@Zp1:
Equating infinitely reproducible digital data to finite fixed physical product is the height of idiocy.
The means to get acess to the digital data, however, are finite.
@Zp1:
Equating infinitely reproducible digital data to finite fixed physical product is the height of idiocy.
The means to get acess to the digital data, however, are finite.
"How dare you not provide me enough incentive to not steal things!!!!!!!!!!!!! VIZ can do bankrupt for all I care selling a service at a loss in a vain attempt to encourage people to not get their entertainment for a five-finger discount!!!! What? Other people worked and slaved to make something which I enjoy for FREE? So what?! I worked hard to find that online reader! I am just as entitled to their work as the japanese fans who pay for it are! The nerve of these license holders and corporations with their legitimate claims of 'ownership!'"
Etcetera.
You're right. The industry isn't moving towards providing core products for free. That's why all of the following has failed: Hulu, music releases on YouTube, free to play MMO's and facebook games, online webcomics, and Funimations streaming One Piece episodes have all been abysmal failures.
Oh wait - they haven't. Most of the above have been enormously successful due to well laid business plans that account for the consumer not paying for the core product. But hey, if you want to continue wallowing in ignorance I suppose that's your perogative.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
On a side note, people in the future will probably look at piracy and the pressure it put on conventional business models as a form of Schumpeter's creative destruction (Middle of the page here to the uninformed:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction.). Literally, the process of new businesses coming up due to market demands or pressures causes old business models to fail, and often times causes entire businesses to fail.
There's about zero reason to feel sorry for VIZ as a company if they fail to adapt to the current demands of the market. If they die as a company due to mismanagement, it'll simply result in a new company coming along and picking up the US rights to JUMP works. The new company would then go on to recognize what caused VIZ's failures, and proceed to create a business model that could survive where the old models could not (as in, a model in where core content is free.)
Actually, whatever new business comes along is going to be entirely hamstrung by the same thing keeping Viz in a headlock: Japanese publishers who have no idea how to change their business model and no desire to do so.
@Zp1:
You're right. The industry isn't moving towards providing core products for free. That's why all of the following has failed: Hulu, music releases on YouTube, free to play MMO's and facebook games, online webcomics, and Funimations streaming One Piece episodes have all been abysmal failures.
Let's wait and see if WSJ Alpha starts putting up ad banners. It's tough to make money back on banner ads from what I heard and while I don't think it's a bad idea for VIZ to use those it makes sense to make you pay for it.
And yeah stephen hit the nail on the head, I think a lot of people are forgetting or don't realize that fact.
I guess the real question is whether most of the americans who were using mangastream will start paying for shonen jump alpha instead of waiting for an alternative. I for one will keep shamelessly reading the free stuff. Well if the podcast sermons can change my mind, I might pay but probably not.
Saw this coming, but it's a blow none the less. Viz is going to have to realize they need to do what Funimation did with the anime and stream it the moment it is released. Doing that got rid of fansubs for the show, so do it for the manga.
and they aren't stopping at mangastream.
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?p=42079689#post42079689
If that's the case, then why are all of those manga still on Manga Reader's site? Plus, there's nothing on the twitter that's linked to in that post which indicates that Manga Reader is removing those particular series.
and they aren't stopping at mangastream.
http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?p=42079689#post42079689
It's fake. The OP that made that was trolling. That message is way to long for a twitter post.
It's fake. The OP that made that was trolling. That message is way to long for a twitter post.
Something unreliable coming from Narutoforums? What are the odds?
Viz attacks again: http://www.redhawkscans.com/showthread.php?4677-DMCA-Notice-of-Copyright-Infringement-Beelzebub-amp-Bakuman
Okay, Bakuman, I get - it's part of Shonen Jump Alpha, after all. But Beelzebub? It's not even licensed by Viz!
Though from what I read in the Bakuman thread, they can still scanlate the chapters - they just can't host those chapters on their website.
Okay, Bakuman, I get - it's part of Shonen Jump Alpha, after all. But Beelzebub? It's not even licensed by Viz!
Thing is VIZ is owned by Shueisha so they might be doing it on their behalf. Also maybe VIZ plans to license it.
@Zp1:
Most of the above have been enormously successful due to well laid business plans that account for the consumer not paying for the core product.
YouTube isn't profitable. Google it, I bring that example up every time an online manga discussion happens because it's as mainstream a site as possible and Google still hasn't figured out how to make money off of it.
That isn't to say I disagree with you. I've been saying for years that manga serves as little more that commercials for merchandise. taboo and Robby have said people treat manga like webcomics…and how do most webcomics make money? 4Kids was founded on merchandise sales! The main hurdle is merchandise isn't easily accessed in R1 and when it is obtainable, it is extremely expensive. If someone found a way to import high volume Japanese products, cheaply, we might see something happen.
