I believe that when logia users are in their intangible state they are more resistant to haki attacks/damage is minimal but are subsequently and temporarily reverted to being tangible after being hit. When Rayleigh and Whitebeard sliced Kizaru he reverted to his physical state and was prevented from traveling at light speed but there was no cut.
General 'Haki' Discussion
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@Polygon: Sanji seemed fine and no attention was brought to it, and Luffy was no worse for the wear even while wedged in between the buildings so I'm gonna go with what we were shown instead of what you think. Also, Sakazuki didn't "heal" from anything, the guy just took the hits and they didn't hurt him much. You're skewing way too much in order for your little speculation to fit into some Ambition battle nonsense when nothing points to magmaman utilizing it any way when getting attacked.
And you said something about Newgate using the Armament Aspect against Borsalino, and I asked you to prove it using scans. Otherwise everything you're suggesting falls apart since it doesn't work.
He ain't skewing anything, and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't even agree with him
Akainu took a slash, and he was with a white gap covering the wounded region, instead of magma and/or blood
That is completely different -
It's no different aside from the hit actually hurting a little.
Magmaman just hadn't fully reformed himself yet when talking. Smoker(when Sanji kicked him at Lougetown), Crocodile(first fight with Luffy) and Ener(against Kamakiri) have done the same thing.
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It's no different aside from the hit actually hurting a little.
Magmaman just hadn't fully reformed himself yet when talking. Smoker(when Sanji kicked him at Lougetown), Crocodile(first fight with Luffy) and Ener(against Kamakiri) have done the same thing.
Yeah, but Akainu commented "these damn Haki users", heavily implying he got hit with a Haki-Imbued attack
That's where Polygon is coming from
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And that still does nothing to suggest Sakazuki used Ambition at all when getting hit.
Still waiting on the Borsalino stuff too. :ninja:
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@Polygon: Sanji seemed fine and no attention was brought to it, and Luffy was no worse for the wear even while wedged in between the buildings so I'm gonna go with what we were shown instead of what you think. Also, Sakazuki didn't "heal" from anything, the guy just took the hits and they didn't hurt him much. You're skewing way too much in order for your little speculation to fit into some Ambition battle nonsense when nothing points to magmaman utilizing it any way when getting attacked.
And you said something about Newgate using the Armament Aspect against Borsalino, and I asked you to prove it using scans. Otherwise everything you're suggesting falls apart since it doesn't work.
**He seemed fine because he didn't bitch about his, plus his superhuman endurance. Nothing suggests he healed from the stab during Thriller Bark and you have no evidence he did heal. Luffy healed, he was given time to heal. And you're right, Akainu never healed from anything because he was never hit in the first place. He either created a void where the attacks would have landed or used his own Haki to negate the attack bypassing his intangibility. Also, yes there is plenty supporting my theory that you can use Haki to negate Haki.
So that's what you meant. If Whitebeard didn't use Haki there would have been no reason for Kizaru to stop in the slightest since the attack wouldn't have affected him in the slightest. Not to mention common sense: Whitebeard was a very high level fighter and thus likely used Haki in every strike he could plus he knows Kizaru is a logia and that he'd need Haki to even touch him.**
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He seemed fine because he didn't bitch about his, plus his superhuman endurance. Nothing suggests he healed from the stab during Thriller Bark and you have no evidence he did heal. Luffy healed, he was given time to heal.
So having Sanji and Luffy both constantly running around and the lack of a gaping hole through their chest and stomach respectively doesn't show that they recovered somewhat at minimum. Hell it doesn't really matter since stuff like this happens all the time.
Awesome.
> And you're right, Akainu never healed from anything because he was never hit in the first place. Sakazuki wouldn't be complaining had Marco and Vista not hit anything.
> He either created a void where the attacks would have landed His reaction would be similar to Kuzan when Newgate tried to stab him if that were the case. No go.
> or used his own Haki to negate the attack bypassing his intangibility. Also, yes there is plenty supporting my theory that you ca use Haki to negate Haki. Post any scans which back this up. Not what you think, not a bad attempt at explaining.So that's what you meant. If Whitebeard didn't use Haki there would have been no reason for Kizaru to stop in the slightest since the attack wouldn't have affected him in the slightest.. Not to mention common sense: Whitebeard was a very high level fighter and thus likely used Haki in every strike he could plus he knows Kizaru is a logia and that he'd need Haki to even touch him.
You mean like:
-Smoker against Luffy's Jet Gatling
-Borsalino with Apoo
-Crocodile during the first fight with Luffy
-Kuzan at the beginning when Newgate quaked him
-Sakazuki when Crocodile cut him in halfOh wait these don't go with what you're suggesting, no wonder you didn't bring them up.
And again, I'm asking you post a page that shows Newgate using the Armament Aspect when attacking Borsalino. I don't want to see you attempting a convoluted explanation with nothing from the comic as a base. Show a scan or don't bother responding.
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Sakazuki wouldn't be complaining had Marco and Vista not hit anything.
Not necessarily, the panel didn't show him pain, more like annoyed
His reaction would be similar to Kuzan when Newgate tried to stab him if that were the case. No go.
