Yeah! What do you expect us to do? Directly shun and scold them for their actions?
#SkeletonGate
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If roosh v somehow gets prison time out of all this, it will almost have been worth it. Almost.
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Can you support your claim with a source?
I also have Skeleton loving sessions from some mods, but i can´t show all of my cards like this. Yugi would never approve.
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I´m not even going to start talking about the Pro-Skeleton mods around here. No wonder the other countries hate us. Ban me if you want.
Now that's just insulting! Personal opinions have nothing to do with modding decisions when it comes to a topic as serious as skeletons as long as everyone stays civil!
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turns out most of the Gawker advertiser astroturfing is being coordinated by a forum run by the Return of Kings guy, an openly misogynistic MRA site. So whether it's harassing women out of their homes or causing financial damage, literally all the direct action as a result of #SkeletonGate is being caused by the misogynistic hate squads. Guys, I don't think there is a substantive middle ground here
Lovely. Is there a source for this info? I've never heard of the "Return of the Kings" guy.
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I also have Skeleton loving sessions from some mods, but i can´t show all of my cards like this.
Clearly this has been photoshopped and is a false flag.
Yugi would never approve.
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Clearly this has been photoshopped and is a false flag.
How could you tell? Looks pretty convincing to me
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Lovely. Is there a source for this info? I've never heard of the "Return of the Kings" guy.
Guy named roosh v who runs an eponymous blog as well as a website called return of kings. Not directly linking to either because he generates clicks by being virally outrageous (I really wouldn't advise reading unless you doctor recently recommended you increase your blood pressure).
Just really sick misogynistic PUA/MRA shit that reads like bad satire and may very well be, but there are certainly enough degenerates out there who eat it up.The evidence is a bunch of threads on his forums where they're openly plotting and distributing contact info for advertisers to whom they're sending boycott requests.
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i linked Rok a few pages earlier actually. they wanted a GG correspondent because they think games are dumb but want in on the movement because they share a common enemy (feminism obv)
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Oh. Bleargh. Hopefully a more mainstream website catches on.
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Oh. Bleargh. Hopefully a more mainstream website catches on.
?
It made the front page of the New York Times in a negative light, among a dozen other mainstream sites
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Rok did? Where/when was that?
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Rok did? Where/when was that?
Tabs was probably talking about GamerGate as a whole and how most news outlets tend to put it in a negative light.
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^Yeah that's what I meant. It's pretty obvious just by looking at the biggest names in the movement that they aren't the most ethics conscious people
stuff
just a curiosity, I noticed your avatar is from Gunnerkrigg. You know that comic is super progressive, right? And by progressive I mean feminist
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Gotta fill the page's skeleton quota.
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http://www.bogleech.com/courage/courage-schwick11.jpg
Gotta fill the page's skeleton quota.
edit: im dying
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Koopa skeletons gotta represent
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words can't express how sad I am that there isn't a skeletongate shitstorm actually going on, yet how glad I am to see so many spooky skeletons lining these pages regardless.
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words can't express how sad I am that there isn't a skeletongate shitstorm actually going on, yet how glad I am to see so many spooky skeletons lining these pages regardless.
everybody knows games are just temporary but skeletons are e̬͡t̵̟̪͓̲͍͓ȩ̜̜r̶͕͇n̳̞̞͔͚ͅa̧̝͈͔ͅl̷̗̘̮͎̠̟
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@Purple:
But what does this mean about "journalism ethics"?
Less money -> more pressure to make a new ethics policy and actually act on it.
If you mean the last one, it's just them punching themselves in the face and giving companies more reason not to sponsor them.
GamerGate shits on Zoe Quinn's cornflakes, and then Zoe Quinn shits on GamerGate's cornflakes? What information does that even provide? Am I supposed to go, "Oh! Zoe did it? Well that justifies GamerGate entirely!"
So breaking the law's a-okay if you have enough media outlets supporting you? Gotcha.
It provides an address people can go to. And this is after Quinn got a court order for him not to talk about her AT ALL.
^Yeah that's what I meant. It's pretty obvious just by looking at the biggest names in the movement that they aren't the most ethics conscious people
The Escapist changed their ethics policy, and look! No one's going after them!
just a curiosity, I noticed your avatar is from Gunnerkrigg. You know that comic is super progressive, right? And by progressive I mean feminist
The avatar's actually my own homebrew. It's not from anything.
Gunnerkrigg's pretty rad. I've been forgetting to keep up with it, though. Thanks for reminding me!
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The thing that people seem to be missing is
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Still NOT Talking about GamerGate's issue with Social Issues in gaming or "Social Justice Warriors".
