We've discussed similar thing here at AP forum, but it's still interesting to read more people's opinion: http://www.manganews.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1588
Any new thoughts?
We've discussed similar thing here at AP forum, but it's still interesting to read more people's opinion: http://www.manganews.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1588
Any new thoughts?
A few thoughts:
"W00T it's gonna be licenced" isn't going to make a real difference in the lives of the readers (and scanlators) who are deep into series. I don't particularly want to buy Volume 1 of a series I've already read the first ten or more volumes of online. You can't show me anything new, and it's comical to expect fans to say "Okay, we've seen up to the first 150 chapters, so now it's licensed, so we'll have to wait five to ten years for the licenced version to reach 151?
It would also be nice to see some attempts to ensure the scanlations and the licensed versions are compatible. An excellent example would be Death Note: No matter what the manga-ka might say, the people who joined in Scanlation Land will forever know the lead as Raito. It's also why you can't pull the wool over our eyes with Zolo and Chaser. Now fair enough if your translation is solid and legitimate (I doubt the MSN group OP translation is reliable at the Arlong arc at least), but if it's toss-ups, go with the side the fandom has taken.
Overtly, all publishing companies must take a stance against scanslations and fansubbing because of legality, but in reality such companies send agents into the internet underworlds to keep tabs on such fan translated material. It's a good indication of what people are interested in.
Furthermore, scanslations help open the door by offering a free, easily accessed introduction to the world of manga; chances are, if a person gets hooked on a single online manga, that person will be fully enchanted by the medium. Most of the people here read or have read much more than One Piece, no? Posting theories and topics in OP Manga, discussing the 4Kids dub in the Anime, and just poking humor at OP in General (the forum) only goes so far; eventually, people will gravitate toward this forum (Other Manga/Anime) and further pursue interested material.
Problems occur when people simply refuse to purchase the licesnsed material; afterall, since only a portion of the Western markets consist of people whom are internet savvy enough to find scanslations, it's unlikely that those people would go and purchase the translated tankobans; afterall, although scanslators and fansubbers lack direct access to the original manga authors (or Anime studio), they are not driven primarily by money and are free to interpret or adapt a translation into an enjoyable (not necessarily understandable) read.
This "problem" is misleading, though; we online readers are potential customers. We may not purchase manga tankobans right now, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of purchasing them in the future. Hence, though companies complain loudly of declining sales due to scanslations, they're ignoring the long run profits; what they want is to rake in as much as possible, hence, forcing online readers to buy their volumes at a premium price to maximize total revenue. That's just greedy, really; Viz probably spends less than a penny to make each OP tanko, but sells through limited (about two) middlemen to $7.00? That's at least 700% gross revenue; materials for the book are cheap, so even assuming translation and materials, promotion and production per capita (of the novel) comes to $4.00, that's still a $3.00 profit per book. In all likelihood, $4.00 production is an enomusly overinflated value.
I see scanslations as a community service basically as they allow us access to the most recent issues of a series in a format that does not wholly replace buying the translated print edition when it is released.
On the other hand, people should not scanslate titles for the explicit purpose of encouraging people to not buy the translated editions.
It's not legal and never will be, but there should be (and is) a standard of ethics within the scanslation community.
No matter what the manga-ka might say, the people who joined in Scanlation Land will forever know the lead as Raito.
Do what?
The translators have no obligation whatsoever to uphold scanslations traditions especially if those directly contradict the will of the author him/herself.
Mr. 2 for instance. It doesn't matter how many people use Bon Clay or some variant thereof or how long they have used it. Oda clearly used Bon Kurei, which makes Bon Clay wrong.
The minute anybody directly contradicts statements from the artist/writer himself, they're wrong. It's one thing to point out a plot hole or a contradictory statement, but it's something else entirely to say that a scanslation trumps the actual creator of the manga's wishes.
It's also why you can't pull the wool over our eyes with Zolo and Chaser.
We haven't seen what Viz is going to do with Smoker yet, but Zolo is clearly something that was decided by Shueisha itself and not Viz. Smoker may be altered or he may not be, there's no way to say either way for a few more weeks.
but if it's toss-ups, go with the side the fandom has taken.
Fandom is not necessarily correct though and may be dead wrong in certain instances. The more I see of Mihawk, the more I think that Dracule was Oda's intent and that Juraquille is inaccurate.
That's just greedy, really; Viz probably spends less than a penny to make each OP tanko, but sells through limited (about two) middlemen to $7.00?
That's at least 700% gross revenue; materials for the book are cheap, so even assuming translation and materials, promotion and production per capita (of the novel) comes to $4.00, that's still a $3.00 profit per book. In all likelihood, $4.00 production is an enomusly overinflated value.
