There are hundreds of different male characters in the series, and maybe five females. Less if we count body archetypes.
What do you think of the way women are portrayed in OP?
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@Monkey:
There are hundreds of different male characters in the series, and maybe five females. Less if we count body archetypes.
Wow, you're wildly exaggerating. Your point must be so valid(!)
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Wow, you're wildly exaggerating. Your point must be so valid(!)
Your inability to read things as anything but literal is exactly why you made that dumbass response to her above lol.
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Yeah, I think that there's a lot of misinterpretation going around right now.
But I do find it a little surprising that nobody is able to relate to Usopp? He was pretty explicitly put in there so that the audience had a relatable character.
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Really? you think the audience can relate with Usopp?
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I thought Sanji in Nami's body was funny, it didn't offend me. My only problem with that scenario was what carcanclaw mentioned, that all of a sudden Nami started doing badass physical stuff. Why does it have to be because at that point she's a dude? Why can't the female characters just do that on their own initiative instead of standing around looking pretty?
Universalshadow, you say there are "no guys exactly like me" in One Piece. How so? How do you identify? There are so many personality types and attitudes towards threatening situations and towards life in general in One Piece. I really find it hard to believe that there is no character that resonates with you. It can't really be compared with the fact that it's a struggle to find a woman who is both attractive, and treated as of equal power, on merit of her own physical abilities, to men. Or even a woman that shows the same gutsiness and willingness to get her hands dirty. Robin I feel is close, but her power is still stand back and attack from afar. Hina I feel might be close? But we haven't seen much of her in 15 years… The Boa sisters and Boa Hancock I think are good examples of what I would like to see more of. Yes Hancock's ability is ridiculous but I mean the part where she actually started kicking Smoker and revealed that she is physically strong and capable of holding her own in a fight without using Mero Mero.
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Really? you think the audience can relate with Usopp?
Well, Oda's explicitly said as much, so yeah.
Do tell me which Straw Hat you find more relatable than Usopp.
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Really? you think the audience can relate with Usopp?
He is literally the everyman character.
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I always forget about Hina. She had a pretty good ability that I would really like to see more of since it was so weirdly specific.
Robin's ability I wouldn't say was stereotypically feminine, it's more what she decides to name her attacks…I suppose the petal special effects too. But she doesn't have a combatant attitude. -
Well, Oda's explicitly said as much, so yeah.
Do tell me which Straw Hat you find more relatable than Usopp.
I don't know about you, but I've never seen a dude as timid as Usopp and yet so boastful. Of all the SHs, he's the only one I don't like. I relate with Robin more than anyone in the crew. She had a difficult childhood yet, she was able to make something out of her life. I admire her a lot. Sometimes, I try to imagine what she went through between the age of 8 up to when she met Croc. It's a miracle she's alive.
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I don't know about you, but I've never seen a dude as timid as Usopp and yet so boastful. Of all the SHs, he's the only one I don't like. I relate with Robin more than anyone in the crew. She had a difficult childhood yet, she was able to make something out of her life. I admire her a lot. Sometimes, I try to imagine what she went through between the age of 8 up to when she met Croc. It's a miracle she's alive.
Wow, this may be the most relatable post you've ever made in this thread.
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I don't know about you, but I've never seen a dude as timid as Usopp and yet so boastful. Of all the SHs, he's the only one I don't like. I relate with Robin more than anyone in the crew. She had a difficult childhood yet, she was able to make something out of her life. I admire her a lot. Sometimes, I try to imagine what she went through between the age of 8 up to when she met Croc. It's a miracle she's alive.
You mentioned Usopp's personality type and how he's boastful, say you've never seen it yet to describe Robin you use specific instances and experiences to point out how she is relatable.
Don't you think you owe Usopp the same level of examination?
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I always forget about Hina. She had a pretty good ability that I would really like to see more of since it was so weirdly specific.
Robin's ability I wouldn't say was stereotypically feminine, it's more what she decides to name her attacks…I suppose the petal special effects too. But she doesn't have a combatant attitude.Hina is a dominatrix fantasy :ninja:
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Lol at people saying Robin is just a long range fighter. She is perfectly fine fighting close range aswell with her abilities. See Crocodile, Iceberg, Pell, Hammond. Actually it depends where her opponent is. With Moria she obviousl had to fight long range but someone like Crocodile or Hammond she resorted to close range because of their different bodies.
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Lol at people saying Robin is just a long range fighter. She is perfectly fine fighting close range aswell with her abilities. See Crocodile, Iceberg, Pell, Hammond. Actually it depends where her opponent is. With Moria she obviousl had to fight long range but someone like Crocodile or Hammond she resorted to close range because of their different bodies.