Ssssssstill not answering any of my questions I see.
I'm still curious as to what exactly is wrong with discussing non white male representation in gaming. Why that makes one a "Social Justice Warrior", and why that's a bad thing…. GamerGaters tend to seem to think that.... I keep quoting your posts so you get notifications about it.... notice you keep failing to respond.
It's because you realize the answer DOES expose GamerGate's inherently misogynistic ways isn't it?
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So breaking the law's a-okay if you have enough media outlets supporting you? Gotcha.
It provides an address people can go to. And this is after Quinn got a court order for him not to talk about her AT ALL.
At what point did I say that what she did was okay? Where in that entire dialogue? Please. Pin point where I said that without deflecting into: "But other people are saying it's okay."
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Less money -> more pressure to make a new ethics policy and actually act on it.
If you mean the last one, it's just them punching themselves in the face and giving companies more reason not to sponsor them.
You seem to be missing the point of what constitutes "journalism ethics" when the companies have a very clear line against purported "bullying" rather than your grievances against things that you actually care about
Just means they need to clean up their tone and hey, if they care about those sponsors, they can get'em back
The Escapist changed their ethics policy, and look! No one's going after them!Does not correlate that anyone cared to go after them. IGN hasn't changed anything about their ethics policy and look! No one's going after them!
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Felicia Day: http://thisfeliciaday.tumblr.com/post/100700417809/the-only-thing-i-have-to-say-about-gamer-gate
Isn't this the post she got doxxed over? lolll what a movement
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The Escapist changed their ethics policy, and look! No one's going after them!
didnt they make a little blurb saying they were against corruption? Is that really all it takes??
The avatar's actually my own homebrew. It's not from anything.
Gunnerkrigg's pretty rad. I've been forgetting to keep up with it, though. Thanks for reminding me!
Dude it's literally shadow though lol
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Dude it's literally shadow though lol
Is this series any good because that looks adorable!
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@Purple:
Isn't this the post she got doxxed over? lolll what a movement
Yes.
http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/10/23/3583347/felicia-day-gamergate/ -
Is this series any good because that looks adorable!
I would say it's one of the best webcomics on the Internet imo! He's been updating it like clockwork 3x a week for like 8 or 9 years now :)
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Dude it's literally shadow though lol
Is it, though?
Maybe it's…
! A SKELETON
!–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Is this series any good because that looks adorable!
It's a long read, but really worth it. I wasn't a fan of some of the earlier chapters, but it's definitely worth sticking with and is one of the best reads out there webcomic-ways.
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! You've edited most of it out, so I've hid it
! @Insider2000:
! > At what point did I say that what she did was okay? Where in that entire dialogue? Please. Pin point where I said that without deflecting into: "But other people are saying it's okay."And let's clarify something: SkeletonGate is a movement. Everyone speaking against SkeletonGate's misdeeds are NOT a movement. They are the general public speaking against SkeletonGate So if Zoe Quinn decides to be an idiot and other morons root for her, their actions don't reflect on all of us because we are not a united movement. SkeletonGate is. But since SkeletonGate IS a movement, the horrible action of doxxers in SkeletonGate DO reflect the actions of the entire movement.
I know. It sucks. Try being a Feminist and being told that your opinion is shit because of a pile of "feminists" who say or do stupid shit. But that's how the game is played. The lot of SkeletonGate are in a game of politics, and despite being gamers, they're not very good at the game. Sadly, this is how politics work. It must suck being vilified, huh?
! FINALLY! SOMETHING I CAN AGREE WITH, to a degree!
Personally I am more forgiving of movement, based on the fact that most of movements/trends got their fair share amount of bad apples (so I judge them based on the core idea behind it, rather than the members they attract). The idea behind both GamerGate and feminism is fine, but both sides are so hateful of each other based on what they've seen their worst do/say, add to that generalisation and bias, and they'll never see past their misdeeds.
! Your main issues are with jerks who send death threats and other deeds that go hand-in-hand with that, not people who disagree with the current state of journalism when it comes to gaming(and people who might not like to handle everything with kids gloves, as far as I can tell).
I think people shouldn't judge movements based on members they attract, but rather the core idea the movement is about. Life would be a lot easier if people didn't generalize and held others accountable because of ever-present jerks.
somethingsomethingskeleton -
lol I editted out the extra stuff cause I feel like I need to learn to say LESS, but meh.
