Wait what, you mean people are still voting on that thing? Damn, it's currently tied. personally I would not like that because I was bored with Fairy Tail in record time. I don't even think I got past 10 chapters. I just don't know why, but I couldn't feel motivated to keep reading.
Naruto and Bleach: Let's put this thread to bed I
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Naruto hasn't really changed all that much. He's been mildly annoying at his core from the very beginning through the entire story. He's had his moments of extreme annoyance and his good moments in both halves. The frequencies have changed a bit now, maybe, but I don't think it's all that significant.
Naruto's mancrush on Sasuke is totally contrived and ridiculous. Not to mention his talk no jutsus, which basically consist of "I don't have any actual concrete plan or logic to what I'm doing, but just believe in me because I promise I'll do it and I'm special." And, as I said before, him now being a child of destiny.
Sakura has been consistently wildly inconsistent throughout the entire series. She started out annoying, then she turned awesome for the Chuunin exam, and then she turned downright irritating when Sasuke ran away, and then she was one of the only good things during the beginning of part 2, and then she was annoying again, and then she became seemingly nonexistent, and now we're here. But to say she took some major and irreparable nosedive somewhere like Sasuke did is something I would call BS to.
Have you read the Gokage Summit arc? I dare you - I double dare you - to defend the way she was handled in that arc.
Sasuke sucks. I liked him just fine at the beginning. But when he ran away the floor dropped out from underneath him. I'd say he was still falling but I figure there's only so far down a character can go before gravity starts pulling him back up.
Nope. Sasuke has delved into a dark abyss of character suckitude from which he will never return. Eventually there will be some stupid redemption chapter towards the end of the series and we're all going to fucking hate it.
On the contrary, it was so obvious that I had a hard time envisioning a different outcome.
If it was so obvious that there was virtually no other possible outcome, then why did Kishi wait 300+ chapters to tell us?
Did Naruto win a fight throughout all of part 1 in which he didn't use the 9 tails as the trump card?
Uh, Kiba, I think. Of course, he won that fight with Fart no jutsu.
Haku, Neji, Gaara, Kabuto, and even the loss against Sasuke all ended with him breaking out the old 9 tails chakra to go all out (or in Kabuto's case to not die). It was a major help to him when he actually needed it.
Hmm, my memory's vague on Neji, Gaara, and Kabuto, so I dunno, you may have a point. But as you said, even with 9 tails, he still lost to Sasuke, so it doesn't guarantee him victory.
Naruto was an orphaned boy who nearly everyone hated. He had absolutely no reason to think he was anyone special, and every reason to think that there was something fundamentally wrong with him. He thought he was a nobody without lineage, so he said the right things and did the right things to improve under those circumstances. It was a good message for kids at the time, so I have absolutely no problem with it. Once it was officially revealed that he was the son of the 4th hokage, anyone who was influenced by the message was either too old to be bothered by the reveal or too young to notice it in most cases. I don't even view it as much of a contradiction because it's a very believable scenario. You could claim it was a contradiction of theme, and there's certainly a good argument that can be made there, but I don't know of any rules that a several hundred chapter manga has to maintain the same theme throughout.
Really? Do orphans often find themselves to be descendants of greatness?
But back to the main argument, it is true that mangas can explore different themes throughout their runs as they evolve, but to make a complete and utter contradiction of a previous theme that undermine the statements that the main character previously said is very jarring. And yes, I do think a manga should try to maintain at least one major theme throughout its run (and the underdog was a pretty pivotal theme) otherwise it loses all sense of what it is and what it's trying to say.
As for people who are picking it up today, I think it's safe to say a good deal of them will buy the volumes or through some other methods read the old chapters to see what they've missed out on. And in any case it doesn't matter, since I'm judging the manga as a whole.
Maybe if it wasn't a ninja world. A secret, long-held tradition is well within the realm of possibility. And transferring a tailed beast kills the original user, so one should assume that it would be a rarely-used practice. 1-2 times per lifetime, or so .
But everyone in the village knew that Naruto was carrying the Nine-tailed fox. Oh man, I think I'm actually contradicting myself at this point.
Look, all I remember from part 1 is that the tailed best implantation ritual seemed like a rarely-used last-resort method, thus why everyone was so fearful of and stayed away from Naruto. Then in part 2 it turns out its actually some regular thing that the villages organize to maintain a power balance or something.
I didn't intend to point that gun at your head. It was aimed at this thread as a whole.
You're right, that stuff is simple human nature. Which is why I feel I can say this stuff and feel relatively confident about it. It happens across all facets of life. I'm drawn to it as well, but I consider myself lucky that I find it boring when I get there. I don't like being bored, so it's like some twisted Pavlovian experiment sometimes. I find being opposed to the group is a lot more interesting, but it's also a lot more difficult. It's always a give and take either way.
Several people have told me that before I came in here, this debate was far too one sided for a long time. That tells me all I need to know about the groupthink around here. It's what allows me to confidently say that most people in here think that Naruto is worse than it actually is. Even though I don't have a ton of solid evidence to back it up yet.
Well, the question is, why does the general consensus here hate Naruto? This isn't a Naruto hate site, it's a One Piece site. So do most people who like One Piece hate Naruto? I don't know, but if that is the case there must be some logic behind it. Are we envious of the attention that Naruto gets in comparison to One Piece, especially in the U.S.? Well, I don't deny there could be a grain of truth in that, especially a few years ago, but Naruto is well past its prime in the U.S. (although the manga does still sell really well if I understand correctly), and I doubt that people would be that petty that they would continue to hold that against Naruto, if they ever did in the first place (or at least I hope they wouldn't).
Or, I dunno, maybe we're just a bunch of reasonably intelligent individuals who have come to a general consensus that Naruto sucks. I mean, it's not like we hate Naruto exclusively (Bleach, Fairy Tail, Reborn, etc.) and we certainly don't hate it the most. And there's plenty of other manga that we do like (Dragonball, HxH, FMA, etc.) some even more than One Piece.
