Wars have been fought for more (emphasize on more) stupid things so…
So many people dying (in this case they are also willing to pass away for aces life) wouldn't be that absurd here. It only sounds so bad from the mathematical point of view :)
Chapter 572 "The Times They Are A-Changin'" Discussion
-
-
I didn't say that fodder doesn't count. My original point was that if Oda can't kill off named guys here because he has other plans for them later down the story, then he could simply create other guys who's only purpose is to die here in the war. Like he did back then at Arabasta with the Tsumegeri guard.
And wintergt's response to that was that such a thing wouldn't work because it would mean that Newgate would trade Ace's life for many others. The thing is though that this is exactly what's happening unless of course he thinks that nobody else besides Newgate dies.
The Tsumegeri guard WERE fodder. On the same level of those Hyoubantai at Enies Lobby. I don't think any author has specifically created characters JUST to kill them to prop up a war:/
It's undeniable many people have died though, you even saw them die though you didn't see the gory details. Like when the Pacifista rampaged and eliminated everyone on a Marine ship.
-
seeing how much love and thoughts oda gives for each chara he creates it would kinda be against his philosophy..
even tsumegeri-guards had the purpose to show how much they loved their land and that they fought for it with all they had..even when this means sure death for them.. -
Its funny how people believe that WB might actually not die.
-
@Thousand:
The Tsumegeri guard WERE fodder.
Huh? My point was that the Tsumegeri were fodder and that I'd love to see something like them in the war (or other arcs) too. I fail to see why are you saying that to me.
I don't think any author has specifically created characters JUST to kill them to prop up a war:/
A war is just one specific scenario in which people can die. And other authors have created characters for no other reason but to dying in a matching scenario. Togashi would be the first name that pops into my mind here.
It's undeniable many people have died though, you even saw them die though you didn't see the gory details. Like when the Pacifista rampaged and eliminated everyone on a Marine ship.
The thing is that in One Piece I really can't take anything of that serious anymore thanks to the large track of even fodder making it out alive like at Skypiea where all 650 of Gun Fall's men survived or W7/EL where not a single member of the Franky Family died neither to Rucchi's attacks nor to the Buster Call bombardment. It's good for you if you can really look at those panels and think that those people died (no sarcasm) but I personally simply can't find myself to even remotely feel that somebody's dying here. For me One Piece lost that specific flair long ago, which is why I'd like to see named fodder that does nothing else but dying on screen as was the case with the Tsumegeri Guard.
-
Once again, the war wasn't about Ace, it was about the pride of the pirates versus the Marines and teaching a lesson and saying "don't start thinking you can get away with attacking one of mine." That was the entire point in Impel Down when Ace was begging to be killed and Garp told him "It doesn't matter if youre killed now, Whitebeard's wrath can't be quelled." That was also the entire point of Buggy being unwilling to mess with a sleeping Ace 300 chapters ago.
You do not mess with ANYONE that bears the Whitebeard flag, pure and simple.
If it had been Marco, Joz, Vista, or random deckhand #257, Whitebeard's wrath would still have been incurred at the attacking of one of his own. the starting result would have been about the same… except obviously Luffy wouldn't have gotten involved, which would have led to very different results.
That Ace was so imporant, had Roger's bloodline, is the hope as the nex tpirate king, and ties to our main lead are all huge factors for us, and for the storytelling... but in theory any of WB's kids being attacked would have led to the same result. Obviously, random deckhand #247 wouldn't have meant anything to Blackbeard or the goverment, and probably not a lot of the other new world pirates, and so wouldn't have been nearly the same calibur of bait, but it should have meant the same to Whitebeard.
War wasn't about Ace, or he would have been killed in prison. It was about Whitebeard, and it was about the principle.
-
And precisely because of that, if WB dies in the next several chapter by saving his sons, there won't be any clear "victor" or a "loser" of this war.
WB pirates achieved their primal objective of saving Ace, and Marines will achieve their most crucial objective of ridding Whitebeard. It's a win and a loss for both sides.
-
The war in Kids Next Door: Operation Z.E.R.O. >>> One Piece War.
-
Huh? My point was that the Tsumegeri were fodder and that I'd love to see something like them in the war (or other arcs) too. I fail to see why are you saying that to me.
Thought you meant named characters whose sole reason is to die not named fodders.
A war is just one specific scenario in which people can die. And other authors have created characters for no other reason but to dying in a matching scenario. Togashi would be the first name that pops into my mind here.
