View Poll Results: What Zoan is Yamato?

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  • Kirin

    43 46.24%
  • Byakko

    6 6.45%
  • Kasha/Bakeneko

    5 5.38%
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Thread: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

  1. #121
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    If you look at it in minutiae, you'll find inconsistencies because Oda is indeed mortal
    Since you're already here maybe you can shed some light on something I always wondered about:

    How many people actually look over Oda's work to spot those inconsistencies?

    For example, how is it possible that Orochi's Devil Fruit could be first released without a Swirlpattern? I can get behind Oda simply forgetting it due to stress and fatique, but was there really no one around to point out that something is off?
    I always assumed that's the editor's job, but I guess they're not really into the details and care more about the big picture (marketability, merchandise etc.)?

    Like, did you (especially you) ever wonder that if you were around to "proofread" the chapters, those obvious mistakes wouldn't happen?


  2. #122
    Discovered Stowaway Galleon Panthera's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Looking at the poll, Im surprised six votes went to Byakko, even though its very apparent its not a tiger-looking creature, due to the absence of tiger features like the nose, ears, and especially a tiger's tail.

  3. #123

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Yamato is clearly another type of fish.

    I expected to see Sogeking and Franky's centaur this arc. I think that could still happen.
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  4. #124

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    How many people actually look over Oda's work to spot those inconsistencies?

    For example, how is it possible that Orochi's Devil Fruit could be first released without a Swirlpattern?
    I can answer this one.

    It's called DEADLINES.

    It doesn't matter if you have 2 people or 100 proofing your work, or how passionate you are or how much you care, if there's no time to make fixes, there's no time to make fixes. The pages HAVE to go out when they go out. Oda most certainly works *past* the last minute much of the time, most comic creators do. Always trying to get in one last detail, one more thing to make it better.

    It's not that "they just don't care about the details", rather "they run out of time to care about the details".

    If they catch a mistake in the layout process they can fix it then. If they catch a mistake in the final art? Unless its a *major* mistake there's often probably just no time to deal with it and you have to let it go. Especially on a weekly schedule.

    Longer response with personal industry insights
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    I've been working in comics for 22 years and I usually work on two books a month, sometimes in editorial or small job capacity on as many as 10. I have worked on literally thousands of books, I can not possibly remember them all.

    Barring stuff that was already done before it was even advertised, and thus finished literally months in advance, in all that time, in all those projects, I can't think of even a single example where an issue that involved a team* was actually done ahead of the deadline with room the breathe and casually edit, stuff always comes in last minute and down to the wire. If a book is due on Friday, you can bet the art team will be cramming over the weekend to have it in first thing Monday morning. Not once in my entire time working has a book been actually finished on Wednesday to give editorial two days to look at it before going out on Friday as a polished product. Not once, not at any of the dozens of publishers or hundreds of artists I've worked with. (And I'm not counting cases where the deadline was pushed back because it had to be.)

    That isn't hyperbole or exaggerating for effect, literally with hundreds of books under my belt, and thousands I've had a hand in, I can't think of a single one with a team that was done ahead of time. Artists ALWAYS pace themselves to the final deadline and hold off all their super crunch energy until they have to, maximum effort is never put in at the start of a book. That's part human nature, and part experience knowing that if you have to cut corners at the end, then you have to, but may as well try to do good while you still have time. Miracles can be wrought at the end but its exhausting and burns you out, so you just don't put that super hard crunch at the start.

    Especially with books that need coloring. As long as the artist got the pages in technically on time, the editors don't care that the colorist has no time to do their job. I have many, many all nighters in my work history that were no fault of my personal pacing.

    I have some horror stories of coloring entire books in a single night, when usually you should have 2 or 3 weeks.

    But especially in Jump's case where the weekly mags are temporary and they can fix stuff for the trades, which are longterm, they know they can make fixes later so its not the end of the world if something is off in the weekly..


    But that's your answer. Deadlines ultimately don't care about quality or mistakes, it goes out when it has to go out, no matter what. This is why amines will have absolutely awful looking episodes sometimes, because they generally aren't done 8 months in advance.


    Books that only have one creator doing everything, writing, pencilling, inking, lettering, manage to hit schedule sometimes because one person can handle their pacing a lot more than four people can, and because the artist then isn't getting edit notes from the writer, and because folks down the line aren't waiting for the first guys. So there are exception I've *heard* of, Kochekame's author and Usagi Yojimbo come to mind as always being on time, but those are exceptions, not rules. Koche not missing a single issue in 40 years speaks to a very specific process... but the fact that those are series with standalone chapters rather than massive ongoing stories means they are most likely able to bank chapters for emergencies when they fall behind.

