I can't imagine when rebecca beat diamante
Chapter 772: Cabbage & Romeo
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Maybe when you will be parent like Oda it will be easier for you to get that its not about her being unable/unwilling to protect herself but about Kyros- his duty and guilt as he lost his wife already + Rebecca never was meant to be fighter. After Dressrosa though I see her as instructor of army teaching Soldiers some basics of swordfighting.
She was forced by Doflamingo to fight yet she stayed true to her beliefs and trained her style to be not lethal at all. Only moment when she tried to do harm to somebody was when she attacked Diamante once. She was still unable to do anything. What character arc you expected for girl that is nothing compared to Diamante or Kyros when it comes to fighting? Like she will man the fuck up and wreck somebody? Maybe there is plenty mangas like that but as Kyros came back there is no real reason for her to fight anymore after that fight for Dressrosa continues. Its not like its in her or rather its not who she is, she cant force it out of herself like that. Not every person is capable of fighting and hurting others even when time for it comes and now there is 0 need for that. She ran from Diamante as she has no chance even in blocking his attack or getting into any sort of fight with him. He almost one shotted her in colosseum just by using simple trick of standing on her feet to make it impossible for her to escape - thus he eliminated all her feats with on simple move - her agility and speed were gone instantly and he used heavy weapon so she cant hope to block it properly because she is so much weaker than him physically and in all other areas.
You have very weird expectations towards Rebbeca- you say that Kyros is overprotective when few moments before Rebbeca was almost finished off by Diamante same as Scarlet. So I have no idea out of where you are pulling it as faulty writing or Kyros being overprotective, would be cool if you could explain that.
Themes do not add up.
This is a Shonen manga. Which makes it even worse. You can't glorify pacifism, while having main arc antagonist be taken out by brute strength alone.
Lest we forget, this is a girl that has been months in the arena. Fighting to death.
Lest we forget that she was the only one in the entire last block to not be taken out by Hakuba, who, if the art is to be believed, is way faster then Diamante.
And finally, this a concieous choice by Oda to force into being incapable of any action and having to rely on Kyros. It is demeaning to her character. If we are talking about character arcs, hers is probably the worst one. From confident warrior who still managed to hold her own in the face of capable opponents, to panicked wreck that can only rely on her dad.
Which would be fine if Diamante had been impressive fighter up until this point. He hasn't been. His biggest achievements till now are, respectively, getting his sword broken effortlessly by Sabo and being able to keep up with fighter that posseses only one of his legs.
Bloody hell.
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Go down and help.
And no, I do not buy your "They will all die if they move an inch from their current location" argument.
More to the point, you do not get to keep your moral superiority while you are acting unethical.
Like they were doing before and they even sent words out to everyone to go to where King Riku is, so they don't need to go down to help since people already know where they are, also, going to that death ground will be endangering themselves for such pity reasons.
And you all act as if the bloody thing wasn't written and just appeared in thin air.
Rebecca is acting like that because Oda decided it. They are arguments for her to not be this way.
Rebecca is inferior to Diamante in such degree precisely because Oda decided it, again, even though making her capable was also in his power to do and would not contradict his story.
I see what has been done. And I consider it bad. That's all there is to it.
Oda write the manga, came up with her character design, flashback and future actions, so I'll agree with you; Oda did decided it.
What are those arguments you speak of?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Lest we forget, this is a girl that has been months in the arena. Fighting to death.
Lest we forget that she was the only one in the entire last block to not be taken out by Hakuba, who, if the art is to be believed, is way faster then Diamante.
I'm going to act as such. Is like you read Rebeca's character with a different mentality or something. She didn't win her fights in the Coliseum through force, but agility and maneuvers and it was hinted at her having Observation Haki and a speed good enough to win those matches.
Rebeca does NOT have the power to strike down an opponent like Diamante. Is what Kyros doing right? no, but he as a father have the RIGHTS to protect the daughter that he couldn't protect since he was turned into a toy from the man who murdered his wife.
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Themes do not add up.
This is a Shonen manga. Which makes it even worse. You can't glorify pacifism, while having main arc antagonist be taken out by brute strength alone.
Lest we forget, this is a girl that has been months in the arena. Fighting to death.
Lest we forget that she was the only one in the entire last block to not be taken out by Hakuba, who, if the art is to be believed, is way faster then Diamante.
And finally, this a concieous choice by Oda to force into being incapable of any action and having to rely on Kyros. It is demeaning to her character. If we are talking about character arcs, hers is probably the worst one. From confident warrior who still managed to hold her own in the face of capable opponents, to panicked wreck that can only rely on her dad.
Which would be fine if Diamante had been impressive fighter up until this point. He hasn't been. His biggest achievements till now are, respectively, getting his sword broken effortlessly by Sabo and being able to keep up with fighter that posseses only one of his legs.
Bloody hell.
Fight to death is when 2 sides fight to death, not only one or ya know - nobody.
Also if all gladiators would fight to death then they would have no gladiators at all in few weeks max.Beside.. Shonen manga theme doesnt dictate Oda how he has to approach his character developments, dont you think?
Its not demeaning to Rebeccas character to rely on Kyros during fight with Diamante but its demeaning to Rebecca that you would like to see. Oda is consistent and you expect from Rebecca something that in fact is not in character that Oda has builded up. She is no amazon warrior but woman that never wanted to fight anybody.
Diamante not being impressive fighter till now? Because he clearly outmatches Rebecca in every aspect of fighting and she knows she cant do anything against him as it was already shown 2 times. So from where your expectations come?You really use fact that Sabo was capable of breaking Diamantes sword to prove that Diamante isnt impressive enough for Rebbeca (as she was 2 times almost slaughtered by him without him even trying) not to run from him or rely on Kyros helping her stay alive? Errrmmmmmm…. I am not buying that from you, sorry.
"You cant glorify pacifism, while while having main arc antagonist be taken out by brute strength alone." ? Who does that ? One person, all of people involved? You expect to have main arc antagonist to be taken out by what exactly??? Doflamingos fall will be sucess of everybodys effort, exactly as Ideo said before falling..
- LoL at your "Bloody hell"
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You're right, I missed out on that on. Still, I know that Oda puts alot of thought into his work, that's why I admire One Piece so much. But somewhere in his thought process, he came up with "I'm gonna introduce a character called "undefeated woman". She'll constantly lose and cry. Her biggest strength is dodging and she actually hates fights." Nothing wrong with having a character like that! Not every character can be tough and a war-machine. But giving this character the title "undefeated" kinda gives me an impression of "this is my definition of how an undefeated woman is like". And it's not a flattering definition.