Fair enough but bothering to develop characters whose sole purpose is to kill them off to make a war look good is a bit much…
The thing is that in One Piece I really can't take anything of that serious anymore thanks to the large track of even fodder making it out alive like at Skypiea where all 650 of Gun Fall's men survived or W7/EL where not a single member of the Franky Family died neither to Rucchi's attacks nor to the Buster Call bombardment. It's good for you if you can really look at those panels and think that those people died (no sarcasm) but I personally simply can't find myself to even remotely feel that somebody's dying here. For me One Piece lost that specific flair long ago, which is why I'd like to see named fodder that does nothing else but dying on screen as was the case with the Tsumegeri Guard.
But the Tsumegari Guards' deaths were as off-screen as those poor souls eliminated by the Pacifistas:/
-
The thing is that in One Piece I really can't take anything of that serious anymore thanks to the large track of even fodder making it out alive like at Skypiea where all 650 of Gun Fall's men survived or W7/EL where not a single member of the Franky Family died neither to Rucchi's attacks nor to the Buster Call bombardment. It's good for you if you can really look at those panels and think that those people died (no sarcasm) but I personally simply can't find myself to even remotely feel that somebody's dying here. For me One Piece lost that specific flair long ago,
I feel exactly the same way, my explanation was just about where it seems to be that Oda's heading. A lot of fodder should have died from all the pacifista/cannons/Akainu bombardments and fighting, but this will probably simply be ignored (like in the alabasta war) and any sort of named death, however desireable they might be to make this war look more real, will most likely not happen, because it would elicit "omg no, X died!" responses and that will only be reserved for WB, at best. Atleast that seems to be where Oda is going (again), if it were to be any other way, he would have already let a bunch of named people die..
-
@robbybedfart:
Once again, the war wasn't about Ace, it was about the pride of the pirates versus the Marines and teaching a lesson and saying "don't start thinking you can get away with attacking one of mine." That was the entire point in Impel Down when Ace was begging to be killed and Garp told him "It doesn't matter if youre killed now, Whitebeard's wrath can't be quelled." That was also the entire point of Buggy being unwilling to mess with a sleeping Ace 300 chapters ago.
You do not mess with ANYONE that bears the Whitebeard flag, pure and simple.
If it had been Marco, Joz, Vista, or random deckhand #257, Whitebeard's wrath would still have been incurred at the attacking of one of his own. the starting result would have been about the same… except obviously Luffy wouldn't have gotten involved, which would have led to very different results.
That Ace was so imporant, had Roger's bloodline, is the hope as the nex tpirate king, and ties to our main lead are all huge factors for us, and for the storytelling... but in theory any of WB's kids being attacked would have led to the same result. Obviously, random deckhand #247 wouldn't have meant anything to Blackbeard or the goverment, and probably not a lot of the other new world pirates, and so wouldn't have been nearly the same calibur of bait, but it should have meant the same to Whitebeard.
War wasn't about Ace, or he would have been killed in prison. It was about Whitebeard, and it was about the principle.
If the war was just about the pride of the pirates, WB would follow BB to the ends of the world in order to kick his ass, your argument is half wrong.
-
Can someone please explain why people want named people to die?
-
If the war was just about the pride of the pirates, WB would follow BB to the ends of the world in order to kick his ass, your argument is half wrong.
Half of me wonders that Whitebeard would think Blackbeard would be at Maineford, so they could kill him.
-
If it was for the WB's flag pride, WB wouldnt tell Ace to let it go…and Teach's name wasnt said even once in the Marineford.
-
Which suprises me. The Whitebeard Pirates wouldn't know he's still at ID, and probably would think he'd be here.
-
If the war was just about the pride of the pirates, WB would follow BB to the ends of the world in order to kick his ass, your argument is half wrong.
Ace going after Blackbeard was ACE'S pride, WB didn't actually want him to go after him. Blackbeard was a family betrayal, and WB's #2 guy went out after him. One logia man to defeat one traitor who had purposely stayed anonymous and not shown his power, should have worked out. That was within the family, and family was taking care of it.
And then Blackbeard allied himself with the marines, and the marines flaunted having captured one of his sons. They could have just left him dead and claimed Blackbeard killed him, but no, they bragged, and printed in the newspapers "Hey, we're the marines and we caught this top guy. And we're SO confident and awesome, we're to going to execute him in a week. A 3:00 P.M sharp, not a moment sooner or later! We DARE you pirates to try and stop it!"
There's a difference between an in-family fight, and the school bully bragging that he beat up your kid and stole his lunch money, and that he's going to do it again next week. And then proceed to rape your daughters and steal your cow because he knows you won't do anything about it.
