To be honest I play BOTH factions to see the entire game.
But I have like 3 Horde 80s…
So.
[hide]FOR THE HORDE~!!!!!!![/hide]
To be honest I play BOTH factions to see the entire game.
But I have like 3 Horde 80s…
So.
[hide]FOR THE HORDE~!!!!!!![/hide]
How's that Garrosh thing working out for you, Rican?
He's still not in charge YET but I've liked his story arc and pedigree since day one.
I can't say I'm a fan of his personality thou… but he's infinitely better than King Varyan (I honestly join PvP raids JUST so I can slay the fucker).
Plus his new character model is BEAST.
[hide][/hide]
He looks like a bad carnival prize.
King Varian is a TRUE KING.
Garrosh is an untested mouth-breather. I hope Vol'jin puts an arrow in his ass.
XD
Oh my~
A Varian fan?
Yikes dude…
The dude reeks of xenophobia.
In his defense every bad thing in his life is directly or indirectly the hordes fault.
Old Horde mind you.
The demon blood fueled Orcs.
The new Horde (outside of the Forsaken and The Burning Crusade Arc Blood Elves) are actually pretty mellow.
I find the humans and elves more villainous in the grand scheme of things.
Draenei and Tauren are easily the good guys regardless of faction.
Old Horde mind you.
The demon blood fueled Orcs.
The new Horde (outside of the Forsaken and The Burning Crusade Arc Blood Elves) are actually pretty mellow.
I find the humans and elves more villainous in the grand scheme of things.
Draenei and Tauren are easily the good guys regardless of faction.
He was forced to fight as a Gladiator by Rehgar Earthfury.
One of Thrall's closest friends and advisors.
Mmmyeah.
Varian has EVERY legitimate reason to hate the Horde you can possibly imagine.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not really a Varian fan, it's just… people sure do like to dog on him when:
The Horde took over his kingdom, killed his father, turned him into a gladiator and made him fight for sport, bungled peace talks repeatedly, allowed Wrathgate to happen thanks to Sylvanas (who was blatantly developing a new plague to destroy the living), put people like Garrosh in positions of leadership… I mean, come on. He's xenophobic? Dude has legit reasons to not like the Horde. At least give him props for giving Saurfang (who should be the new Warchief, by the way) his due respect. Especially when you've got folks like Thrall who (love him though I do), does NOT have control over his own faction like he should. Northrend proved that a thousand times.
I'm familiar with the Gladiator stuff… but if we're gonna judge the entire Horde based just that.
Well.
Look no further than the Defias Brotherhood.
Or the Dark Iron Dwarves.
Illidan Stormrage.
Etc etc.
I'm not saying Orcs (or the Horde) is a bunch of happy go lucky tree hugging hippies or anything lorewise.
But Humans and anyone else, OUTSIDE of Draenei, really has no business calling X or Y evil.
Shit, even the Gnomes of all people have their own atrocious crimes.
Edit: The events at the Wrathgate were machinations of the Burning Legion WITH the Grand Apocathery... Sylvannas was being forced out of power with that treachery.
That would be like blaming the Alliance for all the shit Lady Prestor did.
I'm familiar with the Gladiator stuff… but if we're gonna judge the entire Horde based just that.
Well.
Look no further than the Defias Brotherhood.
Or the Dark Iron Dwarves.
Illidan Stormrage.
Etc etc.
I'm not saying Orcs (or the Horde) is a bunch of happy go lucky tree hugging hippies or anything lorewise.
But Humans and anyone else, OUTSIDE of Draenei, really has no business calling X or Y evil.
Shit, even the Gnomes of all people have their own atrocious crimes.
Edit: The events at the Wrathgate were machinations of the Burning Legion WITH the Grand Apocathery... Sylvannas was being forced out of power with that treachery.
That would be like blaming the Alliance for all the shit Lady Prestor did.
Several sources, including Forsaken questlines, but especially a chapter from the Arthas novel, flat out confirm that Sylvanas was 100% aware of what kind of plague she was making - she personally oversaw its creation and tested it on a human and forsaken criminal, swearing to slay all humanity with it. The only thing you can say about it in her defense is someone went behind her back and used it before she could. Real smart, trusting a Dreadlord.
I mean, she had a Dreadlord as her closest advisor. What is the Alliance supposed to think?
And now in Cataclysm, she's apparently
! …using the Valkyr to make new undead, and blatantly using the plague that Putress developed and GARROSH ordered her to stop using on Gilneas and Southshore... hard to defend, my friend.
What the Defias Brotherhood or the Dark Irons do, by large, does not affect the Horde or the stability of the world all that much. You can't really compare them with the actual leadership of the Horde, and how it appears to Varian and the other Allied faction leaders.
Varian lets Saurfang get his dead son, so there's that.
Back up back up.
As a forsaken player I am WELL aware (and this is why I said forsaken were evil) that Sylvannas and the Forsaken are responsible for the plague.
