What if Rosebud was actually a basketball instead?
Space Jam 2
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Yeah, seven Samurai was very much like a western. Why it translated SO easily to The Magnificent Seven. A lot of samurai films and westerns share same concepts of loners wandering from town to town in an untamed frontier changing into the modern world, and duels of honor. Mostly its changing swords with guns and a lot of the basics are the same.
We need a poll asking what's better between Space Jam and Citizen Kane.
In this forum I think Space Jam would win handily.
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You've just reminded me that a few years ago Vertigo Finally Surpassed Citizen Kane at the best movie of all time poll.Here's a Link about that. [http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/vertigo-citizen-kane-greatest-film-of-all-time-357266
A](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/vertigo-citizen-kane-greatest-film-of-all-time-357266)bout Kurosawa i love Seven Samurais but i think Yojimbo is superior or at least i prefer it. If seven Samurais has a grander and more developed scope, Yojimbo is a personal study into ethics, morals and human nature from a different and more concentrated perspective. Also the final scene is fuckin' awesome and makes me want to have Toshiro Mifune´s children.
I would love to talk about Tokyo story but FUCKIN NO ONE has the film in México and i'm too poor to order it from Amazon.
You should all see the Bird People of China. It's beautiful.
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Speaking of classic Japanese movies, 47 Ronin (the original 1941 black and white four hour movie split into two movies) was a huge disappointment. Dreadfully slow, full of grandstanding and epic speeches and it never feels like there's any payoff. When they finally get their revenge, it's done off screen and then they talk about what they did. Like….aghhhh show don't tell, geez. I thought the ending was pretty poignant and payoffish but it was a chore of a movie/s to watch.
Give it credit though, it's way better than the garbage remake with Keanu Reeves.
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@RobbyBevard:
I love that there's an in depth Citizen Kane discussion going on in the Space Jam 2 thread.
We should debate like, a whole bunch of classics. In this thread. Just cause.
Nope, that's a problem I have with it too. The film probably should have had another 10 or 20 minute sequence. No idea what that could possibly entail or how it would actually add to the narrative in any significant way… but yes, it skips a very, VERY large chunk of the man's life and it feels like that's missing.
I remember the scene in question I believe. It's when his friends and his partner were watching him mingle with the businessmen and were like "You think those guys will be a negative influence? Nah that'll never happen". Ten years later, "Whoops, guess they were!" Lol
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So, only extremely tangentially related, but speaking of classic movies, I just recently discovered that an entire group of my friends had never even heard of LaserDisc, let alone knew what they are. The world continues to conspire to make me feel old before my time.
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I've never seen Citizen Kane before….but that didn't stop SFDebris from spoling the ending of the movie for me.
Granted Chuck is an awesome guy and it's my fault for not having watched it at albut still.
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@No:
I've never seen Citizen Kane before….but that didn't stop SFDebris from spoling the ending of the movie for me.
Does anybody not know who Rosebud is at this point?
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Does anybody not know who Rosebud is at this point?
It's about as much common knowledge as Darth Vader being Luke's father.
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Or that Snape killed Dumbledore.
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Hell, even the massive plot hole at the start of CK is common knowledge.
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@Thousand:
Or that Snape killed Dumbledore.
If true, thanks. :getlost:
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I think the worst spoiler ruined for me was Keyser Soze. That's a reveal experience I'll never be able to enjoy.
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@No:
If true, thanks. :getlost:
Dude, seriously? lol
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Spoilers
While many of those are legitimately famous, 'you should know this already' twists, there are a number where I don't even have any idea what they're referencing in the first place.
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@Thousand:
I think the worst spoiler ruined for me was Keyser Soze. That's a reveal experience I'll never be able to enjoy.
Weird. I actually watched The Usual Suspects for the first time about a week ago, and I had no idea about the reveal.
Rosebud though….yeah, really wish pop culture would stop spoiling these great moments for us (though I did watch it in film class and there were some students who actually didn't know what it was).
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Fredo was in on the plot to kill Micheal:ninja:.
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Planet of the Apes is a weird one. Like that scene is so ingrained in popculture that you don't even realize that him being on Earth was the supposed big reveal. You just took that for granted and just assumed Charlton Heston was a weird guy who really liked the Stature of Liberty.
