Well, now that people are bringing up very good points in their criticizing of criticisms of Bellemere, I don't know who or what to believe any more…
Love and Loathe: Daily One Piece Character Analysis
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Gosh, if Bellemere evaluation is already this crazy, Usopp right now would be complete chaos…
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For all the peole ripping on Bellemere I agree…
You're absolutely right. Her haircut does suck!
Oh? No? They're saying her sacrifice was stupid and selfish even though it eliminated the risk of her children being caught in between a lie and executed if they were ever spotted once during Arlong's rule? You know, I didn't know it was selfish to sacrifice yourself for others. You learn something new every day.
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@Medical:
Well, now that people are bringing up very good points in their criticizing of criticisms of Bellemere, I don't know who or what to believe any more…
It's simple, "believe" in the one you agree with.
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Love: She looks relatively cool.
Loathe: I don’t like Nami and I’m pinning that on you, mama!
2.5 / 5
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Loathe: I don’t like Nami and I’m pinning that on you, mama!
That is Luffy and Ace's treatment on reverse LOL.
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Sorry guys, I have a throbbing headache that just won't go away. I think I am going to turn Bellemere into our first 48 hour critique (even though the discussion has been pretty great already). See you all tomorrow.
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Seriously, you scare me dude… I wouldn't like to meet you IRL >.>
Sigh
You know, I'm not even going to comment on this one. If talking in that way about fictional characters scares you, then I most sincerely recommend never touching a history book. Or any philophical threaties on a nature of man. You will never be able to leave the house again if you do.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@The:
I'm no military strategist, but this begs the question:
Then What?
She shoots Arlong in the mouth…and then what?
She gets torn to ribbons by his crew.NOT shooting Arlong was the only bargaining chip she had. She can order the goons to leave, or else their leader dies. If she just kills him right away she has absolutely no leverage, and his crew would most likely murder everyone as revenge.
NOT shooting Arlong right away was the smart thing to do.
Not really. Mostly because she knew he was a pirate from Grande Line. As such, she should have a least an idea he would have a counter to her gun. And if not, I'm curious, how exactly would your plan work? Cause you know, not being a tactical genius myself… The hostage only has a value as long as he is a hostage. So we are assuming that Bellemere was planning to... convince them to leave under the threat that their leader might die.
A) They might just laugh, and say that if he was stupid enough to get caught like that, then he deserves to die.
B) Leave, and then return under the night to just kill everyone.
C) She shoots the bastard, and the we have a bunch of leaderless pirates to deal with.She could not feasibly get any kind of leverage from just holding Arlong at gun point.
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Sigh
You know, I'm not even going to comment on this one. If talking in that way about fictional characters scares you, then I most sincerely recommend never touching a history book. Or any philophical threaties on a nature of man. You will never be able to leave the house again if you do.
It's not only about that post, but all others posts I've seen from you, you sound like someone with a pretty disturbing personality…
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I hate to sound condescending or hyperbolic but the posts I'm reading here make me think some of you are reading this series upside down or something.
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Love: She is a One Piece flashback character, and she is good at that. Not as good as Tom or Hiluluk, who were more developed and had a more complicated story, but she is still great in her own simple way.
Loathe: I can't find it in me to blame her for anything.. and even if I wanted to, after reading Panda's post I just wouldn't be able to.
4/5
You don't need any more people telling you this, I guess, but the extended voting time is better.
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Not really. Mostly because she knew he was a pirate from Grande Line. As such, she should have a least an idea he would have a counter to her gun. And if not, I'm curious, how exactly would your plan work? Cause you know, not being a tactical genius myself… The hostage only has a value as long as he is a hostage. So we are assuming that Bellemere was planning to... convince them to leave under the threat that their leader might die.
A) They might just laugh, and say that if he was stupid enough to get caught like that, then he deserves to die.
B) Leave, and then return under the night to just kill everyone.
C) She shoots the bastard, and the we have a bunch of leaderless pirates to deal with.She could not feasibly get any kind of leverage from just holding Arlong at gun point.