What they are NOT responsible is unleashing death @ the Wrathgate.
That was purely a rebelious faction of the Forsaken allied with Varimathras working towards a goal with the Burning Legion.
I'd be like a terrorist cell grabbing an American made Nuke and launching it to Korea.
Surely you can't expect the U.S. to be blamed for the attack.
Right?
I never understood how It was possible that the forsaken joined the new horde to begin with. It was always clear that the forsaken shouldn't be trusted, and yet they joined the horde, while Thrall was the current chieftain of the horde, and a pretty benevolent and good leader.
On the other hand, he also allowed warlocks in the new horde, anyway…
@iSheep:
I never understood how It was possible that the forsaken joined the new horde to begin with. It was always clear that the forsaken shouldn't be trusted, and yet they joined the horde, while Thrall was the current chieftain of the horde, and a pretty benevolent and good leader.
On the other hand, he also allowed warlocks in the new horde, anyway…
This.
Not to mention the Burning Crusade Era Blood Elves.
That was some bad shit that went down.
Thankfully they're not QUITE as bad (the magic addiction is controlled at least).
I might join up after the new EP/Patch is done..
after watching numerous commercials,films,and more YT wow stuff.. i may join up and be either a Tauren,Gnome,or Dranei
at least the Mohawk grenade event is over
This.
Not to mention the Burning Crusade Era Blood Elves.
That was some bad shit that went down.
Thankfully they're not QUITE as bad (the magic addiction is controlled at least).
At least the undead have a excuse for being sinister and dark, because, well, they are fuckin' undead and have no soul.
The blood elves on the other hand have shown interest in the dark arts, trapped a holy being in their capital town and are leeching its magic.
Thrall must have been high on crack when he signed these contracts.
Seriously, why would allow someone who is clearly EVIL (forsaken) or just batshit crazy addicted (blood elves) to join their ranks.
@iSheep:
At least the undead have a excuse for being sinister and dark, because, well, they are fuckin' undead and have no soul.
The blood elves on the other hand have shown interest in the dark arts, trapped a holy being in their capital town and were leeching its magic.
Thrall must have been high on crack when he signed these contracts.
Seriously, why would allow someone who is clearly EVIL (forsaken) or just batshit crazy addicted (blood elves) to join their ranks.
Fixed.
You also forgot the Gnome slaves they have ;V
woah, really? When did that happen? So, they are, in fact, now without a magic source?
Seriously, the horde needs someone with clearly good intentions again, like the Tauren. With the blood elves and forsaken, they do look clearly like the evil faction. The goblins are just too neutral.
@iSheep:
woah, really? When did that happen? So, they are, in fact, now without a magic source?
Seriously, the horde needs someone clearly good again, like the Tauren. With the blood elves and forsaken, they do look clearly like the evil faction. The goblins are just too neutral.
Oh wow dude…
The Sunwell got reactivated when Kil'Jaeden was trying to come out.
Velen along with the dying Naaru that they had enslaved re-ignited the light.
The Blood Knights swore their old ways of and accepted the Sunwell along with the Light as their only source of power (outside of Locks using fel energy that is).
This was all at the VERY end of The Burning Crusade.
Fuck, my knowledge of the lore really did shrink during the last years.
I probably should stop talking shit about it and finally start this game again.
As a lycan, of course.
About that…
Just keep in mind the Worgen from Vanilla are NOT the Gilneas Worgen.
Two completely different types of Worgen.
But I agree... I wanna make a new Worgen 8D
Back up back up.
As a forsaken player I am WELL aware (and this is why I said forsaken were evil) that Sylvannas and the Forsaken are responsible for the plague.
What they are NOT responsible is unleashing death @ the Wrathgate.
That was purely a rebelious faction of the Forsaken allied with Varimathras working towards a goal with the Burning Legion.
I'd be like a terrorist cell grabbing an American made Nuke and launching it to Korea.
Surely you can't expect the U.S. to be blamed for the attack.
Right?
Sylvanas was either incredibly naive or I dunno what. I'm not necessarily saying she could have anticipated the takeover, but as far as what happened at Wrathgate goes, she can't not be held partially responsible: she was crystal clear about what her intent was for making the plague in the first place.
Revenge on Arthas, and revenge on the living.
In your example it would be like Americans making that Nuke to be USED on North Korea: something everyone was absolutely clear on, and having those terrorists hijack it and used it before the government could - and some of America's allies were caught in the blast.
America was gonna use that nuke - the terrorists just used it first.
I mean, the proof is in Sylvanas STILL using it in Cataclysm despite being ordered not to, isn't it? And using it to do exactly what she wanted to in the first place - death to the living, make more Forsaken.
Old Horde indeed. Varian's got good reasons, bro.
America was gonna use that nuke - the terrorists just used it first.
Hiroshima says hi.
We don't have over 500 active nukes just for lulz…
<--- happened to work with nuclear weapons for six years.