Not necessarily, that has to do with their personalities, AoKiji was blocking off Whitebeard semi-non-chalanty
Akainu was in a hurry trying to get to Luffy, and getting annoyed at the fact he had to deal with Haki Users now -
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Here, WhiteBeard may Have just Used his Vibration Power to Distrub/Disperse That Light Path Kizaru use to Move.
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I think that wasn't Haki, it was just him cutting Kizaru so he couldn't fly over
Rayleigh did the same thing -
Its true that most injurires in one piece do just get shrugged off. But major injuries by powerful people do last. Take Zoro's scar for example which was iven to him during the course of the story and Luffy's new one too. I think Akainu having half his head blown of by Whitebeard will be one of the injuries that leaves a mark for rest of the manga.
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I think that wasn't Haki, it was just him cutting Kizaru so he couldn't fly over
Rayleigh did the same thingCutting Him and Not letting Him fly is a different thing.
Well anyway, All i could Say is Akainu and Aokiji Quickly changed the Body part which is about to be hit to their Elements, then accuartely shiftshapped That Part into a Form so that the Haki Attack could By pass it, thus giving us the Impression they Were Hit.
The Well-done Timing is probably due to the CoO. -
So having Sanji and Luffy both constantly running around and the lack of a gaping hole through their chest and stomach respectively doesn't show that they recovered somewhat at minimum. Hell it doesn't really matter since stuff like this happens all the time.
Awesome.
Luffy did heal, he was given time to. No indication Sanji did. That's all there is to it.Sakazuki wouldn't be complaining had Marco and Vista not hit anything.
His reaction would be similar to Kuzan when Newgate tried to stab him if that were the case. No go.Why do two people have to react the same way to the same thing?
Post any scans which back this up. Not what you think, not a bad attempt at explaining.
When Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji were hit by Haki users and were not damaged.
You mean like:
-Smoker against Luffy's Jet Gatling
-Borsalino with Apoo
-Crocodile during the first fight with Luffy
-Kuzan at the beginning when Newgate quaked him
-Sakazuki when Crocodile cut him in halfOh wait these don't go with what you're suggesting, no wonder you didn't bring them up.
-Smoker can't use Haki and wasn't disturbed at all.
-Kizaru wasn't disturbed at all, hell he wasn't even trying. Plus you can tell whether Haki is being used or not so he didn't bother.
-Croc wasn't disturbed at all and can't use Haki .
-Evidence suggests you can't put Haki into intangible things.
-He wasn't disturbed at all.And again, I'm asking you post a page that shows Newgate using the Armament Aspect when attacking Borsalino. I don't want to see you attempting a convoluted explanation with nothing from the comic as a base. Show a scan or don't bother responding.
**You realize you can't see Armaments Haki except in special circumstances right?
I proved to you he did use Haki and you're ignoring it because it doesn't suit you're argument.**
I think that wasn't Haki, it was just him cutting Kizaru so he couldn't fly over
Rayleigh did the same thingRayleigh used Haki. If it wasn't Haki it wouldn't have stopped Kizaru in the slightest.
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Luffy did heal, he was given time to. No indication Sanji did. That's all there is to it.
And there was nothing that showed they still had a hole through their bodies even before much time went by. That's the main thing we were arguing, since you were the one making a big deal about Sakazuki not having any kind of scar even though there's a lot of instances of a hit not leaving anything.
Seems like you're really grasping for straws here huh.
> Why do two people have to react the same way to the same thing? So no answer here either, got it.
> When Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji were hit by Haki users and were not damaged. You're not showing anything that backs this up.
Considering at least some attention is drawn to damage being done or even outright stated whenever Ambition is used the better conclusion to come to is that they weren't.
> -Smoker can't use Haki and wasn't disturbed at all. The guy braced himself before Luffy started attacking. Whether he can use Ambition or not is irrelevant since that's not what this particular argument was about.
Don't try to change what is being discussed.
> -Kizaru wasn't disturbed at all, hell he wasn't even trying. Plus you can tell whether Haki is being used or not so he didn't bother. It doesn't matter. You were the one who said that without Ambition a logia can't be slowed down at all. Obviously it worked if only for a couple seconds.
> -Croc wasn't disturbed at all and can't use Haki . Like Smoker, whether he can use Ambition or not is irrelevant.
Stay on-track.
> -Evidence suggests you can't put Haki into intangible things. Pistol Kiss
> -He wasn't disturbed at all. Sure got stopped enough for Luffy and Jinbei to get thrown to Buggy.> You realize you can't see Armaments Haki except in special circumstances right? The Armament Aspect isn't visible, what page was that? Show these special circumstances please.
> I proved to you he did use Haki and you're ignoring it because it doesn't suit you're argument. No, you're just saying he is without anything back it up. Throwing out blanket statements like "when a logia wasn't hurt" does nothing to confirm what you're trying to suggest.So please show a scan and stop repeating yourself.
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I didn't read the last couple of posts since they were getting long, so sorry if I am re-treading any ground already covered, but why not compare Akainu's situation with Marco and Vista to Kizaru's and Aokiji's with Rayleigh and Joz respectively. Ray cuts Kizaru's beam path in half and only a small cut appears on his cheek, while Aokiji is tackled from the side by Joz, shatters, and has a small amount of blood come from his mouth. We still don't know how effective haki is against logia users, relative to the given user's strength in said attribute, and can therefore only make baseless guesses on what should or should not happen. Right?
