holding it in place .
Good luck doing that to luffy since he is not only faster and stronger but he can change the size of his body parts .Size does not mean tougher or stronger in fiction so saying it should be easier to cut off luffy limbs cause he smaller makes no sense.
EDIT Also Oda spending a few panels with Oars don't mean he is not fodder compare to Don strength wise.
If we use luffy as eg he was fodder in that war vs a lot of characters and he is the MC. -
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I had hopes that Dofla would play dirtier when it came down just to him vs Luffy. He played dirty in Marineford and he played dirty during each of the skirmishes he had with Luffy, using his clone and tying his wrists together.
Wouldn't it have been awesome if there was more focus towards Observation. Dofla tries to slip a noose around Luffy's neck, but at the last second, Luffy realizes it and blocks it with his Hardened arms and dodges. Or Luffy having to Harden parts of his limbs at the last moment to avoid losing them.
To think I wondered how in hell could Luffy possibly fight someone like Dofla, after seeing how he played around on Marineford, and earlier in Dressrosa. Handycap!
Before this arc, I had increasingly higher expectations of OP and I think it's time to start reducing them. After all, is it so weird for a manga with almost 800 chapters to become a little stale?
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For a moment I thought this thread was a "general whine thread".
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Don did his string attacks vs sanji , luffy and law they hardly did any damage or there were block with haki .
These are the same attacks that were cutting up builds and don't forget oars did not have haki .
Also when Don cut of law arm off he had his feet around his arm while holding it in place .
Good luck doing that to luffy since he is not only faster and stronger but he can change the size of his body parts .Size does not mean tougher or stronger in fiction so saying it should be easier to cut off luffy limbs cause he smaller makes no sense.
EDIT Also Oda spending a few panels with Oars don't mean he is not fodder compare to Don strength wise.
If we use luffy as eg he was fodder in that war vs a lot of characters and he is the MC.Always assumed Dofla tied his strings around Oars' leg to cut it. In the panel where the leg is cut off, we can see Dofla twitching fingers on his both hands. When he cut Croc's head off, I think the same thing happened. Wrap sharp strings around a piece of meat, pull both ends, voila.
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I had hopes that Dofla would play dirtier when it came down just to him vs Luffy. He played dirty in Marineford and he played dirty during each of the skirmishes he had with Luffy, using his clone and tying his wrists together.
Wouldn't it have been awesome if there was more focus towards Observation. Dofla tries to slip a noose around Luffy's neck, but at the last second, Luffy realizes it and blocks it with his Hardened arms and dodges. Or Luffy having to Harden parts of his limbs at the last moment to avoid losing them.
To think I wondered how in hell could Luffy possibly fight someone like Dofla, after seeing how he played around on Marineford, and earlier in Dressrosa. Handycap!
Before this arc, I had increasingly higher expectations of OP and I think it's time to start reducing them. After all, is it so weird for a manga with almost 800 chapters to not become a little stale?
Much harder to play dirty when someone knows your tricks .
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Much harder to play dirty when someone knows your tricks .
That's no excuse. At the very least, you can use those same tricks to fool the enemy and create openings.
And it's not like Luffy knows Dofla's every trick. Come on.
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Oda has not drawn sanji for so long that he's forgotten how to draw the curly eyebrows.
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That's no excuse. At the very least, you can use those same tricks to fool the enemy and create openings.
And it's not like Luffy knows Dofla's every trick. Come on.
I think you are selling luffy short .
For eg in this chapter luffy saw staying on the ground was a disadvantage so the first thing he did in gear 4 was go up into the air.
Yes he does not know all of don tricks but luffy not stupid when it comes to fighting .
Also this after the time skip so we don't know what moves luffy have also .Always assumed Dofla tied his strings around Oars' leg to cut it. In the panel where the leg is cut off, we can see Dofla twitching fingers on his both hands. When he cut Croc's head off, I think the same thing happened. Wrap sharp strings around a piece of meat, pull both ends, voila.
For croc we did not see his hands when he did his attack .
For oars maybe can't say you are wrong . -
I think you are selling luffy short .
For eg in this chapter luffy saw staying on the ground was a disadvantage so the first thing he did in gear 4 was go up into the air.
Yes he does not know all of don tricks but luffy not stupid when it comes to fighting .I'm not selling Luffy short. It's just my opinion that nothing excuses Dofla not using attacks he had used against other opponents or suddenly resorting to simple attack patterns. Don't know if it's Oda getting fatigued a little or is it just me asking too much (can't just be that) but something is deffinitely not right. And I know it's not only me.