Could there be some other logic behind it? I don't know and I don't have time to speculate. But if you think the general consensus here is wrong, fine, it's your opinion. And if you want to try to change it, by all means, argue away, tell us why you think we're wrong (but I can't guarantee how much success you'll have). We could certainly use someone more competent than juju to argue with.
I'm not sure HxH is a very good example. I know just as many people who can't stand it as love it. It's really a fairly even spread all over the board. I'm not sure there's a majority bandwagon to be found overall like with most manga. But I'd assume that thread would have more people who like it than not because those who don't normally don't bother reading any more of it.
looks at Naruto and Bleach thread
Hmm….
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Naruto's mancrush on Sasuke is totally contrived and ridiculous. Not to mention his talk no jutsus, which basically consist of "I don't have any actual concrete plan or logic to what I'm doing, but just believe in me because I promise I'll do it and I'm special." And, as I said before, him now being a child of destiny.
But Naruto has ALWAYS had a ridiculous mancrush on Sasuke. It's not as if it came out of nowhere one day. But yes, Kishimoto sucks with persuasive dialog. I think the placement of them is fine, but the actual conversation is usually pretty weak. But it's not always only supposed to be about the talking. Even in One Piece Luffy frequently wins people over with his determination alone. But the execution of it is normally handled better.
Have you read the Gokage Summit arc? I dare you - I double dare you - to defend the way she was handled in that arc.
I'm not sure I can say anything that wasn't explicitly explained in those chapters. She was annoying, but it was a short lived annoyance. Did it even last more than a chapter? I'd explain her thought process, but I'd probably just be quoting the manga line for line. At least she actually tried to take responsibility instead of just sitting there and crying and relying on others like Ino did, or simply hyperventilate and pass out like Naruto did. I would have been more disappointed with shit like that. Attempt and failure I can live with, even if it's not well thought out by the character. Being emotional will do that.
Nope. Sasuke has delved into a dark abyss of character suckitude from which he will never return. Eventually there will be some stupid redemption chapter towards the end of the series and we're all going to fucking hate it.
Perhaps, but it sounds to me like you've already decided that you're going to hate and piss on whatever happens ahead of time. It doesn't really stand a chance now, does it?
If it was so obvious that there was virtually no other possible outcome, then why did Kishi wait 300+ chapters to tell us?
To let people doubt it. Look in the mirror. Despite it being so stupidly obvious you didn't even think it was going to happen.
Uh, Kiba, I think. Of course, he won that fight with Fart no jutsu.
True. That fight slipped my mind. Still doesn't change anything.
Hmm, my memory's vague on Neji, Gaara, and Kabuto, so I dunno, you may have a point. But as you said, even with 9 tails, he still lost to Sasuke, so it doesn't guarantee him victory.
I'll help you. Neji sealed all Naruto's chakra holes, and Naruto had to use the fox's chakra to even be able to fight. The fox was a much smaller part of the victory against Gaara. It really just gave him the last little bit of chakra he needed to land the final blow. Kabuto cut some important chakra channel to Naruto's heart or something and claimed that even Tsunade couldn't save him. Then the fox showed up and gave him the boost that he needed to live through it. While it's true he lost to Sasuke, he still used the 9 tails as his trump card and was significantly stronger while using it.
Really? Do orphans often find themselves to be descendants of greatness?
No, but descendants of greatness are few and far between whether they're orphans or not. In the ninja world, most of them probably are. Since the true ninja heroes in the story are frequently remembered for giving their lives for the greater good.
But back to the main argument, it is true that mangas can explore different themes throughout their runs as they evolve, but to make a complete and utter contradiction of a previous theme that undermine the statements that the main character previously said is very jarring. And yes, I do think a manga should try to maintain at least one major theme throughout its run (and the underdog was a pretty pivotal theme) otherwise it loses all sense of what it is and what it's trying to say.
The only solution I deem as necessary is a replacement character to maintain the theme. Such as Lee. It's a shame that it hasn't happened yet. And there's also the matter of translation to begin with. I've seen both "hard work will surpass talent" and "hard work is more important than talent". The latter hasn't really been broken by part 2 of the story, unless you assume that the sage training happened overnight.
You're giving part 2 far too much of the blame for this theme bit. If it's a mess now, it was a mess then. Naruto was always special, even Sasuke said as much straight up when they fought at the end of part 1. And I think Lee went about 0-3 in his fights during all of part 1. I consider this just another case of people wanting another reason to say part 2 is worse. It is, but at least be fair about the reasoning.
But everyone in the village knew that Naruto was carrying the Nine-tailed fox. Oh man, I think I'm actually contradicting myself at this point.
Look, all I remember from part 1 is that the tailed best implantation ritual seemed like a rarely-used last-resort method, thus why everyone was so fearful of and stayed away from Naruto. Then in part 2 it turns out its actually some regular thing that the villages organize to maintain a power balance or something.
All of the hosts are feared by their own villages just for being hosts. This hasn't changed in the slightest bit during part 2. The only difference is that it features two hosts who've overcome that obstacle and won over their respective villages. I also can't think of anything from part 1 that makes the balance of power concept a contradiction. It appeared to be the case at the end of the Chuunin exam arc.
Well, the question is, why does the general consensus here hate Naruto? This isn't a Naruto hate site, it's a One Piece site. So do most people who like One Piece hate Naruto? I don't know, but if that is the case there must be some logic behind it. Are we envious of the attention that Naruto gets in comparison to One Piece, especially in the U.S.? Well, I don't deny there could be a grain of truth in that, especially a few years ago, but Naruto is well past its prime in the U.S. (although the manga does still sell really well if I understand correctly), and I doubt that people would be that petty that they would continue to hold that against Naruto, if they ever did in the first place (or at least I hope they wouldn't).