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You are correct for the most part. However even though we don't know a lot of things we do know enough to arrive at some conclusions. Most of these are really common sense, and not something that needs to be explicitly stated. For example, we know from the war that simply having Haki is not enough, that Haki is not going to be effective every time etc
And there was nothing that showed they still had a hole through their bodies even before much time went by. That's the main thing we were arguing, since you were the one making a big deal about Sakazuki not having any kind of scar even though there's a lot of instances of a hit not leaving anything.
Seems like you're really grasping for straws here huh.
**I don't know why you keep on saying "they", since I already said that Luffy did heal because he got the time to heal and we saw that he did.
Anyway, your logic is basically "we didn't see the wound so that much mean he healed." That is a very flawed way of thinking. Only because we didn't see the wound, does not mean it still wasn't there because we didn't get a good looks at the spot he was stabbed. Even if the wound remained it wouldn't necessarily be visible because of Sanji's clothes. If might have healed, but there's no proof it did. Unless you want to show me a page during Thriller Bark we get a clear shot at where the wound was supposed to be?**
So no answer here either, got it.
Like I said before, just because Aokiji responded one way to one thing does not mean Akainu has to respond the same way. They were in different situations and are different people.
You're not showing anything that backs this up.
Considering at least some attention is drawn to damage being done or even outright stated whenever Ambition is used the better conclusion to come to is that they weren't.
Do not make things up. Anyway, the idea that people like Whitebeard, Marco or Vista would be stupid enough to not utilize Haki against a logia is idiotic. Common sense tells us that Haki was being used in all their skirmishes with the Admirals.
The guy braced himself before Luffy started attacking. Whether he can use Ambition or not is irrelevant since that's not what this particular argument was about.
Don't try to change what is being discussed.
You made that up.
It doesn't matter. You were the one who said that without Ambition a logia can't be slowed down at all. Obviously it worked if only for a couple seconds.
Haki was obviously being used, we saw what happens to a logia when Haki or their natural weakness is not in use. They don't so much as fell it, Kizaru obviously felt obligated to stop for one reason or another. It was because Whitebeard was using Haki against him.
Like Smoker, whether he can use Ambition or not is irrelevant.
Stay on-track.
Pistol KissNo proof Pistol Kiss was imbued with Haki. If it hurt Luffy it's because it's sharp. There is a reason Whitebeard never put Haki into his quakes when he attacked from a distance or why Mihawk did not put Haki into any of his long distance slashes thus far.
Sure got stopped enough for Luffy and Jinbei to get thrown to Buggy.
He wasn't disturbed in the slightest. He was surprised by Croc being there and that's when Jimbei/Luffy were sent flying.
The Armament Aspect isn't visible, what page was that? Show these special circumstances please.
Did you miss the latest chapter? Luffy used Armaments Haki against the Pacifista.
No, you're just saying he is without anything back it up. Throwing out blanket statements like "when a logia wasn't hurt" does nothing to confirm what you're trying to suggest.
So please show a scan and stop repeating yourself.
A scan is not the only method of proving something. I have proven what I wanted to prove, and you are denying it solely because it doesn't suit your argument.
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I didn't read the last couple of posts since they were getting long, so sorry if I am re-treading any ground already covered, but why not compare Akainu's situation with Marco and Vista to Kizaru's and Aokiji's with Rayleigh and Joz respectively. Ray cuts Kizaru's beam path in half and only a small cut appears on his cheek, while Aokiji is tackled from the side by Joz, shatters, and has a small amount of blood come from his mouth. We still don't know how effective haki is against logia users, relative to the given user's strength in said attribute, and can therefore only make baseless guesses on what should or should not happen. Right?
Yeah I brought that comparison up to Thousand Lion-san about two pages back I think.
I don't know why you keep on saying "they", since I already said that Luffy did heal because he got the time to heal and we saw that he did.
Do you not read posts. Whether they got better or not isn't the point. Ignoring the Sanji example it still leaves Luffy even when wedged between buildings there was nothing from being gutted through by Lucci. You were making a big deal about how Sakazuki not having any scar or something points to him not being hit period, and I'm showing you why that's nothing special and does nothing to confirm him using Ambition at all when attacked by Marco and Vista.
Stop changing what the original argument was just because you can't address it.
> Anyway, your logic is basically "we didn't see the wound so that much mean he healed." That is a very flawed way of thinking. Only because we didn't see the wound, does not mean it still wasn't there because we didn't get a good looks at the spot he was stabbed. Even if the wound remained it wouldn't necessarily be visible because of Sanji's clothes. If might have healed, but there's no proof it did. Unless you want to show me a page during Thriller Bark we get a clear shot at where the wound was supposed to be? See above.
> Like I said before, just because Aokiji responded one way to one thing does not mean Akainu has to respond the same way. They were in different situations and are different people. So still nothing then.
> Do not make things up. Anyway, the idea that people like Whitebeard, Marco or Vista would be stupid enough to not utilize Haki against a logia is idiotic. Common sense tells us that Haki was being used in all their skirmishes with the Admirals. Yet that still seems to be the case. So unless you've got something aside from "DEY NO GIT HURT" we're pretty much done here.