The downside is only really big, popular series get tons of associated merchandise. This works for One Piece, but not obscure stuff, so even if merchandise sales were good enough to pay for additional manga to be scanslated, those manga would have no way of generating profit by themselves.
@Zp1:
There's about zero reason to feel sorry for VIZ as a company if they fail to adapt to the current demands of the market. If they die as a company due to mismanagement, it'll simply result in a new company coming along and picking up the US rights to JUMP works. The new company would then go on to recognize what caused VIZ's failures, and proceed to create a business model that could survive where the old models could not (as in, a model in where core content is free.)
But what of VIZ's loyal customers, who want to 'reward' the company for bearing risk and bringing over Bleach???
Thing is VIZ is owned by Shueisha so they might be doing it on their behalf. Also maybe VIZ plans to license it.
I think they might be considering licensing it since they didn't request a takedown of magico or Harisugawa in Mirror World (Although that's pretty much over…) while Red Hawk Scans/NEO does those too. Or magico will end soon too. And I would hate that, so I'm not thinking about that.
Okay, Bakuman, I get - it's part of Shonen Jump Alpha, after all. But Beelzebub? It's not even licensed by Viz!
Though from what I read in the Bakuman thread, they can still scanlate the chapters - they just can't host those chapters on their website.
They said in their post that it was a copyright infringement from shueisha.
F…. Viz media. F.... them up their stupid asses.
Soooo I guess everyone's gonna go back to IRC channels soon?
Just like the old days.
Nooo, not Beelzebub D:
Oh, nevermind.
I think what Viz did was justified, and I don't see why everyone is making such a huge fuss about this. Can't the scanlation group that did Mangastream's stuff go underground? Can't they just host their stuff in a different country where they're not likely to be shut down? Even if not, One Piece is so popular that it's a given that another group is going to pop up. Even if it won't be for another few weeks.
Now I'm going to be honest here and say that I'm not going to pay for Alpha, nor do I have any intentions of doing so in the future. The fact that they're behind is strike number one for obvious reasons. I understand they won't be able to bring it out a week before actual Japanese release, but if Funimation can take just a few hours to translate the anime why can't Viz do it?
Name changes and censorship is strike two. I don't care if people think it's petty, but "Zolo" really annoys me. People have different tolerance levels, and after 6 years or more of reading, watching, re-reading and re-watching One Piece and knowing the character that happens to be my favorite Strawhat as "Zoro," asking me to settle with it at the same as asking me to pay for the product is pretty unrealistic from a marketing standpoint. Same thing goes for the censorship, the fear of offending people and having to edit stuff out is pretty much what defined 4Kids as a company, and we all know how that went. If they changed the references to god in Skypiea, and edited the stuff related to the Okamas, how will I know that I won't be missing out on original context in the future? They've done it before which means there's a chance it'll happen again. If I run the risk of enjoying the manga less, even if by a fraction, then I'm not interested.
Then there's the issue of having to pay, which is strike three. While I have no problem with paying itself, One Piece is the only manga I read and have any intentions of reading. Why should I have to pay for all if the only manga I want access to is one of several series? I hate Naruto and Bleach and stopped reading them for a good reason, and the thought of supporting either author makes me want to gag.
I've also bought several Viz volumes, and I've spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on One Piece merchandize and have plans to spend more. Just in things I've preordered or plan to preorder in this year it adds up to about $800. I already feel like I support Oda enough to not feel guilty when reading scanlations.
I'll be one of the many people looking to the scanlations come the next chapter, and that's just reality. Sorry Viz.
I think what Viz did was justified, and I don't see why everyone is making such a huge fuss about this. Can't the scanlation group that did Mangastream's stuff go underground? Can't they just host their stuff in a different country where they're not likely to be shut down? Even if not, One Piece is so popular that it's a given that another group is going to pop up. Even if it won't be for another few weeks.
Now I'm going to be honest here and say that I'm not going to pay for Alpha, nor do I have any intentions of doing so in the future. The fact that they're behind is strike number one for obvious reasons. I understand they won't be able to bring it out a week before actual Japanese release, but if Funimation can take just a few hours to translate the anime why can't Viz do it?
Name changes and censorship is strike two. I don't care if people think it's petty, but "Zolo" really annoys me. People have different tolerance levels, and after 6 years or more of reading, watching, re-reading and re-watching One Piece and knowing the character that happens to be my favorite Strawhat as "Zoro," asking me to settle with it at the same as asking me to pay for the product is pretty unrealistic from a marketing standpoint. Same thing goes for the censorship, the fear of offending people and having to edit stuff out is pretty much what defined 4Kids as a company, and we all know how that went. If they changed the references to god in Skypiea, and edited the stuff related to the Okamas, how will I know that I won't be missing out on original context in the future? They've done it before which means there's a chance it'll happen again. If I run the risk of enjoying the manga less, even if by a fraction, then I'm not interested.