I'm not going to pretend to have an answer for why a One Piece fan would have inherent bitterness over Naruto. I consider myself a One Piece fan and I don't feel any animosity towards any other manga because of it. But I still can't speak for other people. What I do know is that downward spiraling groupthink is a very powerful monster.
Or, I dunno, maybe we're just a bunch of reasonably intelligent individuals who have come to a general consensus that Naruto sucks. I mean, it's not like we hate Naruto exclusively (Bleach, Fairy Tail, Reborn, etc.) and we certainly don't hate it the most. And there's plenty of other manga that we do like (Dragonball, HxH, FMA, etc.) some even more than One Piece.
Could there be some other logic behind it? I don't know and I don't have time to speculate. But if you think the general consensus here is wrong, fine, it's your opinion. And if you want to try to change it, by all means, argue away, tell us why you think we're wrong (but I can't guarantee how much success you'll have). We could certainly use someone more competent than juju to argue with.
Is there really a manga that's liked more than One Piece on this site? I find that hard to swallow on a site dedicated to it. What I said above about groupthink still applies. There are groups far more distinguished than an internet forum that suffer from it. And there are also manga that legitimately suck asshair.
I think the general consensus here is simply exaggerated. Trying to change it sounds like fun to me, regardless of success.
looks at Naruto and Bleach thread
Hmm….
I know plenty of people who don't like Naruto and hate Bleach yet still read both every single week. I barely know anyone who doesn't like HxH and still reads it.
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Naruto's mancrush on Sasuke is totally contrived and ridiculous. Not to mention his talk no jutsus, which basically consist of "I don't have any ….........................................
Really? Do orphans often find themselves to be descendants of greatness?
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oWell, the question is, why does the general consensus here hate Naruto? This isn't a Naruto hate site, it's a One Piece site. So do most people who like One Piece hate Naruto? I don't know, but if that is the case there must be some logic behind it. Are we envious of the attention that Naruto gets in comparison to One Piece, especially in the U.S.? Well, I don't deny there could be a grain of truth in that, especially a few years ago, but Naruto is well past its prime in the U.S. (although the manga does still sell really well if I understand correctly), and I doubt that people would be that petty that they would continue to hold that against Naruto, if they ever did in the first place (or at least I hope they wouldn't).
Or, I dunno, maybe we're just a bunch of reasonably intelligent individuals who have come to a general consensus that Naruto sucks. I mean, it's not like we hate Naruto exclusively (Bleach, Fairy Tail, Reborn, etc.) and we certainly don't hate it the most. And there's plenty of other manga that we do like (Dragonball, HxH, FMA, etc.) some even more than One Piece.
Could there be some other logic behind it? I don't know and I don't have time to speculate. But if you think the general consensus here is wrong, fine, it's your opinion. And if you want to try to change it, by all means, argue away, tell us why you think we're wrong (but I can't guarantee how much success you'll have). We could certainly use someone more competent than juju to argue with.
looks at Naruto and Bleach thread
Hmm….
#luffy too almost brought up as orphan(garp literally through him to the care of mountain bandit,then 10 years on wonders why luffy turned out this way)….but then discovered that he has a illustrious father too as well as epic 'linage' of 'D' .....
but diff with naruto is,unlike naruto he never care a s*** with his blood linage..that's what make him more lovable and admirable than naruto to me.....
#how else you gonna find which manga is most popular unless you see the no. of copies sold.?....if you want to show the popularity of One Piece in Japan by volume selling,then you have to admit that popularity of naruto in english speaking countries...naruto still makes it top in US..this year too...in a interview in 2010 Viz boss himself admitted the craze with naruto...
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I know plenty of people who don't like Naruto and hate Bleach yet still read both every single week. I barely know anyone who doesn't like HxH and still reads it.
Bleach and Naruto may lack the literary impact as say HXH or OP but I guess it's due to them being very known, and by that I mean it's probably one of those manga where most people have been following since the beginning (Naruto being around 06' for us in the US) and even if they know that these manga are not what they used to be they still read them to see the outcome. They may even still have the question in their head, "Can this manga still pull through?"
I think a good comparison would be to reality TV, most of us watch them just to talk shit and insult the cast, but we still watch it every week. As apposed to say, political channels where its very informative but we just pass through it. Something like that.
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You know what, even teh hellhole Naruto is now, I still can't wait to read abotu 4th Hokage's past. I love that guy. But for now, I'm dropping this until there's some revelation about the 4th Hokage. Please Kishimoto, don't fuck up his character! I had his headcanon life for almost 4 years and I would greatly be dissapointed if its not well written or well-thought.
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You know what, even teh hellhole Naruto is now, I still can't wait to read about 4th Hokage's past. I love that guy. But for now, I'm dropping this until there's some revelation about the 4th Hokage. Please Kishimoto, don't fuck up his character! I had his headcanon life for almost 4 years and I would greatly be dissapointed if its not well written or well-thought.
What do you mean we already had that,are you behind in the story?
I doubt Kishi will show more of him except maybe at end of the series to make some sort of heritage that naruto gain from him(again). -
What do you mean we already had that,are you behind in the story?
I doubt Kishi will show more of him except maybe at end of the series to make some sort of heritage that naruto gain from him(again).Kishi said that he is going to make a prequel involving Minato's life, which means that there are more to what we are seeing now.
Please don't kill that tiny little hope that I have.
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Kishi said that he is going to make a prequel involving Mianto's life, which means that there are more to what we are seeing now.
Please don't kill that tiny little hope that I have.
Well im tempted:ninja: but okay.
I thought the poll was already closed,its seems bit silly to add now
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Whoa, the choice to add Fairy Tail to this thread is nearing the lead
I'm pretty sure it was decided a long time ago that it wasn't going to happen. It would make the thread too chaotic, and the sheer caustic nature of the Fairy Tail thread would make this one less fun.