You can look at it that way, but what they are saying is most range abilities goes to women. They want to see women in close combat situations like Luffy and Sanji. Imagine Nami wielding two Yorus and going against Mihawk. Then couple of chapters later, Mihawk is defeated with Nami looking like Zoro at the end of Thriller Bark. They believe that shows gender equality.
Also, all the ladies in OP should cover themselves up FFS and cut it out with the boob job. In the real world, A and B Cups are the way to go, those perky double Ds are unrealistic. They won't mind a female Shichibukai with a large scar on the left side of her face and wolverine-like claws with blood dripping from it. Hancock? Give me a break. Enough of beating up old people already, they want to see Franky hold maybe someone like Conis or Margaret down with his centaur and launch a decent Coup de vent to her face. At that point, OP will now be in sync with the real world and all the audience will have something to relate to instead of the typical 12-16yo boys.
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@indigo~ink:
Or even a woman that shows the same gutsiness and willingness to get her hands dirty.
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The way I see it, only Alvida, Tsuru, Hancock and Califa have really sexist powers. Hina has that power is because she catches pirates. Not some dominatrix type deal. It ties into her character the same way the disgusting Caribou has a swamp fruit or hot headed Ace has fire. I don't think Paula, Robin, Merrychristmas, Perona, Marigold, Sandersonia, Monet, Baby 5, Violet or Jora have sexist powers at all. 11/15 women have pretty "unfeminine" powers.
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You seem to be under the impression that existing examples topple legions of counter-examples.
You seem to be trying to argue also for the sole purpose of maintaining a just-world feeling. -
I wonder if Pica is female? That would be cool.
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I don't think "women get sexist powers" is good direction for the discussion. If all the women, or even the majority of them, would have powers of something traditionally associated with femininity, than that would be sexist. But that's not the case. Only some women have powers somehow associated with femininity and even that in some cases is a stretch. I don't see soap or ability to control weight as something really that feminine.
For the note Boa Hancock doesn't have "girly" power, she just use it in "feminine" way - combining it with her beauty. If you analyze her power closely it's just ability to to turn things into stone by some sort of contact. It can be physical contact, but it's also effective by just eye contact. She uses her beauty to make people look at her in order to change them to stone.
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I don't think "women get sexist powers" is good direction for the discussion. If all the women, or even the majority of them, would have powers of something traditionally associated with femininity, than that would be sexist. But that's not the case. Only some women have powers somehow associated with femininity and even that in some cases is a stretch. I don't see soap or ability to control weight as something really that feminine.
They might not be feminine, but they do have fetish appeal, which contributes to the fanservice aspect.
For the note Boa Hancock doesn't have "girly" power, she just use it in "feminine" way - combining it with her beauty. If you analyze her power closely it's just ability to to turn things into stone by some sort of contact. It can be physical contact, but it's also effective by just eye contact. She uses her beauty to make people look at her in order to change them to stone.
I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that Hancock's DF is "love-themed", from the name of the DF to the heart imagery found in most of her attacks.
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They might not be feminine, but they do have fetish appeal, which contributes to the fanservice aspect.
I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that Hancock's DF is "love-themed", from the name of the DF to the heart imagery in most of her attacks.
people have different fetishes, there are probably many people, who fetishize some DF possed by men, basically anything can be fetishized. I see no grounds to argue over this, especially since moderate fanservice isn't really something bad.
I'm pretty sure DF users can decide shapes of attacks themselves. Fruits have puny names, if not for the character choosing to use this particular power in this particular way we would probably think of it's name just as about one more quirk.
But no matter, all put together make the character have really feminine vibe. I can't say it's bad. It's good to have really strong and really feminine female character. So often female characters in fiction are simply not aloud to be both strong and feminine. -
Seriously? You don't see bubbles and bubble baths as feminine? Your point about not all women having such powers is reasonable but using that as an example doesn't help your case.
Also saying "anything can be a fetish" is not an argument. Then again you don't really seem to be arguing, since your next sentence essentially says "it's not a bad thing anyway."
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Seriously? You don't see bubbles and bubble baths as feminine? Your point about not all women having such powers is reasonable but using that as an example doesn't help your case.
Bubble baths tend to be associated with little children as well, it's not really something that screams "girly!" when you think about about it.
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I think Tsuru and Califa are the only ones with definite feminine powers. Hancock and Alvida just use theirs for lust because it's in their characters.
Thinking about it, I think Kinemon is a good example of a man with a potentially feminine ability.