A penny… per 200 page book. A penny.
Why, oh, why isn't there a bleeding eyes emoticon?
Publishing costs are related to volume; the more books published, the cheaper the per book cost. Even then, manga is going to be more expensive than a regular book simply because it uses so much toner by comparison. Words are cheaper to print than artwork. To have them only cost a penny each would almost certainly require that Viz be producing One Piece volumes in numbers that dwarf the tanko sales.
Considering that Kingdom Hearts sells for $3.94 at Wal-Mart, that is probably about the absolute minimum cost that manga can be sold for and make a profit. Not that they're necessarily making a profit on it, quite a few companies actually lose money on a per item basis that they're selling through Wal-Mart in order to make it up by sheer bulk.
One thing I have to say about scans…
Theres some manga series I faithfully buy....that I wouldn't have if I hadn't read them first online.
I am a pirate. There is no if and or but about it. There is one way that i support manga, or at least japanese manga (as opposed to the translated version released by viz, among others). While i was in japan and while i live in the states, i avidly purchase the original tanks from the local bookstore. In fact, I have purchased nearly all of the third series of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and i plan to completely purchase that and series 04, eventually. I do that rather than buy the translations because they are cheaper, quite frankly, and it helps my japanese.
The standard of ethics thing in the scanlation community is bullshit. If they (including myself) wanted to follow some kind of ethical compass then they would never scanlate in the first place or they would seek the permission of the artist (as likely as that seems) and give him or her compansation. The entire scanlation community is completely illegal and i dont believe there is a grey area about this subject.
@gilrules2000:
I do that rather than buy the translations because they are cheaper, quite frankly, and it helps my japanese.
…
The entire scanlation community is completely illegal and i dont believe there is a grey area about this subject.
Guess what?
When people are granted a copyright, they gain control of several things, including, but not limited to:
the right to produce creation of derivative works (the only legal text translations are those produced by the copyright holder)
the right to sell and produce copies of the copyrighted works.
Hey, guess what falls under the category of selling copies of that copyrighted work?
Why, imported and exported versions of that product. Imagine that.
For the most part, original Japanese versions of a particular work do not represent a threat to Viz simply because sales are so small in comparison, so they don't really care if people buy things through the Gray Market. On the other hand, if they feel that imported versions of the manga are threatening their trademark, then they have the legal recourse to force importers to remove such goods from stock. The sale of material already trademarked for release in a region by another company is not legal, otherwise there's no point to Viz paying for the exclusive rights to publish One Piece in the first place.
At best, importing One Piece is in a gray area ethically, same as scanslations as they are both violations of the copyright granted to Viz by Shueisha. Not to mention that, if Shueisha wanted you to buy the Japanese version of a comic, then they wouldn't have granted the English language license to Viz in the first place. Buying the original Japanese version if you do not live in Japan is contrary to the wishes of Oda's own publishers.
I see scanslations as a community service basically as they allow us access to the most recent issues of a series in a format that does not wholly replace buying the translated print edition when it is released.
On the other hand, people should not scanslate titles for the explicit purpose of encouraging people to not buy the translated editions.
It's not legal and never will be, but there should be (and is) a standard of ethics within the scanslation community.
Do what?
The translators have no obligation whatsoever to uphold scanslations traditions especially if those directly contradict the will of the author him/herself.
Mr. 2 for instance. It doesn't matter how many people use Bon Clay or some variant thereof or how long they have used it. Oda clearly used Bon Kurei, which makes Bon Clay wrong.
The minute anybody directly contradicts statements from the artist/writer himself, they're wrong. It's one thing to point out a plot hole or a contradictory statement, but it's something else entirely to say that a scanslation trumps the actual creator of the manga's wishes.
We haven't seen what Viz is going to do with Smoker yet, but Zolo is clearly something that was decided by Shueisha itself and not Viz. Smoker may be altered or he may not be, there's no way to say either way for a few more weeks.
Fandom is not necessarily correct though and may be dead wrong in certain instances. The more I see of Mihawk, the more I think that Dracule was Oda's intent and that Juraquille is inaccurate.
A penny… per 200 page book. A penny.
Why, oh, why isn't there a bleeding eyes emoticon?
Publishing costs are related to volume; the more books published, the cheaper the per book cost. Even then, manga is going to be more expensive than a regular book simply because it uses so much toner by comparison. Words are cheaper to print than artwork. To have them only cost a penny each would almost certainly require that Viz be producing One Piece volumes in numbers that dwarf the tanko sales.