> You made that up. Nope. Once Ambition was brought to the forefront, it was.-Shanks at the Moby Dick: Marco or Joz I think telling people with weak wills to get back.
-Garp hitting Luffy: Sanji wondering how that was possible.
-Luffy knocking out Momotaro: everyone's wondering what the hell happened.
-Rayleigh knocking out people in the Auction House: same as the above.
-Sentomaru hitting Luffy: him and Chopper wondering how he got hurt.
-Rayleigh kicking Borsalino: Brook and the others wondering how he was able to make contact when they couldn't.
-Hancock hitting Luffy: freaking out that a bullet attack went through him.
-Marigold and Sandersonia: wondering why he can feel pain from being squeezed in spite of being rubber and getting hit with the tail.There's more during Impel Down and Marineford.
> Haki was obviously being used, we saw what happens to a logia when Haki or their natural weakness is not in use. They don't so much as fell it, Kizaru obviously felt obligated to stop for one reason or another. It was because Whitebeard was using Haki against him. Yeah I already addressed with those examples.
So if you're falling back on "lol so obvious" it doesn't seem to show that you have anything backing it up.
Good to know.
> No proof Pistol Kiss was imbued with Haki. If it hurt Luffy it's because it's sharp. The name already tells us what it's supposed to be, and since it actually managed to go through Luffy instead of stretching like bullets are supposed to for someone who's a rubberman all signs point to Ambition.
> There is a reason Whitebeard never put Haki into his quakes when he attacked from a distance or why Mihawk did not put Haki into any of his long distance slashes thus far. So you admit they weren't constantly using it which is what you were claiming. Thanks for agreeing finally.Why you're bringing up distance I could care less, but either way it doesn't matter.
> He wasn't disturbed in the slightest. He was surprised by Croc being there and that's when Jimbei/Luffy were sent flying. You were the one going on about if Ambition isn't being used nothing should slow them down at all so that's irrelevant, he was still stopped if just for a couple seconds.> Did you miss the latest chapter? Luffy used Armaments Haki against the Pacifista. Yes, but it wasn't some visible thing. The steam was from Luffy using Gear: 2nd on his arm, the white lines are to show impact like always and the sparks are from hitting the Pacifista.
No visual cues point towards Ambition, only Sentomaru outright saying it does. It's never been a thing that can be seen.> A scan is not the only method of proving something. I have proven what I wanted to prove, and you are denying it solely because it doesn't suit your argument. You're literally saying you hold more clout than the comic itself does.
Yeah you're done.
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Do you not read posts. Whether they got better or not isn't the point. Ignoring the Sanji example it still leaves Luffy even when wedged between buildings there was nothing from being gutted through by Lucci. You were making a big deal about how Sakazuki not having any scar or something points to him not being hit period, and I'm showing you why that's nothing special and does nothing to confirm him using Ambition at all when attacked by Marco and Vista.
Stop changing what the original argument was just because you can't address it.
**A considerable amount of time had passed from the fight at the mansion to Luffy pushing the buildings apart. Invalid example.
Nothings suggests Akainu could heal from such a massive wound in such a short amount of time. The only logical conclusion is that he was never hit in the first place. The fact that his wound is dripping with magma proves this.**
So still nothing then.
No, I do have something. Something you choose to conveniently ignore because it doesn't suit your argument. Answer the question this time: Why do Akainu and Aokiji have to react the same way to the same thing?
Yet that still seems to be the case. So unless you've got something aside from "DEY NO GIT HURT" we're pretty much done here.
Give me proof Haki was not used in those examples then. Go ahead.
Nope. Once Ambition was brought to the forefront, it was.
-Shanks at the Moby Dick: Marco or Joz I think telling people with weak wills to get back.
-Garp hitting Luffy: Sanji wondering how that was possible.
-Luffy knocking out Momotaro: everyone's wondering what the hell happened.
-Rayleigh knocking out people in the Auction House: same as the above.
-Sentomaru hitting Luffy: him and Chopper wondering how he got hurt.
-Rayleigh kicking Borsalino: Brook and the others wondering how he was able to make contact when they couldn't.
-Hancock hitting Luffy: freaking out that a bullet attack went through him.
-Marigold and Sandersonia: wondering why he can feel pain from being squeezed in spite of being rubber and getting hit with the tail.There's more during Impel Down and Marineford.
Like I just said, there is no proof at all of your claim. To prove your claim, you'd have to somehow pinpoint all instances of Haki usage (which itself is impossible) and then show me where it was commented on. Not to mention that fact that Marco and Jaws both very clearly used Haki in the war and no one said anything about that. Hell, for all you know Vista used Haki when he blocked Mihawk.
Yeah I already addressed with those examples.
So if you're falling back on "lol so obvious" it doesn't seem to show that you have anything backing it up.
Good to know.
You're ignoring the manga. We have seen how logias respond to attacks not imbued with Haki (or otherwise utilizing seastone or their natural weakness). It doesn't affect them at all, they could walk right through the attack no problem. If Whitebeard wasn't using Haki, Kizaru wouldn't have had any reason to stop at all since the attack wouldn't have done anything to him.
The name already tells us what it's supposed to be, and since it actually managed to go through Luffy instead of stretching like bullets are supposed to for someone not a rubberman all signs point to Ambition.