Then there's the issue of having to pay, which is strike three. While I have no problem with paying itself, One Piece is the only manga I read and have any intentions of reading. Why should I have to pay for all if the only manga I want access to is one of several series? I hate Naruto and Bleach and stopped reading them for a good reason, and the thought of supporting either author makes me want to gag.
I've also bought several Viz volumes, and I've spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars on One Piece merchandize and have plans to spend more. Just in things I've preordered or plan to preorder in this year it adds up to about $800. I already feel like I support Oda enough to not feel guilty when reading scanlations.
I'll be one of the many people looking to the scanlations come the next chapter, and that's just reality. Sorry Viz.
I'm glad that you were able to give legitimate criticism while being polite and rational. I'm actually happy to see somebody articulate their criticism so nicely during this whole issue!
I understand why you don't want to see "Zolo", I mean none of us do. But like you said, some people can tolerate it, others can't. I'm curious, hypothetically, if Alpha did get the manga released the same day as Japan, would you tolerate this?
As for the other things you mentioned, lately the Viz translations have been pretty good. While they do censor certain aspects of dialogue, it is nothing unreasonable. At least it doesn't contain the pirate-speak present in the early volumes!
As for having to buy the whole bundle of series instead of one you prefer, think about the whole reason behind Alpha. The Shonen Jump Magazine was simply not doing as well as needed. Going digital is their solution to maintain this. In the eyes of the fans that are switching from scanlations to Alpha(such as myself), what needs to be kept in mind is that this is moving the magazine online. Let's say somebody who didn't read scanlations, and only followed the monthly magazine now buys it. This feels completely natural to them, they are paying money for a magazine of manga, but digitally!
I do agree that Viz does need to work out some of the kinks, but moving from a paper magazine to a full digital format is going to be a work-in progress. I do agree, that it would be nice to be able to buy ONLY certain manga, however to be perfectly honest, I think 99 cents an issue is a great deal, even if it's more manga than you may want. I don't see them giving out One Piece for about 15 cents an issue.
I do have some complaints of my own on the technical side. After zooming in, the page won't always move when holding the right-click button on the mouse and moving it. Sometimes it simply won't move until I try it six or seven times. My other main complaint is the IOS App for Vizmanga. It hasn't updated since the first issue of Alpha, and even then it is even titled wrong! It calls it a preview.
Hmm, so much going on in this thread. First, being American I feel it's my duty to support SJA. No, it's not perfect and there are improvements to be made still, but it's getting there. I feel like they've hired the best OP translator in the business (stephen), for example, and the quality is excellent. The translations and scan quality are both far superior to mangastream, and it's not hard for me to get past a Zolo or two. The fact that I have to pay isn't a big deal for me, since I enjoy the product and the cost is minimal. I'm happy to support the official backing of some of my favorite manga like OP and Bakuman in the US. The wait is unfortunate, but detaching myself from the situation and looking at it from afar I realize that 2 weeks to offer a comic internationally isn't all that bad. It just looks bad because of scanlations. I hope it will get better, but it's not as if the scanlations will die so it doesn't really bother me that much if it doesn't. I'm not going to chastise other people for choosing not to support it, as everyone has their reasons, but I feel good to do so myself.
On the mangastream side, I'm honestly surprised this didn't happen sooner. After onemanga went down, I felt like mangastream was putting a giant target on themselves, and they didn't do themselves any favors with the twitter and ipad incidents. And really, the attitude that some of them had was pretty bad. It's always sad to see providers fall, but I'm not shedding any tears. I get the feeling that Binktopia will still scan it anyway and release it with some other method.
On the international side, I get it. You guys get the negative side of this whole ordeal without any of the positives. But settle down, the negatives aren't nearly as bad as some of you are making it out to be. At worst, you might be reading your OP scans on the Thursday or Friday before it comes out in Japan, instead of Wednesday. And guess what, us Americans are in the exact same boat in that regard. This is far from the death of scanlations. They'll still continue scanlating, and will simply have to switch to new methods of distribution. This is just a bump in the road that we were bound to reach sooner or later, and we've had them before. There's no need to overreact to it.
Exactly my thoughts, Urouge and I'm from outside the US. There was whining about Onemanga when it closed down, crap about death of scanlations, but we got a new scanlator almost right away. Mangastream going away isn't as big of a deal everyone is making it out to be. Geez.
Exactly my thoughts, Urouge and I'm from outside the US. There was whining about Onemanga when it closed down, crap about death of scanlations, but we got a new scanlator almost right away. Mangastream going away isn't as big of a deal everyone is making it out to be. Geez.
I think most people in the thread have realized that by now. It's more the fact that VIZ took action against a scanlation group at all that has kind of set this off. If I remember correctly, onemanga actually took down their stuff voluntarily.
YouTube isn't profitable. Google it, I bring that example up every time an online manga discussion happens because it's as mainstream a site as possible and Google still hasn't figured out how to make money off of it.
