Nothing makes sense, but lord knows it's a magnificent ride.
Dragonball Discussion
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Ah, but Gohan and the rest were kept intact inside Buu as well. They were just shrunk down and wrapped in cocoons inside his head….or something.
What difference does that make? The entire android is still absorbed and inside his body. And now you're saying it's not a "full blown" absorption? Like, there are different levels of absorption? I'm pretty sure an absorption is just an absorption and Toriyama didn't intend for us to look any further into it than that.
So...what's the difference between just killing him and "utterly destroying" him and how did they accomplish the latter? I mean, doesn't killing him alone mean they have to destroy every single particle of his body? What can they do beyond that?
On a general note: Nothing makes sense post-Frieza, does it?
Well, unlike Cell, Buu is a magical being.
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What difference does that make?
One is technology, one is magic. That's the difference.
So…what's the difference between just killing him and "utterly destroying" him and how did they accomplish the latter? I mean, doesn't killing him alone mean they have to destroy every single particle of his body? What can they do beyond that?
Beats me, but it was the difference in the end, and he didn't just go into legless halo mode. They got him all at once in a single blast rather than piecemeal?
On a general note: Nothing makes sense post-Frieza, does it?
Especially if you start counting the stuff Toriyama allowed after, like Vegeta's brother or Super Saiyan Bardock.
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In this scenario it would be a vendetta so he would most likely go straight to SSJ3 then proceed to rape Kid Buu. Also I doubt Gohan or Gotenks would hold back or goof off when they have literally no reason to and their fathers are right there so they would want to make them proud and so would waste no time destroying Kid Buu
You mean the same "guy" who let Buu escape to another dimension where his friends and family were before deciding to use SSJ 3?
You mean the guy who still continued to dick around AFTER his family got eaten?
Yeah… Gotenks is not reliable what so ever.
I could understand bringing Gohan, after all.. Gohan getting absorbed isn't even HIS fault. Remember, Goku threw a SMALL earring to Gohan in a rocky plain full of crevices. (when he can move at the speed of instant.. fucking genius)
I still have no idea why Goku just had to throw that earring (or why he throws senzu beans either).
And Robby, I think Yamcha gets the most flack because he looks so smug and cool all the time. The loss to the Saibaman was probably the last straw (even though he technically won).
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She wasn't. She's named artificial human #18. Android #18 is what Viz and other companies chose to use instead of the weird "artificial human", but its very clear in the story that she is a cyborg.
There was even a title page on the manga explaining it (chapter 367):
http://uploads.dragonballencyclopedia.com/2/25/Android_A•B•C.png
Original japanese title page:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/Fox_969/Volume25230.png
Neat! I've never seen this before. This adresses my gripe completely, thank you.
@RobbyBevard:
If the gods could just undo Buu's damage, they would have. They would have pulled the kai out of him once he was sealed away. Or destroyed him utterly once he was frozen in place. They didn't. Eldest kai knew of the dragonballs. He didn't think it was something to do, even to weaken the god killing monster permanently and revive one of the four lords of the universe.
Elder Kaioshin was ancient, young Kaioshin had no idea who he was. He didn't take place in the original Buu batle, he had already been in the Sword for centureis by then.
And like you say yourself: wishing Shenlong to weaken the impossibly strong monster? not possible. But thats not the same as killing Buu, and then wishing absorbed people back.
I don't know if theres a term for this, but you're using a bit of circular logic here; "this thing cannot be possible! Why? Because then the characters would have done it!". We had the same issue in the Bleach thread a while back; "Obviously Yamamotos Bankai can't be stolen! Why? Because then it would have gotten stolen by now! Obviously the SS captains had good reasons for not using their bankais against Aizen! What reasons? I don't know but they must've had them, because they didn't do it!"
It removes a great deal of responsibility from the author when he doesn't have to validate or adress anything.@RobbyBevard:
Once Buu perma-fused with someone, they were stuck in him in a cacoon and no cosmic force could get them out.
Says who.
Even if this is painfully obvious, you'd think Goku or someone else would have brought it up. "If we kill buu with people absorbed, can we get them back?" "No". Then there would be no issue! But the topic was never raised.@RobbyBevard:
They hadn't worked up to that point, and they'd tried it about 97 different ways. Genki dama had more pure power and scale than anything else they'd tried. Had the energy of ALL the heroes combined, plus the citizens of the world, the plants, the animals, the sun, etc. It was far stronger than the planet breaking attacks that had been used up to that point and a united attack, that was the entire point.