Same with Terminator two with Arnie being a good guy this time but the way it was directed clearly indicated it was supposed to be a big reveal.
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@Xen:
I'd be game for this, but there's no way Lebron can carry a movie even half as decently as Jordan did. Lebron just has 0 personality.
Jordan has less personality than LeBron, lol. He's for all intents and purpose the talented stoic asshole. Lebron is a funny, quirky talented dude.
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Gwyneth Paltrow is in the box.
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A great movie isn't affected by a spoiled ending. If it only depends on that it's probable not that good.
@Thousand:
Speaking of classic Japanese movies, 47 Ronin (the original 1941 black and white four hour movie split into two movies) was a huge disappointment. Dreadfully slow, full of grandstanding and epic speeches and it never feels like there's any payoff. When they finally get their revenge, it's done off screen and then they talk about what they did. Like….aghhhh show don't tell, geez. I thought the ending was pretty poignant and payoffish but it was a chore of a movie/s to watch.
Give it credit though, it's way better than the garbage remake with Keanu Reeves.
Haven't seen it but from what you are describing it's probable that the movie was based in the Joruri Play and not only the historical facts.
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@Thousand:
Same with Terminator two with Arnie being a good guy this time but the way it was directed clearly indicated it was supposed to be a big reveal.
Yeah, the commercials and advance media totally blew that one. Hell, not only did everyone know Arnie was a goodguy, everyone knew the cop was a liquid metal terminator. Both of those reveals things you weren't supposed to know until the last second at the mall. (Of course made weirder by the fact Arnie became a big star after T1, so it was impossible to think of him as a badguy anymore anyway)
A great movie isn't affected by a spoiled ending. If it only depends on that it's probable not that good.
When the twist changes the conceit of the entire movie and is supposed to force you to look back on what you jsut watched with fresh eyes… or a second time entirely... having some of that taken out of the first time ruins it.
Hell, Memento is built around that concept. Its a movie you can really only watch purely once. Its designed to surprise and bend your perception of events every couple minutes.
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So yeah… this movie is still happening, with or without Lebron it seems. http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/02/22/lebron-james-space-jam-2-starring-role-rumors/
I think it's be great with two or three stars this time. Lebron and Kobe or Lebron and Kevin Durant, or all three.
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I don't mind people that do this unless they are all like "I don't understand how anyone would like this" proceeded by a long tangent on why it should not be praised or hyped by anyone. It comes across as really intrusive, and it pisses me off even more when these same people act like victims for having a differing opinion. By yeah. Short and cute version:
I actually dislike this viewpoint as presented in the video because a lot of people use it to excuse the inherently oppressive aspects of their work and paint their critics as being unnecessarily aggressive and "rocking the boat" for "no reason". It's easy to appear as the "calm and rational" party when you've been situated in the defensive position (that which upholds hegemony). "There are no sacred cows in art". Alright, put it in your work. But if you have the expectation that you won't be criticized for it, or you take the position that your critics SHOULDN'T be upset, then it's a failing on your part.
Example:
!
At the same time, I do agree that you shouldn't necessarily discount an entire work because of its oppressive aspects.
Example:
Here we have two transphobic twists, in The Crying Game and Psycho. I've never seen The Crying Game, but I've seen Psycho plenty of times. It's one of the only "scary movies" that can actually scare me. And it's a beautiful work of art. That doesn't excuse its inherently transphobic elements. But those elements don't destroy the integrity of the film as a whole.
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@Thousand:
I think the worst spoiler ruined for me was Keyser Soze. That's a reveal experience I'll never be able to enjoy.
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Dude, seriously? lol
Yeah chalk that up to me not getting any of the books after Order of the Phoenix and none of the movies after Goblet of Fire being on local TV yet.
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@Panda:
While many of those are legitimately famous, 'you should know this already' twists, there are a number where I don't even have any idea what they're referencing in the first place.