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This is a very entertaining discussion Nobodyman and Mustard are having.
I'll have to get some more popcorn…
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I got to agree with Nobody man Naurto going from a underdog into golden boy is annoying. I could see if he still worked hard and used his wits like he did in the very beginning(Truly the fake out is the most powerful weapon in Naruto) but jump into a scene and defeat Ninjas vastly more powerful and deverse/smart than he is with little effort is annoying. I mean he beat the raikage with a rasengan? I mean ninjas use to be stupid smart in part one. Your average chunnin or even gennin came up with very elaborate plans and saw through various scenarios but now they fall for obvious faints(and these are freaking kage's).
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Even with all his power Naruto shouldn't be able to beat more than one kage. Let alone beat multiple kage level opponents using clones. If this is true than it not only makes the most powerful jutsu out there(the resurection jutsu) look stupid but also down plays kage's in general. I mean whats to stop Naruto from soloing the villages afterwards? And why the fuck did the Raikage sacrifice and arm to hit Sasuke. Why did fucking Garra step in and stop the one chance to beat Sasuke? I mean the Manga kind of ignored the fact that the man lost his arm for no reason.The basics are being ignored. I'm starting to think the current Kage's are the most incompetent emotional ninjas out there.
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It's becoming painfully obvious that Naruto won't be hokage.If he wants to unite the ninja world,and he's going to go beyond hokage.he was always a spaz with no clear goal and was fickle.
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@Baou:
he was always a spaz with no clear goal and was fickle.
I agree with the being a spaz part, but Naruto has said "I'll be hokage!" (which, by towards the end of part 1 and onward, was replaced by "I'll bring back Sasuke!"). I'm not saying his methodology is good, but aren't those clear goals?
But let me just take the time to say, I agree with everyone…...Naruto used to be about the underdog prevailing, and I miss that theme. I mean, that's what got me interested in the manga in the beginning....to see Naruto try to accomplish this goal despite most of the village hating and/or being afraid of him. Hard work was got him by. But now......tsk.
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I got to agree with Nobody man Naurto going from a underdog into golden boy is annoying. I could see if he still worked hard and used his wits like he did in the very beginning(Truly the fake out is the most powerful weapon in Naruto) but jump into a scene and defeat Ninjas vastly more powerful and deverse/smart than he is with little effort is annoying. I mean he beat the raikage with a rasengan? I mean ninjas use to be stupid smart in part one. Your average chunnin or even gennin came up with very elaborate plans and saw through various scenarios but now they fall for obvious faints(and these are freaking kage's).
Thanks. This is a great example of someone who's convinced themselves so heavily that Naruto has become awful that he has to contradict himself in a single paragraph to back it up. You complain that he doesn't use his wits anymore, and immediately follow it up with complaining about a fight he won by wits alone after brawn was ineffective. Fucking brilliant. And to claim that he doesn't work hard anymore is ridiculous beyond words. There are lots of legitimate complaints you could make about Naruto, but you come up with this crap.
I'll be nice and give you some help since you clearly need it. Rasenshuriken not working against a lightning shield was a ridiculous way to get to that point. He could have at least made the shield an earth based technique. That would have given Kishimoto an excuse for the 3rd raikage's attack to work when rasenshuriken didn't. But he didn't, and I couldn't defend against that even if I tried.
Even with all his power Naruto shouldn't be able to beat more than one kage. Let alone beat multiple kage level opponents using clones. If this is true than it not only makes the most powerful jutsu out there(the resurection jutsu) look stupid but also down plays kage's in general. I mean whats to stop Naruto from soloing the villages afterwards? And why the fuck did the Raikage sacrifice and arm to hit Sasuke. Why did fucking Garra step in and stop the one chance to beat Sasuke? I mean the Manga kind of ignored the fact that the man lost his arm for no reason.
The basics are being ignored. I'm starting to think the current Kage's are the most incompetent emotional ninjas out there.
The raikage losing an arm was characterization that hasn't changed since. He's a hot blooded, aggressive bull of a fighter who's strong as shit. Gaara prevented him from likely killing himself. He may have defeated Sasuke in the process, but the cost would have been huge.
@Baou:
he was always a spaz with no clear goal and was fickle.
His goal has been to become hokage from the very beginning. How is that not clear as crystal to you? He may eventually go above that, but that doesn't mean his goal has changed.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But let me just take the time to say, I agree with everyone…...Naruto used to be about the underdog prevailing, and I miss that theme. I mean, that's what got me interested in the manga in the beginning....to see Naruto try to accomplish this goal despite most of the village hating and/or being afraid of him. Hard work was got him by. But now......tsk.
Most Shounen manga out there have the main character being an underdog who prevails and eventually grows beyond that role.
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Most Shounen manga out there have the main character being an underdog who prevails and eventually grows beyond that role.
Point taken.
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I don't see why people keep claiming Naruto doesn't use his wits anymore. Read the Pain fight. He used his wits against Raikage and was using his brains to come up with something to get pass the jins.
@Mustard The lightning shield isn't the only thing that stopped it. The Raikage body isn't normal. Even the teleport jutsu didn't puta scotch on him
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@Mustard The lightning shield isn't the only thing that stopped it. The Raikage body isn't normal. Even the teleport jutsu didn't puta scotch on him
They said straight up that the only chance they had was with a wind attack. Can you guess why? Because in the Naruto world wind beats lightning, which is what powered the third raikage's defense. There's really no excuse why the rasenshuriken, a technique that surpassed the 4th hokage's power couldn't even get a scratch past a shield that was specifically weak against its element.
And then it was defeated by a lightning attack instead? One that was strikingly similar to the raikiri? I am not impressed, and I'm not naive enough to think that Naruto is without its flaws. It has several. I'd recommend you do the same, or your opinions will eventually be dismissed by people as fanboy rant.