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@Monkey:
Bubble baths tend to be associated with little children, not women.
You do know Kalifa was sitting in a bath naked (obviously Oda trying to sneak in some fanservice) when Nami was about to fight her?
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@The:
On the whole, I don't think that theres anything that can't be made fun of, theres no "sacred" topics. Jokes can be plain bad though, or uncomfortable (racist jokes, sexist jokes), but with something like, say, stand-up comedy (which I adore) at least they exist mostly in a vacuum.
I was actually thinking about stand-up comedy as i wrote that. Specifically Russell Peters, who i would assume that someone could find offensive, i was actually thinking to myself could someone who problematizes things regularly enjoy his brand of comedy
But that seems fair enough, thank you for your input
At what point do you get to keep considering something comedy if it's not funny at all, or original? For a joke to be excused of its tastelessness it has to bring some real worth. Failed tasteless jokes are just insults.
Dunno, maybe at that Paul Mooney at his worst level where he stops even trying to joke and just rants?
I mean of course you can eventually crossover into an area where it's not comedy anymore, just that for me that tolerance line is rarely tested, i just take comedy as a form of venting human foibles and not as serious or profound thoughts, even if they sometimes cross over to that as well
Wait a minute, aren't you the MRA from earlier?
What's an MRA?
Robin's ability I wouldn't say was stereotypically feminine, it's more what she decides to name her attacks…I suppose the petal special effects too. But she doesn't have a combatant attitude.
I never saw the supposed femininity in snapping people's spines and stomping them with gigant limbs
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@Monkey:
Bubble baths tend to be associated with little children as well, it's not really something that screams "girly!" when you think about about it.
I don't know where you're from but it sure as hell screams "girly!" from what I've experienced my whole life. Hell baths IN GENERAL (as opposed to showers) are considered girly. I mean sure little kids like them as well, but that's not relevant unless we're talking about little kids.
@wolfwoof:
for me that tolerance line is rarely tested, i just take comedy as a form of venting human foibles and not as serious or profound thoughts, even if they sometimes cross over to that as well
I mean I know what you're saying but the issue is that even things that weren't meant to be taken seriously contribute to and impact society/culture. It's like the opposite of the concept of "any publicity is good publicity." Putting a message out there even through a joke still puts a message out there. So that doesn't automatically mean it shouldn't be considered further.
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You do know Kalifa was sitting in a bath naked (obviously Oda trying to sneak in some fanservice) when Nami was about to fight her?
The point is if someone tells you there is a character in a fictional series that has a power related to bubbles, you wouldnt be certain of their gender simply from knowing their type of abilities.
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@Monkey:
The point is if someone tells you there is a character in a fictional series that has a power related to bubbles, you wouldnt be certain of their gender simply from knowing their type of abilities.
I would assume she is female.
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I don't know where you're from but it sure as hell screams "girly!" from what I've experienced my whole life. Hell baths IN GENERAL (as opposed to showers) are considered girly. I mean sure little kids like them as well, but that's not relevant unless we're talking about little kids.
What you and other people consider girly might be consider unisex for millions of other people. Like things such as hair styling, dancing or earrings.
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@Monkey:
What you and other people consider girly might be consider unisex for millions of other people. Like things such as hair styling, dancing or earrings.
Yes, and in Japan there is a huge bath culture as well, but we're talking about bubble baths specifically. If you find evidence that bubble baths are popular with men in Japan or most places in the world, I will be very surprised.
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I was about to question that baths were considered girly. But then you added bubble lol
Anyhow having a bathtub is a must, preferably one should have a pool and a bathtub to maximize ones time spent in water
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Speaking about feminine DF abilities, I would like to see Oda draw more examples of males using said DFs like how he did with Robin's.
Preferably, using the same dude.
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^Speaking of, Oda drew Kalifa with Kaku's fruit. Even if the latter wouldn't change physically, I still would've liked to see bubble Kaku.
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^Speaking of, Oda drew Kalifa with Kaku's fruit. Even if the latter wouldn't change physically, I still would've liked to see bubble Kaku.
He would have blown bubbles out his nose.
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Yes, and in Japan there is a huge bath culture as well, but we're talking about bubble baths specifically. If you find evidence that bubble baths are popular with men in Japan or most places in the world, I will be very surprised.
here's something Foolio
!
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He would have blown bubbles out his nose.
Ah yes his huge phallic nose spurting out a creamy liquid soap:ninja:
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@indigo~ink:
I thought Sanji in Nami's body was funny, it didn't offend me. My only problem with that scenario was what carcanclaw mentioned, that all of a sudden Nami started doing badass physical stuff. Why does it have to be because at that point she's a dude? Why can't the female characters just do that on their own initiative instead of standing around looking pretty?