I get the fact that 'both sides have bad eggs'. The main issue is the bad egg comparison. A Feminist bad egg are usually extremists and are the worst people you'd find on Tumblr. Feminists who speak purely out of illogical thought who, by definition, shouldn't be considered Feminists in the first place. Anita is not a bad egg. She's a pot stirrer, but not a bad egg.
With SkeletonGate, we're not just dealing with doxxing. We're getting death threats, submissions of child pornography, entire Universities closing down Feminist speeches out of fear of gun threats, and other fun things. And I'm not saying that the 'argument against the corruption of video game journalism' is entirely invalidated by this dilemma. I'm saying that it doesn't paint a pretty picture and members pointing backwards saying, "OH BUT QUINN DID THIS!" "OH BUT THAT WAS A FALSE FLAG!", it does help anyone's case. I get that they want to cease corruption of video game journalism, but I don't even want to BEGIN to defend anyone who pulls those tactics.
And it doesn't help that the movement doesn't have many big voices of reason. I know you say 'we shouldn't generalize', but the movement hasn't exactly presented itself well enough for me to think otherwise.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I would say it's one of the best webcomics on the Internet imo! He's been updating it like clockwork 3x a week for like 8 or 9 years now :)
Is it, though?
It's a long read, but really worth it. I wasn't a fan of some of the earlier chapters, but it's definitely worth sticking with and is one of the best reads out there webcomic-ways.Sounds like fun.
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@Lef:
I think people shouldn't judge movements based on members they attract, but rather the core idea the movement is about. Life would be a lot easier if people didn't generalize and held others accountable because of ever-present jerks.
I really disagree here. You can agree with a movement's goals or intentions while still being completely against the movement. In the end, a movement's actual actions and the people who take them are the only tangible things about it. Actions speak louder than words, and words speak louder than abstract ideals. And the people who attach to a movement, especially if they take over its momentum, basically define it in the end.
Now I can understand the problem of needing to differentiate those different sub-groups, but really if there is that much internal strife then it sort of fails as a "movement" as it's not cohesive – and a few stray "bad apples" trying to piggy-back onto a cause would not entirely derail a more cohesive movement. But that's the eternal struggle when you need support but then people who are totally insane claim to support you but do things you don't agree with. But there's also a matter of degrees. SkeletonGate could easily splinter, if any of its purported followers actually cared, since it's new and totally out of control. But if you consider a concept as enormous as, say, feminism, a movement, then you can't really say "well the feminist movement sucks so I'm going to start a new one called something else." But in that sense I think feminism is more of a concept than something that should be labeled a movement, and there are so many different opinions on what it constitutes, to what severity, and by what approach that it becomes impossible to find real unity. It needs more granularity than that.
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I really think that vid that silence posted really explains the kind of movement GG is really well. It's decentralized without any real leaders or structure, and so when you have half the group saying the other half don't represent them, that's a fallacy because there's nothing to say what does and does not represent them. So by default everything is either in or out of the movement.
Feminism I think is more of a discussion or a form of criticism. Lots of people discussing gender roles and arguing about what's what. Some branches of it turn into movements when the need is strong enough (women voting) but mostly it's just deconstructing everyday social behavior through conversation.
Edit: It's funny that ppl think Anita is a pot stirrer though because her tropes videos aren't anything new as far as gender studies go. It's literally tropes discussed in regards to film and novels etc in media theory classes everywhere.
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In the end, there's a bottom line to everything. The bottom line for most of us is that, regardless about how you feel about it, women (literally all the literally who's) who have dissented against the movement because of its temperament have all been threatened with very direct threats or very inappropriate behavior such as the doxxing behavior for someone who proclaims herself a gamer and is otherwise a fan favorite of the very same crowd. There is no excuse that would be satisfactory, and simply stating that "well this happens so what do you want us to do?" alone is not going to meet most of our bare minima
Now, yes, there are bad apples in every organization, but generally the organization also is organized and mobilized to take action and respond to that as well as outline what they do stand for (in this case, gaming journalism ethics, whatever that may entail), and there is a concerted effort to pull out the sick roots. This does not occur here because the movement lacks both a clear mission other than "we'll put a lot of pressure on advertisers to show Gawker that we mean gaming journalism business!" and lacks a way to differentiate itself from its shadow is not a healthy campaign. In fact, because it does not meet its bottom line of meeting its own standards, it works counter to its own devices. If an organization or campaign cannot meet the bottom line of bystanders who would otherwise not give two shits about a pissing contest, then at best the change it seeks to bring about will only be fleeting, and at its worst, bystanders will condemn the movement and find it only a source of disgust and will stand against any progress of the movement
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This post is deleted!