That's correct, but in a Shonen Manga, where there is no such thing as "ring out", fast reflexes won't win a fight. If you can't scratch your enemy, you'll have a hard time winning… you may count on wearing them out, but I doubt the audience would approve of such a character. She may be battle-ready in a way, but when it comes down to actually "throwing a punch", the essence of shonen, Rebecca can't do much - if anythign at all.
Look, I admit that Oda is sexist, and that sucks, but in the gladiator ring, there literally is such a thing as ring out, and fast reflexes will win a fight. As long as we can trust that there have never been crazy devil fruit or haki users (which seems reasonable; the entire DF tournament seemed like a really rare thing for the colosseum), they'd have to attack her to beat her, and she'd just jump over them and push them a little to get them to ring-out.
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This definitely not gonna happen. Your forgetting that there is someone else who's as strong as Sanji and even more dangerous than Sanji on that ship- Ceaser. Then when you add Brook, Nami and Chopper this screams that pekoms and Tamago won't be enough. Imagine if the likes of pekoms and Tamago with Fodders gives trouble to half of the crew plus CC that means the whole crew together are not even in any way damn close to fight a yonko.
Or They defeat the two Big Mama's pirates + a bunch of no names grunts while a certain reporter is looking from afar and ready to report to the world about it.
We've seen Yonkou's commanders before and not 'ALL' of the commanders are Jozu/Marco strong type of commander, so there's not reason for you guys to be over hyping the shit of those two just because one of them has a 300M bounty (Which does not mean shit anymore) and the other one is a black horse that is clearly underestimating the Strawhats since they first met back in Fishman Island. Sanji have had his fair share of bad luck on the New World, but all of it might be just for Oda to show this one moment that will leave us all in an 'Ahhhhhh' state.
I don't care how strong Sanji, Caesar, and the rest are, from a dramatic perspective a simple victory is incredibly unlikely. When Big Mom's ship first showed up, everybody freaked out. The Sunny was under fire from a giant ship that absolutely dwarfed it and everyone was in a panic. Oda is clearly putting them in a dangerous scenario. They're outmatched and in trouble because that's the way the author wants us to see it.
But what happens if they win? Well, Sanji and co could probably make it close. But we had this dramatic moment that ended in a huge cliffhanger and we won't see them for over 50 chapters! The best way to find out what happened is for one of the group, probably Nami, to tell us when they're reunited and cue the flashback. If the whole crew is back together, it removes all the tension from the fight. It also does nothing to move the plot forward. Big Mom is even more pissed off at the Strawhats, so what? She was already pissed 100 chapters ago and a bomb was accidentally going to go off in her face, so there was no reason for this big dramatic scene.
On the other hand, if something else happens, it increases the complexity and reinforces the chaos and danger of the New World. I was merely trying to come up with a scenario where someone could be captured without it reflecting poorly on them. It's just one possibility that's a lot more intriguing than a big fight.
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I'll believe it when I see it. Though I personally do not believe that that's message Oda was trying to convey with this scene.
Kyros's actions are being portrayed as well-intentioned but ultimately not the best. Rebecca is telling him to stop working so hard to protect her and he's just not listening.
@Darth:And finally, this a conscious choice by Oda to force into being incapable of any action and having to rely on Kyros. It is demeaning to her character. If we are talking about character arcs, hers is probably the worst one. From confident warrior who still managed to hold her own in the face of capable opponents, to panicked wreck that can only rely on her dad.
Do you really think Rebecca is going to sit out the whole fight? I don't like Rebecca and think her character has definitely been handled poorly, but there are a ton of cues that she's going to step up and help out. Running from Diamante and crying for her father was absolutely painful to read, and she's been an emotional wreck for much of the arc. However, it's blindingly obvious she's going to have some impact in defeating Diamante. The father-daughter dynamic between them is totally set up for this fight and their proper reunion afterwards. It's inconceivable that Rebecca will let her father continue to risk his life for her on his own.
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I expect he'll have to be more level-headed in order to beat Diamante.
I suspect so as well, he's been burning a little too hot since the moment he became human again. Diamante will probably try and take advantage of that.
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I don't care how strong Sanji, Caesar, and the rest are, from a dramatic perspective a simple victory is incredibly unlikely. When Big Mom's ship first showed up, everybody freaked out. The Sunny was under fire from a giant ship that absolutely dwarfed it and everyone was in a panic. Oda is clearly putting them in a dangerous scenario. They're outmatched and in trouble because that's the way the author wants us to see it.
Nobody is saying that they will have a simple victory, but a victory against them is reassuring. They freaked out at first, but after everything was set and done, they all came to one conclusion and it was to meet at Zou.
The Strawhats have always being outmatched, they have always being the underdogs and they always pull through it, so there no reason for us to believe that this is any different.
But what happens if they win? Well, Sanji and co could probably make it close. But we had this dramatic moment that ended in a huge cliffhanger and we won't see them for over 50 chapters! The best way to find out what happened is for one of the group, probably Nami, to tell us when they're reunited and cue the flashback. If the whole crew is back together, it removes all the tension from the fight. It also does nothing to move the plot forward. Big Mom is even more pissed off at the Strawhats, so what? She was already pissed 100 chapters ago and a bomb was accidentally going to go off in her face, so there was no reason for this big dramatic scene.
It may seems like it removes drama but in fact it does not (At least from my point of view), we're all caught up on Dressrosa right now and have accepted that we won't see those guys till the arc is done, so as soon as the arc is done you will see people dying to know whats's going on with the other side.
I keep saying this but the Strawhats need to be acknowledge as a threat and this is what those situations will accomplish for them, right now they're nothing but a bunch of confident brats (Chinjao said it), also she's pissed at them but you can clearly see that she does not give a crap about them right now since the first thing Tamago said was lets sink the ship and pick Caesar up, If she was really pissed at them, she would have told Tamago and Pekom to destroy them right in there.
On the other hand, if something else happens, it increases the complexity and reinforces the chaos and danger of the New World. I was merely trying to come up with a scenario where someone could be captured without it reflecting poorly on them. It's just one possibility that's a lot more intriguing than a big fight.