Can someone please explain why people want named people to die?
Its not an actual desire to see more death in the series. Its a desire to see Oda handling it properly, like he used to, prior to Skypeia.
Because it weakens the storytelling when Oda plays the death card so often and then backs out on it. It also weakens the threat of the villains and the accomplishments of the heroes if every last character can survive everything.
-
@Thousand:
Thought you meant named characters whose sole reason is to die not named fodders.
I see. My bad then.
Fair enough but bothering to develop characters whose sole purpose is to kill them off to make a war look good is a bit much…
Same as above I meant fodder which usually don't have a full fleshout out personality. I simply used the term character since even if they are underdeveloped fodder they still are characters in a fictional story.
But the Tsumegari Guards' deaths were as off-screen as those poor souls eliminated by the Pacifistas:/
Not really. It appears to have happened on screen. It simply wasn't caused by graphic violence.
I feel exactly the same way, my explanation was just about where it seems to be that Oda's heading. A lot of fodder should have died from all the pacifista/cannons/Akainu bombardments and fighting, but this will probably simply be ignored (like in the alabasta war) and any sort of named death, however desireable they might be to make this war look more real, will most likely not happen, because it would elicit "omg no, X died!" responses and that will only be reserved for WB, at best. Atleast that seems to be where Oda is going (again), if it were to be any other way, he would have already let a bunch of named people die..
I see. Well yeah, this is where Oda is heading and which is why I expressed my disappointment and brought an example of what I personally would find a better way of handling things.
-
I will tell how I see it.
BB did sth worse than the Marines, he killed one of WB's sons….but WB didnt retaliate because he knows that he wont acomplish anything with revenge and he cant bring Thatch back.
However, Ace could be still saved. He decided to risk his life and his crew lives for the sake of his nakama, just like Pirates do.
Saving Ace was the goal, of course another son's death would make WB cause a rampage and thats how the "angry King of the Sea" would be explained....it would be a chance to kick Teach's, Sengoku's and the marines' asses but the main goal was to save Ace ! If it was just about the pirates' pride, the pirates would stay in the Marineford in order to destroy it. All in all beating the enemies was just an extra for the WB pirates. -
Not really. It appears to have happened on screen. It simply wasn't caused by graphic violence.
I honestly see it as bad as this
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/562/04-05/
I mean they're being incinerated and everything:/
-
@Thousand:
I honestly see it as bad as this
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/562/04-05/
I mean they're being incinerated and everything:/
The thing is though these are attacks that in a prior arc didn't kill anybody. I know those Strawhats and the other rookies are not fodder so of course they'll not die from those lasers. But the thing is that thanks to that these attacks already have lost much of their steam at least as long as being a killing move is concerned. If it would have been shown at some point that these moves can kill a generic fodder character I'd have a different view on things. But looking at Oda's current track of handling things I just can't feel like "damn, they are being killed". I see your point but I just can't feel it anymore with the current state of things.
-
The thing is though these are attacks that in a prior arc didn't kill anybody. I know those Strawhats and the other rookies are not fodder so of course they'll not die from those lasers. But the thing is that thanks to that these attacks already have lost much of their steam at least as long as being a killing move is concerned. If it would have been shown at some point that these moves can kill a generic fodder character I'd have a different view on things. But looking at Oda's current track of handling things I just can't feel like "damn, they are being killed". I see your point but I just can't feel it anymore with the current state of things.
Only because guys like Luffy and Urouge were lucky that it passed through them before "exploding". But when it detonates like that around you, you're dead I assume:/
-
I see a few theories postulated here that I cannot agree with:
"The war wasn't about killing Ace, but about Whitebeard". We have seen plenty behind the scenes and if this were true, then Sengoku would have said "Now we can draw out WB and deal with him once and for all" but instead he said "we'll execute Ace, even if we risk going to war with WB himself!"
Now as to why they didn't just execute Ace in prison, if it was about him anyway. The WG/marines are the public authority of the OP world, they don't do shady stuff like that, just like they publicly executed Roger, they wanted to execute his son Ace in a public event. Being underhanded about it would just make them look weak and scared to the outside world, that is also why they cut the live feed when they wanted to speed up his execution. This makes perfect sense for the reigning authority.
Now ofcourse, this blew up in their face, but in theory they should have had enough military force and a solid enough plan to take on WB when he showed up.
-
So wintergt how are you going to justify that the marines have numerous notorious prisoners on level 5/6 who die rotting in their cells? Wouldn't that make the marines look weak since they don't execute them publicly?