Well you would not expect Nami to leap into a lake filling up with poison, rescue a torso from a shark and then rush to the surface in such an action-esque way any more than you would Usopp, right? It's the specific character that's in her body that makes it work, rather than simply their gender.
That said, I get that there aren't really any female characters at all who you would expect to do something like that.
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here's something Foolio
! http://animeaura.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Uchuu-Kyoudai-Mutta-loves-bubbles-Episode-15.jpg
XD well played.
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@wolfwoof:
i was actually thinking to myself could someone who problematizes things regularly enjoy his brand of comedy
Those are some pretty unfortunate connotations there.
@wolfwoof:
What's an MRA?
Men's rights activist.
@wolfwoof:
Ah yes his huge phallic nose spurting out a creamy liquid soap:ninja:
LOL ew.
Maybe we should go back to the domination conversation.
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Seriously? You don't see bubbles and bubble baths as feminine?
I can actually say, with complete sincerity, that I have never thought of either of those things as being 'feminine', no. Of course, I'm probably just some anomaly far outside of the norm on that, and won't try to pretend otherwise, so I'm not really raising it to argue the point; just wanted to put it out there, since the concept seems completely unfathomable to you.
As far as the powers discussion goes, this may be a fine distinction, but I would say any problem lays less with the powers themselves, and more with the way they are used. Continuing with the Kalifa example, I would argue that far, far fewer people would take any issue with the fact that her DF was 'bubbles' if, for example, she hadn't randomly decided to take a bath in the middle of the fight, and had continued to use her whip in conjunction with her new abilities, instead of evidently completely forgetting that she was a deadly physical combatant.
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Soap is pretty much unisex. Bubbly is made girly for some reason I can't comprehand (I don't think they are girly, but I can see some people see this association), maybe it's because it's nice and soft and those things are consider girly? But again it isn't something that screams of traditional femininity. Further more the power itself is soap. Bubbles are a one way the character decided to use this power. Those devil fruits are all about creativity combining your natural assets, your earlier aquired skills and your personal ideas with their power. Have this fruit be given to different character outcome may had been different.
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Well you would not expect Nami to leap into a lake filling up with poison, rescue a torso from a shark and then rush to the surface in such an action-esque way any more than you would Usopp, right? It's the specific character that's in her body that makes it work, rather than simply their gender.
That said, I get that there aren't really any female characters at all who you would expect to do something like that.
That's kinda the problem in a nutshell.
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@Panda:
I can actually say, with complete sincerity, that I have never thought of either of those things as being 'feminine', no. Of course, I'm probably just some anomaly far outside of the norm on that, and won't try to pretend otherwise, so I'm not really raising it to argue the point; just wanted to put it out there, since the concept seems completely unfathomable to you.
Unfathomable, no. Surprising, yes. But I don't claim to be an expert on global bubble bath culture. I certainly do think in Japan bubble baths hold that feminine connotation, but I haven't lived there. I'm especially surprised someone in the U.S. wouldn't see it as feminine, if not first-hand ("you take bubble baths? What are you, a GIRL!?") then through media reinforcement. I only bring up Japan because it would probably be more pertinent to Oda's view/intention, but regardless it doesn't mean we can't discuss how it is perceived across the globe.
@Panda:
As far as the powers discussion goes, this may be a fine distinction, but I would say any problem lays less with the powers themselves, and more with the way they are used. Continuing with the Kalifa example, I would argue that far, far fewer people would take any issue with the fact that her DF was 'bubbles' if, for example, she hadn't randomly decided to take a bath in the middle of the fight, and had continued to use her whip in conjunction with her new abilities, instead of evidently completely forgetting that she was a deadly physical combatant.
Yes well that's too easy. I mean the way she wraps herself around Nami (and also Sanji maybe?) and "soaps them up" is more than enough.
Soap is pretty much unisex. Bubbly is made girly for some reason I can't comprehand (I don't think they are girly, but I can see some people see this association), maybe it's because it's nice and soft and those things are consider girly? But again it isn't something that screams of traditional femininity. Further more the power itself is soap. Bubbles are a one way the character decided to use this power. Those devil fruits are all about creativity combining your natural assets, your earlier aquired skills and your personal ideas with their power. Have this fruit be given to different character outcome may had been different.
There is definitely a feminine image of women taking long, candlelit bubble baths possibly with incense. I don't know where it comes from. Anyway she has the "awa awa no mi" and "awa" means "bubble."