Yes, great symbolism and all that. But if all it had to do was vaporize Buu to a certain degree, I see no reason why Gohan or Vejitto could whip out a giga-kamehameha, like the kind that vaporized cell. Neither one got around to doing one of those. Hell, they barely did Ki attacks at all. Gotenks was abut to do it, but then his fusion ended.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Cyan:
Nothing makes sense, but lord knows it's a magnificent ride.
Basically this.
(most of cell arc exempted) -
You mean the same "guy" who let Buu escape to another dimension where his friends and family were before deciding to use SSJ 3?
You mean the guy who still continued to dick around AFTER his family got eaten?
Yeah… Gotenks is not reliable what so ever.
To be fair to Gotenks in the manga he didn't dick around THAT MUCH after realising everyone got eaten. The closest he did to dicking around is when he was laughing when he punched Buu so hard from the lookout so hard that it looked like a meteor had impacted on the Earth. After that him and Buu fought equally for a bit, Gotenks got the upper hand and was about to finish him off but then the fusion wore off, for the vast majority of the fight when he was in SSJ3 he was dead serious (even endangering the Earth at one point). Here are the chapters:
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c009/1.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c010/1.html
(don't be expecting manga stream quality )I think he was doing a really good job and his fight against Super Buu is the best in the Buu saga imo.
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@The:
Basically this.
(most of cell arc exempted)Are you saying it wasn't a magnificent ride or that it made sense?
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@The:
Vejitto was only cocky because he wanted to goad Buu into absorbing him. Buu with no one absorbed? Instant obliteration. Why Vejitto didn't roast Buu and then just wish everyone back, Idunno.
isn't that is too cruel for a kid manga?
You guys are putting way more thought into explaining this than Toryirama ever did, and we just established how careless Toyirama was with his storytelling.
i agree with you. but when it come to DB, i never care about all of that.. on the cover of my country version of volume 1 where some mangaka like to put their comment, Toriyama already said that DB is just a simple nonsensical story.
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isn't that is too cruel for a kid manga?
If killing every single human on Earth wasn't too cruel, I don't imagine this would be.
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i mean, for a hero to kill his family and friend to save the world. isn't that to "heavy" and cruel for DB? death mean nothing in DB, but killing a family member or a friend or another good human being for geater good sound quite dark of a theme for DB. DB for me is much more simpler than that. it more white and black type of a story. direct good vs evil. good people save the world in a good way even if its stupid/ridiculous/unrealistic/bullshit.
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i mean, for a hero to kill his family and friend to save the world. isn't that to "heavy" and cruel for DB? death mean nothing in DB, but killing a family member or a friend or another good human being for geater good sound quite dark of a theme for DB. DB for me is much more simpler than that. it more white and black type of a story. direct good vs evil. good people save the world in a good way even if its stupid/ridiculous/unrealistic/bullshit.
Huh. That's an interesting point, actually, that I hadn't considered. Maybe Goku and Vegeta thought that, by killing Buu, they would, consequently, be killing their own sons (and Piccolo). Or maybe they just wanted to bring their sons back and saw an immediate solution to the problem.
Well, it's all speculation anyway since they never stated why they had to go in and rescue them.
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Huh. That's an interesting point, actually, that I hadn't considered. Maybe Goku and Vegeta thought that, by killing Buu, they would, consequently, be killing their own sons (and Piccolo). Or maybe they just wanted to bring their sons back and saw an immediate solution to the problem.
Well, it's all speculation anyway since they never stated why they had to go in and rescue them.
yeah.. agree with you. DB never trying to be deep or something like that. i think that is why many people still love it till today even with all that flaws.
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Are you saying it wasn't a magnificent ride or that it made sense?
Cell arc was a confusing, ad-libbed, nonengaging mess. The arc nor its villain have any real charm to it.
isn't that is too cruel for a kid manga?
"Hey Piccolo, its okay to shoot a laser through me to get the bad guy, just revive me later!"
Death was extremely inconsequential, especially once the second pair of dragonballs. Piccolo even tried distracting Buu by saying "theres loads of humans left! Why don't you go kill them?" because they could be revived later. -
@Cyan:
Nothing makes sense, but lord knows it's a magnificent ride.
This,a hundred million times this.
Dragon Ball works despite it's flaws,because it doesn't try to be deep nor does it boast to have a complex story.It's simply well written not in the sense of being technically well written,but in the sense that it makes the reader excited for more.