She would be able to buy time for Genzo to call the Marines to deal with the Fishmen (thus, making option B the best one as they couldn't just invade with Marines around). A and C would just result in slaughter of the entire town.
Pretty simple actually.
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Love: Most touching flashback character with Zeff. Like her sacrifice and how she putted that gun on Arlong's mouth. Loathe :Nothing.5/5
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It's not only about that post, but all others posts I've seen from you, you sound like someone with a pretty disturbing personality…
Really now? And why would that be, pray tell. And how would you be able to discern my personality from only my not too serious posts? We have never met, you are incapable of reading my tone of voice, my body language, actually anything besides what I write. I think you lack evidence to deem me disturbing in any way, I'm afraid.
@Thousand:
I hate to sound condescending or hyperbolic but the posts I'm reading here make me think some of you are reading this series upside down or something.
You sound condescending. :getlost:
And any work of fiction can be judged and viewed in different ways. Not just one. Just saying.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
She would be able to buy time for Genzo to call the Marines to deal with the Fishmen (thus, making option B the best one as they couldn't just invade with Marines around).
Pretty simple actually.
If it was that simple, then someone would call the marines while they were busy with her house.
Or, for that matter, during the following years. Because, I will remaind you, Arlong did not live in the village with filthy humans, but was rather a fair distance away.
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Really now? And why would that be, pray tell. And how would you be able to discern my personality from only my not too serious posts? We have never met, you are incapable of reading my tone of voice, my body language, actually anything besides what I write. I think you lack evidence to deem me disturbing in any way, I'm afraid.
Well, just forget it then… I won't discuss this, it has nothing to do with the topic anyway.
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If it was that simple, then someone would call the marines while they were busy with her house.
Or, for that matter, during the following years. Because, I will remaind you, Arlong did not live in the village with filthy humans, but was rather a fair distance away.
With Arlong at gunpoint, she could at least bet on the Fishmen not retaliating against the Marines and the townsfolk.
Time is also not a problem as hostage situations are not always solved in the same day.
Really, it was the only option that wouldn't result in the entire town dying.
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I prefer daily reviews but if 48hrs is easier 48 hours it is.
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Not really. Mostly because she knew he was a pirate from Grande Line. As such, she should have a least an idea he would have a counter to her gun.
Why would she know that? She was probably some small-time marine who never went to the Grand Line.
@Darth:A) They might just laugh, and say that if he was stupid enough to get caught like that, then he deserves to die.
B) Leave, and then return under the night to just kill everyone.
C) She shoots the bastard, and the we have a bunch of leaderless pirates to deal with.She could not feasibly get any kind of leverage from just holding Arlong at gun point.
What are you even arguing for? That option C is better than what really happened? Everyone would have gotten killed through that.
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Obviously, she should have flipped Arlong over and pushed the shotgun up his ass.
I realize that having an emotional attachment to someone can blind a person to reason or good sense, but good lord, the sentiments posted here by Darth and deviant_mugen are almost at my own level of psychopathology. Do you really think all life decisions should be based on cool rationality and detached disinterest? If so, do us all a favor: never raise children. I don't; and apparently (pun unintended) neither should you.
EDIT: What I love about Bellemere is that she exemplifies the tragic hero/heroine: devoted, determined, but ultimately doomed. What I loathe about her is that she exemplifies the tragic hero/heroine: over-confident and more than occasionally overbearing. Two chapters of her are endearing. Twenty chapters of her would require enduring.
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Yeah, pretty much agree with that one.
Also, when you put a gun in pirates mouth, blow his brains out, instead of boasting, for crying out loud. We have absolute justice doctrine for a reason, you know?
When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk.
Final Judgement: 1/5
lmao
your posts in this forum in general…haha...lol
So not looking forward to Akainu analysis, thanks dude.Bellemere
Love: She's a badass with a cool design, motherfigure of Nami and Nojiko. Solid flashback character who provides just the right amount of strength, and emotional power. Plot-wise she was perfect. A female Marine with a heart of gold I guess.Loathe: I never really hated anything about her...probably because it's been a long time since she made appearance and exit.