Considering that Kingdom Hearts sells for $3.94 at Wal-Mart, that is probably about the absolute minimum cost that manga can be sold for and make a profit. Not that they're necessarily making a profit on it, quite a few companies actually lose money on a per item basis that they're selling through Wal-Mart in order to make it up by sheer bulk.
You rock my socks, Ubiq. :biggrin:
But yes, one of the main reasons that english version manga costs more is a simple one: it's printed on higher-quality paper with higher-quality covers. My mom pointed this out to me. Japanese tanks may be cheaper (and I love them dearly), but the paper they're printed on will yellow out a lot faster than the english ones. In other words, you may pay more, but it'll last longer.
The covers in particular are a lot more "dressed up" than the tanks. When I compared the first volume cover of OP to the Japanese tankoubon, I was like, "holy crap this is some fancy stuff!"
Mr. 2 for instance. It doesn't matter how many people use Bon Clay or some variant thereof or how long they have used it. Oda clearly used Bon Kurei, which makes Bon Clay wrong.
But it's such a universal romanization now, no doubt from scanlations and fansubs, that it has become the de facto spelling. Even if it's right, it wouldn't be what we have grown to expect. I sort of like the sound of Bon Kurei, but everywhere it's in circulation, from scanlations to dubbed Grand Battle, to the freaking OP-character-named computers on my network, it's Bon Clay.
We haven't seen what Viz is going to do with Smoker yet, but Zolo is clearly something that was decided by Shueisha itself and not Viz. Smoker may be altered or he may not be, there's no way to say either way for a few more weeks.
Okay, point given, I was using it as an example of something where we know the correct name through scanlations, and they've tried to slip us a fake name (in the dub at least)
Fandom is not necessarily correct though and may be dead wrong in certain instances. The more I see of Mihawk, the more I think that Dracule was Oda's intent and that Juraquille is inaccurate.
One nice thing about the fandom is that it can correct its mistakes a lot more easily. I think Juraquille has all but become obsolete, argued to death, and the old scanlations can be alterred and resubmitted a lot easier than reprinting 50,000 tankos
Considering that Kingdom Hearts sells for $3.94 at Wal-Mart, that is probably about the absolute minimum cost that manga can be sold for and make a profit. Not that they're necessarily making a profit on it, quite a few companies actually lose money on a per item basis that they're selling through Wal-Mart in order to make it up by sheer bulk.
Well, there are options:
Lower-quality tankos, a la Japan.
Tweaking the format to lower production costs. If you put four pages, each slightly smaller than a tanko page, on an 8.5x11 sheet, you could make a 48-page paperback magazine "tanko-equivalent" which might be cheaper to bind and ship.
Hey, guess what falls under the category of selling copies of that copyrighted work?
Why, imported and exported versions of that product. Imagine that.
Well, there are actual legal issues about that. I know in American copyright philosophy, there's the "doctrine of first sale". Basically, they have no jurisdiction of what you do with the work once you buy it, outside of making copies. That's why second-hand bookshops and recordshops stay in business. I'm not sure if that applies to selling across borders, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
I actually have a big issue about. Scanlations are okay, and in my opinion those who bitch about the fact that something is licenced and that certain project is dropped and they can't deal with it really makes me angry. Okay for anime and manga if something gets licenced It is perfectly resonable to be sad or angry or to be upset over the fact that you can't get it scanlated is okay, only in the sense that you get over it, and that you know that what they did is okay. People who linger over this, just really annoy me. I for a fact no that dling anime and manga off the internet is illeagal, so I feel that it's my obligation that I delete it or at least purchase it when it gets on to DVDs. I mean I read one piece and I buy SJ magazines, in fact I like comparing it to fan based translations, that's how I deal with it morally. For me it really doesn't matter if I can never get raw or scanlated or w/e one piece off the internet, because I know where to find it legally
I mean theirs amazon and eBay of course. I think I'm lucky cause there's a place at my local mall that imports One Piece manga/anime legally from Japan, and I try to buy that every now and then. I really don't see what exactly is the problem. I mean even you don't want to buy this and you still do want to get it for free, you can just try looking for it off the net. I mean come on if it has been scanlated, there has to be a site where you can get the raws, so you shouldnt even bitch about something like
and to those who say "Oh cant read japanese" then nuts to you. I mean come on get off your lazy asses and learn japanese, there are even more resources for you to learn another language. I'm currently trying to learn japanese and I'm only 15. I like watching anime. I didn't like when Naruto got licenced, but I know a place that can get the DVDs for Naruto, and I don't really care if it's bootleged or legal, because I like Naruto and I like watching it and I think it's a shame that I have to wait so long for the dubbs to catch up. I know it's selfish, but if for whatever reason if DB drops the project and or if Saiyaman/133t raws stop showing it I'll mourn, I'll get angry, but I'll deal with and not linger on stuff like that.