Again, no proof it was imbued with Haki.
So you admit they weren't constantly using it which is what you were claiming. Thanks for agreeing finally.
It's likely they were constantly using it. It's just that you CAN'T put Haki into things like quakes or air slashes.
You were the one going on about if Ambition isn't being used nothing should slow them down at all so that's irrelevant, he was still stopped if just for a couple seconds.
Except Akainu didn't stop because he was hurt or even slowed down by the attack, he stopped because he didn't expect a giant blade to come at him and wanted to see who did it and/or where they were. He also kept on trucking, as opposed to Kizaru who flat out stopped.
Yes, but it wasn't some visible thing. The steam was from Luffy using Gear: 2nd on his arm, the white lines are to show impact like always and the sparks are from hitting the Pacifista.
No visual cues point towards Ambition, only Sentomaru outright saying it does. It's never been a thing that can be seen.
That's exactly what I said.
You're literally saying you hold more clout than the comic itself does.
Yeah you're done.
No, I'm saying that specifically showing something happening is not the only way to prove something. Using the proper types of reasoning can prove something not directly stated or shown. In the same way you do not have to actually show someone committing a crime to prove they are guilty.
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A considerable amount of time had passed from the fight at the mansion to Luffy pushing the buildings apart. Invalid example.
Not really, the majority of night time was spent in the Rocketman waiting for Kokoro to finish making it work again. Which is after Luffy's getting stuck.
> Nothings suggests Akainu could heal from such a massive wound in such a short amount of time. The only logical conclusion is that he was never hit in the first place. The fact that his wound is dripping with magma proves this. How can there be a wound if he wasn't hit.What is wrong with you man, you're saying not getting hit left a wound.
> No, I do have something. Something you choose to conveniently ignore because it doesn't suit your argument. Answer the question this time: Why do Akainu and Aokiji have to react the same way to the same thing? It doesn't change anything. You're the one that keeps bringing it up when it neither helps your point or refutes mine.
Pushing this just shows you don't have anything to fall back on.
> Give me proof Haki was not used in those examples then. Go ahead. You're the one making the claim that it is.Burden of proof is on you.
Debate 101.
> Like I just said, there is no proof at all of your claim. To prove your claim, you'd have to somehow pinpoint all instances of Haki usage (which itself is impossible) and then show me where it was commented on. Not to mention that fact that Marco and Jaws both very clearly used Haki in the war and no one said anything about that. Hell, for all you know Vista used Haki when he blocked Mihawk. Look, you're seriously using "Vista could have used it on Mihawk u never know derp" as legitimate proof to your claim. It does not work that way.> You're ignoring the manga. We have seen how logias respond to attacks not imbued with Haki (or otherwise utilizing seastone or their natural weakness). It doesn't affect them at all, they could walk right through the attack no problem. If Whitebeard wasn't using Haki, Kizaru wouldn't have had any reason to stop at all since the attack wouldn't have done anything to him. And you're ignoring that even with attacks not utilizing the Armament Aspect we've seen logias stop what they were doing. I even gave you examples yet you were too busy making up reasons even though it doesn't change the fact they didn't simply just keep on going.
> Again, no proof it was imbued with Haki. So an attack that was compared to a bullet going through what is supposed to be a rubberman, and having said rubberman comment on it isn't proof.
This is getting worse and worse for you.
> It's likely they were constantly using it. It's just that you CAN'T put Haki into things like quakes or air slashes. Except that was precisely what Newgate did to Sakazuki with quakes after Ace died.You're wrong.
**> Except Akainu didn't stop because he was hurt or even slowed down by the attack, he stopped because he didn't expect a giant blade to come at him and wanted to see who did it and/or where they were. He also kept on trucking, as opposed to Kizaru who flat out stopped.Reasons don't matter, you went on about how they don't stop yet they have.
You even just said Borsalino stopped, cmon man.
> That's exactly what I said. You mentioned special circumstances in which the Armament Aspect is visible. I asked you what they were and you link me to where it clearly isn't.
You're just helping me out now.
> No, I'm saying that specifically showing something happening is not the only way to prove something. Using the proper types of reasoning can prove something not directly stated or shown. In the same way you do not have to actually show someone committing a crime to prove they are guilty. Your whole argument is based from what wasn't shown.
That's what your problem is, one of many.**
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Not really, the majority of night time was spent in the Rocketman waiting for Kokoro to finish making it work again. Which is after Luffy's getting stuck.
A considerable amount of time was spent just looking for Luffy and Zoro.
How can there be a wound if he wasn't hit.
What is wrong with you man, you're saying not getting hit left a wound.
I never said there was a wound in the first place.
It doesn't change anything. You're the one that keeps bringing it up when it neither helps your point or refutes mine.
Pushing this just shows you don't have anything to fall back on.
Why do you keep on dodging the question? I'll say it again: Why do Aokiji and Akainu have to respond the same way to the same thing?
You're the one making the claim that it is.Burden of proof is on you.
Debate 101.
I said there is evidence suggesting my theory is correct, and I provided that evidence. Now it's your turn. Give me proof Haki was not used in the examples in question.
Look, you're seriously using "Vista could have used it on Mihawk u never know derp" as legitimate proof to your claim. It does not work that way.