It will reflect poorly on them If Sanji gets capture, it doesn't matter what scenario do you us, this will only prove that they're no where near to take down a Yonkou since 4 of them cannot take down one seemingly commander and a 300M combatant (2 Errand boys).
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Its not demeaning to Rebeccas character to rely on Kyros during fight with Diamante but its demeaning to Rebecca that you would like to see. Oda is consistent and you expect from Rebecca something that in fact is not in character that Oda has builded up. She is no amazon warrior but woman that never wanted to fight anybody.
Interesting debate. Altogether I completely get Kyros' attitude and do not mind it, but still I gotta agree with Darth that the Rebecca we're seeing now isn't quite the same caliber of woman as the brave gladiator who stepped into the hateful arena with her head held high and saw through Hakuba's moves. Admittedly she's shocked from facing the murderer of her mum and she isn't a warrior at heart, so her not attacking Diamante is understandable. But that she looks barely able to dodge his incoming sword comes as a disappointment after we were repeatedly told that defense was her forte all along. I hope in the rest of the fight she will her spirits together and be shown in a better light.
Do you really think Rebecca is going to sit out the whole fight? I don't like Rebecca and think her character has definitely been handled poorly, but there are a ton of cues that she's going to step up and help out. Running from Diamante and crying for her father was absolutely painful to read, and she's been an emotional wreck for much of the arc. However, it's blindingly obvious she's going to have some impact in defeating Diamante. The father-daughter dynamic between them is totally set up for this fight and their proper reunion afterwards. It's inconceivable that Rebecca will let her father continue to risk his life for her on his own.
I'm crossing my fingers on this one. It'll be a huge disappointment if she ends up as just another to be rescued-crybaby princess.
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You're right, I missed out on that on. Still, I know that Oda puts alot of thought into his work, that's why I admire One Piece so much. But somewhere in his thought process, he came up with "I'm gonna introduce a character called "undefeated woman". She'll constantly lose and cry. Her biggest strength is dodging and she actually hates fights." Nothing wrong with having a character like that! Not every character can be tough and a war-machine. But giving this character the title "undefeated" kinda gives me an impression of "this is my definition of how an undefeated woman is like". And it's not a flattering definition.
That's correct, but in a Shonen Manga, where there is no such thing as "ring out", fast reflexes won't win a fight. If you can't scratch your enemy, you'll have a hard time winning… you may count on wearing them out, but I doubt the audience would approve of such a character. She may be battle-ready in a way, but when it comes down to actually "throwing a punch", the essence of shonen, Rebecca can't do much - if anythign at all.
Suppose Rebecca was a man instead would you think the same thing?
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I can agree with Darth that Rebecca's character development has been a huge mess. I would also point out that it is partly because she is a character in a shounen manga that her development has been so poor.
1.) She is a supporting character in a story with literally hundreds of supporting characters. If One Piece were directed at the same audience as, say, The Ravages of Time, then her shoddy character development would certainly speak poorly of the author's ability to acknowledge his audience's attention span. But, since One Piece is a shounen manga, published in a weekly anthology targeted at young boys, Oda's core audience is assumed to be young boys.
2.) One Piece is, as stated before, a story targeted at young boys. Any development of a female character that doesn't involve her breast size or relationship to the main character can be assumed to be so much fluff that will go right over the core demographic's collective heads. While I might not make these assumptions myself, the marketing department at Shueisha (the publisher of Shounen Jump, and thus, of One Piece) probably does. It just saves time, really. It might also partly explain why they are so heavily dependent on one or two high-grossing titles for nearly all of their sales; they don't diversify well.
I suppose this is a case of saying 'don't hate the player, hate the game', but since I care enough about One Piece to have been reading it for nearly ten years, I won't let the player (Oda) off scot-free. He dropped the ball on Rebecca's character development; let's hope he picks it back up before the next arc.
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Nobody is saying that they will have a simple victory, but a victory against them is reassuring. They freaked out at first, but after everything was set and done, they all came to one conclusion and it was to meet at Zou.
The Strawhats have always being outmatched, they have always being the underdogs and they always pull through it, so there no reason for us to believe that this is any different.
Perhaps I should clarify. When I say simple victory I mean a clean victory over Big Mom's ship without any additional complicating factors. I don't mean an easy victory, though I don't want that either.
It may seems like it removes drama but in fact it does not (At least from my point of view), we're all caught up on Dressrosa right now and have accepted that we won't see those guys till the arc is done, so as soon as the arc is done you will see people dying to know whats's going on with the other side.
I keep saying this but the Strawhats need to be acknowledge as a threat and this is what those situations will accomplish for them, right now they're nothing but a bunch of confident brats (Chinjao said it), also she's pissed at them but you can clearly see that she does not give a crap about them right now since the first thing Tamago said was lets sink the ship and pick Caesar up, If she was really pissed at them, she would have told Tamago and Pekoms to destroy them right in there.
And I'll be dying to know what happened along with everyone else. However, in my opinion it's a lot more interesting if we see a shocking result and then how it happened than a relieving one. It's the difference between "omg what happened?" and "glad you're okay, how'd it go?" If we see the result on Zou first, as I think we will, it preserves the suspense of the scene if they quite clearly barely escaped or something similar.
It will reflect poorly on them If Sanji gets capture, it doesn't matter what scenario do you us, this will only prove that they're no where near to take down a Yonkou since 4 of them cannot take down one seemingly commander and a 300M combatant (2 Errand boys).
You're probably undervaluing Pekoms and Tamago here. Big Mom seems to have very little respect for her crew so treating them like errand boys isn't indicative of their position. Hell, we don't even know if Yonkou commander is a standard position in most Yonkou crews! Whitebeard had them and Blackbeard based his structure off of him, but Shanks doesn't appear to have the same organizational structure and Roger didn't either.
Most people agree it will take the combined efforts of an alliance or two to take down the first Yonkou anyway. Struggling early on in a disadvantageous position is to be expected.
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@_Meh_:
I can agree with Darth that Rebecca's character development has been a huge mess. I would also point out that it is partly because she is a character in a shounen manga that her development has been so poor.
1.) She is a supporting character in a story with literally hundreds of supporting characters. If One Piece were directed at the same audience as, say, The Ravages of Time, then her shoddy character development would certainly speak poorly of the author's ability to acknowledge his audience's attention span. But, since One Piece is a shounen manga, published in a weekly anthology targeted at young boys, Oda's core audience is assumed to be young boys.