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@The:
Cell arc was a confusing, ad-libbed, nonengaging mess. The arc nor its villain have any real charm to it.
"Hey Piccolo, its okay to shoot a laser through me to get the bad guy, just revive me later!"yup. that's what i said. it was Goku who sacrificed himself. not him kill Piccolo to save the day.
Death was extremely consequential, especially once the second pair of dragonballs. Piccolo even tried distracting Buu by saying "theres loads of humans left! Why don't you go kill them?" because they could be revived later.
yeah, i forgot about that. but Piccolo is not really the type of hero like Goku. that guy is a former demon king. even after turn into a good guy like Vegeta, he still not kind hearted like Goku. for him to sacrifice other to save the day was not to far-fetch from his character.
its a different story when it come to Goku even though he fused with Vegeta at that time. for a kid, seeing Goku killed his family or friend to save the world was quite brutal. but this is DB we are talking about. and like Nobodyman said it just a fan speculation. its just something that pop up when i read "Instant obliteration. Why Vejitto didn't roast Buu and then just wish everyone back, Idunno.". not really trying to justify the story or whatever.
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Bear in mind Goku is probably the only character except perhaps Gohan who was pure good and remained so probably until the very end. How many other characters in the series would choose to give Piccolo, Vegeta and even Frieza another chance? He was hit by the devilbeam when a kid and did not have a DROP of evil in him, otherwise he would have died. I correct my above statement, if Kami was hit by the Devilbeam he might survive, considering King Piccolo was the physical and spiritual manifestation of his rejection of his own evil. I wish I could see manga based off the previous kami, who may have had to do the same to become kami.
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yeah, i forgot about that. but Piccolo is not really the type of hero like Goku. that guy is a former demon king. even after turn into a good guy like Vegeta, he still not kind hearted like Goku. for him to sacrifice other to save the day was not to far-fetch from his character.
Piccolo had fused with God though, in the Buu arc he was as mellow as can be.
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@The:
Piccolo had fused with God though, in the Buu arc he was as mellow as can be.
Yeah,I noticed that too,and I gotta say,I kinda preffered his older,cockier self.
The fact that he got slightly Yamcha'd in that arc doesn't help either.
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@The:
Piccolo had fused with God though, in the Buu arc he was as mellow as can be.
And what has that to do with actions commited by him at least 10 years before he reunited with Kami?
That attack was Piccolo going "aha! I can kill him now, this is my revenge Goku!!, also die Radz guy"
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The "mellow Piccolo" discussion was concerning his willingness to sacrifice humanity in order to distract Buu.
The point was good guys (Goku in the first example, Piccolo in the second) discarding lives as a means to an end because Dragonballs.
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@The:
The "mellow Piccolo" discussion was concerning his willingness to sacrifice humanity in order to distract Buu.
I don't think that "choice" should reflect on Piccolo's character because there was hardly a real choice. It was either having the kids face Buu as they were at that time (which Piccolo considered almost suicidal, and humanity would be destroyed without a chance of being brought back) or finding a way to convince Buu to give the kids more time, even if it meant convincing Buu to kill almost all of humanity and then revive all the people he killed after he was defeated.
The most, I think, that we can extrat from it is that, when faced with almost impossible choices, Piccolo will think about the greater good.
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Indeed. Which brings us to the top of this page: Dragonball is NOT a series where it is "too dark" to think of the greater good…and where toasting Buu, then reviving those absorbed, is hence a valid choice to make.
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Yes, when there's no other choice.
Dragon Ball has its share of dark moments but of course Dragon Ball isn't really meant for us to take this dark moments that seriously and think about all the implications and consequences (morally and otherwise).
They are there simply to build tension and make us think that "sh#t has hit the fan" and almost always there is something there to give us hope that everything will be alright. Most of the time its the Dragon Balls themselves that give us that hope.
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Didn't Viz start censoring their Dragon Ball volumes at one point?
I heard they were even taking out guns by the Buu arc. -
Didn't Viz start censoring their Dragon Ball volumes at one point?
I heard they were even taking out guns by the Buu arc.They censored some nudity in the early parts of the manga (like hiding Bulma's naked boobs behind some bath bubbles or a nicely drawn bra), they removed Mr. Popo big lips (making his mouth appear all black), they censored whenever a character flipped the bird at someone (making them have a closed fist or another finger extended), they removed future #17's gun from his hand when he shot a old man in his face (making it look like he killed him punching his face in), and they altered the gun of some criminals in the buu arc to make it look more futuristic and less realistic.