That isn't to say I disagree with you. I've been saying for years that manga serves as little more that commercials for merchandise. taboo and Robby have said people treat manga like webcomics…and how do most webcomics make money? 4Kids was founded on merchandise sales! The main hurdle is merchandise isn't easily accessed in R1 and when it is obtainable, it is extremely expensive. If someone found a way to import high volume Japanese products, cheaply, we might see something happen.
The downside is only really big, popular series get tons of associated merchandise. This works for One Piece, but not obscure stuff, so even if merchandise sales were good enough to pay for additional manga to be scanslated, those manga would have no way of generating profit by themselves.
I like your explanation much better than a lot of people in this thread who assume that free digital content automatically equals profit.
At this point, I'm just grateful that media has gone from being mildly affordable (to varying degrees) to really cheap. $26/year for manga is not expensive at all, and two weeks behind is still reasonable.
Other sites like Netflix, Hulu and Crunchyroll offer their services for very cheap prices as well. Maybe their prices just look better because I'm comparing it to 15 years ago when getting huge libraries of content for less than $10 a month would have been unheard of. If I knew I could access hours and hours of Nicklelodeon cartoons when I was a kid, I would have loved that.
We should always be demanding better service, at the best price, but I don't understand everyone acting like charging for digital content is a stupid or unethical business decision. Free to pay, view, etc. is still a risk for large companies. People who distribute content illegally can afford to do so because the risk is so low. Maybe it costs them server space, but that's minor compared to what large companies put on the line.
EDIT FOR BELOW: Well, most people should have realized it by now.
I think most people in the thread have realized that by now. It's more the fact that VIZ took action against a scanlation group at all that has kind of set this off. If I remember correctly, onemanga actually took down their stuff voluntarily.
I guess, I'm late to that, but some of the comments I've read everywhere are really extreme(and hilarious).
YouTube isn't profitable. Google it, I bring that example up every time an online manga discussion happens because it's as mainstream a site as possible and Google still hasn't figured out how to make money off of it.
That isn't to say I disagree with you. I've been saying for years that manga serves as little more that commercials for merchandise. taboo and Robby have said people treat manga like webcomics…and how do most webcomics make money? 4Kids was founded on merchandise sales! The main hurdle is merchandise isn't easily accessed in R1 and when it is obtainable, it is extremely expensive. If someone found a way to import high volume Japanese products, cheaply, we might see something happen.
The downside is only really big, popular series get tons of associated merchandise. This works for One Piece, but not obscure stuff, so even if merchandise sales were good enough to pay for additional manga to be scanslated, those manga would have no way of generating profit by themselves.
But what of VIZ's loyal customers, who want to 'reward' the company for bearing risk and bringing over Bleach???
I never stated YouTube itself was profitable yet (though it's pretty close to breaking even, and an enormous asset that's highly valued). I stated that music artists using YouTube as a means of free distribution find a great deal of success offering their core product for free consumption.
And you're right in your implied point that the name of the game is breaking even/getting slight profit on the main product, and making the bulk of your profit off auxiliary sales/merchandise/service. That's basically what I was driving at in my post where I mentioned how Viz could provide a subscription service to view their entire library while keeping current releases free. Such a service drives home at the point that you're getting a high volume of people that like your main product, and therefore some of that high volume might want to pay extra to get more. You don't get the high volume of people however without the free product, and without the high volume of people you won't have interest in the secondary/auxiliary products.
Also, in regards to Stephen saying that it won't be VIZ's fault they fail, but rather the fault of stubborn Japanese publishers - both sides carry the blame. In a financial sense, if VIZ embarks on a venture in where they know they're handicapped and unlikely to succeed (due to being in a headlock as you describe it), then they have incredibly poor management to waste time and resources on that project. If you know a business venture/investment has an extremely high likelihood of failure (without an obscene payoff to make such a risk worth it), then you have no one to blame but yourself when that venture/investment blows up in your face.
VIZ is simply wasting money, time, and fanbase goodwill by what they're embarking on now. The only way something like JUMP alpha should have come out is if they could have gotten jp JUMP publishers on board with the idea of a simultaneous (or near simultaneous) release with a free core product - because that's the only model that actually has a chance of succeeding. The excuse of, "oh, japan won't let us do that!" is just that - an excuse. If circumstances are such that you can't put out a product with a successful business model, the solution is to not put out the product at all.
The bottom line is this: Most of the fanbase that VIZ is trying to tap into was never generated by VIZ, and never would have been generated by the distribution models of jp JUMP. It was generated by the work of volunteer groups online that went out of their way to provide an avenue for which a strong fanbase could actually develop. VIZ recognizing that there's now quite a bit of demand online, is now trying to tap into that demand while doing the following things at the same time:
1.) Taking a shit on the people who helped develop the fanbase they now want money from.
2.) Providing a grossly inferior product in terms of delay (two week delay), and price (bad business model).