Sylvanas was either incredibly naive or I dunno what. I'm not necessarily saying she could have anticipated the takeover, but as far as what happened at Wrathgate goes, she can't not be held partially responsible: she was crystal clear about what her intent was for making the plague in the first place.
Revenge on Arthas, and revenge on the living.
In your example it would be like Americans making that Nuke to be USED on North Korea: something everyone was absolutely clear on, and having those terrorists hijack it and used it before the government could - and some of America's allies were caught in the blast.
America was gonna use that nuke - the terrorists just used it first.
I mean, the proof is in Sylvanas STILL using it in Cataclysm despite being ordered not to, isn't it? And using it to do exactly what she wanted to in the first place - death to the living, make more Forsaken.
Old Horde indeed. Varian's got good reasons, bro.
But America did make that nuke to be used on North Korea, they made the nukes to be used on whoever is our enemy at the time. No one was making nukes and saying this one is only for _____ and that one is only for _____. The same goes with the plague. It was intended for all the enemies of the Forsaken, living or dead. The Plague is basically a Nuke and the Forsaken are mass producing and stockpiling it to use on whoever their enemies happen to be. We all know what nukes are for, we knew that when we were making them. It doesn't make us any more responsible for what happens to the nuke if it is hijacked and launched at a country. Whether the country is an ally or an enemy the nuke will still do it's job and we are still not responsible for it, responsible for it getting hijacked yes, but where it was used, no.
The same goes with the plague. It was intended for all the enemies of the Forsaken. You can't point fingers at Sylvanas for what Varimathus did like she was singling out anyone. Had he taken the plague and used it on the denizens of the Undercity would your comparison still hold up even though Sylvanas still has the same amount of control over the situation in both scenarios.
Also i still wouldn't call the Forsaken evil. I thought she had gone to far with ressing the dead to keep building her army but in the Intro to the Forsaken zone you see that whoever she revives has free will to join the Forsaken or not. Some immediately choose to just go back to being dead. Also the entire Forsaken mentallity is a result of being abandoned and betrayed by their former allies just because they are percieved to be evil so they seem justified in their actions to me. It's no worse than the mentality of the xenophobic Night Elves who treated every other race like they were primitive scum until they lost their immortality and had to seek allies to stay alive.
There is a lot of grey area in warcraft lore and i don't think any of the factions is evil. Evil is completely based on perspective and i think each race is just doing what they feel is best to insure their survival. If i was Sylvanas i'd still be making the plague too seeing how Garrosh treats her. Lots of grey. If you're seeing factions in black and white you're not looking at the lore hard enough.
But America did make that nuke to be used on North Korea, they made the nukes to be used on whoever is our enemy at the time. No one was making nukes and saying this one is only for _____ and that one is only for _____. The same goes with the plague. It was intended for all the enemies of the Forsaken, living or dead. The Plague is basically a Nuke and the Forsaken are mass producing and stockpiling it to use on whoever their enemies happen to be. We all know what nukes are for, we knew that when we were making them. It doesn't make us any more responsible for what happens to the nuke if it is hijacked and launched at a country. Whether the country is an ally or an enemy the nuke will still do it's job and we are still not responsible for it, responsible for it getting hijacked yes, but where it was used, no.
The same goes with the plague. It was intended for all the enemies of the Forsaken. You can't point fingers at Sylvanas for what Varimathus did like she was singling out anyone. Had he taken the plague and used it on the denizens of the Undercity would your comparison still hold up even though Sylvanas still has the same amount of control over the situation in both scenarios.
Also i still wouldn't call the Forsaken evil. I thought she had gone to far with ressing the dead to keep building her army but in the Intro to the Forsaken zone you see that whoever she revives has free will to join the Forsaken or not. Some immediately choose to just go back to being dead. Also the entire Forsaken mentallity is a result of being abandoned and betrayed by their former allies just because they are percieved to be evil so they seem justified in their actions to me. It's no worse than the mentality of the xenophobic Night Elves who treated every other race like they were primitive scum until they lost their immortality and had to seek allies to stay alive.
There is a lot of grey area in warcraft lore and i don't think any of the factions is evil. Evil is completely based on perspective and i think each race is just doing what they feel is best to insure their survival. If i was Sylvanas i'd still be making the plague too seeing how Garrosh treats her. Lots of grey. If you're seeing factions in black and white you're not looking at the lore hard enough.
Poor, poor innocent Sylvanas.
I appreciate the shades of grey in Warcraft lore. I love the orc's history, storylines, very personal struggles - I love what goes on with the Horde far more than I do what goes on with the Alliance, truth be told. Sucks to be a blood elf, sucks to be a forsaken. They really have had tragic histories and have tried to cope with them in their own way. I love that the Alliance has wackjobs like the Scarlet Crusade, and that the Defias Brotherhood arose out of the greed of Stormwind's nobility (with a healthy dose of help from Onyxia). Thrall and Saurfang (and judging by his actions in Cataclysm, Vol'jin) are probably hands down some of my favorite characters in the game, even though I've never played Horde.