That's about it.
It sounds bad, but in 42 volumes of manga its hardly noticeable. I have them all and it doesn't bother me. Of course, I would rather have them uncensored, but what they changed is not what matters in Dragon Ball at all.
(Oh, btw, some old editions of Viz had even more censorship than that, but they aren't doing any more that this nowadays. And they dind't "start" censoring. It has always been censored. There hasn't been a full uncensored release yet).
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I'm still collecting Viz Bigs, and the little changes barely affect the whismical feeling of Dragonball itself. It' a bit odd the changed the guns that late in the series tho. Earlier volumes kept them… not that guns had much of an effect since martial arts overpowered them. And, it's not like I'm planning on getting the volumes after the Frieza saga ends.
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@Rareboy, yeah and sometimes censoring something doesn't work. Shooting someone in the face is still as bad as punching someone in the face to death. It's still killing them lol. I see what you mean though, the censors probably are trying to use the ill-effects of the mass media argument, presuming people are fundamentally stupid. It's a different sort of problem people have when they probably had the potential to do it anyway.
@Hiroy: some would argue the Frieza saga was Dragonball at its peak anyway.
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And, it's not like I'm planning on getting the volumes after the Frieza saga ends.
You should. At least I don't like having a collection close to being finished and not having it finished (there are only 5 Vizbigs after Freeza).
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shrugs In my copies of dragonball Bulma is still naked. No soap bubbles. They had unedited releases at one point.
Yaye for random nudity?
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@RobbyBevard:
shrugs In my copies of dragonball Bulma is still naked. No soap bubbles. They had unedited releases at one point.
Yaye for random nudity?
There were editions with less censorship in the past, but still censored. For example, if you look at your copy, you might see Bulma naked, but this middle left panel will always be censored (no nipples): http://www.batoto.net/read/_/69799/dragon-ball_v1_ch5_by_hao/12
Among other stuff, of course. That is just a quick example.
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Wasn't even aware that edit existed, its such a tiny non-deal.
Just as long as Goku's junk is still shown fully…?
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@Friend:
@Hiroy: some would argue the Frieza saga was Dragonball at its peak anyway.
I consider it the official ending.
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I did like Cell and Buu's sagas, but none of them had the buildup of Freezer's, and that one is eclipsed by Picoro's arc.
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I did like Sell and Booh's sagas, but none of them had the buildup of Freezer's, and that one is eclipsed by Picoro's arc.
Fixed .
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It would make more sense if it was Sell. Didn't Akira's editors bug the dude the continue in order to sell more Dragonball? Okay, that was on awful pun and I'm not sorry.
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Not really. Akira Toriyama intending to end the manga at the end of the Freeza arc is a myth and there is not a shred of evidence to support it (for more information -> http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/ ).
He did however wanted to have the artificial human saga with just #19 and #20. His editor didn't agree because he felt it was just a geezer and a weird fat guy, so Toriyama introduced #18 and #17 but then the editor said that they were just kids and Toriyama introduced Cell.
This is the reason why in the manga Trunks warns Goku of the danger posed by the artificial humans and he actually calls them by name, stating that they were named #19 and #20. This becomes incoherent later on when it turns out that those "artificial humans" were not the ones Trunks knew. In the anime they fixed this by not having Trunks name the artificial humans when he warns Goku.
In the Buu saga, his editor basically let him do whatever he wanted, which is why the saga is much more goofy and Toriyama-like.
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He did however wanted to have the artificial human saga with just #19 and #20. His editor didn't agree because he felt it was just a geezer and a weird fat guy, so Toriyama introduced #18 and #17 but then the editor said that they were just kids and Toriyama introduced Cell.
Wasn't it a former editor (or two former editors) who said they weren't fond of the androids? As in, they didn't really have any power over him and Toriyama just took their advice.
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He did however wanted to have the artificial human saga with just #19 and #20. His editor didn't agree because he felt it was just a geezer and a weird fat guy
That editor needs to be retroactively punched in the dick
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Krillin got his wife and child thanks to an editor/ex-editor finding Dr. Robotnik and Clown Man boring.
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@Cyan:
Krillin got his wife and child thanks to an editor/ex-editor finding Dr. Robotnik and Clown Man boring.
Actually, I think that's how Dr. Robotnik was made, by fusing those two together.