-
@Thousand:
Only because guys like Luffy and Urouge were lucky that it passed through them before "exploding". But when it detonates like that around you, you're dead I assume:/
Explosions are something I can take even less serious in One Piece. I'm mainly argumenting on the base that I don't get the "shit's somebody got killed" feeling of these kind of situations which is totally subjective argument from my side. So we have to agree to disagree here.
-
the only reason ace going to be executed was because the order for his execution was signed before he was born
-
whitebeard is such a punk, its great to see him get bitch slapped.
-
Explosions are something I can take even less serious in One Piece. I'm mainly argumenting on the base that I don't get the "shit's somebody got killed" feeling of these kind of situations which is totally subjective argument from my side. So we have to agree to disagree here.
Indeed. Explosions are very finicky in One Piece. Mr 5 seemed scary but was very underwhelming. Luffy gets hit with a cannon and it's "whatever". Crocus took a bazooka to the face if I remember right. Pell's explosion is still one of those mentioned things in the story on these forums. Then, everyone in Marineford was convinced that blowing up the scaffold was enough to kill Ace if he didn't have his fruit powers.
-
So wintergt how are you going to justify that the marines have numerous notorious prisoners on level 5/6 who die rotting in their cells? Wouldn't that make the marines look weak since they don't execute them publicly?
Keeping criminals locked up doesn't make them look weak. Now I cannot speak for the marine's executing policies because we don't know what they are, they mostly just seem to execute pirates to make an example out of them, like Roger, and now his son. There might be more executions that we just don't know about because they aren't relevant for the story. They'll only look weak if they handle this in an underhanded manner because they are afraid of the repercussions, as they have to project an image to the world that they are superior and not afraid of the pirates/revolutionairies.
-
Meh, I don't see explosions any different than being penetrated through the body.
Luffy, Robin, Whitebeard, Hawkins, and many others have been stabbed right through their torso, and retained no fatal injuries.Marco doesn't count.
-
Any predictions for next chapter?
-
Like many said Wb flashback possibly
-
There is one exception.. if it's a logia then lethal attacks are allowed because they don't die anyway. Kizaru actually got blown into pieces by Scratchman Apoo (while much more powerfull explosions do nothing/not much vs weaker people), and Crocodile had his head cut off.
-
A WB flashback would be good.
-
Meh, I don't see explosions any different than being penetrated through the body.
Luffy, Robin, Whitebeard, Hawkins, and many others have been stabbed right through their torso, and retained no fatal injuries.Marco doesn't count.
I suppose it's because we generally get the idea that those things are pretty damaging (Whitebeard is trying to be the exception to that). On the other hand, explosions have seemed to be pretty much ineffective on Luffy on several occassions. Be it Mr 5 on Little Garden, Wapol on Drum Island, or whatever. Being stabbed through the torso has always seemed to be fairly effective.
I don't want to harp on "fatal injuries", but rather simple effectiveness of the damage, instead.
-
I still remember that pirate slave at Shaboddy, the one whose security collar exploded and then was shooted in the head. It was a bit WTF to hear that he was still alive after all that.
And how about that bird guy at Alabasta (Bere, was it?) That was a stupid way to ruin a good dramatic death.
-
I still remember that pirate slave at Shaboddy, the one whose security collar exploded and then was shooted in the head. It was a bit WTF to hear that he was still alive after all that.
And how about that bird guy at Alabasta (Bere, was it?) That was a stupid way to ruin a good dramatic death.
His name as Pell, and I know what you mean. I hope Oda proves he can kill at least 1 person and I hope Whitebeard is that person(even though I lobe WB).
-
I suppose it's because we generally get the idea that those things are pretty damaging (Whitebeard is trying to be the exception to that). On the other hand, explosions have seemed to be pretty much ineffective on Luffy on several occassions. Be it Mr 5 on Little Garden, Wapol on Drum Island, or whatever. Being stabbed through the torso has always seemed to be fairly effective.
being stabbed by croc wasn
t rly that painful for luffy besides losing some water, while he was at his "water-luffy"-form.. don
t see any scars cause of this..and besides being beaten for the first part of their fight and that what i mentioned it was just…useless! -
One panel.
Marine.
Looking down.
In the foreground, a lifeless hand amongst rubble.
Aforemenioned Marine = facepalming with visible tears from under hand.
Oda = win.
Can he do this one simple task?
-
The oh s***! I got a leak in my stomach! was one of the most hilarious scene in One Piece history.