That being said, this argument has never, ever been about whether or not the forsaken are evil or not. Go back and find where I said they were if you think that's the case.
Rican called Varian xenophobic, and I'm saying…. can you blame him? After what he's experienced in his life, after all the things he's been through, and after his interactions with the Horde both old and new, he looks into his neighbor's yard and sees Sylvanas using the plague that killed Bolvar Fordragon, on humans, and Gilneans. A plague just like the Lich King's. And that Thrall - who everyone keeps trying to tell him good things about - put Garrosh in charge.
The Horde does not do itself any favors.
He can hate the Orcs all he wants.
I get that.
But the Tauren!?
Seriously…
He hates the Horde as a whole... and that's too extreme for ANY leader.
Why the honorable and noble Tauren work happily alongside douches like the Forsaken and Blood Elves is kind of a mystery to me.
He can hate the Orcs all he wants.
I get that.
But the Tauren!?
Seriously…
He hates the Horde as a whole... and that's too extreme for ANY leader.
Lol I dont like Tauren models much either, I actually have an Alliance that I made to see the Alliance side of the story before the Cataclysm hits, will be a troll Druid in he expansion, really not a fan of Tauren/Nelf models even if I actually like their lore and heroes and I liked them on Warcraft 3 even now I like Tauren but if I have to choose in the horde its; Orc>Goblin>Troll>Belf>Tauren>Undead.
Orcs are just to awesome.
Undead also have potential but I just hate their bodies with gear,etc.
Im actually hoping the revamp of the races when its done, makes the race that I dont really see me using getting a better model, so its more like if I can choose I rather not use a Tauren/Undead.
For the Alliance I would say:
Dwarf>Worgen>Gnomes>Draenei>Nelf>Human
Dwarves are just awesome If I could have one of the alliance races on the Horde it would be them, Worgen are pretty nice and the gnomes/draenei arent bad, Nelf and Human are my correspondents to Undead in the alliance side if I had to choose I would choose other races, ofc my Druid had to be Nelf since theres is no other option.
Oh and btw Varyan fans? I though the dude had no fans, Garrosh is 50/50% on the Horde side and he is badass mostly in Cataclysm from what I played in the beta, problem was random whiners whining in the forums and making up 30 diferent stories made people or easy influenced people hate the dood, I also wanted to punch him in the face in Nagrand but right now he isnt annoying at all, Im liking his character development rather then make up stuff like people have been doing to keep the hate lol, the killing of the general in Stonetalon and the entrance to Twilight Highlands is just awesome.
He basicly cleaves a huge dragon.
Silence whats up with the Blood Elves? they arent the corrupted assholes they were anymore after Kael died and we rarelly see Taurens with Undeads, Garrosh and the rest of the Horde is not very pleased with them and their ways latelly, I consider Sylvanas evil right now and something will probably happen in the future.
I dont see why Varian should be Xenophobic/Racist(Kinda racist here its diferent races) against Gnomes and Dwarves, they been allies of the alliance for years, he might be doubting Worgen/Draenei/Nelfs but not Dwarves and Gnomes and those other 2 races well, one of them were humans before and the other two are pretty peacefull I really think he doesnt need to act like that but the character has also developed and he isnt like that as much as before but seems like he is having double personality issues with his Lo'gash persona from what the new books says( a guy put up a summary on MMO-Champ).
The Blood Elves have done nothing to endear themselves to anyone. Warcraft elves in general are the paragons of not learning lessons very well.
High elves have the same magical addiction problems the Blood Elves did. Know what they do? DEAL WITH IT. Temper themselves through meditation and discipline. The Blood Elves turned to demonic energy - and to their great peril, because if there's anyone who never learned their lesson about not fucking around with magic, it's the elves - first the night elves, then the highborne, then the high elves, then the blood elves. Their possible redemption via the restoration of the Sunwell is largely because M'uru felt bad for them, not because they earned it. Though I actually like the Blood Elf aesthetic and storyline (it's as tragic as the Forsaken's) and look forward to see some character development from them!
…When Blizzard remembers that they and the Draenei exist. lol
The Blood Elves have done nothing to endear themselves to anyone. Warcraft elves in general are the paragons of not learning lessons very well.
High elves have the same magical addiction problems the Blood Elves did. Know what they do? DEAL WITH IT. Temper themselves through meditation and discipline. The Blood Elves turned to demonic energy - and to their great peril, because if there's anyone who never learned their lesson about not fucking around with magic, it's the elves - first the night elves, then the highborne, then the high elves, then the blood elves. Their possible redemption via the restoration of the Sunwell is largely because M'uru felt bad for them, not because they earned it. Though I actually like the Blood Elf aesthetic and storyline (it's as tragic as the Forsaken's) and look forward to see some character development from them!
…When Blizzard remembers that they and the Draenei exist. lol
They changed their atititude, they now "work" for Adal just like the Draenei did you not see the end of The burnning crusade…?(being sarcastic).