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I'm not selling Luffy short. It's just my opinion that nothing excuses Dofla not using attacks he had used against other opponents or suddenly resorting to simple attack patterns. Don't know if it's Oda getting fatigued a little or is it just me asking too much (can't just be that) but something is deffinitely not right. And I know it's not only me.
We saw don did one attack during the war and you can't even be certain that it was that .
What other attacks that don did that he did not use on luffy during the 3 rounds they fought ?
He did not use Bullet String vs luffy but not like that would have work anyway .
Even during his fight vs law Don had simple attack patterns , your making out the character to be more than he was . -
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I had hopes that Dofla would play dirtier when it came down just to him vs Luffy. He played dirty in Marineford and he played dirty during each of the skirmishes he had with Luffy, using his clone and tying his wrists together.Wouldn't it have been awesome if there was more focus towards Observation. Dofla tries to slip a noose around Luffy's neck, but at the last second, Luffy realizes it and blocks it with his Hardened arms and dodges. Or Luffy having to Harden parts of his limbs at the last moment to avoid losing them.To think I wondered how in hell could Luffy possibly fight someone like Dofla, after seeing how he played around on Marineford, and earlier in Dressrosa. Handycap! Before this arc, I had increasingly higher expectations of OP and I think it's time to start reducing them. After all, is it so weird for a manga with almost 800 chapters to become a little stale?
Yeah you are right, but that also happened to Crocodile, Enel, Lucci etc. Luffy won even though it is like this Doffy>Luffy. I still put Doffy higher as Luffy, because Doffy can fight 24/7 at max level while Luffy can only fight like 20 Minutes at max Level. Plus, Oda nerfed Doffy or/and made Luffy stronger as he actually is. But since Doffy tanked and did alot, before the fight started, i give Luffy that Victory. But i don't believe that Luffy is stronger than Doffy. Luffy has still a long way to go to reach Doffys Level, imo.
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That's no excuse. At the very least, you can use those same tricks to fool the enemy and create openings.
Same reasoning goes for supervillains who only use a grand scheme once, because it did go wrong once because of a tiny mistake or stuff.
Instead of just doing it one more time without the flaw, nahh let´s create another grand scheme ;) -
We saw don did one attack during the war and you can't even be certain that it was that .
What other attacks that don did that he did not use on luffy during the 3 rounds they fought ?
He did not use Bullet String vs luffy but not like that would have work anyway .
Even during his fight vs law Don had simple attack patterns , your making out the character to be more than he was .You think Dofla isn't able to wrap strings around someone's limb and then pull both ends to cut it off? I can be pretty certain.
It's not just not using attacks. On one side, we have Dofla cutting Luffy from the back with a clone only to punch him in the face in the next moment. Or, kicking Luffy in the face followed up instantly by tying his hands behind his back. On the other side, we have Dofla just reacting to what Luffy does, while he should be the one who is one step ahead, thanks to his abilities. Even when Luffy goes into G4, especially since Dofla can control his environment as well.
I'm not really making Dofla more than he is, it's more like Oda made him into less than he was during the course of the fight.
You remind me of some Naruto and Bleach apologists I discussed with couple of years ago. Manga could do no wrong by them. There was always reasonable explanation why something happened. Nothing was ever bad. I live for the day when I see you criticize something.
@Don:
Same reasoning goes for supervillains who only use a grand scheme once, because it did go wrong once because of a tiny mistake or stuff.
Instead of just doing it one more time without the flaw, nahh let´s create another grand scheme ;)Those two are completely different things.
You're talking about planning and logistics. I'm talking about chess during a fight. Making your opponent move like you want him to. Yes, you can use the fact that he knows some of your tactics to fool him into getting into a position where you'll be able to strike him. It's pretty common in Shounen.
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@zeff:
Oda has not drawn sanji for so long that he's forgotten how to draw the curly eyebrows.
! http://41.media.tumblr.com/e52c38236c62e1ff3ac44351f57f9bcf/tumblr_nq5ko5rGtp1u6www0o2_1280.png
What's wrong ? 16 chars
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@zeff:
Oda has not drawn sanji for so long that he's forgotten how to draw the curly eyebrows.