If there's one theme Naruto is constantly fucking up, especially in this zombie war, it's that the next generation will always surpass the previous one. Fortunately it's not stressed very heavily, and I'm not sure if it ever really came up in part 1.
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This post is deleted!
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Hey, guess what? It seems that in the anime, the Gingou, Tsukishima, and Ichigo fight become the top rated video on youtube.
See the cameras?
! ![](http://randomc.net/image/Bleach2/Bleach - 353 - Large 14.jpg)
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Yeah, I had this argument before about how the tone of Part 1 is for the most part flipped in Part 2. That tone being destiny and fate are stupid things Naruto was shown to fight against.
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The Naruto vs. Neji fight set up this manga and its audience against the themes of Destiny and Fate. We liked that. We were against the thought of a person having to follow a predestined path because Naruto was against it, and that was cool. If you weren't against it then you were in the minority cheering for Neji and what he stood for. People liked this Naruto better.
! Naruto is not necessarily arguing against his overall destiny here, because like us he had no clue about it. What he IS arguing against though is the thought of Destiny and Fate being unavoidable. Now we have this Naruto.
! Him going down an unavoidable path of fate and accepting it. Him being made to go along with something that he initially thought of as "dumb" and "crap". Ooops, not so dumb anymore. Welcome to Part 2.
Naruto is and was always special. True, it was obvious (no matter how dumb or not dumb you believe the reveal was) that Naruto was the 4th Hokage's son. Also true, Naruto had the Kyubi's chakra (half of it at least) implanted in him at birth. We knew these 2 things fairly early in the series. Ok, that's all cool he's- Oh, and news flash! He's the Destined Child born to bring destruction or salvation to the Ninja World~ What? NOTHING in this manga prepared us for this until it was thrown in around the Pein Arc. Actually, it was first mentioned in the Jiraiya vs. Pein fight. The closest thing that comes to this being hinted at is the very end of Part 1 (Naruto vs. Sasuke) where Kakashi mentions perhaps Naruto and Sasuke share the same fate as Senju Hashirama and Uchiha Madara. Now jump from that to Naruto being the destined savior of the world and you're doing one hell of a leap.
Note: Even though Kakashi made a hint at Naruto and Sasuke sharing the same fate as their predecessors Naruto was famous for calling himself a "fool" because he wanted to SAVE Sasuke. Not kill him or forget about him, so again in Part 1 Naruto is going against a fate which others might call unavoidable.
In general I'm not against the themes of Destiny and Fate. I'm not necessarily against the tone of a manga changing especially as it evolves, most notably after a timeskip. These are all fine things but the problem here is the stark contrast of tones in Part 1 and Part 2. It's like Kishi looked at Part 1 and said, "The hell with that, this is the way it's going to be now." Then he throws a hail mary and hopes people like it. Alright, it's his manga and he can do what he wants with it but as you can tell it was not well received. Barring the fact that you might believe we're all out to hate Naruto no matter what and supposedly make shit up to pick on, my argument is coming straight from the manga itself and what I and others see as a problem. Btw, I like 'Naruto' and many people on this forum can quote me from past discussions. This change in tone from Part 1 to Part 2 is one of the flaws I never liked though. Also, a little more information I really loved Part 1 of Naruto and thought Part 2 was solid all the way up to the Pein Arc.
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The only solution I deem as necessary is a replacement character to maintain the theme. Such as Lee. It's a shame that it hasn't happened yet. And there's also the matter of translation to begin with. I've seen both "hard work will surpass talent" and "hard work is more important than talent". The latter hasn't really been broken by part 2 of the story, unless you assume that the sage training happened overnight.
You're giving part 2 far too much of the blame for this theme bit. If it's a mess now, it was a mess then. Naruto was always special, even Sasuke said as much straight up when they fought at the end of part 1. And I think Lee went about 0-3 in his fights during all of part 1. I consider this just another case of people wanting another reason to say part 2 is worse. It is, but at least be fair about the reasoning.
Fair point. It really hard to argue the hard work theme of Naruto when Rock Lee has yet to win a fight. He personified and embraced that theme and said it over and over, "that with hard work and training, even a low class guy can overcome the elite!" And, thats a theme Naruto himself DID share.
Yes, Naruto had the kyuubi, and the bloodline and heritage… but he didn't know that. As far as Naruto knew or cared, he was just this low class orphan kid... who wanted to be better than the elite. That was the message he endorsed... that was what he told Neji, "that you aren't stuck being what you were born as".
Lee was the embodiment of that theme, the "genius of hard work". And yes he was crushed and lost time and time again. But he keeps trying, keeps wanting to be better. The BIG MAIN THING of it all is.. Kishi did a fantastic job in humanizing Lee and showing his struggles. The audience sympathises too well with Lee. He had a great backstory, and we WANT to see him succeed, and do well. We want that ideal to be right, to be proven to be true... because earlier likeable Naruto, and to this day likeable Lee, were great fun characters... as opposed to asshole elitist snobs Neji and Sasuke, who we just want to see put in their place.
Also it doesn't hurt that Lee was the first character to truly kick ass and have an amazing fight sequence that promised the future full potential of the series (unfortunatley it remains the best fight in the series) and even further gates for Lee to master and become greater with, and even a little bit of a promise of a tragic end with that eighth gate.
The audience can root for a guy that works hard and struggles. And even Naruto DOES have training arcs, and had trouble early on... its when they get an instant powerup that isn't earned, like sage mode... (Or sharingan transformations) is when it feels cheap and weird. Kishi was so capable of creating likeable characters that we wanted to follow through to the end, want to see win, that even now, though its been hundreds of chapters since his last fight, we STILL want to see Lee in battle, STILL want to see him at his "hokage level potential... even if for just an instant."