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For the purposes of discussion, courtesy of Leigh Alexander:
List of ethical concerns in video games (partial)
A list of real ethical concerns in video games:
Video games are used to covertly advance the political agendas of arms manufacturers.
The aggressive marketing of capitalist war games is an inspiration to the U.S. military, which could take a page out of games marketing’s book in order to push unpopular ideas on the public.
Games like Littleloud’s Sweatshop or Molleindustria’s Phone Story are forbidden from Apple’s mobile storefronts, because they question (arguably deservedly) the ethics of manufacturing operations in impoverished areas.This site and this one are just a couple of the sites game developers can pay for reviews that make unproven promises to improve games’ positioning on mobile storefronts.
Developers who invest in design and publishing on mobile storefronts can expect to have free, unsanctioned clones of their games steal their revenue and come ahead of the original on charts with no action taken from the companies that own those storefronts.YouTubers have and continue to accept money to put games before their fervent consumer audiences and are not meaningfully obligated to disclose those relationships. They can then occupy leading curation spaces on a major storefront like Steam, Currently Steam curation’s discoverability algorithms mean the most powerful forces — many of whom, again, earn money from some game developers and not from others — only become more powerful.
The labor practices of the traditional game industry are exploitive and abhorrent. The industry’s historical production model involves staffing up, demanding extreme work weeks, and then letting go of the ‘excess’ talent after a product ships. Speaking out against these conditions is socially sanctioned, and developers who speak to the press at any time other than when marketing wants them to risk being fired.
An entire product and studio network — and by extension, a regional economy around games — can tank because of political posturing, and there is no accountability nor information provided to ameliorate the human collateral damage.
One of the U.S.’ most long-running and successful print game publications is owned by one of the world’s best-known game retailers, and few of the magazine’s consumers seem aware of what, if any impact that relationship might have.
In the name of objectivity, the consumer-facing games press largely releases material on a mutually-agreed upon set of terms and schedules dictated by game companies. It routinely accepts travel arrangements to tour studios and look at in-development games on financial obligation to those game companies and on those companies’ terms. Attempting to subvert this process by inserting personal opinion is viewed as ‘bias’.
In many of the above cases even when disclosure is obligated and made, disclosure does little to purify the overall effect on the climate and its perspectives.
Despite this, only the games press exists to question these ethical problems and attempt to inform the consumer. No one would care otherwise.Women in games are routinely abused, bullied and harassed while their professional community, and the industry’s largest companies, tend to remain silent. Interrogating this culture or attempting to advance this conversation can result in censure or punishment.
Not currently ethical concerns: Women’s sex lives, independent game developers’ Patreons, the personal perspectives of game critics, people having contentious or controversial opinions, who knows who in a close-knit industry (as if one could name an industry where people don’t know each other or work together).
Notice that, as I mentioned earlier, none of these legitimate ethical issues is being questioned by #SkeletonGate. The only place where action is being taken is in fighting the influence of feminist critique, ipso facto, the movement has shown itself to be not about gaming journalism, but anti-feminism.
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Food for thought from the man behind "Extra Credits." If we hypothetically detach harassment from Skeletongate and judge them by the consequences of the rest of their actions, has Skeletongate affected significant change or promoted their goals effectively?
What is the final play in all of this?
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Why are these topics so popular here?
Just wondering
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@Blagtastic88:
Food for thought from the man behind "Extra Credits." If we hypothetically detach harassment from Skeletongate and judge them by the consequences of the rest of their actions, has Skeletongate affected significant change or promoted their goals effectively?
This is pretty much my entire point. Yeah so they got rid of some ads but how does this bring about "journalism ethics"? That it holds them accountable? To what? "Ethics?"
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Positive Things Accomplished by #SpookyScary14YearOldGat:
- Making Phil Fish shut up forever
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@Purple:
This is pretty much my entire point. Yeah so they got rid of some ads but how does this bring about "journalism ethics"? That it holds them accountable? To what? "Ethics?"
I think this is a really unproductive line or argument though because when something is wrong, you do sometimes have to bang some pots and pans and just get something happening. Questioning whether in the end it will really have an impact, or really directly create honest accountability, is not really a good direction because that's not the fault of the people rightfully stirring things up. That would be kind of like saying "okay, we impeached a corrupt politician, but when his replacement apologizes and then continues to do the same thing, what have you REALLY achieved?" It's just not a good approach.
Not that I'm saying that any of this SkeletonGate stuff is valid in any way.
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I guess it's a bit late in the discussion for context but here's a good study I found on the nature of online harassment: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/
Data was collected in June 2014 so it pre-dates this whole mess by a few months.