Darth Vader is Luke's Father - The Empire Strikes Back
It Was Earth All Along - Planet of the Apes
Verbal is Keyser Soze - The Usual Suspects
The Villagers Sacrifice the Policeman - The Wicker Man
Dil is Actually a Man - The Crying Game
Kristin Shot J.R. - Dallas
Snape Kills Dumbledore - Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
The Kid's Therapist is a Ghost - The Sixth Sense
Neo is The One - The Matrix
Tyler Durden Isn't Real - Fight Club
299 Die - 300
Rosebud Was the Name of His Sled - Citizen Kane
The Protagonists Are the Others - The Others (duh)
The Killer's Mother is a Part of His Split Personality - Psycho
Soylent Green is Made of People - Soylent Green (duh)
The Village is Part of a Modern Nature Reserve - The Village (duh)
His Friends Are All a Part of His Beautiful Mind - A Beautiful Mind (duh)
Donnie Dies - Donnie Darko -
@No:
Yeah chalk that up to me not getting any of the books after Order of the Phoenix and none of the movies after Goblet of Fire being on local TV yet.
If you haven't gotten to them after 10 years, when they were major franchises with a ton of discussion about them as they came… then its your own non-rush to blame.
And thats a major spoiler thats been meme-ed since pretty much day 1. Knowing that it happens doesn't tell you WHY though.
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I like how this thread has organically transformed into a film discussion thread held together by Space Jam.
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I was spoiled with the Snape stuff. It was a few days after release and I had just gotten the book. I had AIM on and someone went around messaging everyone "SNAPE KILLED DUBBLEDORE". Hahaha. I thought he was trolling.
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So yeah… this movie is still happening, with or without Lebron it seems. http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/02/22/lebron-james-space-jam-2-starring-role-rumors/
I think it's be great with two or three stars this time. Lebron and Kobe or Lebron and Kevin Durant, or all three.
implying the star of the film isn't Bugs Bunny
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Neo is The One - The Matrix
Shouldn't this insultingly obvious once you watch the movie.
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Shouldn't this insultingly obvious once you watch the movie.
Yeah that one's not really a twist, not sure why it's on there.
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Soylent Green, The Crying Game and The Others are the only ones I haven't watched.
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stuff.
The video was only added flavor to my orignal point. Which solely focuses on those that are all like:
@Me:
I don't mind people that do this unless they are all like "I don't understand how anyone would like this" proceeded by a long tangent on why it should not be praised or hyped by anyone. It comes across as really intrusive, and it pisses me off even more when these same people act like victims for having a differing opinion. By yeah. Short and cute version:
Basically bitchy people that don't expect their criticisms to be taken lightly when it's presented in a jerky high-horse manner. Especially in very specific environments(or in context of my post; a topic on an internet forum or interests group for example) where such an approach either isn't needed.
But yeah. Disagree with one phrase that can be broadly defined in the video alone if you want. Just making myself clear.
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@Thousand:
Planet of the Apes is a weird one. Like that scene is so ingrained in popculture that you don't even realize that him being on Earth was the supposed big reveal. You just took that for granted and just assumed Charlton Heston was a weird guy who really liked the Stature of Liberty.
Except the book ending, which they changed, was so much better:
! The story is pretty similar except its from around a couple traveling in space who find a message in a bottle. Basically the message what happens to Ulysess but after reading the story the couple discount the message as fiction because no human could be smart enough to write that
Besides Momento, knowing the ending of the first SAW movie would have totally ruined it for me. I usually don't care if I know the ending first because one of my favorite story telling techniques is where the ending is shown but you have no idea how it comes to that conclusion.
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@RobbyBevard:
Yeah, the commercials and advance media totally blew that one. Hell, not only did everyone know Arnie was a goodguy, everyone knew the cop was a liquid metal terminator. Both of those reveals things you weren't supposed to know until the last second at the mall. (Of course made weirder by the fact Arnie became a big star after T1, so it was impossible to think of him as a badguy anymore anyway)
When the twist changes the conceit of the entire movie and is supposed to force you to look back on what you jsut watched with fresh eyes… or a second time entirely... having some of that taken out of the first time ruins it.
Hell, Memento is built around that concept. Its a movie you can really only watch purely once. Its designed to surprise and bend your perception of events every couple minutes.
I recently rewatched T2 and Its amazing how well the movie works if you didn't know Arnie was the good guy.
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Shouldn't this insultingly obvious once you watch the movie.