2.) One Piece is, as stated before, a story targeted at young boys. Any development of a female character that doesn't involve her breast size or relationship to the main character can be assumed to be so much fluff that will go right over the core demographic's collective heads. While I might not make these assumptions myself, the marketing department at Shueisha (the publisher of Shounen Jump, and thus, of One Piece) probably does. It just saves time, really. It might also partly explain why they are so heavily dependent on one or two high-grossing titles for nearly all of their sales; they don't diversify well.
I suppose this is a case of saying 'don't hate the player, hate the game', but since I care enough about One Piece to have been reading it for nearly ten years, I won't let the player (Oda) off scot-free. He dropped the ball on Rebecca's character development; let's hope he picks it back up before the next arc.
I would say those are both fairly weak excuses. One Piece has always had these constraints but Oda's written interesting female characters in the past, it's certainly something he's capable of. Meanwhile Rebecca has had one of the messiest character arcs in the entire series.
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This discussion is over.
She sucks, and she will become just like Vivi when this arc is done. -
Themes do not add up.
This is a Shonen manga. Which makes it even worse. You can't glorify pacifism, while having main arc antagonist be taken out by brute strength alone.
Lest we forget, this is a girl that has been months in the arena. Fighting to death.
Lest we forget that she was the only one in the entire last block to not be taken out by Hakuba, who, if the art is to be believed, is way faster then Diamante.
And finally, this a concieous choice by Oda to force into being incapable of any action and having to rely on Kyros. It is demeaning to her character. If we are talking about character arcs, hers is probably the worst one. From confident warrior who still managed to hold her own in the face of capable opponents, to panicked wreck that can only rely on her dad.
Which would be fine if Diamante had been impressive fighter up until this point. He hasn't been. His biggest achievements till now are, respectively, getting his sword broken effortlessly by Sabo and being able to keep up with fighter that posseses only one of his legs.
Bloody hell.
Well, I'm not going to argue with your main point of bad character build-up for Rebecca as I tend to agree somewhat. However, for this point you mix up two completely seperate things, the readers point of view and the characters point of view. We readers have indeed only seen Diamante get owned by Sabo and matched by one-legged Kyros. He might therefore not really seem the most impressive fighter to us, however, you must remember this is not how Rebecca sees things. All of her life (as a fighter) she has spent in the colloseum, the very colloseum of which Diamante is the undisputed champion. It is very likely Rebecca has watched Diamante obtain countless victories over the past years and she probably has never in her life seen a better fighter than him. It would therefore not be completely illogical for Rebecca to be terrified of Diamante. So, in her view Diamante is by any means a very impressive fighter.
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Do you really think Rebecca is going to sit out the whole fight? I don't like Rebecca and think her character has definitely been handled poorly, but there are a ton of cues that she's going to step up and help out. Running from Diamante and crying for her father was absolutely painful to read, and she's been an emotional wreck for much of the arc. However, it's blindingly obvious she's going to have some impact in defeating Diamante. The father-daughter dynamic between them is totally set up for this fight and their proper reunion afterwards. It's inconceivable that Rebecca will let her father continue to risk his life for her on his own.
It's late, but I will adress this one before I go to sleep.
Do I think that Rebecca is going to sit this one out? Honestly? I don't know.
If you'd asked in 2013, I've had full confidence in Oda back then. Now? I hope that what you say will turn out to be true. But then again, if you told me a year ago that Fujitora is going to sit the massacre of civilian population of Dressrosa out and not do anything at all about Flamingo, I would have laughed at you.
There are cases of out of character writing for main characters, problems with how the story is presented, incosistency of motives. All and all, this arc is a mess.
And then there is chapter 755, which I personaly consider to be the worst out of the post-timeskip stuff, and possibly entire series.
Add Oda's track record with women into account…
Kyros gloriously defeating Diamante, and Rebecca falling into his arms in tears, happy that she will never have to fight ever again, ever is a possibility I would not easily discard.
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I personally am not hong up on Rebecca charactor but i can see where other persons are coming from
1. Oda history with female characters, i don't know if i should say it is a fact that mosts believe he don't do well with female characters or whether persons believe he is a sexist. What i do believe is that these are two position persons judge Rebecca from. Once Oda introduce a female charactor in an arc as one of the antagonist of that arc persons will pay detail attention just waiting to see what they consider as bad potrayal of female characters. One of the worst thing that can ever happen no matter how strong that female charactor is, is to CRY.
2. My second point i think i would blaim it on Oda, we got a wonderful cliff hanger and a beatiful double spread with Rebecca facing off against Diamante in the flower field. I think most of us expectation was high, coming from the disappointment of her display against diamante in the arenna. Instaed what we got the next chapter was really dispointting, she crying while running from Diamante saying she don't want to fight anymore. I know that some will say she realize she could'nt beat him from the arenna so why face him just to get destroyed, i know i was defending her too. After thinking about it and reading others opinion i now think that the double spread and the running was'nt the issue but the way it was executed. If Oda had made Diamante and Rebecca clash, showing us visuals that suggest she is really out of her league also have her even having an internal dialogue that she is outclass then most could have accepted it better.
I think that those two points are two main reason why we keep having this discussion. Honestly i am not troubled so often by things like Rebecca character or most things that are discuss on a week bases example Fujitora, kyros protecting Rebecca i just realise that every manga have issues in each chapter. if you want to critize it in every details you will always find flaws, because there will always exist flaws in manga maybe evn in every single page. Even in life after and while things happen we see a thousand ways it could have been done better but the question is how would the result or the future change no one knows. Additionally most persons ideas veries from time to time in how they would handle a situation same with manga characters same thing that make us humans and prone to error same with manga characters and one of the very reason why this discussion keeps coming up. image if everything was perfect with every character. Not even life is perfect
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Look, I admit that Oda is sexist
That's such a bold claim to make, especially when you don't even know a thing about him. You're making this fallacious claim based on your own preconceived notions. Many of you are really confused as to what sexism even is.
This whole thing about his "track record with women" is opinionated. It's the individual reader who decides if a character is good or not.
It's not a fact or truth at all. It's a minority opinion really . -
This post is deleted!
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It's late, but I will adress this one before I go to sleep.
Do I think that Rebecca is going to sit this one out? Honestly? I don't know.
If you'd asked in 2013, I've had full confidence in Oda back then. Now? I hope that what you say will turn out to be true. But then again, if you told me a year ago that Fujitora is going to sit the massacre of civilian population of Dressrosa out and not do anything at all about Flamingo, I would have laughed at you.