    Marvel and DC bank chapters too with fill-in teams all the time. Some publishers liek Archie tend to manage things by just having short stories in their books so no one is responsible for more than 12 pages a month in a given book, etc.

    Hunter x Hunter regularly had Togashi turning in literal scribbles. because the deadline was the deadline and the editor didn't care about excuses, SOMETHING had to go in even if it was drawn in five minutes.
    Last edited by Robby; July 20th, 2021 at 06:39 PM.
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  5. #125

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Kaido didnt want Yamato to eat that DF, but all of his most reliable subordinates already are DF users themselves

    This could be implying that Kaido probably wanted to learn the trick to have two df's at once

  6. #126
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Interesting stuff
    Curious. I guess I still have this warped impression due to that one editor who said that Oda went back to the drawing board because he thought Saubody wasn't exciting enough or something.
    I just wish I could witness the entire process myself. Like I imagine Oda sitting on his desk, with his assistants in spitting distance. But that's probably not how it works .


  7. #127

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I can answer this one.

    It's called DEADLINES.

    It doesn't matter if you have 2 people or 100 proofing your work, or how passionate you are or how much you care, if there's no time to make fixes, there's no time to make fixes. The pages HAVE to go out when they go out. Oda most certainly works *past* the last minute much of the time, most comic creators do. Always trying to get in one last detail, one more thing to make it better.

    It's not that "they just don't care about the details", rather "they run out of time to care about the details".

    If they catch a mistake in the layout process they can fix it then. If they catch a mistake in the final art? Unless its a *major* mistake there's often probably just no time to deal with it and you have to let it go. Especially on a weekly schedule.

    Longer response with personal industry insights
    Hidden:

    I've been working in comics for 22 years and I usually work on two books a month, sometimes in editorial or small job capacity on as many as 10. I have worked on literally thousands of books, I can not possibly remember them all.

    Barring stuff that was already done before it was even advertised, and thus finished literally months in advance, in all that time, in all those projects, I can't think of even a single example where an issue that involved a team* was actually done ahead of the deadline with room the breathe and casually edit, stuff always comes in last minute and down to the wire. If a book is due on Friday, you can bet the art team will be cramming over the weekend to have it in first thing Monday morning. Not once in my entire time working has a book been actually finished on Wednesday to give editorial two days to look at it before going out on Friday as a polished product. Not once, not at any of the dozens of publishers or hundreds of artists I've worked with. (And I'm not counting cases where the deadline was pushed back because it had to be.)

    Especially with books that need coloring. As long as the artist got the pages in technically on time, the editors don't care that the colorist has no time to do their job. I have many, many all nighters in my work history that were no fault of my personal pacing.

    I have some horror stories of coloring entire books in a single night, when usually you should have 2 or 3 weeks.

    But especially in Jump's case where the weekly mags are temporary and they can fix stuff for the trades, which are longterm, they know they can make fixes later so its not the end of the world if something is off in the weekly..


    But that's your answer. Deadlines ultimately don't care about quality or mistakes, it goes out when it has to go out, no matter what. This is why amines will have absolutely awful looking episodes sometimes, because they generally aren't done 8 months in advance.


    Books that only have one creator doing everything, writing, pencilling, inking, lettering, manage to hit schedule sometimes because one person can handle their pacing a lot more than four people can, and because the artist then isn't getting edit notes from the writer, and because folks down the line aren't waiting for the first guys. So there are exception I've *heard* of, Kochekame's author and Usagi Yojimbo come to mind as always being on time, but those are exceptions, not rules. Koche not missing a single issue in 40 years speaks to a very specific process... but the fact that those are series with standalone chapters rather than massive ongoing stories means they are most likely able to bank chapters for emergencies when they fall behind.

    Marvel and DC bank chapters too with fill-in teams all the time. Some publishers liek Archie tend to manage things by just having short stories in their books so no one is responsible for more than 12 pages a month in a given book, etc.

    Hunter x Hunter regularly had Togashi turning in literal scribbles. because the deadline was the deadline and the editor didn't care about excuses, SOMETHING had to go in even if it was drawn in five minutes.
    How about Rob Liefeld?
    I heard that he was a valued artist at Marvel and such, despite his art short-comings, because he always turned stuff on time, so he was reliable.

