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Thread: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

  1. #41

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    Eh. While I get why people may feel that way, I think they're glossing over what were intended to be conveyed as serious blunders and personal failings on Oden's part, though these certainly weren't overtly focused upon or spelled out by Oda: biggest errors being his chronic failures to reach out for help, attempting to shoulder the burden by his lonesome; and falling prey to the same mistake that Vivi made in thinking their respective challenges could be settled without bloodshed...sacrifice.
    The problem is that none of that gets framed as failings. Shinobu singlehandedly convinces the whole population they were wrong and that Oden was doing what he had to do and is actually the biggest hero ever.

    Literally no one in the story dislikes Oden except Orochi.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    Eh. While I get why people may feel that way, I think they're glossing over what were intended to be conveyed as serious blunders and personal failings on Oden's part, though these certainly weren't overtly focused upon or spelled out by Oda: biggest errors being his chronic failures to reach out for help, attempting to shoulder the burden by his lonesome; and falling prey to the same mistake that Vivi made in thinking their respective challenges could be settled without bloodshed...sacrifice.
    Strongly agree with this. And also, to my mind, the enormous failure of him returning to Wano during his voyage with Roger and choosing not to see what was happening there at the time, selfishly leaving it for later so he could chase Roger's dream. One Piece isn't the kind of series to strongly denigrate a character for putting dreams ahead of everything else, but Oden set his course and the course of his country's next two decades in that moment, and it was a choice totally in line with how he'd been written up to that point.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    There are certainly in universe explanations on why the citizens and people closer to Oden would hold him in a certain regard. All that said, for me personally it's a disconnect of how people in the story view him and how I as a reader got to see him. Outside of him being quite strong, at least for a Samurai of Wano, there's was nothing that left an impression on me. Had this been early in the series him surviving the boiling would have stood out, but with everything we've seen up to this point it was just par for the course. So when in this chapter you have the samurai and Yamato holding him in such high regard, it goes against my view of Oden and it takes me out of the moment.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Largely true...with one possible, intriguing exception; the display of Toki's seeming anguish and frustration upon reading his farewell latter. Obviously, there's room for interpretation, but I've a feeling Oden's leadership qualities and judgement is a topic Oda will return to as the parallels...and key differences...between the Strawhats, Scabbards, and their respective leaders are further explored. It may just take a while before the plot moves things in a direction where it'll be become a forthright topic of discussion amongst the characters.

    But that's veering into speculative territory, I admit. In any case, the signs are there, I feel; Oden was no Gary Stu, but same as Vivi, Luffy, or anyone else, nobody's perfect...and in many cases, those that love them will ultimately overlook these flaws in the long run. But even still, there'll be those that put their flaws and decisions on blast, and give readers pause to reconsider how we perceive these characters; even darlings such as Whitebeard and Roger himself weren't placed beyond criticism.

    Oden's time will come, I think, and soon.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Strongly agree with this. And also, to my mind, the enormous failure of him returning to Wano during his voyage with Roger and choosing not to see what was happening there at the time, selfishly leaving it for later so he could chase Roger's dream. One Piece isn't the kind of series to strongly denigrate a character for putting dreams ahead of everything else, but Oden set his course and the course of his country's next two decades in that moment, and it was a choice totally in line with how he'd been written up to that point.
    That's a good point I neglected to mention. While the One Piece philosophy with regards to the selfish nature of dreams is rather nuanced, I think it can be argued that Oden committed another serious mistake that ties back to another of the flaws I mentioned, as well as one of the overriding themes of the Whole Cake Island arc: chasing dreams entails risk, and requires sacrifice; having already "sacrificed" Wano's well being by abandoning his responsibilities and setting out to sea, Oden had long foregone any option, any right of hoping to reclaim Wano without further sacrifice. That's just full on naivete.

    Again, perhaps not something Oda saw fit to spell out in full outright detail, but I feel the subtext is there, and is probably due for further inspection under the spotlight in the coming future, one way or the other.