There are cases of out of character writing for main characters, problems with how the story is presented, incosistency of motives. All and all, this arc is a mess.
And then there is chapter 755, which I personaly consider to be the worst out of the post-timeskip stuff, and possibly entire series.
Add Oda's track record with women into account…
Kyros gloriously defeating Diamante, and Rebecca falling into his arms in tears, happy that she will never have to fight ever again, ever is a possibility I would not easily discard.
So pessimistic! Cheer up, Darth, it's 2015 and that means the manga will likely change tack again and bring a whole new slew of disappointments to complain about. After all, against all odds we've completed yet another rotation about our sun and reached a completely arbitrary point in orbit. It's a time of reflection, to remember all the times people have disgusted us and let us down. If you're looking for a more vapid and commercial reason to celebrate, you won't find one!
Jesus Christ I hate New Years so much.
But hey, at the very least we'll probably exit Dressrosa and leave Rebecca and her problems behind for good. Still pretty confident she'll do something positive and impactful eventually.
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Themes do not add up.
This is a Shonen manga. Which makes it even worse. You can't glorify pacifism, while having main arc antagonist be taken out by brute strength alone.
Lest we forget, this is a girl that has been months in the arena. Fighting to death.
Lest we forget that she was the only one in the entire last block to not be taken out by Hakuba, who, if the art is to be believed, is way faster then Diamante.
And finally, this a concieous choice by Oda to force into being incapable of any action and having to rely on Kyros. It is demeaning to her character. If we are talking about character arcs, hers is probably the worst one. From confident warrior who still managed to hold her own in the face of capable opponents, to panicked wreck that can only rely on her dad.
Which would be fine if Diamante had been impressive fighter up until this point. He hasn't been. His biggest achievements till now are, respectively, getting his sword broken effortlessly by Sabo and being able to keep up with fighter that posseses only one of his legs.
Bloody hell.
I don't think Rebecca was shot at much in the colosium…
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@jabberwork
Again everyone has their own opinion. No way in hell will I believe that half of the Strawhats who has not been shown for 1 year now will end up needing help from other half of the crew in Dressrosa who have been getting all the panel time. According to you this is what you want to happen
Sanji n co gone for a year then Oda comes back to them turns out they need help or rescuing , then Oda will use Luffy and co the half crew that have had the focus on since Dressrosa arc will have more chapter time again to go rescue the other half which haven't had focus on for a year now. Sounds totally redicoulous to me.
So far anytime a crew member disappears for a long time when Oda finally shows him/her they do something epic.
Example: Franky, we didn't see for a long time in punk hazard and when we finally see him he takes down two Dofla crewmates. -
Perhaps I should clarify. When I say simple victory I mean a clean victory over Big Mom's ship without any additional complicating factors. I don't mean an easy victory, though I don't want that either.
So in short you want something to happen in between because you feel that THIS something will make it more thrilling…Gotcha
You're probably undervaluing Pekoms and Tamago here. Big Mom seems to have very little respect for her crew so treating them like errand boys isn't indicative of their position. Hell, we don't even know if Yonkou commander is a standard position in most Yonkou crews! Whitebeard had them and Blackbeard based his structure off of him, but Shanks doesn't appear to have the same organizational structure and Roger didn't either.
Not, I'm just taking things how they are. To me they look nothing more than stepping stone for the Strawhats right now (Those two). I might be the only one, but I feel like Oda will complicate things by creating another type of ranking order for the Yonkous when he can just have them just like Whitebeard/Blackbeard with Shanks being the exception as of now.
Most people agree it will take the combined efforts of an alliance or two to take down the first Yonkou anyway. Struggling early on in a disadvantageous position is to be expected.
Is to be expected against the Yonkou himself/herself and their top commanders. For some unknown reason Tamago and Pekom first reported to Bobbins, am I to think that Bobbins is higher up in the chain of command? No, but you get the point.
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Sanji and co are getting a huge bounty for whatever they have done or will do in the last past year of off-panel.
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Again everyone has their own opinion. No way in hell will I believe that half of the Strawhats who has not been shown for 1 year now will end up needing help from other half of the crew in Dressrosa who have been getting all the panel time. According to you this is what you want to happen
Sanji n co gone for a year then Oda comes back to them turns out they need help or rescuing , then Oda will use Luffy and co the half crew that have had the focus on since Dressrosa arc will have more chapter time again to go rescue the other half which haven't had focus on for a year now. Sounds totally redicoulous to me.
So far anytime a crew member disappears for a long time when Oda finally shows him/her they do something epic.
Example: Franky, we didn't see for a long time in punk hazard and when we finally see him he takes down two Dofla crewmates.I was trying to come up with a theoretical situation in which a Strawhat could be captured without looking weak. By the number of objections to it it's clear that wasn't successful, though I also suspect you didn't read it very carefully anyway.
I have full faith that Oda will find suitably awesome ways for the absent Strawhats to make up screentime, preferably without taking too much away from the ones on Dressrosa. You're free to have your own opinion too, but personally I don't believe that half the crew needs to be able to take on a Yonkou's ship in order to be strong. I also think it's unlikely (though possibble) that Strawhats will receive bounty raises for events we don't see in the present.
@Shadowgreed:So in short you want something to happen in between because you feel that THIS something will make it more thrilling…Gotcha
No need to make it sound so petty It's a little more than that, involving narrative structure and story progression, but I suppose that IS essentially my thinking.
Not, I'm just taking things how they are. To me they look nothing more than stepping stone for the Strawhats right now (Those two). I might be the only one, but I feel like Oda will complicate things by creating another type of ranking order for the Yonkous when he can just have them just like Whitebeard/Blackbeard with Shanks being the exception as of now.
Is to be expected against the Yonkou himself/herself and their top commanders. For some unknown reason Tamago and Pekom first reported to Bobbins, am I to think that Bobbins is higher up in the chain of command? No, but you get the point.
Every major group we've seen so far has had its own hierarchical system and that hasn't been too complicated. I see no reason why all the Yonkous need to have their crews structured in the same way, especially since their goals seem to be different.
I forgot they reported to Bobbin first. He and that three-eyed girl seem to me to be very high up in the chain of command, since they're the only ones we've seen so far who aren't terrified of Big Mom. I wouldn't be surprised if Bobbin was her second in command.