And, most of the chunin exam kids were like that. Lee is the biggest most obvious example, but almost all the characters in that arc were embued with personality and unique abilities, hopes and dreams and quirks. And we saw more of that in the follow up arc when a handful of them went after Sasuke.
Even if Kishi isn't downright contradicting the hard work theme... it sure feels like it when he ignored all the characters that were training so hard before, and when ultimately they all say "yeah, we'd just get in the way." All these guys were Naruto's peers once, capable of handling elite agents of Orochimaru, all capable of growth and becoming great, and with interesting personalities... and that's what's been abandoned.
So its a dual problem. We aren't seeing those kids anymore, and all the work and effort and empathy they earned during the chunin exams, just feels completely squandered. Especially since in all of part 2, Kishi hasn't made anyone nearly as interesting to replace that cast, no one else we can root for or like in quite the same way.
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They said straight up that the only chance they had was with a wind attack. Can you guess why? Because in the Naruto world wind beats lightning, which is what powered the third raikage's defense. There's really no excuse why the rasenshuriken, a technique that surpassed the 4th hokage's power couldn't even get a scratch past a shield that was specifically weak against its element.And then it was defeated by a lightning attack instead? One that was strikingly similar to the raikiri? I am not impressed, and I'm not naive enough to think that Naruto is without its flaws. It has several. I'd recommend you do the same, or your opinions will eventually be dismissed by people as fanboy rant.If there's one theme Naruto is constantly fucking up, especially in this zombie war, it's that the next generation will always surpass the previous one. Fortunately it's not stressed very heavily, and I'm not sure if it ever really came up in part 1.
The Raiton armor went away after the attack through. His body tanked it just like it tanked Mubai teleportation. His body is what the 3rd Raikage was known for. The Chidori the Raikage use is far superior to Kakashi's. Just because wind has a advantage on lightning doesn't mean it can beat a higher level lightning attack. The 3rd Raikage spear is stronger then RS. Minato being the creator is a invalid point. What does him creating it mean?
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This is a very entertaining discussion Nobodyman and Mustard are having.
I'll have to get some more popcorn…
Well, since you enjoy it so much…
But Naruto has ALWAYS had a ridiculous mancrush on Sasuke. It's not as if it came out of nowhere one day. But yes, Kishimoto sucks with persuasive dialog. I think the placement of them is fine, but the actual conversation is usually pretty weak. But it's not always only supposed to be about the talking. Even in One Piece Luffy frequently wins people over with his determination alone. But the execution of it is normally handled better.
No, he didn't always have a mancrush on him. He had a rivalry with and some sense of respect for him, but not a mancrush. The thing is, this whole obsession Naruto has with Sasuke comes off as so awkward because I never got the sense that they were really friends. Every time they interacted, Sasuke was always insulting and looking down on him and Naruto responded with agitation. Yes, there were moments like the end of the Haku fight, but again, that was more of protecting-a-fellow-soldier kind of thing. They were comrades-in-arms at best.
I'm not sure I can say anything that wasn't explicitly explained in those chapters. She was annoying, but it was a short lived annoyance. Did it even last more than a chapter? I'd explain her thought process, but I'd probably just be quoting the manga line for line. At least she actually tried to take responsibility instead of just sitting there and crying and relying on others like Ino did, or simply hyperventilate and pass out like Naruto did. I would have been more disappointed with shit like that. Attempt and failure I can live with, even if it's not well thought out by the character. Being emotional will do that.
It made her look like a completely worthless and ineffectual character. Every single development for her character and her actions in that arc were godawful.
Perhaps, but it sounds to me like you've already decided that you're going to hate and piss on whatever happens ahead of time. It doesn't really stand a chance now, does it?
It's gonna take something really amazing for Kishi to make me like Sasuke again. And even if he does, it won't change my view of him these last 300 chapters.
To let people doubt it. Look in the mirror. Despite it being so stupidly obvious you didn't even think it was going to happen.
Did you doubt it? Seems like all Kishi's doing is confusing the audience, which isn't a good thing.
I'll help you. Neji sealed all Naruto's chakra holes, and Naruto had to use the fox's chakra to even be able to fight. The fox was a much smaller part of the victory against Gaara. It really just gave him the last little bit of chakra he needed to land the final blow. Kabuto cut some important chakra channel to Naruto's heart or something and claimed that even Tsunade couldn't save him. Then the fox showed up and gave him the boost that he needed to live through it. While it's true he lost to Sasuke, he still used the 9 tails as his trump card and was significantly stronger while using it.
Thanks. I don't really have anything to say.
No, but descendants of greatness are few and far between whether they're orphans or not. In the ninja world, most of them probably are. Since the true ninja heroes in the story are frequently remembered for giving their lives for the greater good.
Are all of them not told of their lineage and treated as commoners? And do they all become orphans when they're infants?
The only solution I deem as necessary is a replacement character to maintain the theme. Such as Lee. It's a shame that it hasn't happened yet. And there's also the matter of translation to begin with. I've seen both "hard work will surpass talent" and "hard work is more important than talent". The latter hasn't really been broken by part 2 of the story, unless you assume that the sage training happened overnight.
You're giving part 2 far too much of the blame for this theme bit. If it's a mess now, it was a mess then. Naruto was always special, even Sasuke said as much straight up when they fought at the end of part 1. And I think Lee went about 0-3 in his fights during all of part 1. I consider this just another case of people wanting another reason to say part 2 is worse. It is, but at least be fair about the reasoning.
Yeah, let's just go with what Robby said.
All of the hosts are feared by their own villages just for being hosts. This hasn't changed in the slightest bit during part 2. The only difference is that it features two hosts who've overcome that obstacle and won over their respective villages.
Not what I was talking about.
I also can't think of anything from part 1 that makes the balance of power concept a contradiction.