I mean lots of anime that like has been stopped and can't find it, like the Shaman King manga. I was glad when I heard manga-rain started scanlating it, but I was so sad when I found out it was licenced. I really couldnt find the raws, nor the translations anymore, but I dealed with it.
\
Japanese tanks may be cheaper (and I love them dearly), but the paper they're printed on will yellow out a lot faster than the english ones. In other words, you may pay more, but it'll last longer.
I've seen a handful of them in used book stores and have never once been impressed by the quality, both of the paper or the ink, especially when I compare to them to volumes put out by any of the translation companies.
I sort of like the sound of Bon Kurei, but everywhere it's in circulation, from scanlations to dubbed Grand Battle, to the freaking OP-character-named computers on my network, it's Bon Clay.
All of which is very nice, but patently irrelevant as Oda's preferred English spelling trumps everything else. If he comes out with another Wanted poster that has Bon Clay on it, then there may be an argument for it. But, as is, it's Bon Kurei in English.
Some things are more nebulous; the whole Navy-Marines issue for instance where either side can back up their arguments. Certain names though, not so much. I know it's only one example of his written name, but Engrish would most likely render it Bon Cray rather than Bon Kurei. So it's not like Loguetown versus Roguetown.
Okay, point given, I was using it as an example of something where we know the correct name through scanlations, and they've tried to slip us a fake name (in the dub at least)
Trace is an egregious examples of that situation, but the scanslations are not the only way that we would have known how Ace is spelled. Smoker is admittedly different.
One nice thing about the fandom is that it can correct its mistakes a lot more easily. I think Juraquille has all but become obsolete, argued to death, and the old scanlations can be alterred and resubmitted a lot easier than reprinting 50,000 tankos
Yes, but the willingness to correct said mistakes is something else entirely, especially if people have their minds set on a particular translation of a name.
Well, there are options:
Lower-quality tankos, a la Japan.
To which, I respond with a question: why would you ever deliberately want lesser quality when it comes to anything?
Tweaking the format to lower production costs. If you put four pages, each slightly smaller than a tanko page, on an 8.5x11 sheet, you could make a 48-page paperback magazine "tanko-equivalent" which might be cheaper to bind and ship.
Well, again, that comes at the expense of a reduction in quality.
The current SJ volumes are seven and a half inches by five inches. To fit four of them on a 8.5 by 11 page (though I admit that I don't know why they'd use that when they're bound to use a size designed for just this sort of thing) without distorting the image makes the new size five and a half inches by three and two thirds inches (don't forget that dropping the size in height must also be accompanied by a proportional drop in width). Now, my math skills are rusty, but if I'm right, that's over a fifty percent drop in surface area to print on. If you have a volume handy, look at it and imagine it fifty percent smaller. How does the artwork look in that situation?
Well, there are actual legal issues about that. I know in American copyright philosophy, there's the "doctrine of first sale". Basically, they have no jurisdiction of what you do with the work once you buy it, outside of making copies. That's why second-hand bookshops and recordshops stay in business. I'm not sure if that applies to selling across borders, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
Are importers dealing in strictly resold material or are they operating as an intermediary for new items?
Was this resold material acquired for the strict purpose of dealing it in bulk?
Is this resold material detracting from the market value of the trademark currently held by Viz? Or, by selling these tanko, is [IMPORTER A] participating in unfair business practices by undercutting the legally registered supplier of that product?
Copyright law is often based as much on "how much" rather than strict definitions of violations. Doing something to a certain extent may not violate laws, but knowing when or where you cross that line can sometimes be an iffy proposition at best.
It's not fair use as it's not for education, critical, or for purpose of parody plus the fact that it's clearly for profit.
Ultimately the situation is this:
Viz acquired a license from Shueisha to translate, market, and distribute One Piece in the United States. Viz and Viz alone has the legal right to distribute One Piece within those domains. If they decide that they don't like importers bringing in Japanese translations, then they are perfectly within their rights as holders of the One Piece trademark and copyright to request that the importers remove One Piece from their stocks or face legal action.
If importers try to argue the point (which is probably unlikely), then they can go to court where the most likely result will be that Viz's copyright claim is upheld. They still have to remove the merchandise, but lose the legal funds in the process and maybe punative damages of some sort on top of all that.
There's simply no way around the fact that Viz is the licensed distributor of One Piece in this country. If they cannot protect their claim to such, then what's the point of having copyright law in the first place?
Tankos, low quality?
Y'know I actually think its really pretty Bs.
Yes they have lower quality paper… but the binding is BETTER than most american volumes.
And they actually have a nice book jacket with full color author commentary.