And for the record, that ship is so large and unique it could very well be Big Mom's flagship, in which case it's very likely someone stronger is aboard, maybe even Big Mom herself.
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Every major group we've seen so far has had its own hierarchical system and that hasn't been too complicated. I see no reason why all the Yonkous need to have their crews structured in the same way, especially since their goals seem to be different.
They have had their own structures.
- BW were established by pairs.
- WB - Whitebeard + 15 commanders or so and each one of the commanders had their own underlines
- DF - Dofla, 3 cards with a certain number of officer under them and 2000+ foot soldier under the officers
This is pretty much the same structure, all of them have commanders and those commanders have underlines, no reason to believe that Oda will change such simple structure.
I forgot they reported to Bobbin first. He and that three-eyed girl seem to me to be very high up in the chain of command, since they're the only ones we've seen so far who aren't terrified of Big Mom. I wouldn't be surprised if Bobbin was her second in command.
I would be surprise to see him being the second in command since I'm expecting a woman to fill that role.
And for the record, that ship is so large and unique it could very well be Big Mom's flagship, in which case it's very likely someone stronger is aboard, maybe even Big Mom herself.
We haven't seen her main ship. Whitebeard's child-ships looked exactly like the mother-ship, so no surprise on this one being so unique. Big Mama being there doesn't make sense either since that will mean that they went back and forward in a day and they had to look for candies and whatnot.
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Sanji and co are getting a huge bounty for whatever they have done or will do in the last past year of off-panel.
Dead pirates need no bountie
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Sanji and co are getting a huge bounty for whatever they have done or will do in the last past year of off-panel.
Well if they don't run away or are rescued, I don't think Sanji getting the New World treatment for a 3rd time in a row is going to earn him any more money, likewise to the others on the ship.
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They have had their own structures.
- BW were established by pairs.
- WB - Whitebeard + 15 commanders or so and each one of the commanders had their own underlines
- DF - Dofla, 3 cards with a certain number of officer under them and 2000+ foot soldier under the officers
This is pretty much the same structure, all of them have commanders and those commanders have underlines, no reason to believe that Oda will change such simple structure.
Yeah, there's always underlings that are either individually portioned out or in a pool everyone can command. I thought we were talking about the ranking of named characters, like if Pekoms and Tamago are merely less important than Bobbin or whether they're actually under his command.
BW had pairs that were ranked by strength, so that Mr. 3 had authority over Mr. 5 and Ms. Valentine's Day.
Whitebeard had many divisions that were nominally equal in rank but the top few appeared by be stronger and garner more respect.
Doflamingo has three head executives with the other execs reporting to their respective bosses.They're all different. Even Enel and CP9 had their own organizational structures.
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It's late, but I will adress this one before I go to sleep.
Do I think that Rebecca is going to sit this one out? Honestly? I don't know.
If you'd asked in 2013, I've had full confidence in Oda back then. Now? I hope that what you say will turn out to be true. But then again, if you told me a year ago that Fujitora is going to sit the massacre of civilian population of Dressrosa out and not do anything at all about Flamingo, I would have laughed at you.
There are cases of out of character writing for main characters, problems with how the story is presented, incosistency of motives. All and all, this arc is a mess.
And then there is chapter 755, which I personaly consider to be the worst out of the post-timeskip stuff, and possibly entire series.
Add Oda's track record with women into account…
Kyros gloriously defeating Diamante, and Rebecca falling into his arms in tears, happy that she will never have to fight ever again, ever is a possibility I would not easily discard.
High chances are that she will get Ussop treatment so I dont know why you are so doom and gloom over this. By Ussop treatment I mean aiding Kyros/ being able to protect herself- for few moments that will give them a win. Its not like she will jump into fight but if she at least will defeat herself and Kyros will trust her with it Diamante should be left with big opening.
When Diamante takes of his cape made out of steel that should weight A LOT even for him he might start blitzing. Also you cant tell if Rebecca would be incapable of defending herself from that Viper slash attack if Kyros would not step in. She managed to defend herself from Hakuba- something that even hella strong 16 Dellinger was not capable of.
Be so kind and dont start a rant when we didnt seen yet whole fight, rant based on prediction might end up huge waste of time.
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So pessimistic! Cheer up, Darth, it's 2015 and that means the manga will likely change tack again and bring a whole new slew of disappointments to complain about. After all, against all odds we've completed yet another rotation about our sun and reached a completely arbitrary point in orbit. It's a time of reflection, to remember all the times people have disgusted us and let us down. If you're looking for a more vapid and commercial reason to celebrate, you won't find one!
Jesus Christ I hate New Years so much.
But hey, at the very least we'll probably exit Dressrosa and leave Rebecca and her problems behind for good. Still pretty confident she'll do something positive and impactful eventually.
It wasn't arbitrary at first, New Years was based around the Solstice at first I think, then the calendar got messed up with Moon months, and the year was re-tweaked and moved off path.
But I do want Dressrosa to end soon.
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She managed to defend herself from Hakuba- something that even hella strong 16 Dellinger was not capable of.
"Defend" is giving her a bit too much credit. She managed to dodge enough that she received a glancing blow instead of a full one, and even that briefly stunned her.
She also benefits from being very aware of her weakness and not overconfident like Dellinger.
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It wasn't arbitrary at first, New Years was based around the Solstice at first I think, then the calendar got messed up with Moon months, and the year was re-tweaked and moved off path.
But I do want Dressrosa to end soon.
Yeah, based on the solstice just like Christmas, I think, but between cultural shifts and calendar changes it's basically arbitrary now. I would much prefer if we celebrated on December 21st and if people made less of a big deal about it.
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Well if they don't run away or are rescued, I don't think Sanji getting the New World treatment for a 3rd time in a row is going to earn him any more money, likewise to the others on the ship.
Nah, Sanji is one of the monster trio, we won't get it 3 times in row, when others get to shine and beat strong enemies from the new world.
At least Pekoms is going down. Tamago should be the one to fight Sanji since he is from the long leg tribe.
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And for the record, that ship is so large and unique it could very well be Big Mom's flagship, in which case it's very likely someone stronger is aboard, maybe even Big Mom herself.
WB had 4 ships that looked exactly like his main ship so that argument don't work.
And the fact that you think Big mom could be on that ship says it all that you don't know what you're talking about, you just want things to work in your favor and likings. From all the informations and timeline given to us by Oda- Tamago said it will take 3 days from fishman island to reach wholecake island where big mom is at and Strawhats left Fishman island the same day as Tamago & Pekoms but the timeline from fishman to punk hazard to Dressrosa has only been 2 days.