Except it does work that way. How do you know Vista did not use Haki to block Mihawk's attack? Answer me that.
And you're ignoring that even with attacks not utilizing the Armament Aspect we've seen logias stop what they were doing. I even gave you examples yet you were too busy making up reasons even though it doesn't change the fact they didn't simply just keep on going.
No logia has ever been shown to be forcefully stopped by an attack that didn't involve Haki, seastone or their natural weakness. Stopping because they choose to (like with Akainu and Croc) is not the same as being forced to stop like with Whitebeard and Kizaru.
So an attack that was compared to a bullet going through what is supposed to be a rubberman, and having said rubberman comment on it isn't proof.
This is getting worse and worse for you.
No, it's not proof. Not in the slightest.
Except that was precisely what Newgate did to Sakazuki with quakes after Ace died.
Wrong. Whitebeard did not put Haki into his quakes, he used Haki to bypass Akainu's intangibility on contact and then hit Akainu with his quakes. Whitebeard has never been shown to put Haki into his quakes themselves.
You're wrong.
Reasons don't matter, you went on about how they don't stop yet they have.You even just said Borsalino stopped, cmon man.
Of course reasons matter. Especially here. And durr, I've been saying Kizaru stopped this entire time. Can you not read or something?
You mentioned special circumstances in which the Armament Aspect is visible. I asked you what they were and you link me to where it clearly isn't.
You're just helping me out now.
**You never asked me anything. All you said that was Luffy did this and that Armaments Haki has never been visible.
Anyway, it was visible when the Admirals used it to block the effects of Whitebeard's quakes.**
Your whole argument is based from what wasn't shown.
That's what your problem is, one of many.
Arguing using what hasn't been shown is a perfectly valid method of arguing.
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…you can't be this stupid.
Yeah someone can take this guy off his last legs if they want I'm done.
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It was interesting to read the first few replies but this is getting long and the feeling is, as if you two are going in circles.
Here is my take:
IMO you are both partially right.
1)
Marco and Vista were both using Haki while attacking Akainu/Sakazuki.
a) first hint is given by Sakazuki himself and his comment
b) the sheer fact, that if they would not be using Haki on a magma man, it would border on stupidity. Mostly because unlike the other two admirals your attack doesn't just do him no harm, but it would melt the leg(claws) of Marco as also swords of Vista, since he it is MAGMA.So yes, there is no 100% proof, mostly, in manga there is no 100% proof. But it would be ridiculous if we wanted everything to be explained by Oda or 100 characters, before we would accepted it as a fact. Otherwise next time we might as well start guessing are they really travelling the grand line or is it all just a dream…
2)
As Vanessa says/points out. You dont have to use Haki to "disturb" a Logia. Perhaps not damaging it. But disturbing it (stoping him/her for a while) seems to be an option.
Let me explain:
When we see people hitting for instance Aokiji/Kuzan, we see him shatter and than remodeling/regrouping particle by particle before the fight "resumes"(an example: Luffy fights Kuzan, Luffy shatters him…Kuzan reasambles himself only than he says: Ice Time and luffy is frozen....)
When we see people hitting Kizaru/Borsalino, same thing occurs.
(an example: Apoo attacks Borsalino with his DF… an explosion happens. Borsalino than reasambles and than proceeds to follow Apoo. Now an initial hint here is given. As Apoo attacks Borsalino, he uses the time between the hit and reasambling to try and make a run for it...only to be "surprised" by Borsalino's speed and than pwned...)
Now a notion. Again, we may think that may not be a case, and Logia can travel while dispersed, before reasambling which would equal in = a normal hit does nothing to logia and it all happens just for the visual effect in manga and so that a reader can follow manga more easily. However, I think we have seen enough to take it as a fact untill proven otherwise.
3)
As for Whitebeards attack on Borsalino. It is more complex
If we take the above and take it as a fact and go back to the situation:
So Kizaru tried to attack the scafold and Whitebeared tried to stop him. Ok.So going by what we know we can say this. He could have attacked him with a normal attack and prevented him to travel/do anything for that short time.
However, why would he use a normal attack if a Haki imbued would have done all that and more (would equal in damage to Borsalino)If there is a reason for that - than we dont know it yet (for instance, attacking with Haki would take more time WB didnt have, or he was running low on stamina/strength and in that short time event he just used a normal attack…)
Now the most confusing part if WB did use Haki, how come no damage was done. And lets not just use WB vs Borsalino case here, lets use Wb vs Kuzan as well as Rayleigh vs Borsalino.
a) WB vs Borsalino - so WB attacks Borsalino prevents him from travelling but doesn't do any damage
b) WB vs Kuzan. WB attacks Kuzan through his body yet again no damage
c) Rayleigh vs Borsalino. Ray prevents Borsalino from going after the SH by "seemingly" cutting off his "leg", yet again no damage is done to Borsalino.How come, were they not using haki? Was their Haki weaker than that of the attacked?
My guess/opinion is NO!I ll explain it like this:
- In all three cases haki was used (since the attackers knew fully well that their opponent is a logia)
- In all three casses the opponents used their logias abilities to disperse/reshape and avoid the attack.