  8. #128

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Curious. I guess I still have this warped impression due to that one editor who said that Oda went back to the drawing board because he thought Saubody wasn't exciting enough or something.
    That would have been done at the start of the process when he was still doing the rough draft, not at the end when the art was all finished.

    I just wish I could witness the entire process myself. Like I imagine Oda sitting on his desk, with his assistants in spitting distance. But that's probably not how it works .
    I can't speak for Oda's specific setup, but every place I've worked at, and every group of artists I've ever hung out with, its generally each artist holed up in their own room or cubby with the door closed and headphones on so they can focus on work, then ocassionally every few hours they come out to stretch or get food and to see what everyone else is doing.

    Given the super connected nature of assistant work, assistants probably all share a general area usually so they can glance over, but would still have their own supplies and areas. And since Oda has to oversee things, he maybe checks more often than not but if he trusts his team then he wouldn't be looming over their shoulder or anything.

    It's talkative and friendly during break time. During work its usually all focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by FolhaS View Post
    How about Rob Liefeld?
    I heard that he was a valued artist at Marvel and such, despite his art short-comings, because he always turned stuff on time, so he was reliable.
    He's only a penciller so its not quite the same, but yes. A company will appreciate someone always hitting deadlines more than they will appreciate it being good.

    Stuff running late gets you charged more at the printer, it pisses of the distributor and stores, and immediately puts you behind on the next issue.

    If you're *already* a big name and your name alone moves copies there's a bit more leeway, but yes, publishers will prefer a mediocre artist that's always on time over a great artist that's always a week late.

    More insider stuff
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    Here's the trick. Once you know your craft well enough, you can cut corners in ways people don't notice with a wide variety of tricks. Stick to closeups so you're doing less clothes and hands, back of the head so you're not rendering a face, silhouettes, reuse backgrounds... and an artist that knows balance will use those tricks *throughout* an issue so the audience can't tell. If you do pages out of sequence, and so do like, pages, 1-4, 7, 8, 12, 17- 20 first, and do a good job on them, people are less likely to notice 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13-16 are sloppier because you spaced out the time focus. Wheras if you go straight in order, people are going to notice if the first 10 pages look great and the last 10 pages look bad.

    Or when you're doing color pages, if you start with a cream colored paper, that'll save you some time on rendering skintones and some level of shadows, and that time can add up. Whenever you see an author do a color spread on unusual background paper, it was almost certainly a choice for time rather than pure style. You can't do that every time or it becomes obvious, but one time in twenty and it just looks like a neat flourish.

    There's lots of tricks any seasoned comic artist picks up on eventually.

    Like, I have zero inside knowledge on this, but unless Oda *always* does his pages entirely in sequence, I guarantee you the opening title page for chapter 1015, the one with Senor Pink on the stork? That was one of the last things Oda did that week, or they were running behind when they started doing the final art stages and had to catch up and do a page fast. Very few characters, no background, not much to the composition, minimal filled in blacks, that's a page that was done in 20 minutes just to get it done.

    I have no idea if Oda usually does the title pages first or saves them for last, but there is no doubt in my mind that particular page was sacrificed so he could spend more time on something else that week. Like say, the page where Kaidou is looming over a defeated Kinemon. Or the page that it was declared "Luffy is going to win!" that had 10 panels on it, 25 characters, a fairly elaborate background, and some real thought in the composition of the top panel

    I'm literally trained to look for these things, my work means I'm always trying to find shortcuts myself, so I tend to notice this stuff instinctively, but to a casual reader its just... there, and you don't notice it at all. Like it was always super jarring to me when Hunter Hunter had an all-assistant page with nothing from Togashi on it, but most readers couldn't tell the difference so it was fine.
    Last edited by Robby; July 20th, 2021 at 03:56 PM.
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  9. #129
    Discovered Stowaway astagadragon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    Kaido didnt want Yamato to eat that DF, but all of his most reliable subordinates already are DF users themselves

    This could be implying that Kaido probably wanted to learn the trick to have two df's at once
    Orrr maybe Kaido want to commit suicide by eating another DF. But he realized its not a glorious death (its a stupid one), so he stored the fruit somewhere else.

    One day a starved Yams (Kaido did that, the bastard) found the fruit and thought "yay free food", then yoink!