-
One panel.
Marine.
Looking down.
In the foreground, a lifeless hand amongst rubble.
Aforemenioned Marine = facepalming with visible tears from under hand.
Oda = win.
Can he do this one simple task?
Or Oda can just put line in the news paper or in a box. That the deaths on both sides were great,after the war is done.So we would know people die and that would be end of that .
Not like i really care about what happen to fodder anyways.
-
One panel.
Marine.
Looking down.
In the foreground, a lifeless hand amongst rubble.
Aforemenioned Marine = facepalming with visible tears from under hand.
Oda = win.
Can he do this one simple task?
LOL. The more and more you read other good manga that doesn't have the hang up of not being consistent with killing or outright no longer being able to convey life and death situations it looks more and more like a weakness for Oda but he dug this hole himself.
Hopefully the turning point is coming where Oda reaches that elvel or shows he's just as good at it.
-
I thought there was already a graphic death in the war.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/565/04-05/
I mean he could still be alive, but those bottom panels seem pretty brutal. -
@Don:
being stabbed by croc wasn
t rly that painful for luffy besides losing some water, while he was at his "water-luffy"-form.. don
t see any scars cause of this..and besides being beaten for the first part of their fight and that what i mentioned it was just…useless!http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/200/17/
That was a hilarious scene, but I don't know that he was "stabbed" to cause it. Also, scarring is totally irrelevant.
I'm not even trying to complain here. It's just that after reading 572 chapters of One Piece, I've been conditioned to not be as concerned about explosions as I am about other attacks. Poison, on the other hand, has gone the opposite direction and worries the hell out of me now when a character encounters it. On a scale of all the different types of damage we've seen, explosions rank at the bottom, that's all. Something has to, so it's not a big deal. Stabbing and slicing would probably rank somewhere in the middle to me.
One panel.
Marine.
Looking down.
In the foreground, a lifeless hand amongst rubble.
Aforemenioned Marine = facepalming with visible tears from under hand.
Oda = win.
Can he do this one simple task?
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/556/08/ may be the closest that we get. I'd like to see your scenario, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
-
Rubber doesn't leave scars, though his regular body didn't even heal his eye scratchy! (Lol, normally rubber wouldn't grow back together at all)
Btw, did Oda ever mention Luffy's organs to be rubber too?
The only explosions which people should be and are afraid of in One Piece are those from Kizaru himself and sometimes even those from the Pacifista. (Though i can't remember anyone ever getting hit by those… that's when you know they are lethal :))
-
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/200/17/
That was a hilarious scene, but I don't know that he was "stabbed" to cause it. Also, scarring is totally irrelevant.
I'm not even trying to complain here. It's just that after reading 572 chapters of One Piece, I've been conditioned to not be as concerned about explosions as I am about other attacks. Poison, on the other hand, has gone the opposite direction and worries the hell out of me now when a character encounters it. On a scale of all the different types of damage we've seen, explosions rank at the bottom, that's all. Something has to, so it's not a big deal. Stabbing and slicing would probably rank somewhere in the middle to me.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/178/19/
would called that "stabbed".and yeah, i agree with you that explosions are just for the eye good but on a damage scale…well near to zero
-
Btw, did Oda ever mention Luffy's organs to be rubber too?
Didn't Lucchi say that Luffy could only use Gear 2 because his blood vessels and his heart were made of rubber, too? Because of that he does not die using Gear 2.
-
Didn't Lucchi say that Luffy could only use Gear 2 because his blood vessels and his heart were made of rubber, too? Because of that he does not die using Gear 2.
yup, thats right..
luffy`s hole budy is made out of rubber and the technique gear2 is just working cause his organs could handle that much pressure cause of their rubber-abilitys. -
i don't understand why everyone want to have him show death for the sake of just showing it. We know that people die in the world but we don't need to see it if it doesn't progress the story any. WB's death will progress the story because it will have a massive effect on the world because he is a major player in the world.
-
@Don:
being stabbed by croc wasn`t rly that painful for luffy
@Don:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/178/19/
would called that "stabbed".Wait, THAT is the stab you were referring to? That looks painful as hell, to me.
-
I mean he could still be alive, but those bottom panels seem pretty brutal.
???
He fell into the water from ice that was melting.
Oda killing WB means I get to keep reading.
But if there is no mention that anyone else perished on either side or if it is avoided all-together, the series will have finally lost something that it once had.
Still a great series, but Oda's personal ideals will have crushed any chance of suspense in the story from here on out.
^Controversial statement from Greg. Get over it.