Even in the rosiest scenario in where VIZ manages to eradicate every non-sanctioned scanlation from the internet (lol), they'd still be left with a scenario in where they're trying to push a much shittier method of distribution (from the consumer pov) on a fanbase that's used to a much higher quality method of distribution in terms of both speed and price point. That fact alone would ensure that SJA's subscriptions rates would be pitiful at best.
SJA was stillborn the moment it was conceived. I'm not sure how much the JUMP licensing costs Viz (or the costs of its translations), so I can't say it won't make any profit. But I can safely say that it won't succeed in tapping into any significant (not even 5%) percentage of the US fanbase that's out there. Which absolutely makes it a failure compared to other potential methods that could conceivably capture huge portions of the fanbase.
Viz discussions aside.
Wow, I just got some awesome news about One Piece on Brazil. The new publisher will release this year all the volumes that the old publisher released and newer ones in a special subscription, and a cheap one! Even though it's cheap, I don't know if I can afford it, but still, this is amazing. I'll be happy to support whenever I can. I guess next year we'll probably catch up with the actual release.
Now we just need a decent DVD release, it would be good if the guys that released Saint Seiya's last sagas tried to do it.
Now I'm going to be honest here and say that I'm not going to pay for Alpha, nor do I have any intentions of doing so in the future. The fact that they're behind is strike number one for obvious reasons. I understand they won't be able to bring it out a week before actual Japanese release, but if Funimation can take just a few hours to translate the anime why can't Viz do it?
The biggest difference is anime is always digital. What is aired on TV is basically the same product one gets on DVD, so the only thing FUNimation really has to do is translate the script (which is really easy, because they're shorter than manga scripts and have an audio track to assist the TL) and slap it on the finished product.
Scanslation is a derivative of the actual product, printed manga. It has to be cleaned, translated and type-setted, and for it to be done for a simultaneous release, whoever does all of that needs direct contact with the manga-ka to get access to unreleased, finished chapters. It inconveniences everyone and the sheer labour required is tremendous, and consider people want this for every series. Costs are going to be incurred at every step of this process and summing that for several dozen series, let alone all of them, and one realizes it's not going to be profitable.
Financially, it's a whole lot easier to throw money into supporting SOPA than pursue such a convoluted route to side-step piracy, and looks worse considering the consumers it panders to are fickle, and the market doesn't promise clear returns. Breaking even would be an optimistic scenario. VIZ Media is basically gambling right now, which like Zp1 implied, they should really fire their actuaries.
I don't know anything about editing manga, but aren't the characters we see in the speech bubbles computer-made? That would mean they edit the mangas digitally, so Shueisha would only have to send these files to Alpha for them to change the text.
Unless they use the mangaka's manuscript, then the advantage of having access to the originals would be worthless.
The biggest difference is anime is always digital. What is aired on TV is basically the same product one gets on DVD, so the only thing FUNimation really has to do is translate the script (which is really easy, because they're shorter than manga scripts and have an audio track to assist the TL) and slap it on the finished product.
Scanslation is a derivative of the actual product, printed manga. It has to be cleaned, translated and type-setted, and for it to be done for a simultaneous release, whoever does all of that needs direct contact with the manga-ka to get access to unreleased, finished chapters. It inconveniences everyone and the sheer labour required is tremendous, and consider people want this for every series. Costs are going to be incurred at every step of this process and summing that for several dozen series, let alone all of them, and one realizes it's not going to be profitable.
Financially, it's a whole lot easier to throw money into supporting SOPA than pursue such a convoluted route to side-step piracy, and looks worse considering the consumers it panders to are fickle, and the market doesn't promise clear returns. Breaking even would be an optimistic scenario. VIZ Media is basically gambling right now, which like Zp1 implied, they should really fire their actuaries.
VIZ's only (and this is in theory only really for reasons i'll explain) chance of making profit off a venture it's doing right now would be to somehow garner extreme amounts of good will from the online fanbases of JUMP series to the point of making them want to deal with inferior release dates and price points. However, there's simply no reason for that good will to exist. In fact, let me break the reality of the situation down to it's most core level:
There is no new service VIZ is providing by entering the market in its current form. Because the "service" it provides is already being delivered quickly and at a much more desirable price point.
Legality issues don't really matter at all when assessing the realities of the situation. VIZ does not have the ability of stopping others online from providing superior service on the two points that matter most, and therefore they are stuck in the situation of merely providing an inferior product. Moreover, VIZ as a company has done nothing to ingratiate itself with the community it's seeking money from (if anything it's done the opposite), and therefore there's no real extra reason for people to go out of the way to support them.
TL;DR as to why VIZ Is doomed to fail:
1.) Not providing superior service on the vital areas of speed and price point.
2.) Zero ability to shutdown competitors that do provide superior service.
3.) Has never generated enough good will to cause people to support them in spite of obvious shortcomings.
You can't come into a segment of the industry, and provide a shittier product while trying to shutdown better (remember, better as in price point/release time) products. Simple as that.