4.5/5
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Bellemere
Love: Whenever I watch the episode/read the chapters of Bellemere protecting Nami and Nojiko, I tear up immensely and am overcome by the thought of how great a mother Bellemere is. She placed more weight on the satisfaction of being recognised as a mother by Nami and Nojiko than her own life. That scene illustrated to Nami and Nojiko just how connected they all were (even if not blood related) and how much she loves them. I honestly cannot come to dislike anything about Bellemere's character and her actions, she was truly inspirational.
Loathe: that she had to die…
5/5
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I vote for the 24 hour option. 2-3 days is way too long.
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With Arlong at gunpoint, she could at least bet on the Fishmen not retaliating against the Marines and the townsfolk.
Time is also not a problem as hostage situations are not always solved in the same day.
Really, it was the only option that wouldn't result in the entire town dying.
You are assuming that pirates are nice people that would care about their leader being hold hostage.
Why would she know that? She was probably some small-time marine who never went to the Grand Line.
Evidence, I name thee manga! And she was a commisioned officer, since she wore a Justice coat.
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What are you even arguing for? That option C is better than what really happened? Everyone would have gotten killed through that.
Perhaps. And perhaps not.
@_Meh_:
Obviously, she should have flipped Arlong over and pushed the shotgun up his ass.
I realize that having an emotional attachment to someone can blind a person to reason or good sense, but good lord, the sentiments posted here by Darth and deviant_mugen are almost at my own level of psychopathology. Do you really think all life decisions should be based on cool rationality and detached disinterest? If so, do us all a favor: never raise children. I don't; and apparently (pun unintended) neither should you.
EDIT: What I love about Bellemere is that she exemplifies the tragic hero/heroine: devoted, determined, but ultimately doomed. What I loathe about her is that she exemplifies the tragic hero/heroine: over-confident and more than occasionally overbearing. Two chapters of her are endearing. Twenty chapters of her would require enduring.
You know, I think I should be offended by this. I really do. And why should I treat characters as if they were real people, pray tell?
Also, yes, disregarding the gun issue, I think a person that lies, and lives because of that to fight another day, is a better person, then the one that pointlessly sacrifices herself.
lmao
your posts in this forum in general…haha...lol
So not looking forward to Akainu analysis, thanks dude.I know, being mindless sheep that follows the pack is most certainly better. Alternative character interpretation? Bullshit! There is only one character interpretation, and it is ours!
The hell people are doing in this thread, if they believe that? It would be boring as hell, for starters.
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If it's not too late or too much of an inconvenience, I'd like to change my vote from 2 to 3. Both sides are making good points and every time someone makes a post, I change my mind.
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Sigh
You know, I'm not even going to comment on this one. If talking in that way about fictional characters scares you, then I most sincerely recommend never touching a history book. Or any philophical threaties on a nature of man. You will never be able to leave the house again if you do.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Not really. Mostly because she knew he was a pirate from Grande Line. As such, she should have a least an idea he would have a counter to her gun. And if not, I'm curious, how exactly would your plan work? Cause you know, not being a tactical genius myself... The hostage only has a value as long as he is a hostage. So we are assuming that Bellemere was planning to... convince them to leave under the threat that their leader might die.
A) They might just laugh, and say that if he was stupid enough to get caught like that, then he deserves to die.
B) Leave, and then return under the night to just kill everyone.
C) She shoots the bastard, and the we have a bunch of leaderless pirates to deal with.She could not feasibly get any kind of leverage from just holding Arlong at gun point.
The wager looked like this
A) not killing Arlong (at once) - maybe they actually care and won't do anything as long as she has hostage (or at least it would prevent them from action long enough to come up with better plan), or maybe they don't and everything is doomed.
