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Thread: Japanese language

  1. #61

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by oceanizer View Post
    One thing I'm still confused about - へ and に
    gakkou ni ikimasu
    gakkou e ikimasu

    For majority of Japanese, I believe, it's not so differentiated. Or at least I still get confused about it. I think it's supposedly ... before ni, it's verb or action. Before e, it's location name.
    ie. Toshokan e benkyo ni ikimasu.
    Hm, the way my teacher explained it is that に denotes shorter travel distance and へ denotes a further distance...like going across the street versus going to another city...except it's kind of relative to an individual's point of view. But maybe that's an oversimplified explanation and there's more to it than that.

    Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible. - Frank Zappa

  2. #62

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Heh, I guess each have their own explanation... I heard the earlier explanation from one of the students at college who was learning Japanese for 2~3 years, I think.

    Further googling showed that some say "ni" emphasize the location, whreas "e" emphasize the direction. ... DD:

  3. #63

    Default Re: Japanese language

    "Ni" is used to describe a potential destination of an action, while "de" is the place where you are doing the action.

    "Uuchi de benkyoshimasu." vs. "Uuchi ni ikimasu."

    If memory serves, anyway.


    EDIT: Wait, you said "e"? Don't know if that's any different from "de". We haven't really discussed "e" as a particle yet. The only time Gohn has seen it is phrases like "Hikari E", i.e. "Into the Light", which seems to have similar applications to "de".

    Or maybe we're just calling it "de" and it's actually the exact same thing. Our damn textbook is from the 70's.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Japanese language

    "de" isn't confusing for me, at least.

    ni/e: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/particles2.html#part4

    Don't know if it's right or not though.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Oh, okay. It's much different.

    But yeah, after readin' the article, you were correct earlier. "Ni" emphasizes location [already knew that one], and "e" emphasizes direction.

    Guess you would use "e" when you directly want to emphasize whether you're moving away or towards an already understood location.

  6. #66
    madara is badass Luffy D. Ace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japanese language

    Luckily, I found a place to teach Japanese around here.
    I`m a lazy 16 years old guy, do you think I`m ready or should I wait for some years ?

    Boring holiday started today, most find something to do -___-;

  7. #67

    Default Re: Japanese language

    do you think your not going to be lazy in a few years? I wouldn't want to waste my money period to take a class i'm too lazy to work at.

  8. #68
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japanese language

    Further googling showed that some say "ni" emphasize the location, whreas "e" emphasize the direction.
    This is what I've always heard.

    It's like the difference between 'going to' and 'heading to'.

    The distance thing is a bit sketchy. I can say 'Tokyo e iku' but also say 'New York ni iku'. Massive difference in distance there ^_~

    How would you like to learn some ass-kicking kanji that can stump Japanese friends? Purely for fun.


    むじな Mujina- Badger

    樹懶 なまけもの Namakemono- Sloth

    髑髏 ドクロ Dokuro- Skull

    強ち あながち Anagachi- Not necessarily

    翳す かざす Kazasu- To raise over one's head

    聖林 ハリウッド Hariuddo- Hollywood

    Gotta get going! School in 30 min!!!!!

    Last edited by Greg; June 11th, 2007 at 03:50 PM.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Do japanese ever use simplified chinese characters as kanji, or just traditional?
    Bounce

  10. #70

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by Luffy D. Ace View Post
    Luckily, I found a place to teach Japanese around here.
    I`m a lazy 16 years old guy, do you think I`m ready or should I wait for some years ?

    Boring holiday started today, most find something to do -___-;
    S'always best to start as early as possible. The plasticity in your brain begins to degrade around the mid-20's, for an average person. It's still very possible to learn things after that, including language, but it becomes more difficult.

    The older you get, the more your brain isolates the languages you learn and is forced to translate them from one to the other, as opposed to simply having a perfect meld of all your language, each with its own dialect and other aspects.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by megakazul View Post
    Do japanese ever use simplified chinese characters as kanji, or just traditional?
    Japanese and Chinese both used to use unsimplified characters; however, in the middle of the 20th Century, both countries embarked on separate paths of simplification. Thus, while Simplified Chinese characters might be recognizable to the Japanese-literate who are well-read, Japanese actually has its own sets of simplifications (called Shinjitai, or "new character forms"), which sometimes line up with Chinese, but are often very different.