    (Dont comment on this so seriously)
    "The rain has ceased, and we have been graced by another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." - Elidibus

  10. #130

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops


  11. #131

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    Kaido didnt want Yamato to eat that DF, but all of his most reliable subordinates already are DF users themselves

    This could be implying that Kaido probably wanted to learn the trick to have two df's at once
    I donít think itís a trick. In the movie TOTAL RECALL 1990 thereís a character who has a fetus like human inside him and it was alive. I think Blackbeard has something similar, Iím not sure if itís alive thou. And Iím gonna go further here, I think Blackbeard may have two fetuses like being inside him and he may eat another fruit, making it three. His skull flag gave me this idea.


    Update

    I read somewhere that Blackbeard has the strongest Logia and the Strongest Paramecia fruits and that he might eat a third one (the Strongest Zoan fruit). It would be very fitting for his character. But the strongest Zoan fruit, isnít that Kaido?. Kaido is known as the strongest Beast and Dragons are known as the king of all animals or beats. I would not be shocked if Blackbeard is aware of everything thatís happening in Wano and after Luffy beats Kaido, Blackbeard might show up to finishing him and take the Dragon fruit for himself.
    Last edited by tenchu; July 20th, 2021 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    I would personally love it if all the flying six and All Stars got defeated only to change to there awakened forms and the Straw Hats have some real one on ones that each lasted at least two chaptersÖÖ But I would say thatís a pipe dream at this point

  13. #133
    Discovered Stowaway DatYute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by tenchu View Post
    I don’t think it’s a trick. In the movie TOTAL RECALL 1990 there’s a character who has a fetus like human inside him and it was alive. I think Blackbeard has something similar, I’m not sure if it’s alive thou. And I’m gonna go further here, I think Blackbeard may have two fetuses like being inside him and he may eat another fruit, making it three. His skull flag gave me this idea.


    Update

    I read somewhere that Blackbeard has the strongest Logia and the Strongest Paramecia fruits and that he might eat a third one (the Strongest Zoan fruit). It would be very fitting for his character. But the strongest Zoan fruit, isn’t that Kaido?. Kaido is known as the strongest Beast and Dragons are known as the king of all animals or beats. I would not be shocked if Blackbeard is aware of everything that’s happening in Wano and after Luffy beats Kaido, Blackbeard might show up to finishing him and take the Dragon fruit for himself.
    Very nice theory that's been around for years. I used to be all for it, but honestly the thought of reusing the Koi fruit after Luffy defeats it isn't really all that interesting to me anymore. I'm kinda content with the darkness and quake fruit being what Luffy has to go up against but I'm still half clinging to that theory of him getting a zoan too.

  14. #134

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by DatYute View Post
    Very nice theory that's been around for years. I used to be all for it, but honestly the thought of reusing the Koi fruit after Luffy defeats it isn't really all that interesting to me anymore. I'm kinda content with the darkness and quake fruit being what Luffy has to go up against but I'm still half clinging to that theory of him getting a zoan too.
    Id rather BB get the Yamata no Orochi, seems more suitable for him. That's if he gets one
    Hereís how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what heís doing. Luffy replies ďThinkiní bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!Ē and then chucks it off the ship

  15. #135
    Discovered Stowaway DatYute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmamentHero View Post
    Id rather BB get the Yamata no Orochi, seems more suitable for him. That's if he gets one
    Yeah this would be really dope. We would get to see it in the hands of a real monster.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Not too much to say about this one but it's just a really needed chapter again, like a glug of water after being in the desert for a long time. Franky's last fight was in 2014 or 2015 so he really needed one where he goes all-out. I would've been freaking out if I saw a fight with a concept like this pre-timeskip (a giant robot vs a triceratops Zoan), so I'll apply that same standard here. And again, this shows that worrying excessively about Nami/Usopp's fight being the norm for all the rest was silly.

    Yamato's Zoan looks so unique and pretty, love it. If she is to join, well, there goes her "looking like Nami" whenever she's in that form.
    Croc or Enel would never.
    Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Okay, for all you people complaining Yamato doesn't look like a Zoan I came up with an alternative for you.

    Kaido is really into beasts for some reason so turns out he got it on with a mink so Yamato is half mink. Yamato doesn't normally look very minkish but considering it is a full moon, Yamato's blood can't resist, becomes a were-mink, and assumes a sulong type form. This potentially leaves the possibility of the devil fruit Kaido mentioned a mystery if the form is explained by some other means.