They have changed their ways, maybe you have that impression because of blizzard not giving a shit about Lorthemar and make him a significant hero just like the other race leaders.
To me they changed, they arent ruled by demonic magic anymore, heck they even have warriors now(they had rogues but wtv), fighters that dont even use magic in battle.
To me they changed a lot and yeah I would like if Blizzard actually expanded the Draenei lore a litte in terms of their Azeroth integration, on the beta we have now some Blood Elves camps around the maps etc, even if its not big bases that I would like to see(really like their architecture) alteast they got something, the Draeneis got absolutelly nothing besides an upgraded in their tiny base in Swamp of Sorrows it actually has those Draenei houses from the Outland.
I want more development for the Blood Elves and Draenei though, I dont get for example why their zones gets unnafected and arent part of Azeroth, seriously they can just change the maps to the Eastern Kingdoms map, the expansion stuff doesnt make sense anymore, people will be able to go to Gilneas and Azshara without the expansion so it should be the same for Ghostlands and Bloodmyst isles, people who dont have the expansion cant level higher then 60 and make a Blood Elf or Draenei so that really doesnt make any diference in my opinion, anyway with this I mean that they could have revamped their zones also and show their "progress" after their conflits were resolved just like they did with the other races, we cant even fly in Azuremyst/Bloodmyst/Eversong/Ghostlands because of the laziness of moving 5 maps to the Eastern Kingdoms servers.
The only "evil" race right now its the Undeads to me, they are really starting to loose control and becoming more and more like the Lich King, just like Garrosh tells Sylvanas in Silverpine after she starts ressing undeads from humans corpses, it is justifiable since they cant reproduce but yeah its the exact same thing the Lich King was doing, destroying lands, raising people has undead and plaguing everything.
Poor, poor innocent Sylvanas.
I appreciate the shades of grey in Warcraft lore. I love the orc's history, storylines, very personal struggles - I love what goes on with the Horde far more than I do what goes on with the Alliance, truth be told. Sucks to be a blood elf, sucks to be a forsaken. They really have had tragic histories and have tried to cope with them in their own way. I love that the Alliance has wackjobs like the Scarlet Crusade, and that the Defias Brotherhood arose out of the greed of Stormwind's nobility (with a healthy dose of help from Onyxia). Thrall and Saurfang (and judging by his actions in Cataclysm, Vol'jin) are probably hands down some of my favorite characters in the game, even though I've never played Horde.
That being said, this argument has never, ever been about whether or not the forsaken are evil or not. Go back and find where I said they were if you think that's the case.
Rican called Varian xenophobic, and I'm saying…. can you blame him? After what he's experienced in his life, after all the things he's been through, and after his interactions with the Horde both old and new, he looks into his neighbor's yard and sees Sylvanas using the plague that killed Bolvar Fordragon, on humans, and Gilneans. A plague just like the Lich King's. And that Thrall - who everyone keeps trying to tell him good things about - put Garrosh in charge.
The Horde does not do itself any favors.
I never said she was innocent
But Varian has been shown to be as pigheaded as Garrosh. He shouldn't be angry with Thrall's decision when much of it has to do with Varian's own overblown reactions during the WotLK. Also the Lich Kings Plague killed people and raised them as undead, Sylvanas's plague just kills. Thrall was nothing but nice to Varian for the entire Expansion and all he got in return was a bunch of arrogant xenophobic whining. The meeting in Theramore goes wrong Varian is the first one to point fingers, Wrathgate happens and Varian is the one who declares war even though Thrall was also fighting in the Undercity so it was obviously out of Horde control, they meet for Ulduar and Varian is just as bad if not worse than Garrosh because he's supposed to be a leader. Thrall left Garrosh in charge because Varian is basically the Alliance version of him and the Horde was crying out for a leader that would be as much of a warrior.
So yes you can blame him. Humans and Dragons also played large part in his kidnapping and almost the ruin of his entire kingdom but i don't see him bearing any grudge against his own faction. He seems to be able to recognize friend from enemy and makes excuse if the enemy is human but he stops making those excuses once we start talking about orcs. You don't see Thrall or Saurfang holding such a huge grudge against all humans because of the internment camps.
Who else has Betaa~~?
Who else has Betaa~~?
I have, said it in my posts .
Im in Mekkartorque(eu), Warrior named Usoppn .
You don't see Thrall or Saurfang holding such a huge grudge against all humans because of the internment camps.
Quoted for the fucking Truth.
Not ONCE has Thrall bitched about that.
And well he should.
Considering that Greymane and others wanted to kill the orcs instead he probably sees how much worst it could have been.
Heck Varien was the one voting to show mercy after the two wars, after stormwind was destroyed, and his father assassinated.
It took his wife's death, his enslavement, and Bolvar, who not only his friend, but practicality raised his son, for him to become such an angry person. I'm not saying he's right, but he has reasons.