! http://41.media.tumblr.com/e52c38236c62e1ff3ac44351f57f9bcf/tumblr_nq5ko5rGtp1u6www0o2_1280.png
If Sanji will be absent any longer, Oda will forget how to draw him and he will look just like his wanted poster.:ninja:
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You think Dofla isn't able to wrap strings around someone's limb and then pull both ends to cut it off? I can be pretty certain.
It's not just not using attacks. On one side, we have Dofla cutting Luffy from the back with a clone only to punch him in the face in the next moment. Or, kicking Luffy in the face followed up instantly by tying his hands behind his back. On the other side, we have Dofla just reacting to what Luffy does, while he should be the one who is one step ahead, thanks to his abilities. Even when Luffy goes into G4, especially since Dofla can control his environment as well.
I'm not really making Dofla more than he is, it's more like Oda made him into less than he was during the course of the fight.
You remind me of some Naruto and Bleach apologists I discussed with couple of years ago. Manga could do no wrong by them. There was always reasonable explanation why something happened. Nothing was ever bad. I live for the day when I see you criticize something.
It has nothing to do with being a apologists but you thinking that a character is something he is not .
Or that another character can't do anything vs his moves.
As the fight went on you can see more and more that don moves were becoming useless vs luffy .
Why should don be one step ahead of luffy , he is not faster or that much stronger even more so when luffy in gear 4.
Don control the environment in chapter 785 when he was turning the whole city to strings and luffy still dodge and overpower him.
The same thing happen again in this chapter don use the environment and his moves but luffy overpower him with gear 4.EDIT also i do criticize manga for eg saying PH was to long or how oda won't give certain character fights etc etc.
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After seeing Law how he can put his own arm again, i thought, okay, Jozu can do the same… but no. Oda discriminate characters!
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It has nothing to do with being a apologists but you thinking that a character is something he is not .
Or that another character can't do anything vs his moves.
As the fight went on you can see more and more that don moves were becoming useless vs luffy .
Why should don be one step ahead of luffy , he is not faster or that much stronger even more so when luffy in gear 4.
Don control the environment in chapter 785 when he was turning the whole city to strings and luffy still dodge and overpower him.
The same thing happen again in this chapter don use the environment and his moves but luffy overpower him with gear 4.EDIT also i do criticize manga for eg saying PH was to long or how oda won't give certain character fights .
He should be one step ahead of Luffy because his ability is more versatile. He can create numerous strings and control them as he wishes. Combine Ordeal of String and Ordeal of Iron from Skypiea, and you get Dofla.
He should have been able to create various traps or barriers to slow Luffy or fool him with more clones. The way he used environment to get Luffy was pretty simplistic. There were no complex maneuvers. Just stabs of big white string spikes. Mind you, he didn't even try to get close to attack while Luffy was avoiding Whites. Lazy.
Doubt this serves any purpose, because you'll just find another way to justify it.
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Now we get to see Jinbes triumphant return with a means of leaving the island to go after the Sunny, right? Riiiight? :D
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I don't get it. Is Luffy's brute force stronger than Zoro and an Admiral? Couldn't Fugitora cut the strings? Dunno what Oda's thinking here..
Heh…you nailed it.Oda clearly sacrificed some logical aspects for the sake of plot.
And yet, some people will insist that Fujitora certainly could break the cage if he wanted to (he just gave up of doing so because he wasn't in the right mood to do it,ya known). -
He should be one step ahead of Luffy because his ability is more versatile. He can create numerous strings and control them as he wishes. Combine Ordeal of String and Ordeal of Iron from Skypiea, and you get Dofla.
He should have been able to create various traps or barriers to slow Luffy or fool him with more clones. The way he used environment to get Luffy was pretty simplistic. There were no complex maneuvers. Just stabs of big white string spikes. Mind you, he didn't even try to get close to attack while Luffy was avoiding Whites. Lazy.
Doubt this serves any purpose, because you'll just find another way to justify it.
You seem to be missing the point of gear 4 it does not matter how versatile his power is .
Luffy is just straight up stronger , faster and more powerful in gear 4 .
Don could have done a million things and Oda could have luffy avoid or dodge or overpower them just the same.
Like he did in chapter 785 or this chapter .
Oda even made it a point to show that don can't even physical hurt luffy with his attack when he in gear 4.I can understand you don't like it but it is what it is and what Oda show each time luffy went into gear 4.
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After seeing Law how he can put his own arm again, i thought, okay, Jozu can do the same… but no. Oda discriminate characters!