    For example, I don't think it's coincidental that Oda's been repeatedly posing certain "what if" scenarios, or giving readers reason to do so, that boil down to one simply question: what would've had Oden reached out to and teamed up with:

    - Whitebeard
    - Hyogoro
    - The other daimyo

    Food for thought.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    I think every single mistake made by Oden was very intentionally portrayed by Oda -- thus not hidden or glossed over. Instead of the perfect man Oden is supposed to be due to how much he is beloved and admired, Oda chose to write him a flawed character who embarassed himself a few times. In particular, the page where Oden comes to Wano with Roger and decides to leave without looking at Wano's problems is very emblematic of Oda being minutely deliberate to depict Oden's mistakes since Oda could have easily avoided that situation to spare Oden of such criticism. Roger even called Oden "scoundrel" -- or "scum" in the unofficial translation.

    It's interesting to wonder why is that... since, at the same time, it's undeniable that Oda wants us to like Oden despite all mistakes...

  6. #46

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    I think every single mistake made by Oden was very intentionally portrayed by Oda -- thus not hidden or glossed over.
    No doubt. I meant "glossed over" in terms of readers nauseated by all the Oden love, as well as the narrative having yet to really expound on it too much. It's there in plain view, but at the same time it hasn't been explicitly discussed in-story to a significant degree. I imagine the topic will crop up eventually, when events bring all these themes to the fore and inevitably prompts outright discussion and reflection amongst the cast concerning Oden's actions...or at least deliberately explore how Luffy's own decisions both mirrors and differ from Oden. This too is something we've already seen set into motion.

    Just remains to be see how far Oda is willing to go. I personally think he's going to take it hella far.

    We'll probably see Toki getting similar treatment, I feel, albeit with some key differences. Said it before, we got a chapter title "Everybody love Oden." I fully expect we'll be getting one called "Everybody hates Toki."

    Public perception can flip flop at any given moment.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    No doubt. I meant "glossed over" in terms of readers nauseated by all the Oden love, as well as the narrative having yet to really expound on it too much. It's there in plain view, but at the same time it hasn't been explicitly discussed in-story to a significant degree. I imagine the topic will crop up eventually, when events bring all these themes to the fore and inevitably prompts outright discussion and reflection amongst the cast concerning Oden's actions...or at least deliberately explore how Luffy's own decisions both mirrors and differ from Oden. This too is something we've already seen set into motion.
    I'm not so sure Oda wants to do that, and neither is needed for him to do so. Personally, I don't think an author needs to be didatic about stuff and spell out moral commands and verdicts in order to make his ethics clear -- the readers can think for themselves after the whole picture is given to them, and reach their own personal conclusion. As you said, Oden's mistakes are in plain view, so much so that we often see readers remembering them (and even the characters criticized Oden at the time despite how much they love him now), so the story is already complete. No more discussion is needed.

    What's better is what you suggest after: to have the actions of other characters (in particular, Luffy) show the alternative to Oden's failings, and that doesn't need to be done explicitly.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    The problem is that we have yet to see any Wano character demonstrate criticism for Oden's actions that weren't eventually overturned. Because anyone who hears about his stories just seems to love the guy.

    And it's very unlikely that there will be reflection about it since Oda is not really that kind of writer. The authority figures that are meant to be heroic tend to be portrayed with little negativity in his stories. Like, both Cobra and King Riku were introduced as those fallible king figures, but were eventually revealed to be victims of the real schemer all along, and by the end of their arcs, they are considered paragons of virtue and wisdom. Same for people like Ganfall and Neptune.

    Meanwhile, the evil kings like Orochi, Doflamingo and Wapol are all cartoonishly evil.
    Last edited by King Cannon; September 6th, 2021 at 10:47 AM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Well, I live in a country where a former president caught in a massive corruption scandal is praised for criticizing the current terrible president.

    People often ignore how bad a savior figure was just because of how dire the situation got.
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    Well, I live in a country where a former president caught in a massive corruption scandal is praised for criticizing the current terrible president.

    People often ignore how bad a savior figure was just because of how dire the situation got.
    Look, a brazilian!

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    The problem is that we have yet to see any Wano character demonstrate criticism for Oden's actions that weren't eventually overturned. Because anyone who hears about his stories just seems to love the guy.
    That's precisely what I call didacticism -- the author can't write his characters loving Oden without them writing a thousand words essay on Oden's mistakes onscreen for the readers (besides the criticism they already made in the flashback), just to make morals and priorities clear and unambiguous all the time. Or perhaps characters shouldn't love Oden at all? Maybe that's the point -- Oden is unlovable because of his flaws!