Because why would they let this powerful asset loose to be ridiculed and fend for himself and not make really damn sure that nothing goes wrong with him?
It appeared to be the case at the end of the Chuunin exam arc.
Was it stated that other villages use Jinchuurikis to create a power balance. Gaara doesn't count since he too was an exception.
Is there really a manga that's liked more than One Piece on this site? I find that hard to swallow on a site dedicated to it.
I'm not saying it's unanimous, I'm just saying there some people on this site who don't have One Piece as their favorite. I know some people have stated they like HxH more than One Piece.
I know plenty of people who don't like Naruto and hate Bleach yet still read both every single week. I barely know anyone who doesn't like HxH and still reads it.
Who are these people?
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Thanks. This is a great example of someone who's convinced themselves so heavily that Naruto has become awful that he has to contradict himself in a single paragraph to back it up. You complain that he doesn't use his wits anymore, and immediately follow it up with complaining about a fight he won by wits alone after brawn was ineffective. Fucking brilliant. And to claim that he doesn't work hard anymore is ridiculous beyond words. There are lots of legitimate complaints you could make about Naruto, but you come up with this crap.
I'll be nice and give you some help since you clearly need it. Rasenshuriken not working against a lightning shield was a ridiculous way to get to that point. He could have at least made the shield an earth based technique. That would have given Kishimoto an excuse for the 3rd raikage's attack to work when rasenshuriken didn't. But he didn't, and I couldn't defend against that even if I tried.
The raikage losing an arm was characterization that hasn't changed since. He's a hot blooded, aggressive bull of a fighter who's strong as shit. Gaara prevented him from likely killing himself. He may have defeated Sasuke in the process, but the cost would have been huge.
His goal has been to become hokage from the very beginning. How is that not clear as crystal to you? He may eventually go above that, but that doesn't mean his goal has changed.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Most Shounen manga out there have the main character being an underdog who prevails and eventually grows beyond that role.
Mustard you seem ass hurt.The obviously bad Naruto which sells less than the the glorious one piece is being nothing to get so angry about. I didn't contradict my self i'm saying they down played the Thirds intelligence to make it an easy victory for Naruto. Not only does it not make since for the third to just stand there and let Naruto counter without trying to avoid it. Though for him to keep spaming the same attack which is his only weakness. What happened to using your brain.
I mean of course it was PIS that naruto dumbass even asked about the scar but if the third was anymore telegraphed naruto would have received a letter of his next move in the mail. I mean he was basically a foward movin machine using the same technique over and over again. There's no fight anymore(unless sasuke is involved), it's more of a what easily avoidable trap will the zombies fall into next game.
And the fact that the raikage lost an arm is still idiotic. So what the cost is huge, he's fighting sasuke who invaded their meeting. Garra pulled an idiotic move, they could have weakened sasuke considerable and taken him into custody. Though that's not what they did. What did he do again?? He cried.
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Actually, Mustard ignore my post if you don't mind. Unless you want to debate about it, but I think we're talking about 2 different things. You discussing the theme of hard work surpassing natural talent. I'm discussing the theme of fate and destiny in the manga. Both themes kind of weave into each other and come into play during the Naruto vs. Neji fight which is why I even brought it up.
Also, I really don't want to have this debate again.
eyes UchihaMadara :ninja:
I did start though so if you want to finish it be my guest.
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Rock Lee manga is out on mangastream
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Rock Lee manga is out on mangastream
Yes!!! An early Christmas present! runs off to go read
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I just want Naruto to live up to its potential. Is that so much to ask?
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Rock Lee manga is out on mangastream
Hey, it's a Christmas miracle!
…didn't this manga have it's own thread at one point? It feels kind of lost in the Naruto/Bleach/possibly Fairy Tail thread, and frankly this was a hilarious chapter. Who'd thought you could get so much humor out of cranial abuse?
Oh yeah, and this author remembers Tenten's character motivations. That's pretty impressive. I hope that after Naruto ends that Kishi just leaves the end of Rock Lee and Co's story to this guy.
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LOLOLOLOL. Oh man, that chapter is the best Christmas gift ever. I'm surprised Tsunade didn't also beat up Neji for making her bald, though.
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Well, since you enjoy it so much…
No, he didn't always have a mancrush on him. He had a rivalry with and some sense of respect for him, but not a mancrush. The thing is, this whole obsession Naruto has with Sasuke comes off as so awkward because I never got the sense that they were really friends. Every time they interacted, Sasuke was always insulting and looking down on him and Naruto responded with agitation. Yes, there were moments like the end of the Haku fight, but again, that was more of protecting-a-fellow-soldier kind of thing. They were comrades-in-arms at best.
It made her look like a completely worthless and ineffectual character. Every single development for her character and her actions in that arc were godawful.
It's gonna take something really amazing for Kishi to make me like Sasuke again. And even if he does, it won't change my view of him these last 300 chapters.
Did you doubt it? Seems like all Kishi's doing is confusing the audience, which isn't a good thing.
Thanks. I don't really have anything to say.
Are all of them not told of their lineage and treated as commoners? And do they all become orphans when they're infants?
Yeah, let's just go with what Robby said.
Not what I was talking about.
Because why would they let this powerful asset loose to be ridiculed and fend for himself and not make really damn sure that nothing goes wrong with him?
Was it stated that other villages use Jinchuurikis to create a power balance. Gaara doesn't count since he too was an exception.
I'm not saying it's unanimous, I'm just saying there some people on this site who don't have One Piece as their favorite. I know some people have stated they like HxH more than One Piece.
Who are these people?
Naruto does not have a mancrush on Sasuke. Naruto is a pervert who tries to watch girls. Naruto just goes apeshit when friends are involve. If it was Sakura who left he would still be chasing her. Look how nuts he went over Gaara who tried to kill him once. Going 3 tails, almost losing control , and crying. Naruto goes apeshit over anybody he considers a friend. He has flaws that's what Shikiamaru and Kiba tries to tell him. Naruto just needs to mature out this crap through if he wants to be Hokage.