Very well said, Viz should go through SOPA or insert another internet regulatory proposal if they wanted to be as effective. Pursuing specific sites would only make another one take its place for the time being, but SOPA should be far more detrimental for online scanlations I would think.
@Zp1: I'm failing to see your "better price point" by that do you mean free?
You can't come into a segment of the industry,
lol
"industry"
Very well said, Viz should go through SOPA or insert another internet regulatory proposal if they wanted to be as effective. Pursuing specific sites would only make another one take its place for the time being, but SOPA should be far more detrimental for online scanlations I would think.
It'll also genocide the market, assuming the market even exists.
As I said before, scanslations are effectively promotional material for the real product, bound manga. I never would have imagined R1 companies would attempt some half-arsed digital distro model because most people see hard copy manga as a more tangible, actual "product" than a scanslation. It's not like the Kindle scenario where online books are far cheaper than price sharking printed text and the customer cares little for the hard copy - people want to own manga because it's a form of merchandise!
Hypothetically, the rise in demand created by scanslations more than offsets the loss of consumers who consider scanslations a close substitute for bound manga. This is why, in 2005-2006 when we still had rampant piracy (though not as bad as 2008+), R1 companies were breaking sales records with Naruto, FMA, Bleach and Mahou Sensei Negima!.
This applies to comics too. Consider than when the movie V for Vendetta came out in 2006, piracy of the original comic increased…but so did sales of the original comic. Mainstream demand for the original comic effectively didn't exist until the movie promoted it, so outside of someone pirating both the movie and the comic, V for Vendetta's owners made money in some respect (less so for Alan Moore, by request).
I prefer to think of the issues we saw in 2008-2011 as a compound problem built on the bad economy suppressing overall spending on luxury goods, the downsizing/bankruptcy of Walden/Border's Books (the top chain retailer for manga) and the launch of huge portals like OneManga, which made everything look worse than it really was. Though it certainly hurt R1 publishers, had they not benefited from the robust market of the preceding few years things would have been much more dire for them.
If VIZ Media gets behind a SOPA-like policy and the policy is 100% effective, they kill whatever interest there was in digital manga by removing the free source of distribution. It'll also reduce the diversity that is a so lauded result of online distro. Manga fans aren't going to pay money for series they don't care about, or even hate, so that defeats the point of access to a library of diverse titles. Consumers won't pay for such a service and only buy access to the series they want, and if that option isn't provided they won't buy at all. Without competition, there's also little reason for VIZ Media to keep prices low, since it'll try to compensate for the decreased demand by charging up to a customer's willingness to pay.
It's basically a model that relies on the goodwill/loyalty/sense of duty of its consumers, which is an awful and dangerous way to conduct business, because it's relying on something volatile and intangible rather than taking advantage of a natural market. Like Zp1 says, VIZ Media's only shot of making money off of Alpha is doing this, but it's really a bad business idea. They could make money for a while assuming I'm severely underestimating how loyal some people are…but if the economy sours again, they are dead ducks.
Moreover...in our Orwellian scenario places like Wikia or blogs still comprehensively summarize entire manga chapter plots, which wouldn't violate a SOPA-like law but can still act as a substitute for reading the actual manga chapters. Consider the close analog in sports - reading a game summary rather than watching the game live. Every newspaper has a sports section with daily articles like that, and with the comments section or Twitter feed of a blog, we have interactivity and discussion that VIZ Media can't take advantage of. It seems hard for some to believe, but following blog rolls for anime is really popular, especially for reviled shows like last season's Guilty Crown that nobody wanted to download, but everyone wanted to read reviews about how bad it was.
Basically, my advice for VIZ Media would be to stick to printed manga, lay off some staff, and keep a low profile until the economy gets better. Or find a way to cheapen printing costs so manga becomes $2.99 apiece, like a Scholastic paper-back (English volumes are usually higher quality than Japanese tankos). Going digital is attacking the problem from the wrong end.
@Zp1: you made great points. "Some" of our american friends who are subscribed to SJA can continue having pride on their high horses, feeling superior to the measly pirate parasites who read their manga for free and being happy with themselves for supporting VIZ if that makes their day, but if the discussion is about if what VIZ is doing is the best business approach, you won't find any one raising any good point to counter yours.
What I'm really curious about is why wasn't other manga sharing sites who out-lived & out-scoped (quantity wise) mangastream taken down? I know they aren't scanlating manga or being vocal about themselves, but they are far from being underground,. Heck if you googled manga: mangafox & mangareader are right there on the top!