    A full list of kanji that are simplified in Japanese (along with their simplified forms) can be found here, though keep in mind that you may still encounter the traditional forms in proper names (such as people, Buddhist temples, and restaurants), and for effect. Also, keep in mind that the Japanese simplification process also involved eliminating many kanji from daily use, and only the 1,945 remaining on the Jōyō Kanji List were given simplified forms. Thus, while 賣, 讀, 續 are simplified to 売, 読, and 続, respectively, 黷, which is not part of the Jōyō Kanji, has no official simplified form, despite fitting the same pattern as the others.
    Co-Translator, Podcast Regular, and Man-in-Japan at Kanzenshuu, your authoritative Dragon Ball online resource

  12. #72

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Also, on a different note, I was reading through the thread and noticed the discussion about は, が, and を several pages back, particularly regarding the difference between the first two. However, all three are interrelated so it helps to cover all three at once.

    The difference between these three is that は (wa) is a topic marker, which can (in conjunction with other particles, where appropriate), mark any part of speech where that item is the topic of the sentence. Thus, it covers both subjects and objects in the grammatical sense. In this capacity, it also marks the topic as something which neither excludes other possibilities (where ga, o, or another more specific particle would be used), nor exists in addition to another topic (where one would use mo as a way of linking them up). Hopefully that should become a little clearer below...

    が (ga) marks the grammatical subject of an action or statement, usually such that the subject also becomes emphasized. To illustrate, consider this exchange:

    A: Karen-san wa keeki o tabeta ka?
    B: Iya, Jimu-san ga keeki o tabeta.

    A wants to know if Karen had any cake, but B states in no uncertain terms that Jim was the one who ate it (and implying that Karen, who may or may not be speaker B, did not).

    On the other hand, if B replies:

    B: Karen-san wa tabeta kedo...

    B indicates that Karen (who in this case is definitely not speaker A or B) did have cake (thus keeping her as the topic), but that the action is not necessarily exclusive to Karen. Most likely, someone else also had cake (or perhaps someone else who is about to be named was not able to have any because Karen was a pig and ate the whole thing).

    Similarly, を (o) marks the grammatical object of an action only. Thus, here:

    A: Keeki wa tabeta?
    B: Iya, Aisukuriimu wo tabeta.

    A wants to know if B had any cake (with cake being the topic), but B replies that he had the ice cream, not the cake (the o both marks the ice cream as the object and sets it in exclusion to the cake). However, if B answers:

    B: Keeki wa tabeta kedo...

    B is saying that he did have cake, but he probably had other things as well (or at least wanted to have other things, but wasn't able to). In the world of grammatical imagination, B could also conceivably reply:

    B: Iya, keeki ga tabeta.

    However, this would imply that the cake has somehow come to life and is devouring the other foodstuffs / party guests, so you're relatively unlikely to encounter this scenario.

    So, uh... I hope that wasn't too confusing. I know it's a lot of ground to cover, but these are three of the most important particles you need to know when it comes to deciphering a sentence (especially when things get really nonreferential and abstract). So... good luck? ^^;
    Co-Translator, Podcast Regular, and Man-in-Japan at Kanzenshuu, your authoritative Dragon Ball online resource

  13. #73

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by SaiyaJedi View Post
    Japanese and Chinese both used to use unsimplified characters; however, in the middle of the 20th Century, both countries embarked on separate paths of simplification. Thus, while Simplified Chinese characters might be recognizable to the Japanese-literate who are well-read, Japanese actually has its own sets of simplifications (called Shinjitai, or "new character forms"), which sometimes line up with Chinese, but are often very different.
    Ah, that would explain why I couldn't look up certain words in the chinese dictionary, as they were probably part of the Shinjitai. I grew up using traditional hanzi, so I was kind of shocked when I learned that China mostly used simplified. When I started learning japanese, I saw that the kanji for Gaku and Kuni were the same as the simplified chinese versions, so I cried (and gave up for awhile).