So for big mom to be on that ship atleast 6 or 7 days would've passed but still that would mean she will miss her Tea-Party which is in 4 or 5 days (I forgotten).
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Dead pirates need no bountie
But dead pirates still have bounty. Kizaru said "A pirate sin doesn't just disappear".
I bet Roger would've still gotten a bounty increase for his dead body but luckily he turned himself in.
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Sanji's team will decide whether to use the "coup de burst" or a strong attack to sink big mom's ship, that uses the same amount of cola.
Hopefully the sunny have the same firepower shown in the movie Z.
But I'll rather have team Sanji fight big Mom's crew.CC vs. Pekoms
Sanji vs. Tamago
Nami, Brook, Chopper vs. Tamago's crew. -
Well if they don't run away or are rescued, I don't think Sanji getting the New World treatment for a 3rd time in a row is going to earn him any more money, likewise to the others on the ship.
First of all
Oda showed us that they weren't planning to runaway but rather counterattack so Oda is sure as hell knows everyone is expecting a counterattack from the sunny team.2nd-
Vergo was required to beat smoker and hype up Law so Oda had to make Sanji and Vergo fight not be a serious one. Throughout that short clash this what happened
Sanji–-----------------------------> Vergo
-why you hit a girl? –----------------- -Who the hell are you?
-Tough body Huh? -------------------- - Mind your own business!
-my captain don't like your kind. ------- - Don't get in my way
-Gas, have to escape. ------------------ - Shit! Have to go after Law3rd thing- Doflamingo.
He would've treated anyone in Dressrosa the same way he treated Sanji(exceptions of Fuji, Sabo). Seriously Luffy red-hawk offguard didn't do shit to him.and finally Tamago and Pekoms
This two has no plot or anything that's protecting them from getting ass beat from half the crew. The fact that Oda showed us Pekoms bounty and Devilfruit so fast for a new guy from a yonko only means two things- hype Big mom, and hype who will take him down. -
We only have a hint regarding Pekoms' devil fruit. Bounty + mysterious devil fruit. It's not unlike Doffy's first appearance.
Calling it now, Pekoms will be defeated in 500 chapters. -
Sanji's team will decide whether to use the "coup de burst" or a strong attack to sink big mom's ship, that uses the same amount of cola.
Hopefully the sunny have the same firepower shown in the movie Z.
But I'll rather have team Sanji fight big Mom's crew.Didn't Franky say "Coup de Burst" uses 3 barrels of soda and after each Coup de burst they have to refill the barrels again to use it again? And didn't the sunny just use coup de burst to get away from Fujitora and Doflamigo from Green pit? So I don't think coup de burst is an option except if my information is wrong.
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We only have a hint regarding Pekoms' devil fruit. Bounty + mysterious devil fruit. It's not unlike Doffy's first appearance.
Calling it now, Pekoms will be defeated in 500 chapters.It's obvious he has a tortoise Zoan fruit. It's not like a paramecia fruit where people have to guess. Someone can be beaten twice you know. Franky beat Buffalo & Baby 5 for hype and yet they got beaten again in Dressroa.
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It's obvious he has a tortoise Zoan fruit. It's not like a paramecia fruit where people have to guess. Someone can be beaten twice you know. Franky beat Buffalo & Baby 5 for hype and yet they got beaten again in Dressroa.
Muhahahaha! We never know, maybe he ate the hermit crab fruit. And he is currently living in a turtle shell.
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WB had 4 ships that looked exactly like his main ship so that argument don't work.
And the fact that you think Big mom could be on that ship says it all that you don't know what you're talking about, you just want things to work in your favor and likings. From all the informations and timeline given to us by Oda- Tamago said it will take 3 days from fishman island to reach wholecake island where big mom is at and Strawhats left Fishman island the same day as Tamago & Pekoms but the timeline from fishman to punk hazard to Dressrosa has only been 2 days.
So for big mom to be on that ship atleast 6 or 7 days would've passed but still that would mean she will miss her Tea-Party which is in 4 or 5 days (I forgotten)
It's called laying out possibilities. Notice the parts where I said could be and maybe, because I'm not acting like I know everything. Big Mom's probably not on the ship, but it's not impossible. She could have traveled and met them halfway. She's either on board or they're talking to her via den den mushi. Oda left the possibility open.
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Didn't Franky say "Coup de Burst" uses 3 barrels of soda and after each Coup de burst they have to refill the barrels again to use it again? And didn't the sunny just use coup de burst to get away from Fujitora and Doflamigo from Green pit? So I don't think coup de burst is an option except if my information is wrong.
Or they have more barrels of soda on board. Simple solution.
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Muhahahaha! We never know, maybe he ate the hermit crab fruit. And he is currently living in a turtle shell.
Or maybe he ate the lion turtle fruit and is actually Bepo's cousin! They have similar eyes, you know.
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It's called laying out possibilities. Notice the parts where I said could be and maybe, because I'm not acting like I know everything. Big Mom's probably not on the ship, but it's not impossible. She could have traveled and met them halfway. She's either on board or they're talking to her via den den mushi. Oda left the possibility open.
Yeah I will sure as hell act like I know it all with all the information given to us by Oda. And I ain't scared of being wrong. In real life in other to be successful you can't be bothered with "maybe" "could be" or "might be", either you go in head strong with "I'm sure as hell" or you don't. You succeed you succeed, you fail you fail pfft you just move on.
There is no reason for Big mom to be there or be on her way to Dressrosa that will only mean she will miss her tea party which Oda has been hyping up now or Big mom is faster than We thought.
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Or they have more barrels of soda on board. Simple solution.
there is no maybe but yes they do have extra the 3 barrels for shooting Gaon cannon or 3 extra doesn't matter, Strawhats can't keep on coup de bursting out of every situation or everyone they meet in New world.
Or maybe he ate the lion turtle fruit and is actually Bepo's cousin! They have similar eyes, you know.
Or he only ate the tortoise fruit.
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Yeah I will sure as hell act like I know it all with all the information given to us by Oda. And I ain't scared of being wrong. In real life in other to be successful you can't be bothered with "maybe" "could be" or "might be", either you go in head strong with "I'm sure as hell" or you don't. You succeed you succeed, you fail you fail pfft you just move on.