@Bad:
@Zp1: you made great points. "Some" of our american friends who are subscribed to SJA can continue having pride on their high horses, feeling superior to the measly pirate parasites who read their manga for free and being happy with themselves for supporting VIZ if that makes their day
oh, i'm reading the pirated stuff too
im so american i have so much fucking manga FREEDOM
SO MUCH FREEDOM
AMERCIA
ALSO I HAVE SO MUCH MONEY LOOK AT ME SO RICH AFFORDING 26$ A YEAR
I like that Mangastream made a description based system on the chapter. Not exactly the same as reading the full chapter but no one said you couldn't describe it. Makes understanding some of the confusing stuff on the chapters better. I like that, its nice to see that they managed to turn this to their advantage.
Don't you know in America we get partial series. Like 7 volumes of Bobobo and all of Part 3 of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Knowing that these series are longer doesn't make me want to look online for the rest of it no sir ree bob/sarcasm/
*Skims thread
Ahh, I'm glad there are so many people who think they are entitled to something for free…it warms the cockles of my heart~
Just go to another site like everyone else and quiet down...don't take your misplaced aggression out on a company that is trying to get the content out as fast as Shueisha allows them. The funny thing about the Japanese, they are pissed that we get stuff before them when they are the creators, therefore, Shueisha has put their foot down and made sure that this doesn't happen as nearly as much. This has made it tough on Viz who clearly are trying to please us. It was not Viz's decision for the release date, they have to follow their bosses orders.
The fact that most of you aren't willing to toss a measly 26 dollars (I'm talking to most of my fellow Americans) then I'm sorry, go cry in your corner and let the adults talk. Sorry that your parents don't give you enough pocket money for something on your iPod, iPad, laptop, etc. I'm sorry your lives are so terrible and feel you should be showered with free things.
And if anything, there are plenty other sites to read them so no need to bitch and moan...Mangastream closing its doors on WSJ material is nothing...just like Onemanga before it...
thank you and good night...
im so american i have so much fucking manga FREEDOM
SO MUCH FREEDOM
AMERCIA
WOW, really… I'm so jealous you can't even describe it... good for you.
ALSO I HAVE SO MUCH MONEY LOOK AT ME SO RICH AFFORDING 26$ A YEAR
Don't forget that your 26$ are worthless if you weren't american. That's why you are better than the rest of us & it's so sweet. I am really really jealous… If only :(
Don't forget that your 26$ are worthless if you weren't american
GOD BLESS AMERICA
SO MUCH
FREEDOM
It'll also genocide the market, assuming the market even exists.
As I said before, scanslations are effectively promotional material for the real product, bound manga. I never would have imagined R1 companies would attempt some half-arsed digital distro model because most people see hard copy manga as a more tangible, actual "product" than a scanslation. It's not like the Kindle scenario where online books are far cheaper than price sharking printed text and the customer cares little for the hard copy - people want to own manga because it's a form of merchandise!
Hypothetically, the rise in demand created by scanslations more than offsets the loss of consumers who consider scanslations a close substitute for bound manga. This is why, in 2005-2006 when we still had rampant piracy (though not as bad as 2008+), R1 companies were breaking sales records with Naruto, FMA, Bleach and Mahou Sensei Negima!.
This applies to comics too. Consider than when the movie V for Vendetta came out in 2006, piracy of the original comic increased…but so did sales of the original comic. Mainstream demand for the original comic effectively didn't exist until the movie promoted it, so outside of someone pirating both the movie and the comic, V for Vendetta's owners made money in some respect (less so for Alan Moore, by request).
I prefer to think of the issues we saw in 2008-2011 as a compound problem built on the bad economy suppressing overall spending on luxury goods, the downsizing/bankruptcy of Walden/Border's Books (the top chain retailer for manga) and the launch of huge portals like OneManga, which made everything look worse than it really was. Though it certainly hurt R1 publishers, had they not benefited from the robust market of the preceding few years things would have been much more dire for them.
If VIZ Media gets behind a SOPA-like policy and the policy is 100% effective, they kill whatever interest there was in digital manga by removing the free source of distribution. It'll also reduce the diversity that is a so lauded result of online distro. Manga fans aren't going to pay money for series they don't care about, or even hate, so that defeats the point of access to a library of diverse titles. Consumers won't pay for such a service and only buy access to the series they want, and if that option isn't provided they won't buy at all. Without competition, there's also little reason for VIZ Media to keep prices low, since it'll try to compensate for the decreased demand by charging up to a customer's willingness to pay.
It's basically a model that relies on the goodwill/loyalty/sense of duty of its consumers, which is an awful and dangerous way to conduct business, because it's relying on something volatile and intangible rather than taking advantage of a natural market. Like Zp1 says, VIZ Media's only shot of making money off of Alpha is doing this, but it's really a bad business idea. They could make money for a while assuming I'm severely underestimating how loyal some people are…but if the economy sours again, they are dead ducks.