And now we add into this equation the following two cases where damage to Logias is seen and is "considered normal" and would probably be equal even if for instance Luffy would stood in the place of a logia
example a) Kuzan is SURPRISED by the attack of Jozu. He shatters (like Ice would)on impact, but bleeds right after. Wouldnt Luffy as well?
example b) Rayleigh's second attack on Borsalino with the sword, if we look at the panel (in chapter 512 btw) we can see that his sword draws close to Borsalino's cheek and surprise, surprise in the very next panel we see him cut, at the cheek
Wouldnt Luffy be too?So my conclusion. "All" of the fighters (you know who I am thinking of) were using Haki when faced with Logia.
Since in all three cases Logias were Admiral level, no wonder they were not easily hit, therefor they dodged the seemingly mortal hits, however were hit on some ocasions which was seen -> resulting in their wounds.
And a notion at the end: No Logias dont absorb any of the Haki attacks or are super resistant to the Haki attacks, meaning, if a surprised hit with a Sword imbued with Haki would hit a Logia user, before he/she was able to dodge it would/could resulted in death of a Logia if hit at the right spot. -
I like the haki of luffy because looks like a complete weapon to defeat enemies.
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Well all of us know that luffy has haki right? He got Color of Arnaments, Color of Observation, and Color of Conquering.. But which type of haki has his crew mates after two years?
We can see that Usopp and Chopper might have Haki because Usopp asked Chopper "Did you guys take out all the Marines on your way here??" and Chopper responded "No.. but I heard a lot of voices leftover!!" which gives us an idea that maybe both of them have Conquer of observation.. What are your thoughts? Does this make sense?
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go in general Haki thread
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I agree with Para. This discussion can be had in the General Haki Discussion Thread.
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Ta Daaaaaaaaaaaa.
XD
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Conclusion: Haki doesn't actually cancel DF powers, but allows the real body to be attacked. However, Logia powers can still be used to lessen or avoid attacks.
The inane argument finally ends. What a waste of time, energy, and angst.
FFS it's entertainment, not a lecture on the Schrodingër wave function, so sit back and enjoy.
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Yeah no, you guys try way too hard to tie Ambition into every little thing.
Try again please, and not badly like with Zkaiser in the other thread.
Wait, what?
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As Vanessa says/points out. You dont have to use Haki to "disturb" a Logia. Perhaps not damaging it. But disturbing it (stoping him/her for a while) seems to be an option.
Let me explain: When we see people hitting for instance Aokiji/Kuzan, we see him shatter and than remodeling/regrouping particle by particle before the fight "resumes"(an example: Luffy fights Kuzan, Luffy shatters him…Kuzan reasambles himself only than he says: Ice Time and luffy is frozen....)
When we see people hitting Kizaru/Borsalino, same thing occurs.
(an example: Apoo attacks Borsalino with his DF... an explosion happens. Borsalino than reasambles and than proceeds to follow Apoo. Now an initial hint here is given. As Apoo attacks Borsalino, he uses the time between the hit and reasambling to try and make a run for it...only to be "surprised" by Borsalino's speed and than pwned...)
I agree with your explanation, but I think you should state its not all attacks that can stop a logia without haki, plus it also depends on the logia type.
Your example of luffy vs Aokiji only works because Aokiji is ice. Ice is not a flowing liquid or element, so depending on how strong someone is they could always slow Aokiji down in a way by shattering him. The same situation would not work against kizaru, Akainu, ace, smoker, etc because their bodies are flowing elements.
Then the second part that needs stated would be the type of attack done. The apoo situation is a good example of a para's with an non physical based attack. His power is pretty unexplained so it's hard to say why it worked in breaking kizaru's body apart.
I think it would be safe to say some Para fruits have an ability to touch whatever is within the users range. I could imagine if Law was fighting against Akainu, most likely he could switch akainu's body parts around because hes in his 'room' but it wouldn't hurt him.
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we see characters get stabbed and sliced through all the time and soon after a scar or even blood isn't shown.
Oda leaves characters bruised, and/or bloodied, to convey that a character actually was wounded though, and those signs of injury don't disappear within seconds/minutes.
For example, even Whitebeard himself evidently couldn't heal, and was drawn with his injuries, small and big alike, throughout the war.With that in mind, the characters ability to soldier on with serious injuries should imo be attributed to superhuman endurance, rather than regenerative powers.
In Akainu's case, despite Vista almost cutting his head of [[URL="http://manga.bleachexile.com/one-piece-chapter-574-page-7.html"]1], he didn't have any sign of injury in the following panel(s) [[URL="http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7510/akainui.png"]2, 3 (Chapter 575, page 4-5)]. Which suggest that he wasn't injured at all - at least to me, and evidently others as well.
With Borsalino, Newgate didn't seem to be utilizing Ambition against him any of the times he attacked with the bisento so that's covered. Unless you can somehow prove Newgate was using the Armament Aspect against lightman you've got nothing.
CoA (or Haki overall for that matter) is not always specifically highlighted though, and I personally suspect that Oda, through his initial confirmation when Haki was used, tried to convey that the top tiers consistently used Haki throughout the war - even when it wasn't directly pointed out to us.
Consequently, since I see absolutely no reason why Whitebeard shouldn't have empowered his attack with CoA against Kizaru, I think it's a reasonably assumption that he did.Logia-type Power Users are in the elemental state by default. It's what we've been shown throughout the comic.