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@Lef:
! You've edited most of it out, so I've hid it
! FINALLY! SOMETHING I CAN AGREE WITH, to a degree!
Personally I am more forgiving of movement, based on the fact that most of movements/trends got their fair share amount of bad apples (so I judge them based on the core idea behind it, rather than the members they attract). The idea behind both GamerGate and feminism is fine, but both sides are so hateful of each other based on what they've seen their worst do/say, add to that generalisation and bias, and they'll never see past their misdeeds.
! Your main issues are with jerks who send death threats and other deeds that go hand-in-hand with that, not people who disagree with the current state of journalism when it comes to gaming(and people who might not like to handle everything with kids gloves, as far as I can tell).
I think people shouldn't judge movements based on members they attract, but rather the core idea the movement is about. Life would be a lot easier if people didn't generalize and held others accountable because of ever-present jerks.
http://i.imgur.com/IDFiu4s.png
somethingsomethingskeletonIt'd probably be better to define a movement by what its done and accomplishes in my opinion.
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"The road to the skeleton war is paved with good intentions." -George Washington
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I think this is a really unproductive line or argument though because when something is wrong, you do sometimes have to bang some pots and pans and just get something happening. Questioning whether in the end it will really have an impact, or really directly create honest accountability, is not really a good direction because that's not the fault of the people rightfully stirring things up. That would be kind of like saying "okay, we impeached a corrupt politician, but when his replacement apologizes and then continues to do the same thing, what have you REALLY achieved?" It's just not a good approach.
Not that I'm saying that any of this SkeletonGate stuff is valid in any way.
I perfectly understand that you need some activity. Change doesn't happen immediately. But when it comes to campaigns and movements, the direction should be towards what you want. You don't just senselessly aim towards any journalistic site that criticizes your movement. Yeah I get that Gawker is affiliated with Kotaku, but when it appears that a supermajority of your efforts are directed towards something that isn't directly related to you, then what exactly are you aiming for?
Even worse is that the effect isn't just drumming up pots and pans to get something happening, it's that advertisers are withdrawing because of accusations of bullying which masks the true problem they apparently want to confront. In the case of an impeached politician, at the very minimum, one of the roots has been pulled out even when the system may be at fault. But this? The actions the pro-ggers have brought up at most will hold people accountable to having a "non-bullying" tone rather than any relation to gaming ethics
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@Purple:
I perfectly understand that you need some activity. Change doesn't happen immediately. But when it comes to campaigns and movements, the direction should be towards what you want. You don't just senselessly aim towards any journalistic site that criticizes your movement. Yeah I get that Gawker is affiliated with Kotaku, but when it appears that a supermajority of your efforts are directed towards something that isn't directly related to you, then what exactly are you aiming for?
Even worse is that the effect isn't just drumming up pots and pans to get something happening, it's that advertisers are withdrawing because of accusations of bullying which masks the true problem they apparently want to confront. In the case of an impeached politician, at the very minimum, one of the roots has been pulled out even when the system may be at fault. But this? The actions the pro-ggers have brought up at most will hold people accountable to having a "non-bullying" tone rather than any relation to gaming ethics
Yeah I know, but now we're mixing in reality with hypotheticals. If you are going to argue that this SkeletonGate "progress" won't actually end up driving a change in ethical behavior, then you are already accepting the hypothetical in which the movement has good intentions to begin with, and is targeting sites/people that deserve it. So it sounds a lot more like "yeah, well, even if you're trying to do something right, you're not going to effect real change." Which I think is a bad attitude.
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Yeah I know, but now we're mixing in reality with hypotheticals. If you are going to argue that this SkeletonGate "progress" won't actually end up driving a change in ethical behavior, then you are already accepting the hypothetical in which the movement has good intentions to begin with, and is targeting sites/people that deserve it. So it sounds a lot more like "yeah, well, even if you're trying to do something right, you're not going to effect real change." Which I think is a bad attitude.
Yeah, the other point I wanted to make was that they seem so proud of things that aren't related to their overall mission. I don't mean to mix them up by accepting that it's their actual mission more than trying to say "look guys, this is your purported mission, and these other things are accomplishing well… other things. Why are you so proud that you're "accomplishing things?" Do you really believe in this actual mission of yours?"
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President Obama has finally issued a comment on the skeleton grave and it has left us more troubled than before. "Soon, the ritual will be complete. There is nothing to worry about." Members of the president's cabinet deny any knowledge of this so-called ritual. Is Necrolord Obama once again overstepping his authority? #SkeletonGate #Necrobama #NoBones #RitualAbuse