    What does Kaido want? A war to end all wars. He also has a fruit that he didn't want anyone to eat but Yamato ate it. Whereas Belo Betty has a devil fruit that increases people's fighting spirit and physical strength, Yamato has a fruit that calms people down and lets them solve conflict with words, not weapons.
    Avatar Artist: Aapo Niemi

  18. #138

    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    Kaido didnt want Yamato to eat that DF, but all of his most reliable subordinates already are DF users themselves

    This could be implying that Kaido probably wanted to learn the trick to have two df's at once
    Her DF provides some form of invincibility, ďReraiseĒ spell : jutsu

    Of Sorts.

    Enabled her to literally try to kill Kaido from a young age. Where are the crews thoughts on if she got this DF as a child or more recently, also might I add may it have some link to Tomatoís mother? That has to be addressed at some point and I smell some necessary flashbacks upon the horizonÖ donít forget crewÖ Everyone ( as far as huge threats) are still alive, and Wano has all itís best still to offer.

    Momo for JR. Nakama
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    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeorn View Post
    Okay, for all you people complaining Yamato doesn't look like a Zoan I came up with an alternative for you.

    Kaido is really into beasts for some reason so turns out he got it on with a mink so Yamato is half mink. Yamato doesn't normally look very minkish but considering it is a full moon, Yamato's blood can't resist, becomes a were-mink, and assumes a sulong type form. This potentially leaves the possibility of the devil fruit Kaido mentioned a mystery if the form is explained by some other means.

    What does Kaido want? A war to end all wars. He also has a fruit that he didn't want anyone to eat but Yamato ate it. Whereas Belo Betty has a devil fruit that increases people's fighting spirit and physical strength, Yamato has a fruit that calms people down and lets them solve conflict with words, not weapons.
    Talku Talku no mi : Naruto style DF W

  19. #139
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    I believe Oda doesn't care much about consistency anymore and I doubt he will even address anomalies unless he absolutely has to (see Kata's Paramecia).

    If anything is in the way of his creativity he will sacrifice whatever "norm" he established, and in Yam's case it's really obvious why he did it. He wanted / was pushed into creating a beautiful feminine creature, and the usual Zoan approach (Batman-look) was simply in the way of that.

    So Mink-style it is, and I have no doubt it will be a success for the target audience.

    The only thing I expect to be clarified in the SBS is how Yamato's furry-sideboob would look as a person.

    Surely he has to explain Black Maria though. Thats super creative/unusual and inconsistent.

    Unless she also ate a smile.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeorn View Post
    Okay, for all you people complaining Yamato doesn't look like a Zoan I came up with an alternative for you.

    Kaido is really into beasts for some reason so turns out he got it on with a mink so Yamato is half mink. Yamato doesn't normally look very minkish but considering it is a full moon, Yamato's blood can't resist, becomes a were-mink, and assumes a sulong type form. This potentially leaves the possibility of the devil fruit Kaido mentioned a mystery if the form is explained by some other means.

    What does Kaido want? A war to end all wars. He also has a fruit that he didn't want anyone to eat but Yamato ate it. Whereas Belo Betty has a devil fruit that increases people's fighting spirit and physical strength, Yamato has a fruit that calms people down and lets them solve conflict with words, not weapons.
    Kaido loves beasts so much he commits bestiality. LOL

    I love it.

    Of course its not as nasty if Kaido isn't fully human to begin with.

    Also Yamato being a were-mink/half mink and still hasnt revealed his zoan form would be really interesting.
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  20. #140
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,019: Heliceratops

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Since you're already here maybe you can shed some light on something I always wondered about:

    How many people actually look over Oda's work to spot those inconsistencies?

    For example, how is it possible that Orochi's Devil Fruit could be first released without a Swirlpattern? I can get behind Oda simply forgetting it due to stress and fatique, but was there really no one around to point out that something is off?
    I always assumed that's the editor's job, but I guess they're not really into the details and care more about the big picture (marketability, merchandise etc.)?

    Like, did you (especially you) ever wonder that if you were around to "proofread" the chapters, those obvious mistakes wouldn't happen?


    I know more about this than I should talk about while the series is running but I don't think it would be inappropriate to confirm what many assume, the creative team, as a whole, look at those things.

    The manga is a first pass but it's considered in minutiae before going to tank.

    However... while they might pick up stuff like Zoro's haramaki is missing in a tiny panel, everyone as a human has natural biases towards what they're looking at/for and things will easily slip through. I've seen how tank checks work and it's impressive.

    One Piece is as much a product of the creative team as it is Oda himself, though Oda guides each of those aspects himself with care.

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