Whoa the intro was just posted. Very impressive.
Wq4Y7ztznKc
@Capt:
Considering that Greymane and others wanted to kill the orcs instead he probably sees how much worst it could have been.
Heck Varien was the one voting to show mercy after the two wars, after stormwind was destroyed, and his father assassinated.
It took his wife's death, his enslavement, and Bolvar, who not only his friend, but practicality raised his son, for him to become such an angry person. I'm not saying he's right, but he has reasons.
Whoa the intro was just posted. Very impressive.
Wq4Y7ztznKc
Awesome.
The horde didnt do anything to Bolvar it was the LK plus we are talking about inter faction racism, but Varian changed as well the Alliance part of ICC to kill Saurfang Jr. shows it.
Well the forsaken plague killed him. And while you and me know the truth all he knows is horde catapults began firing on the alliance army during a temporary truce.
Also
0b97YaqcnQM
@Capt:
Well the forsaken plague killed him. And while you and me know the truth all he knows is horde catapults began firing on the alliance army during a temporary truce.
Also
0b97YaqcnQM
Putress betrayed Sylvanas, it wasnt Sylvanas or even the Horde that did it.
And we know that. He doesn't.
There's a surprising incident in Cata regarding Sylvannas and the plague that you see in the Worgen starting area, however. I just don't really trust any of the Forsaken entirely.
As much as Garrosh is trying to get on everyone's bad side, I hope in the end he'll manage to do the right thing and bring the Horde into unity. Thrall chose him for a reason, and I don't think Thrall would make such a huge err in judgment.
Word from GC and other game designers is that by the end of Cata, Horde players will actually like Garrosh 100%.
Take that for what you will.
Also… Varian would KNOW if he sat the fuck down and listen.
=\
There's a surprising incident in Cata regarding Sylvannas and the plague that you see in the Worgen starting area, however. I just don't really trust any of the Forsaken entirely.
As much as Garrosh is trying to get on everyone's bad side, I hope in the end he'll manage to do the right thing and bring the Horde into unity. Thrall chose him for a reason, and I don't think Thrall would make such a huge err in judgment.
I did the zone what suprise? its what I said Garrosh told her repeatedly to not use plague but she keeps using it behing his back.
By the way their zones are just amazing, Silverpine/Gilneas quests and Hillsbrad/Alterac are really fun and Silverpine/Gilneas is very "rich" lorewise.
Garrosh has kinda of a change of heart, Stonetalon shows he is not a ravaging beast who kills innocent people, he learned in Northrend from Saurfang a lot, its just that people dont really want to accept either by Thrall fanboism(wich I am one) or pure bandawagoning Im hating Garrosh cause its the cool stuff to do.
The dude is even funny in the introduction to Twilight Highlands he just cleaves a huge dragon and goes down with his Zepelin I loved the scene, yes with the patches progression he should get more fans hopefully.
Capt Haggis, doesnt he know that by now? I though he did, specially since seeing that Saurfang kid suffered the same fate or an identical fate.
Obviously Saurfang's son proved to Varian that there were victims on both side of this, or he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.
People are as disposed to hate Varian as they are to hate Garrosh. They ignore what they don't want to hear and accept what they like. Both Garrosh AND Varian have made very plain their intentions to war - the difference? At least Varian made multiple attempts to make peace - despite the fact that the Horde, old and new, had basically killed everyone he'd ever loved save his wife (his father, Anduin Lothar, Bolvar Fordragon).
The first time he tried he was kidnapped by the Defias en route to Theramore to discuss Horde / Alliance relations, and when he escaped he was turned into a Gladiator in Orgrimmar.
The second time he tried he was attacked by the very orc that killed his father in a peace summit with Thrall.
The third time he lost Bolvar and countless Alliance soldiers to the Forsaken's plague - which, in the defiled Undercity, he discovered the Forsaken had been developing for years, from experiments conducted on countless living human beings. How could Thrall have not known?
And the third time he tried he was insulted and rushed by Garrosh, who at the time embodied everything he hated about orcs.
I mean, I like the fact that Garrosh is getting character development and changing into a more capable leader. I'm actually kind of annoyed that we know this stuff now, instead of finding it out over the course of time (I consider betas a necessary evil, don't like 'em). But compared to anyone else…? Garrosh doesn't really have an excuse to be such a warmonger outside of him wanting glory. NOR has he earned to right to insult Thrall, Vol'jin, Saurfang, Varian, and every other more seasoned warrior than he that he comes across. I mean, at least Varian (apparently) has the excuse of having had his personality split in two and struggling with that.
Give credit where credit is due: you couldn't give Varian more reasons to not want to cooperate with the Horde - not when it's bitten him in the ass so often and so thoroughly.
Garrosh, on the other hand... doesn't have such a good reason to be a jerk.
Obviously Saurfang's son proved to Varian that there were victims on both side of this, or he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.