While it may be the true for battle-ready logia-users, it's not generally the case. Specifically, rather than being in their elemental state by default, logia-users, who have reached a certain level of expertise, can activate their intangibility through reflex, and thus, enter their elemental state.
At any rate… While brennen is right that we can only make (educated ) guesses at this point, since much of Haki remains unknown to us, I think it's plausible that logia-users can use CoA to reinforce their intangibility. Specifically, they can use their own CoA to suppress the CoA in their opponents attacks, and thus, retain their intangibility against CoA empowered attacks - to varying degrees. Which would explain Whitebeard's, Marco's and Rayleigh's inconsistent success to bypass the Admirals intagnability.
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Oh, it seems he got actually injured, he keeps his white mark for a while
Nevermind then, thought he just avoided the attack -
reading the chapter 603 one more time,i see how Shakky comes close to Rayleigh and he did not notice until she said something.so i guess good coo(or coa) users can HIDE their presence
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reading the chapter 603 one more time,i see how Shakky comes close to Rayleigh and he did not notice until she said something.so i guess good coo(or coa) users can HIDE their presence
Or she has some kind of ability that allows her to appear somewhere at will, which would explain why he didn't detect her approaching… And also would explain how in one panel Rayleigh is alone, and immediately after that there is a panel with she standing by his side and talking to him...
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Now that luffy could use haki, I wonder if CoA able to protect him against sword attack or anything sharp ( since CoA is some kind of invisible armor ) or even magma punch.
because I cant see how luffy could defeat Akainu with only dodging. -
Yeah Luffy will be untouchable now with CoA
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Yeah Luffy will be untouchable now with CoA
Luffy could hit Boa sisters if I'm not mistaken. There's limit to how strong someone's haki is, I guess. So I take that as "untouchable" by weaklings and fodders.
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We've yet to see a persistent, external use of haki. So while I can see that Luffy might be able to block some magma or a sword, nothing we've seen so far suggests he'd be able to do so for more than an instant at best.
Even then, we've seen that haki can be overcome with brute force, if there's enough. And if it was a sword there'd the very real possibility the person is putting haki into it. So it might be a viable last option, but not something to rely on.
That's assuming he has the mastery necessary to instantly form CoA armor over the spot the attack is coming to.
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So I was reading through some parts of the manga earlier, and I stumbled on something mildly interesting.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v34/c320/16.html
Luffy says "Ouch!" as Aokiji stomps on him. EARLY PROOF THAT THE ADMIRALS USE HAKI?!?!?!
…probably not, hahaha
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So I was reading through some parts of the manga earlier, and I stumbled on something mildly interesting.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v34/c320/16.html
Luffy says "Ouch!" as Aokiji stomps on him. EARLY PROOF THAT THE ADMIRALS USE HAKI?!?!?!
…probably not, hahaha
Whoa! Mangafox carries One Piece now! Since when?
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Now that luffy could use haki, I wonder if CoA able to protect him against sword attack or anything sharp ( since CoA is some kind of invisible armor ) or even magma punch.
because I cant see how luffy could defeat Akainu with only dodging.I've been wondering this too, how will the armor work, I think we need to see more fights to figure this out
it can't be too ridiculous though, otherwise va's hurting white beard will seem stupid
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Whoa! Mangafox carries One Piece now! Since when?
For a while now. A long while? idk, I don't normally use it.
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I've been wondering this too, how will the armor work, I think we need to see more fights to figure this out
it can't be too ridiculous though, otherwise va's hurting white beard will seem stupid
He sticks his palm out and frontal attacks are repelled unless strong enough to push through. See Sentoumaru's repelling his attack. He didn't make physical contact with Luffy so Luffy should be able to repel sword strikes and even magma punches once he is tough enough to spar with an Admiral.
I don't see any evidence CoA protects their entire body or the force push gesture looses a lot of meaning. Attacking from below, above, and definitely behind should get around the armor. Don't know what WB has to do with this. He didn't attempt to defend himself from those high ranked fodder and he seemed to only use his quakes to defend against Akainu.
Wonder if we'll see a variant of Gatling with Luffy attacking open palmed instead of with fists. Open palm strikes seem the logical way to safely strike people like Magallen or Akainu.
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I still somewhat wonder how it would be possible to store Haki within inanimate objects, allowing them to harness its power, as the Kuja tribe did with their arrows…O_o
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So I was reading through some parts of the manga earlier, and I stumbled on something mildly interesting.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v34/c320/16.html
Luffy says "Ouch!" as Aokiji stomps on him. EARLY PROOF THAT THE ADMIRALS USE HAKI?!?!?!
…probably not, hahaha
Of course the Admirals use haki.
It was displayed first when Garp used his fist of love, imbued with haki, which got past Luffy's rubber invulnerability to pain, and the same definitely happened with Aokiji.
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Of course the Admirals use haki.
It was displayed first when Garp used his fist of love, imbued with haki, which got past Luffy's rubber invulnerability to pain, and the same definitely happened with Aokiji.
not necessarily. That would imply that nami has been able to use Haki since the very beginning, as she is always able to cover Luffy in bruises and such, whenever she beats him for comical reasons.