It wasn't Law though
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Heh…you nailed it.Oda clearly sacrificed some logical aspects for the sake of plot.
And yet, some people will insist that Fujitora certainly could break the cage if he wanted to (he just gave up of doing so because he wasn't in the right mood to do it,ya known).Because Issho can break the cage. Issho had an agenda and we know this the moment he told Dofla that he was coming for his head.
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i agree that dofla was supposed to be smarter in combat, he mainly seemed to wait for luffy to attack and his moves were not up to what we had seen before. he never had the upper hand on luffy, while he did the opposite against law.
imho oda made the fight a bit easy from a strategic point of view.
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Because Issho can break the cage. Issho had an agenda and we know this the moment he told Dofla that he was coming for his head.
If that were the case, I would appreciate some "Oh, please" moment later on when (and if) Fuji comes across Doffy once again, where the later tries another of his tricks only to get bashed. It would redeem the admiral at least a little bit to show that he truly could have acted on his own.
Failing that, I must unfortunately admit that he is just as powerless as bloody Rebecca…:getlost:
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So what do you guys think, will we see the first new world bounty increase for at least Luffy, or will the world government try to cover up every last bit of what happened at Dressrosa?
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It wasn't Law though
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Because Issho can break the cage. Issho had an agenda and we know this the moment he told Dofla that he was coming for his head.
Wow! Of course! It all makes perfect sense now!
Issho definitely must have been thinking something like:"Hmmm…I certainly could beat this mad sadistic guy and stop this whole cage thing if I wanted... but you known what?Instead I'll just let him onslaught an entire town while I sit down and watch like any admiral in his right mind would do.Or Better yet! I'll merely "help" these fools to push this birdcage thing just a tiny little bit instead of simply destroying it and saving everybody's asses!Yeah! After all,I must follow my agenda strictly as I planned,which means:let Donquixote go berserk and kill as many people as he pleases and ONLY AFTER that,break the cage and come for his head."
Absolutely brilliant. -
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55 chapters ago. This scene was 55 chapters ago. And it's Oda telling us "Hey guys! Fujitora will NOT DO JACK SHIT in this arc. No matter what."
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This scene was Oda saying "Fujitora is going to let Luffy handle Doflamingo. He is NOT going to move to stop him."
If it makes sense or not, we'll have to wait for the full explanation after the arc is over and when the Reverie comes. If you like it, it's up to you. But you cannot say it wasn't stated or consistent. Oda was clear as daylight with Fuji, and he told us long ago that he wasn't going to do anything other than keeping civillians safe.
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Can old Fuji tank as many attacks as Doffy ?
I think Akainu could take it. Fuji doesn't strike me as a very tough guy…but I guess he could just dodge or block with gravity. -
! http://s15.postimg.org/byt3v4dsr/Fujitora_s_Intentions.png
55 chapters ago. This scene was 55 chapters ago. And it's Oda telling us "Hey guys! Fujitora will NOT DO JACK SHIT in this arc. No matter what."
This scene was Oda saying "Fujitora is going to let Luffy handle Doflamingo. He is NOT going to move to stop him."
If it makes sense or not, we'll have to wait for the full explanation after the arc is over and when the Reverie comes. If you like it, it's up to you. But you cannot say it wasn't stated or consistent. Oda was clear as daylight with Fuji, and he told us long ago that he wasn't going to do anything other than keeping civillians safe.
He was also seen to be the most caring for citizens of all Admirals and is letting 'die' with the Birdcage instead of whatever it is he is trying to do at this point. It doesn't make any sense, but if you want to justify it in your head no one is going to stop you.
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Can old Fuji tank as many attacks as Doffy ?
I think Akainu could take it. Fuji doesn't strike me as a very tough guy…but I guess he could just dodge or block with gravity.Depending how far his gravity ability goes, he could be near impervious to damage.
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He was also seen to be the most caring for citizens of all Admirals and is letting 'die' with the Birdcage instead of whatever it is he is trying to do at this point. It doesn't make any sense, but if you want to justify it in your head no one is going to stop you.
Now, let's not be hasty here. There are situations in which a good character can go against his personal morality code for the greater good or something similar.
Of course, Fuji is infuriating right now, but Oda seems to realize that, at least from character point of view. So it all depends on how good his explenation is when he stops being cryptic.
Especially since we can get angry call from Sakazuki any minute now.