People are as disposed to hate Varian as they are to hate Garrosh. They ignore what they don't want to hear and accept what they like. Both Garrosh AND Varian have made very plain their intentions to war - the difference? At least Varian made multiple attempts to make peace - despite the fact that the Horde, old and new, had basically killed everyone he'd ever loved save his wife (his father, Anduin Lothar, Bolvar Fordragon).
The first time he tried he was kidnapped by the Defias en route to Theramore to discuss Horde / Alliance relations, and when he escaped he was turned into a Gladiator in Orgrimmar.
The second time he tried he was attacked by the very orc that killed his father in a peace summit with Thrall.
The third time he lost Bolvar and countless Alliance soldiers to the Forsaken's plague - which, in the defiled Undercity, he discovered the Forsaken had been developing for years, from experiments conducted on countless living human beings. How could Thrall have not known?
And the third time he tried he was insulted and rushed by Garrosh, who at the time embodied everything he hated about orcs.
I mean, I like the fact that Garrosh is getting character development and changing into a more capable leader. I'm actually kind of annoyed that we know this stuff now, instead of finding it out over the course of time (I consider betas a necessary evil, don't like 'em). But compared to anyone else…? Garrosh doesn't really have an excuse to be such a warmonger outside of him wanting glory. NOR has he earned to right to insult Thrall, Vol'jin, Saurfang, Varian, and every other more seasoned warrior than he that he comes across. I mean, at least Varian (apparently) has the excuse of having had his personality split in two and struggling with that.
Give credit where credit is due: you couldn't give Varian more reasons to not want to cooperate with the Horde - not when it's bitten him in the ass so often and so thoroughly.
Garrosh, on the other hand... doesn't have such a good reason to be a jerk.
Thrall and Jaine wanted peace(and interacial fun(atleast Thrall)), not Garrosh and Varian…
Garrosh respects Saurfang and Thrall, read the quest in Stonetalon he talks about Saurfang and him giving him advices, etc Garrosh basicly wants to lead the Horde to victory and honor his father after Thrall actually told him the actual story of what happened, he acted like a stupid kid rushing stuff and he still does like in the quest to enter the Highlands but he has developed to a more honored/capable leader mainly tks to Saurfang advices while in Northrend, Saurfang is actually according to the lore the boss of the Horde forces in Northrend now.
Plus we cant pass judgement of everything that happened yet, since we dont know about everything that will happen in the pre-cataclysm events.
Thrall and Jaine wanted peace(and interacial fun(atleast Thrall)), not Garrosh and Varian…
Garrosh respects Saurfang and Thrall, read the quest in Stonetalon he talks about Saurfang and him giving him advices, etc Garrosh basicly wants to lead the Horde to victory and honor his father after Thrall actually told him the actual story of what happened, he acted like a stupid kid rushing stuff and he still does like in the quest to enter the Highlands but he has developed to a more honored/capable leader mainly tks to Saurfang advices while in Northrend, Saurfang is actually according to the lore the boss of the Horde forces in Northrend now.
Plus we cant pass judgement of everything that happened yet, since we dont know about everything that will happen in the pre-cataclysm events.
Man you sure do hear what you want to hear.
To quote the WoWwiki, since I don't feel like redownloading (and suffering through) the chapters of the comic to quote it directly:
At Theramore[[URL="http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat!"]14], Varian and Thrall had a peaceful discussion with an eye toward mutual gain. They first talked of their pasts and then discussed resource problems; like the Horde's war against the night elves for lumber. Varian offered to provide Thrall's people with lumber and in exchange the Warchief offered copper and exotic hides in return.
Varian was wary, but he and Thrall got along just fine and things were going swimmingly until the Twilight Hammer and a brainwashed Garona showed up - and Garrosh accused him of setting the whole thing up to lure Thrall and him into a trap. They wanted peace just fine until then.
Garrosh insulted Thrall in the past - several times, in the comics and in game, calling him a "weak warchief" and challenging him to a duel if you don't recall, and spoke insolently with Saurfang before Saurfang told him he'd kill him if he lead the Horde down a "dark path."
It's clear from these Cataclysm questlines that he is changing for the better. I feel like I've said this at least in every post for the past few pages.
I'm talking about now. I'm talking about how people compare him to Varian and say they're the same when they just aren't.
This is easily the best discussion about WoW Politics I've ever seen…
Also on a sidenote.
My lock just did 9.4k dps in medium gear, tank and spank encounter, and in a NON ICC raid.
I am happy ^^;
Hmm I forgot jaina took you to org to speak to thrall, but would he believe that?
His problem he seen too much of the old horde, and only the battle loving side of the new horde. He can seek peace, but he could easily belive the worse of them.
Still he and Garrosh are doing there job, Putting the war back in warcraft.
My question is what will happen to garrosh in the end. I'm betting either he die for someone, or someone will die for him. Some Thrall maybe. Either way he's going to have a new outlook on life.
In a way, it would be good to have Allaince and Horde warring each other - it's just stupid to have them warring each other while also fighting a bigger threat, be it Arthas, Deathwing, Old Gods or the Legion.