(extra points, since Arlong cares for his men and they care for him, if not for the fact that Arlong can chew on rifle it would worked).
B) killing Arlong - everything is doomed.
I would take uncertain small chances than certain doom.I need to recall exact wording of metaphor Russell used to describe Hobbes, because, if I'm not mistaken, it describes you accurately.
BTW ever heard about care ethics or theory of moral cognition in neural sciences? -
You are assuming that pirates are nice people that would care about their leader being hold hostage.
Doesn't change the fact that it was the only option that could not end up killing everyone in the town.
Low chance over no chance at all. How can you not understand this?
Perhaps. And perhaps not.
Now you are assuming that the pirates are nice people to not kill everyone there for killing one of them.
Also, yes, disregarding the gun issue, I think a person that lies, and lives because of that to fight another day, is a better person, then the one that pointlessly sacrifices herself.
Except it wasn't pointless at all.
Hell, her sacrifice was to let Nami and Nojiko live to fight another day, as you say.
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Evidence, I name thee manga! And she was a commisioned officer, since she wore a Justice coat.
By "know that", I specifically meant know "that she should have an idea that Arlong would have countered her gun". Knowing that a pirate is from the Grand line =/= being at Grand Line and knowing what pirates from there are capable of. She was completely outclassed by Arlong and underestimated him. Is this a valid reason to hate a character?
And about the coat:
Sailors at the rank of ensign (少尉 Shōi?) and above are allowed to wear the coat with "Justice" (正義_Seigi?) on the back. This coat tends to be worn like a cape, draped over the shoulders with the arms not in the sleeves. It should be noted that the sleeves of these coats are often much longer than the wearers' arms._
Ensign is 5 ranks below Captain. All that coat guarantees is that she's stronger than the weakest of weak fodders of the Marines.
@Darth:And perhaps not.
So you think all the pirates would have left peacefully? Or that Bellmere could have taken them all? Both of those are really dumb assumptions.
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Love: I sort of understand Bellmere. I love that she basically fell into the role of mother for her daughters. She tries her best, despite her misgivings. The fight with Nami and the slap are some pretty powerful scenes. Her interactions with Genzo, who also came to be something of a father figure, in the flashback are awesome. An excellent flashback character all around, though probably not as good as Laboon or Hiruluk. A very moving death scene.
Loathe: I didn't like that she was so harsh with her kiddos. But I guess that's just me being a softy. It was so much harder to see her go in the moment because the flashback was so emotionally charged already. The family stuff really gets me for some reason.
4/5
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Also, yes, disregarding the gun issue, I think a person that lies, and lives because of that to fight another day, is a better person, then the one that pointlessly sacrifices herself.
That's the point you don't get. Beyond the romance and the idealism there was a reason to her sacrifice. It's not a perfectly logical reason but she wasn't in a perfect situation, was she? Yet, the decision she came to in that heat of the moment eliminated most of the risks not to herself but others.
She knew there was no way off the island and no Marines coming to the rescue. She knew that her island was small and out of the way, and visitors would be rare. She knew that if she lied about her kids they would have to hide for however long Arlong ruled that island and they were always going to be at risk. All their lives, and she could not live with that fact, or with the notion of being denied as their mother. What would happen if Arlong found out years from then, not only the mother but the rest of the village were hiding Nojiko and Nami's existence?. She knew that if she lied her daughters would be denied the right to live on that island without being hunted down and killed if they were even spotted once.
Bellemere would rather die for her ideals than put Nami and Nojiko at risk like that. To hide them in a basement until help came (which turned out to be 8 years later). She didn't know that Arlong would take Nami (a little human girl) captive and make her draw maps. Arlong was there for the money and he had it for the 2 kids from Bellemere's 100,000.
Even if Bellemere didn't have a reason beyond her ideals and conviction…to say that her sacrifice was meaningless, stupid, selfish, or in vain is just wrong. Completely. Even her death for her convictions shaped Nami amd Nojiko into the wonderful characters they are today, and made an emotional and poignant point in the story. She didn't die stupidly as you and Mugen so try to point out.