    After comparing the shinjitai to simplified hanzi, I feel like I'd adapt to shinjitai more. Unlike simp. hanzi, the shinjitai (in most cases?) leaves the radical portion of the character intact, instead of transforming the whole word. Thus, looking up a word via radical would still be feasible. (How does the average japanese person look up kanji anyway?)

    Thank you for the lists, I'm sure they'll be helpful to me sometime next semester, when I take japanese again.
    Bounce

  14. #74

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Kanji is fucking hell. Evil in its purest form.

  15. #75
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japanese language

    I'm personally a kanji freak.

    I think like many challenges, the more you know, the easier it is. When you see basically all the possible radicals (of which there really aren't all that many of) it merely becomes a matter of putting everything in the right place.

    Then as you study more vocab (and assuming you keep up with it) this reinforces the visual recognition of the kanji making it even easier to remember.

    Flashcards, flashcards, flashcards.

    Since last Thursday I've learned 400 additional kanji. Meaning not only can I read/recognize them, but also write them at will. Again, flashcards are your friend.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Japanese language

    man, greg, that is amaizing to me. 400 in a week. wow

  17. #77

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Since last Thursday I've learned 400 additional kanji. Meaning not only can I read/recognize them, but also write them at will. Again, flashcards are your friend.
    Are you sure you don't mean 40 kanji? I just have trouble imagining that you could cram over 1/5 the number of kanji in the Joyo list into your head in that short a timeframe.

    And if you really meant that, I clearly need to take your brain and assimilate its abilities, because I would kill to learn kanji that fast, and that well.
    Co-Translator, Podcast Regular, and Man-in-Japan at Kanzenshuu, your authoritative Dragon Ball online resource

  18. #78

    Default Re: Japanese language

    400 Kanji is about four of this school's textbooks crammed together, in terms of the Kanji vocabulary.

  19. #79
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by SaiyaJedi View Post
    Are you sure you don't mean 40 kanji? I just have trouble imagining that you could cram over 1/5 the number of kanji in the Joyo list into your head in that short a timeframe.

    And if you really meant that, I clearly need to take your brain and assimilate its abilities, because I would kill to learn kanji that fast, and that well.

    Yeah. 510 at the moment. I'm working at a rate of 40-50 a day. Again, many of these are kanji I can read, but can't write from memory so it's actually EASIER since its simply giving a visual to something I can recognize. I'm sure the pace will slow when I enter General Use. I'm going through Kenneth Henshall's guide. His triggers are nice and explanations helpful but they're lost on anyone when you need to know THAT many. It is, however, an excellent guide organized VERY well and intuitively. His translations require a dictionary on hand for better/deeper meanings but that's expected with one to two words definitions.

    Here's my study sheet from tonight. I have a book with all the evil and/or new kanji I'm liable to forget and write them down as I learn them, then write all of them each night. Here's the troublemakers from 1-510.

    Spoiler:




    Also, here's a nice site for self-testing on how many kanji you can read. If you answer honestly I've found the results to be surprisingly accurate as from a purely reading standpoint I'm right about a 6th Grade level and it placed me right there at 1,000-1,100. Give it a shot!

    http://www.mlcjapanese.co.jp/LevelCheck/Kanji/01.htm
    Last edited by Greg; June 16th, 2007 at 08:12 AM.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Japanese language

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Again, many of these are kanji I can read, but can't write from memory so it's actually EASIER since its simply giving a visual to something I can recognize.
    Ah, I see what you're getting at. I could actually read a lot of the ones you had on that sheet, but writing them reliably is another matter entirely.

    At any rate, I'm hopeful that my learning / retention rate will improve once I'm back in Japan and immersed fully in the language. It's harder at college when the only place you're really surrounded by it is in class...

    EDIT: Took the self-test, and it told me I knew about 1200-1300 characters. Too bad I can't write about half of them... damn katsujibanare
    Last edited by SaiyaJedi; June 16th, 2007 at 11:48 AM.
    Co-Translator, Podcast Regular, and Man-in-Japan at Kanzenshuu, your authoritative Dragon Ball online resource

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