@ON2BetterThangz:Mustard you seem ass hurt.The obviously bad Naruto which sells less than the the glorious one piece is being nothing to get so angry about. I didn't contradict my self i'm saying they down played the Thirds intelligence to make it an easy victory for Naruto. Not only does it not make since for the third to just stand there and let Naruto counter without trying to avoid it. Though for him to keep spaming the same attack which is his only weakness. What happened to using your brain.
I mean of course it was PIS that naruto dumbass even asked about the scar but if the third was anymore telegraphed naruto would have received a letter of his next move in the mail. I mean he was basically a foward movin machine using the same technique over and over again. There's no fight anymore(unless sasuke is involved), it's more of a what easily avoidable trap will the zombies fall into next game.
And the fact that the raikage lost an arm is still idiotic. So what the cost is huge, he's fighting sasuke who invaded their meeting. Garra pulled an idiotic move, they could have weakened sasuke considerable and taken him into custody. Though that's not what they did. What did he do again?? He cried.
Naruto isn't usually a dumbass in battle situations. Gaara cried because he saw Sasuke has what Ur previously was. Tobi wouldn'be of allowed him to die anyways.
Actually, Mustard ignore my post if you don't mind. Unless you want to debate about it, but I think we're talking about 2 different things. You discussing the theme of hard work surpassing natural talent. I'm discussing the theme of fate and destiny in the manga. Both themes kind of weave into each other and come into play during the Naruto vs. Neji fight which is why I even brought it up.
Also, I really don't want to have this debate again.
eyes UchihaMadara :ninja:
I did start though so if you want to finish it be my guest.
Lol you know that's the reason I didn't respond. Shitstorm avoided
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Lol you know that's the reason I didn't respond. Shitstorm avoided
Exactamundo. Pages and pages of fun~
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Even here Tsunade is useless but I guess the gags wouldn't have worked if she was made to fight seriously...or fight at all. Pretty hilarious chapter. No Naruto in sight. I love this manga.
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Naruto does not have a mancrush on Sasuke.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
Naruto is a pervert who tries to watch girls.
That's just a cover. And when was the last time he did that anyway?
Naruto just goes apeshit when friends are involve.
Yeah, you know. Hyperventilation. Vowing to die alongside him. Not obsessive at all.
If it was Sakura who left he would still be chasing her.
No comment…..............pfft.
Look how nuts he went over Gaara who tried to kill him once. Going 3 tails, almost losing control , and crying.
You mean in part II? When Gaara wasn't evil anymore?
Naruto goes apeshit over anybody he considers a friend. He has flaws that's what Shikiamaru and Kiba tries to tell him. Naruto just needs to mature out this crap through if he wants to be Hokage.
No sign of that happening.
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Yeah, keep telling yourself that.
That's just a cover. And when was the last time he did that anyway?
Yeah, you know. Hyperventilation. Vowing to die alongside him. Not obsessive at all.
No comment…..............pfft.
You mean in part II? When Gaara wasn't evil anymore?
No sign of that happening.
He did it on the mission with Yamato. I agree with the hyperventilation too. It was stupid has hell. Doesn't matter Naruto hasn't seen Gaara for 2 years. Mostly knew him for trying to kill him and friends.
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He did it on the mission with Yamato.
Which one? The one in the Sai arc?
Doesn't matter Naruto hasn't seen Gaara for 2 years. Mostly knew him for trying to kill him and friends.
Where to begin?
1. It seems like you're contradicting yourself here. Why is Gaara his friend if he mainly knows him for attempting to kill him and his friends?
2. I'm pretty sure this is besides the point anyway. It makes sense for Naruto to get upset about Gaara because A: Gaara was a good guy at this point, B: Naruto sympathized with his plight as a Jinchuuriki, and C: Gaara was kinda….........dead.
Whereas with Sasuke, he's made it very apparent on several occasions that he has no desire to return to the village and he and Naruto never really had a friendship to begin with. The two scenarios are very dissimilar.
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Wow I actually forgot Tenten was a part of Lee's team. Reading the Springtime manga reminded me of this lol.
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Oh yeah, the new Rock Lee chapter was great. It's amazing how much characterization the writer(s) of this manga has given Tenten. As in, you know, more than none.
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Which one? The one in the Sai arc?
Where to begin?
1. It seems like you're contradicting yourself here. Why is Gaara his friend if he mainly knows him for attempting to kill him and his friends?
2. I'm pretty sure this is besides the point anyway. It makes sense for Naruto to get upset about Gaara because A: Gaara was a good guy at this point, B: Naruto sympathized with his plight as a Jinchuuriki, and C: Gaara was kinda….........dead.
Whereas with Sasuke, he's made it very apparent on several occasions that he has no desire to return to the village and he and Naruto never really had a friendship to begin with. The two scenarios are very dissimilar.
My point is he went apeshit for someone who tried to kill him and became a friend. Gaara wasn't dead yet.
Naruto would do the samethings if Sakura was the one to run away. It treats them all the same.Yea the Sai arc
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Huh…another chapter of springtime of youth just popped up. And it's adorable lol.
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Those Chapters were fucking Awesome!!
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i think i prefer the springtime of youth lol Lee's great
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I really did get a Subway coupon.
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Sasuke getting punched in the stomach is the best present I can think of.
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And 2 real Naruto's are out :
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Another Rock Lee chapter is out, too. :3
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I laughed multiple times outloud
and Tenten is actually …somewhat interesting I guess :o
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I didn't know sweat was a technique.
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Yes, Naruto and Sasuke are both totally straight and there isn't even the slightest bit of homoerotic tones in the whole series.
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Yep. Straight. There's a bunch more examples just like this.