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I'm wondering one thing about her sacrifice. How did she think it would go on with Nami and Nojiko afterwards? Assuming Arlong would be true to his word, he would spare them… for one month. But how were they supposed to pay their fee in the following months?
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@Bartholemew:
I'm wondering one thing about her sacrifice. How did she think it would go on with Nami and Nojiko afterwards? Assuming Arlong would be true to his word, he would spare them… for one month. But how were they supposed to pay their fee in the following months?
The citizens would help.
That and they still had the tangerine groves.
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I just wanted to say that the citizens barely had any money for themselves. However, I guess you're right because it's easier for them to somehow get 100000 every time than 200000.
The tangerine groves are there as well, but due to the isolation it boils down to the other citizens and their liquidity, anyway.
Besides, I just reread the chapter and realized that Bellemere supposedly even doesn't know that it's every month. (Though she might have guessed that they high likely will charge their fee in some intervals if no one will stop them in any way.)
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This post is deleted!
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Welp, we had a perfectly good thread here. Not anymore, it seems…
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Welp, we had a perfectly good thread here. Not anymore, it seems…
Nothing to worry about here. Soon new character would be given to evaluation and people will stop debating previous one.
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I too support the 24hr character rule, but I find it impressive that a 3-chapter character like Bellemere has been able to sustain the thread for two days with discussion.
@Bartholemew:
I just wanted to say that the citizens barely had any money for themselves. However, I guess you're right because it's easier for them to somehow get 100000 every time than 200000.
The tangerine groves are there as well, but due to the isolation it boils down to the other citizens and their liquidity, anyway.
Besides, I just reread the chapter and realized that Bellemere supposedly even doesn't know that it's every month. (Though she might have guessed that they high likely will charge their fee in some intervals if no one will stop them in any way.)
We also don't know what the monthly fee was; we just kow the initial one. If Arlong wanted to sustain the situation, the monthly amount would have to be lower.
Also, no one had saved any money; they paid everything they had presently. But from that point on, everyone most likely had to pinch every penny, and thus might scrounge up enough cash to cover for the kids.
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I never understood where the money for the monthly payment came from, since the whole island was isolated thanks to Arlong. I know there were many towns in the island, but all of them had the same problem…
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@The:
I too support the 24hr character rule, but I find it impressive that a 3-chapter character like Bellemere has been able to sustain the thread for two days with discussion.
That is the power of good character-writing. Even though the character wasn't given much time, still there was plenty of things about character, that you won't spot unless you give yourself more time to think about them. When people start to debate, they also start to think about details, that they omitted before.
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I never understood where the money for the monthly payment came from, since the whole island was isolated thanks to Arlong. I know there were many towns in the island, but all of them had the same problem…
Maybe they were still allowed to trade with merchant ships. It's just that they weren't welcomed around too long…
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Bellemere's Arlong Park Evaluation
Whatyou loved:
- Surrogate Mother – Bellemere, along with Dadan and Otohime, is easily one of the most iconic mother figures in One Piece. She took Nami and Nojiko in when they were very young (infant and toddler respectively) and she mothered them the best she could with her very limited funds. The facts that she is not blood related to either child was mentioned many times. You guys like that she “adopted” the girls. She really didn't have to raise those two girl but Bellemere had a big heart. Her last words are a testament the affection she felt towards her daughter. While facing down the barrel of a gun she said “Nami, Nojiko, I love you.” Beautiful.
- Ex Marine – The term 'badass' has not been such an obvious theme of the love section since Garp (also an ex marine). Bellemere's instinct was to attack freaking Arlong. She faced death without flinching, with unwavering certainty. Her butchy hair was also badass. She was a rough and tumble lady and frankly, One Piece could use more of that.
- Not overly Sexualized - Something else that separates her from the rest of the female character fray in regards to One Piece. Bellemere is clearly very pretty (her body was mentioned a couple of times as well) yet she isn't a sexual object, if anything her attitude exudes bmf. She is like a likable motherly Ronda Rousey caricature, which is pretty cool. I should note that this was a distant third behind the first two loves.