War is good. To quote Chilton (i think) "It's World of WARcraft, not World of Pillowfightcraft."
Obviously Saurfang's son proved to Varian that there were victims on both side of this, or he wouldn't have reacted the way he did.
People are as disposed to hate Varian as they are to hate Garrosh. They ignore what they don't want to hear and accept what they like. Both Garrosh AND Varian have made very plain their intentions to war - the difference? At least Varian made multiple attempts to make peace - despite the fact that the Horde, old and new, had basically killed everyone he'd ever loved save his wife (his father, Anduin Lothar, Bolvar Fordragon).
The first time he tried he was kidnapped by the Defias en route to Theramore to discuss Horde / Alliance relations, and when he escaped he was turned into a Gladiator in Orgrimmar.
Not the Horde's fault. If he hadn't been such a poor leader the Defias would've never gained power the way they did.
The second time he tried he was attacked by the very orc that killed his father in a peace summit with Thrall.
And he immediately blamed Garrosh even though Garona was Mind Controlled. Only him and Garrosh lost their heads at that meeting. Thrall, Jaina, and the others all kept a level head until the city was clear of Twilight Cultist. The Leader of the horde was attacked by the Cultist as well but Thrall didn't become enraged and auto-blame humans even though the Twilight Council has done more to damage the Horde than any other group in Orc history. I can see why Varian got mad but one of the first quest you get from Thrall is about dealing with cultist, he obviously hates them passionately but he never let it get the best of him there. It was Varian alone who through away the chance for peace.
The third time he lost Bolvar and countless Alliance soldiers to the Forsaken's plague - which, in the defiled Undercity, he discovered the Forsaken had been developing for years, from experiments conducted on countless living human beings. How could Thrall have not known?
And Thrall lost Saurfang Jr and countless Horde soldiers to the same plague. Much of Alliance history is built on shady backdoor politics that it's laders were not aware of until it was too late. Onxyia herself held a high position in Stormwind for ages manipulating the Human kingdoms like they were toys. How could Bolvvar not have know? Thas just the way it is sometimes but the fact remains that the Horde did not attack those Alliance soldiers anymore than where ever the defias attack humans it's an act of Stormwind.
I'll finish this later, i have to go for reasons out of my control…
Not the Horde's fault. If he hadn't been such a poor leader the Defias would've never gained power the way they did.
And he immediately blamed Garrosh even though Garona was Mind Controlled. Only him and Garrosh lost their heads at that meeting. Thrall, Jaina, and the others all kept a level head until the city was clear of Twilight Cultist. The Leader of the horde was attacked by the Cultist as well but Thrall didn't become enraged and auto-blame humans even though the Twilight Council has done more to damage the Horde than any other group in Orc history. I can see why Varian got mad but one of the first quest you get from Thrall is about dealing with cultist, he obviously hates them passionately but he never let it get the best of him there. It was Varian alone who through away the chance for peace.
And Thrall lost Saurfang Jr and countless Horde soldiers to the same plague. Much of Alliance history is built on shady backdoor politics that it's laders were not aware of until it was too late. Onxyia herself held a high position in Stormwind for ages manipulating the Human kingdoms like they were toys. How could Bolvvar not have know? Thas just the way it is sometimes but the fact remains that the Horde did not attack those Alliance soldiers anymore than where ever the defias attack humans it's an act of Stormwind.
I'll finish this later, i have to go for reasons out of my control…
Bolvar, and the nobles of Stormwind, were being manipulated by an extremely powerful DRAGON with extremely powerful magic. Deathwing's daughter. How can you not remember that it was Onyxia that put the Defias in power?
Thrall was blithe to the entirety of the Forsaken plagueworks, and their experimentations on humans to develop it. The Forsaken. His allies. A plague that had been in the making for YEARS. And I KNOW you aren't saying that the Forsaken that were experimenting with the plague weren't "part of the Horde." Undercity is FILLED with open areas where humans are used for sport, target practice, and experiments. They were as much a part of it as the RAS - they just didn't expect to be betrayed by their own.
And I know you're not gonna say that Onyxia in disguise manipulating Bolvar and the nobles is the same as Varimathras and his open-partnership with Sylvanas in developing this plague. Come on: they're just not the same scenario.
Anyway, as it happens, plot summaries for The Shattering - the pre-Cataclysm novel, have started cropping up on the internet. Here is Thrall's side of the story (SPOILER ALART).
! Oh, look at that. Varian and Thrall agreed to a truce post-Northrend. Oh hey, look at that: even when the night elves are attacked, he "sends a message to Thrall stating that he demands an apology, an open condemnation of the attacks, a reaffirmation of his support of the truce, and finally that he send the offenders to Wrynn personally to meet Alliance justice." Varian throwing away peace, is he? Because to me it looks like diplomacy reigns.
..But what a jerk, anyway, that Varian guy.