And I like the Cell saga. For me, that's when the series ended.
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I've been watching the cell/android saga again. I'm wondering; cell went back in time to absorb the androids. There were androids in his time line too. why did he go back in time. The only thing I could think of, is trunks stated that the"past" time line androids are stronger than the ones in his timeline, but cell never states that.
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I've been watching the cell/android saga again. I'm wondering; cell went back in time to absorb the androids. There were androids in his time line too. why did he go back in time. The only thing I could think of, is trunks stated that the"past" time line androids are stronger than the ones in his timeline, but cell never states that.
I think the Trunks from Cell's timeline managed to kill the androids, thus why he had to go back in time.
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In Cell's timeline Trunks brought back a deactivation remote made by Bulma(same kind Krillin was supposed to use but smashed in the timeline the comic covers) in order to shut off 17 & 18.
Since that particular Trunks never trained in the Room of Spirit and Time it resulted in him being weak enough to be killed by Imperfect Cell later on.
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I've been watching the cell/android saga again. I'm wondering; cell went back in time to absorb the androids. There were androids in his time line too. why did he go back in time. The only thing I could think of, is trunks stated that the"past" time line androids are stronger than the ones in his timeline, but cell never states that.
It gets twisty and convoluted, but basically Cell had a hibernation phase while he developed, and he wakes up AFTER Trunks had destroyed the androids. The tricky bit is Trunks time traveled two different times, and Cell interupted one of those in a branching path, and ended up with four different timelines.
It mostly gets tricky because there were three different Cells, (possibly four) and three sets of 17 and 18, (possibly four) and three diverging points for Trunks, and we never saw one of the futures at all it was just mentioned… but mostly the Cell we care about wakes up after the androids are destroyed.
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_Timeline -
Not really. Akira Toriyama intending to end the manga at the end of the Freeza arc is a myth and there is not a shred of evidence to support it (for more information -> http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/ ).
He did however wanted to have the artificial human saga with just #19 and #20. His editor didn't agree because he felt it was just a geezer and a weird fat guy, so Toriyama introduced #18 and #17 but then the editor said that they were just kids and Toriyama introduced Cell.
What's funny is the editor was still not satisfied with Cell first and second transformation. I think Toriyama said he had other plans for Cell second transformation, I wished I knew what he intended to do, but he probably forgot about it a long time ago, lol.
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He did however wanted to have the artificial human saga with just #19 and #20. His editor didn't agree because he felt it was just a geezer and a weird fat guy, so Toriyama introduced #18 and #17 but then the editor said that they were just kids and Toriyama introduced Cell.
This man should be given an award. Think about it after the epicness that was the Frieza saga wih Goku turning SSJ the last oponents in the series look like they would be too much of an embarresment to lose to. I'm glad Toriyama decided to include cell etc
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What's funny is the editor was still not satisfied with Cell first and second transformation. I think Toriyama said he had other plans for Cell second transformation, I wished I knew what he intended to do, but he probably forgot about it a long time ago, lol.
Toriyama liked Cell's second form the best and he didn't intend to have Cell achieve his final form. He only did because his editor also didn't like Cell in his second form. Anyway, the way Cell achieved his final/perfect form, with Vegeta letting him, can probably be traced back to Toriyama having to change what he was going for.
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Even reading it the first time, I knew that the timelines of the Cell arc made no sense.
Trunks goes back from a timeline where 17 and 18 have killed everyone. No one knows of Cell, so he survives to be killed by Trunks later. Trunks warns the cast of the androids.
In the main timeline however: 19 and 20 show up. These apparently did not exist in Trunks timeline. Reason for this? Unknown.Later, 17 and 18 show up, and Trunks remarks that they’re wayyyyy stronger than is his timeline. Reason for this? Unknown.
Then, Cell shows up from a timeline where Trunks got the deactivation device in time and shut off the Cyborgs. Where did THIS timeline come from? So far, theres the “first” timeline where everything went south, and Trunks went back to warn/get trained, and the “second”, main timeline which is the altered past that Trunks created. This third, Cell-producing timeline has no origin. -
I always assumed that 17 and 18 killed Gero and Clown Man much earlier in the Future Trunks timeline.
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Wasn't it stated that Toriyama was forced to come up with Cell mid-arc? Like he started with 19 and 20 but the editor said he wanted a younger enemy. He did 17 and 18 but the editor didn't like them because they looked too young and human. Then he made Cell. That would explain the inconsistency of the timelines.