There is no reason for Big mom to be there or be on her way to Dressrosa that will only mean she will miss her tea party which Oda has been hyping up now or Big mom is faster than We thought.
Maybe it's because it's 5:30 in the morning where I am, but that reasoning is so flawed I don't even know how to respond. Baseless bravado is one of the things I hate most in the world. You're going to fail a lot more than you succeed if you bluster along and refuse to consider other possibilities.
We don't know the ship's destination, its occupants, or its mission. We don't even know how far from Dressrosa they are. There are enough unknowns that it makes sense to propose and evaluate different scenarios, and that's what I'm doing. If you can't try to approach the situation from different angles, that's your problem.
And now I'm going to I sleep.
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Sanji and co are getting a huge bounty for whatever they have done or will do in the last past year of off-panel.
Honestly, it just looks like a potential development for the next arc.
If Oda just wanted Sanji and Co. to have gone to Zou, he would have done it without involving Big Mom's crew as an offscreen obstacle in all this. There are several things that could happen, but that ship needs to remain intact so the bomb can be delivered.
Also, there's nothing indicating actual fights. Tamago is planning on having the Thousand Sunny blasted anyway.
So if I were to predict something, it would be that Sanji and Co. will end up somewhere else that's not Zou. Big Mom's crew will probably lead the Straw Hats to an alternate path, but won't be able to sink them.
Kid also might get involved in all this somehow. He's been getting some weird attention lately by getting scenes in the middle of an ongoing arc, which is unusual.
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Didn't Franky say "Coup de Burst" uses 3 barrels of soda and after each Coup de burst they have to refill the barrels again to use it again? And didn't the sunny just use coup de burst to get away from Fujitora and Doflamigo from Green pit? So I don't think coup de burst is an option except if my information is wrong.
Well the energy room uses up to 3 barrels of cola. I'm not sure how many barrels of cola they have on the ship, but on fishman island, they used "coup de burst" and the "Gaon cannon", which was a total of 8 barrels.
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Honestly, it just looks like a potential development for the next arc.
If Oda just wanted Sanji and Co. to have gone to Zou, he would have done it without involving Big Mom's crew as an offscreen obstacle in all this. There are several things that could happen, but that ship needs to remain intact so the bomb can be delivered.
Also, there's nothing indicating actual fights. Tamago is planning on having the Thousand Sunny blasted anyway.
So if I were to predict something, it would be that Sanji and Co. will end up somewhere else that's not Zou. Big Mom's crew will probably lead the Straw Hats to an alternate path, but won't be able to sink them.
Kid also might get involved in all this somehow. He's been getting some weird attention lately by getting scenes in the middle of an ongoing arc, which is unusual.
Kidd with his alliance is going after Big Mom. It would be most logical in my opinion. Even page with Law cutting PH and Vergo shown Big Mom next to Kidd alliance captains, for me its clear. It would nicely fit with Kidd sinking her 2 ships to weaken her(Tamago even said they have need of money so its not like those ships are so easy to replace like its nothing).
When Luffy with his allies of all kinds would go after Kaido or rather Kaido will very likely go after them we can also get to see other 3 Supernovas taking out Big Mom with some sacrifices along the way. Im all in for such scenario.
In Kidds alliance we have at least 4 Supernova "level" fighters same as in Luffys alliance - Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Law. If we add up allies of all of crews then its probably comparable force to go after Yonko crew. Of course with Luffy catching up to other Supernovas in number of allies in like few days in New World heh..
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This wait for the next chapter is killing me…
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Yeah, there's always underlings that are either individually portioned out or in a pool everyone can command. I thought we were talking about the ranking of named characters, like if Pekoms and Tamago are merely less important than Bobbin or whether they're actually under his command.
BW had pairs that were ranked by strength, so that Mr. 3 had authority over Mr. 5 and Ms. Valentine's Day.
Whitebeard had many divisions that were nominally equal in rank but the top few appeared by be stronger and garner more respect.
Doflamingo has three head executives with the other execs reporting to their respective bosses.They're all different. Even Enel and CP9 had their own organizational structures.
We were after I mentioned Tamago reporting to Bobbins first, but either way, they all have strong similarities between themselves. CP9 didn't even crossed my mind and Enel seems pretty much like Dofla Family with a small structure.
Enel + four priests + one dude (The one who fought Robin) + all the minions
Dofla + Three Cards + officers + All minions -
Maybe it's because it's 5:30 in the morning where I am, but that reasoning is so flawed I don't even know how to respond. Baseless bravado is one of the things I hate most in the world. You're going to fail a lot more than you succeed if you bluster along and refuse to consider other possibilities.
We don't know the ship's destination, its occupants, or its mission. We don't even know how far from Dressrosa they are. There are enough unknowns that it makes sense to propose and evaluate different scenarios, and that's what I'm doing. If you can't try to approach the situation from different angles, that's your problem.
And now I'm going to I sleep.
Yeah something's have possibilities but some don't and this is one of them.
And yeah like I said I don't mind failing. I don't live life with how successful I am but rather how happy I am.
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Honestly, it just looks like a potential development for the next arc.
If Oda just wanted Sanji and Co. to have gone to Zou, he would have done it without involving Big Mom's crew as an offscreen obstacle in all this. There are several things that could happen, but that ship needs to remain intact so the bomb can be delivered.
Also, there's nothing indicating actual fights. Tamago is planning on having the Thousand Sunny blasted anyway.
So if I were to predict something, it would be that Sanji and Co. will end up somewhere else that's not Zou. Big Mom's crew will probably lead the Straw Hats to an alternate path, but won't be able to sink them.
Kid also might get involved in all this somehow. He's been getting some weird attention lately by getting scenes in the middle of an ongoing arc, which is unusual.
We expect the sunny team to fire back atleast since that was the last thing they said. But yeah I kinda agree with you, they still need to deliver the bomb or the bomb was meant to be used for the occasion of Sunny team clash with them. The big mom ship could lead them into an island were everyone will clash on land.
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We expect the sunny team to fire back atleast since that was the last thing they said. But yeah I kinda agree with you, they still need to deliver the bomb or the bomb was meant to be used for the occasion of Sunny team clash with them. The big mom ship could lead them into an island were everyone will clash on land.
I didn't thought of the possibility of the bomb going Boom on Tamago's possession, but I agree with KC, having this battle on dry land seems fitting, but I personally wanna see some Naval shit going down; looking at you Orlumbus!