    And it's very unlikely that there will be reflection about it since Oda is not really that kind of writer. The authority figures that are meant to be heroic tend to be portrayed with little negativity in his stories. Like, both Cobra and King Riku were introduced as those fallible king figures, but were eventually revealed to be victims of the real schemer all along, and by the end of their arcs, they are considered paragons of virtue and wisdom. Same for people like Ganfall and Neptune.
    As you said, when Oda wants to, he writes his characters as perfect people with virtually no flaws whatsoever -- the perfect king, the perfect princess, the perfect citzen, the perfect civilian, etc. He did it a lot in pre-timeskip especially. So it's not like Oda is unaware of what's virtuous and what's not.

    The fact that Oda wrote Oden as a flawed individual speaks for itself, and he was very explicit on that. Any reader can pick up on this fact without the other characters screaming at us "hey, I love Oden!!!! but I must add that he is flawed, just so we're clear!".

  11. #51

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Some times it feels like all of ya'll are Brazilian

  12. #52

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Very cool chapter! I like the flashback with little cute Yamato, it's a very interesting story with lots of hints and lots of things that still needs to be adressed... I'm thirsty for more

  13. #53

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    The problem is that we have yet to see any Wano character demonstrate criticism for Oden's actions that weren't eventually overturned. Because anyone who hears about his stories just seems to love the guy.
    Who's better than Momo or Hiyori to do it... especially Momo as a proof that not only his body grew bigger, but that he also matured and isn't just an 8-year-old in 28-year-old body.

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

  14. #54

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Look, a brazilian!
    16 characters of
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  15. #55

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by The Franky Tank View Post
    That was a nice little chapter, and little Yamato is so adorable.

    This chapter really solidified how disappointing the Oden flashback was for me. It's neat that Yamato had a huge fascination with Oden and he wants to be just like Oden. Along with the samurai and their undying loyalty to Oden it shows just how powerful of a presence he had with so many people. However, every time this happens I am reminded of that extremely long and dragged on flashback and what we saw of Oden just clashes so much with how the people in universe view him. I can get behind the scabbards to an extent since Oden personally took them in, but for everyone else outside of that, Oden was known to be a trouble maker and then he left the island for a long time until coming back, and then when everyone thought he was going to save Wano he had to embarrass himself throughout the entire country. Even with the explanation of why he danced around, the flashback never made Oden likable to me, let alone this figure that is revered by all the samurai.

    Still, with all that said I really enjoyed Yamato's flashback and his short interactions with the samurai. Them being sort of mentors, being kind to Yamato, and reading Oden's journal to him while a short part of the chapter was the highlight of the chapter to me.
    Very well put. I think it is first clear failure of Oda to make a character likeable to the readers when he fully intended to do so.
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  16. #56

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by auem View Post
    Very well put. I think it is first clear failure of Oda to make a character likeable to the readers when he fully intended to do so.
    Don't generalize your experience. Oden is the 24th most popular character in the series according to the last official worldwide OP popularity poll -- and his popularity shows in any internet forum not named Arlong Park.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Don't generalize your experience. Oden is the 24th most popular character in the series according to the last official worldwide OP popularity poll -- and his popularity shows in any internet forum not named Arlong Park.
    I would say he finished 24th because the poll happened during Wano arc. Historically running arc characters did better in popular poll. We will see how he is placed in next(and final) poll.He is not the character to have enduring effect.
    “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.”


  18. #58

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Don't generalize your experience. Oden is the 24th most popular character in the series according to the last official worldwide OP popularity poll -- and his popularity shows in any internet forum not named Arlong Park.
    Oden is kind of the Marineford war of characters.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Oden is kind of the Marineford war of characters.
    I love how this perfectly frames both Oden AND the Marineford arc at the same time.
    Curiosity has its own reason for existing

  20. #60

    Default Re: Chapter 1,024: So-and-So

    About Kaido's move Vajra Arrow (Kongou Kabura: 金剛鏑) in chapter 1024, "Kongou" is a Buddhist term meaning "the hardest metal" like a diamond. Interestingly, it was already used as the name of Crocodile's final attack in Alabasta: Desert Kongou Treasure Sword (砂漠の金剛宝刀).

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