Moreover...in our Orwellian scenario places like Wikia or blogs still comprehensively summarize entire manga chapter plots, which wouldn't violate a SOPA-like law but can still act as a substitute for reading the actual manga chapters. Consider the close analog in sports - reading a game summary rather than watching the game live. Every newspaper has a sports section with daily articles like that, and with the comments section or Twitter feed of a blog, we have interactivity and discussion that VIZ Media can't take advantage of. It seems hard for some to believe, but following blog rolls for anime is really popular, especially for reviled shows like last season's Guilty Crown that nobody wanted to download, but everyone wanted to read reviews about how bad it was.
Basically, my advice for VIZ Media would be to stick to printed manga, lay off some staff, and keep a low profile until the economy gets better. Or find a way to cheapen printing costs so manga becomes $2.99 apiece, like a Scholastic paper-back (English volumes are usually higher quality than Japanese tankos). Going digital is attacking the problem from the wrong end.
Agreed on all points. Also, I'll actually take the discussion one step further and throw this point out:
What's the point of translation companies like VIZ at all now?
In the past, there was a clear need for a region based company to handle translation work and distribution of materials. However, today a japanese company can just as easily reach the US market as any US-based company can. Why should VIZ exist at all?
I realize VIZ is actually owned by the major japanese publishers, but there's really no reason to have a costly US-based operation at all. Bilingual translators in-house can easily put up a quality international website for viewing current manga. Moreover, merchandising distribution for things like manga volumes and general merchandise could easily be handled by partnerships with websites like Amazon.
The big japanese publishers might be dinosaurs and slow to change, but eventually what I just wrote above will become apparent to them as well. VIZ as a company is undoubtedly going to go out of business within the next 5-10 years - and that's probably being on the optimistic side of things. There's simply no need for a middleman company for things like manga anymore.
The answer is that, for as little as you might think Viz understands the American market for manga, the Japanese publishers understand it far, far less. Most of the deficiencies in the current service are a result of staunch conservatism on the Japanese side, and it's the initiative on the American side that has gotten this give-and-take relationship even to the point that it is now, which, as many have pointed out, is far far better than it used to be. In order to successfully export a product like this, you need to have local expertise, not just in the form of translators, but business people for managing those deals with Amazon and their printers and merchandisers, marketing staff and website managers who are going to properly interface with online users and understand how to tailor the product to the English-speaking internet (and yes, if you didn't know, the internet we know and the Japanese internet are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!).
In order to run as an efficient business, Shueisha would need all of these people, being properly fluent in English and possessing the right skills and mindset to interface with the English internet. They are not going to find those people in Japan, and hiring a bunch of Americans to go live in Japan is a) not a long-term solution given their work visa regulations, and b) makes way less sense than the current configuration, which almost every international company in the world uses: a partner or offshoot that is based in the target country and staffed by people from that country!
If you want to know what kind of hellspawn an entirely Japanese-initiated project of this sort would be, go look at Jmanga. It's a post-modern nightmare of proprietary currency systems, a mess of arbitrary titles thrown at the user with no rhyme or reason, translation/editing labor contracted out to the cheapest possible sources leading to most of the work being scanlation quality at best (read: pretty bad), and no regard whatsoever for strong future growth. The people who put that together may have had the skills and capability to fashion an online manga business, but they don't have the expertise to create a lasting product, and that's what a middleman like Viz provides.
At least JManga is still around but yeah, they messed up pretty bad. I really wish them the best but it's very telling how no one posts on their Facebook page anymore, which by the way if you posted there you'd get a very quickly response back from the person running that page. I'm actually thinking of sending JManga a very lengthy write-up of criticisms and what they need they to do to get on track just out of goodwill.
@ Zp1 - HAHAHAHA! Are you some kind of business major or something, do you run a business similar in any way shape or form to digital distribution? I like how you just have the end all answers.
I go to cons and listen to fans like you about everything, I'll I can do is sigh in depression at how entitled and all knowing folks like you feel.
Then I meet guys like Stephen and I realize, there are socially adequate people who like manga and anime with a good head on their shoulders.
I like that Mangastream made a description based system on the chapter. Not exactly the same as reading the full chapter but no one said you couldn't describe it. Makes understanding some of the confusing stuff on the chapters better. I like that, its nice to see that they managed to turn this to their advantage.
I totally called this.
Like last night.
Wikia is going to be a major target for copyright cannons someday, mark my words.
Kind of sad, but yeah, like others said it was coming.
Though the saddest thing I see is that any SJ Alpha is going to have all the edits that Viz never let go of, such as Zolo which makes me want to hurt things every time I read it.
The whole Zolo thing is for consistencies,I know,but when most fans hate that term,shows how stubborn Viz is.Can't they call him Zoro,then have an italics saying "due to fan response,we've decided to use the characters original name-Ed." or something.Ah,I never had any intention of subscribe to this anyway,lol,so what do I care.I'll enjoy the slighty blurry images of scanned manga for free,it doesn't bother me,as opposed to paying for the same exact thing.
Also,it's perfectly legal to view scanned manga.Looking at an image is fine,same with a steaming video.Downloading,on the other hand,is illegal.But whatevezzzz…