Another one of those "taken for granted NOW" sorts of things fifteen years later… but the FIRST time you saw the movie, back in 1999, it was surrounded by commercials of "No one can be told what the Matrix is" a couple mysterious shot of bullet time, and anyone you talked to would have a hard time describing what it was and tell you to just go see it for yourself. And going into the movie, yes it was obvious Neo was the main character, and the fact that as the movie progressed it was clear he was the One... you didn't know the entire world was a computer simulation or what the hell was going on, and him waking up in the real world was a big shcok twist turn. It was like half an hour into the movie instead of the end... but it was a legitimate surprise twist sort of thing.
But fitting that into the poster tagline would be tricky as "The world of the matrix is actually a computer simulation by machines and you are just a battery living in it, and btw, you are already living in the matrix".
Geez. The Matrix is almost as old as some of the people on this board. I feel old again.
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Seven Samurai is a mediocre movie and it's not even in the top 10 Kurosawa films. It's influential though to western cinema and the same critics think way more highly of it than it deserves, which is always wacky to me, but at least the other influential movies like Rashomon are pretty damn good.
Ikiru being the definitive masterpiece film he directed.
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oh. I missed like three pages that went on after that.
but i am genuinely curious what japanese movies people have watched. Like, if you ask what the greatest japanese film is in American circles, you'd get SEVEN SAMURAI and it will also probably be one of the only ones they've seen, but in a Japanese student film club, you'd be bound to have the guy who thinks it's Ningen no Jouken, or more likely in a group Tokyo Story which is Japan's Citizen Kane (aka the most boring movie everyone is tired of hearing about For The Rest Of Their Lives). diff'rent perspactive stuff. to be fair japanese film critics in general concede on Seven Samurai ranking high, but English critics do the same thing to citizen kane and on an individual level it's not often a favorite… it's still nobody's favorite Kurosawa film though haha. Unless you're really boring. Like Dryish.
The overlap between what critics consider important and legendary, and what they would put in their personal favorite films, is more interesting to me. You usually get rid of the 50s post-war dramas and keep the arthouse yakuza films lol....... on the English front I think it would actually work out the same way. Like, The Godfather is immensely watchable as far as public conscious goes and it'd probably stick around. A lot of films that are considered important shaped things, struck cores in their own times, it's an important part of history and I'm not denying it.
But like I don't know where Space Jam would fit.…......................
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@Holy:
Ikiru being the definitive masterpiece film he directed.
Ikiru is so damn good
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@Holy:
Ikiru being the definitive masterpiece film he directed.
Ikiru is definitely my favorite Japanese film and one of my favorites ever. I enjoy Seven Samurai a little less, but it's a masterpiece to me.
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So now we're on Kurosawa, eh?
Well, I haven't seen Ikiru, but of the four Kurosawa films I have seen (Seven Samurai, Rashomon, Yojimbo, and Kagemusha), I think Rashomon is my favorite.
Oh, and not that it's a Kurosawa film, but I haven't seen Tokyo Story either.
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Gettin real pretentious up in here
Can we all just agree that The Lego Movie is the best movie ever made
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You should send me a care package with Tokyo Story, Sansho the Bailiff and other movies from Yasujiro Ozu. Can't fin them in México.
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This isn't the first time I've seen a discussion about Kurosawa movies being called "pretentious". I don't know why, because I thought it was fairly standard knowledge. Spellchecker even considers "Kurosawa" a valid word. Plus, I remember a few years ago that my super Hispanic therapist mentioned Toshiro Mifune when I got everyone to watch Thirteen Assassins (not the greatest idea in retrospect, admittedly).
As for Kurosawa…I've honestly only seen one, and that's of course, Seven Samurai. I had to watch it in two sittings, because I'm not the kind of person who can sit down for 3 1/2 hours to do anything, really. I thought it was...alright. I can still remember a few of the characters who aren't Kikuchiyo, but I still felt it moved waaay too slow. (And this from someone who loves 2001: A Space Odyssey.) I dunno why I haven't seen any more of his stuff, though. I've been meaning to check out Rashomon for years now.
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I managed to somehow not hear anything about Matrix until I randomly saw it on TV. And it was amazing.
The first movie that is. The other ones…..eh.
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My favorite movie is Avengers. That's as unpretentious as you can get.
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Amazingly enough, I was able to watch Citizen Kane unspoiled and was blown away by the Rosebud reveal.
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The best part everyone knowing the twist to Citizen Kane is that most of them don't actually understand it.