Favorite comment goes to Panda Bear(though not really from a love section):
“As a short aside, I'm going to echo something Daz said, but more strongly; here, I'm afraid, I actually do intend to be somewhat judgmental. Blaming Bellemere for what happened to her children is disgusting. Blunt, I know, but if anything it understates how I feel.The one at fault was Arlong, and his crew. You can argue that Bellemere's actions contributed to what happened, that she could have made things better by acting otherwise; you could argue, too, that this is not the case. All irrelevant. Bellemere was a victim, along with everyone else in the village, and laying any sort of blame at her feet is the core of what I find to be some of the most hurtful,damaging, and just plain wrong thinking that exists in the world.__“
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What you loathed:
- Hairdo? Hairdon't! – While some liked it and thought it added to her identity and attitude it was still the first and most often mentioned loathe. It's a strange look that doesn't do it for everyone. One reviewer likened it to Bellmere losing a fight with gardening tools. I personally like it, but I can understand why it throws people off.
- Vain Sacrifice – This loathe made the comment section explode. Still, some of you felt that Bellemere's last stand was “stupid” and “selfish.” Some very compelling cases were made that Bellemere's sacrifice really just doomed her daughters and peers to a grueling and disastrous future. Many seem to think that Bellmere
- Fist of Love? - Here is another interesting parallel Bellemere has with Garp. In Garp's evaluation many felt that he was too physical with Luffy and Ace. Similarly, many noted that Bellemere was the same way with Nami and Nojiko. I've never noticed the similarities before – and they are both ex marines. It makes me wonder if that was a conscious decision on Oda's part.
- Pull the trigger! - as pictured above, as cool as the scene was when she attacked Arlong many noted their frustration at Bellemere's choice to monologue rather than blow that psychopaths brains out.
Favorite comment goes to Meh:
“What I loathe about her is that she exemplifies the tragic hero/heroine:over-confident and more than occasionally overbearing. Two chapters of her are endearing. Twenty chapters of her would require enduring.__“
Finally,the poll! With 25 votes, Bellmere's average score is…3.78! That puts her in the rankings at #10, one place bellow Garp!
Thanks to all that responded! I will post my next pick later on today. Here's the HINT: I'll bet our next character gives the best hugs.
Until then.
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Best hugs eh? Could it be… :ninja:
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Bartholomew Kuma
edit: Just wanted to say that I think the 48 hours thing really works. Gives people more time to discuss, and I think that as long as it doesn't devolve too much it is more entertaining that way.
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Sandersonia/Marigold?
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@Light:
Best hugs eh? Could it be… :ninja:
I certainly hope so
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Maybe…
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Kuzan -
Best hugs must be Monet.
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Nami's hugs are the best, no?
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Heart Pirates' Navigator, Bepo.
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The strongest man in the world is on the move. Love & Loathe #17 Let's get our legend on! It's time to evaluate: Edward Newgate (better known as Whitebeard)
(get it?)Gurararara...Here's the deal: We are looking to hyper-critique a character to try and pinpoint what makes them great and what makes them terrible. After enough people respond, I will organize what are the best and worst traits of the character, and compile an evaluation post later. Also,don't worry if you have the same answers as others,the point is to figure out a common denominator for the character.
So the two questions for you are:
What one thing do you consistently love about Whitebeard?
What one thing do you consistently loathe about Whitebeard?And give Whitebeard a rating of between 1 and 5, with 5 being the highest(.5's are acceptable - ex. 1.5 or 4.5). I will tally these.
**This will be a 48 hour evaluation.Enjoy.
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Love: Well, he's plain awesome. Even at his eighties he still nukes it out with admirals. Not to mention is a great father figure. Plus Dat Moustache.
Loathe: Nothing in particular. Tough Dat Moustache did look a little silly.
Overall: 4.5/5