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Thread: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

  1. #121
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    It doesn't go along with the "fightin' talk" like what Sanji said about calling a fishman "a lousy fish" either, because I don't think many people would agree he's the same as Who's-Who in that Sanji was intended to be portrayed as a casual racist, who's hatefully discriminatory, despite what Sanji said.


    https://i.ibb.co/3pV8NhX/Screen-Shot...6-20-00-PM.png
    I mean based on what we learn about fishman I would definitely say Zoro and Sanji were example of the prejudice that exist about fishmen. But I would expect them to be better now.



  2. #122

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    My interpretation is that Jinbe, back then, was still too overwhelmed by guilt to talk back. Like he felt he was in no position to argue against the stereotype, being one of the most violent Fishman himself up until recently.

    But he grew, learned to forgive himself (also thanks to Nami) and is now standing up to bullshit.
    Yeah, it's also fair for it just to be that. Strawhat crew character development is so subtle and long term you kinda don't notice it's happening until you look back over things from the past.

    One of my favourite examples is New World Luffy going from needing to protect everything no matter the cost at Fishman Island to maturely accepting and making the most of Pedro and Jinbe's sacrifices at Whole Cake Island. There was no aha moment when the switch was flipped toward there being acceptable losses in the face of some opponents, he just grew over time and started reacting differently. Thinking on it now, there's good odds Jinbe's attitude has slowly changed the same way, without needing any one big onscreen moment to justify it.

  3. #123

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I mean based on what we learn about fishman I would definitely say Zoro and Sanji were example of the prejudice that exist about fishmen. But I would expect them to be better now.
    The thing is is that how Zoro, Sanji, and even Luffy tend to call others and even each other names like Sanji calling Zoro “Marimo” and Luffy calling Foxy “Splithead,” which I think has less to do with prejudice at that point and more to do with a sort of tough, roughhousing attitude during times when things get intense or absurd in the moment, and not really to do with them claiming that fishmen are less than people, despite others using the term “fish” specifically for that reason. With Zoro and Sanji, it seems less like a prejudicial slur and more like they’re saying “small fry,” know what I mean?
    Last edited by electricmastro; July 7th, 2021 at 02:26 AM.

  4. #124
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    The thing is is that how Zoro, Sanji, and even Luffy tend to call others and even each other names like Sanji calling Zoro “Marimo” and Luffy calling Foxy “Splithead,” which I think has less to do with prejudice at that point and more to do with a sort of tough, roughhousing attitude during times when things get intense or absurd in the moment, and not really to do with them claiming that fishmen are less than people, despite others using the term “fish” specifically for that reason. With Zoro and Sanji, it seems less like a prejudicial slur and more like they’re saying “small fry,” know what I mean?
    I mean I dont think it matters why they chose to insult in this case. What matters is the insult they chose to use.



  5. #125

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Speaking of fishman and suffering. It is weird how scary guy Arlong was this guy who was bullied by humans and went to the most remote part of the weakest blue to find someone who couldn't possibly fight back to bully in revenge. Adds a different spin on Arlong Park

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    With how empty and hate-for-hate's-sake driven Hody was, I expect he'd have done the same had he gotten on the surface: get in some cul-de-sac village with no haki or DF users and bully the locals for kicks.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Knowing what we now know about racism against fishmen, it's certainly a little awkward to go back and read Sanji and Zoro calling them names in Arlong Park. But to be fair, I don't think it can be compared to Who's Who behavior. The strawhats had absolutely no idea about fishman discrimination - in fact, they had just learned that fishman existed at all. So, they are still ignorant, but it's not really their fault. Plus, they are also dealing with murderous asshole fishmen who have killed and extorted innocent people and basically enslaved their friend. They aren't insulting Arlong and his crew because they think fishmen are an inferior race, but because their enemies are evil assholes. They have no chance of knowing that they are basically using racial slurs, and they are not using out of racist reasons, but just to insult their enemies, for very understandable reasons.

    Contrast that with Who's Who, who is clearly completely aware of how fishman have been discriminated and enslaved in the past, and is acting completely insensitive despite his knowledge, while also expressing opinions that are based on prejudice.

  8. #128
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    I think be you can be a nice person and be casually racist. And for me Sanji and Zoro were exhibiting casual racism to those fishmen and probably would choose different insult now. If people dont want to think of our heores in those terms ever thats fine.



  9. #129

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I think be you can be a nice person and be casually racist. And for me Sanji and Zoro were exhibiting casual racism to those fishmen and probably would choose different insult now. If people dont want to think of our heores in those terms ever thats fine.
    This can indeed be demonstrated quite easily; by contrasting with the standard insults against people they don't like. "You bastard," "shitty son of a-" and so on. Insults aimed at their character, or the reputability of their mother. Not the state of their racial being. This is of course quite common when faced with an alien other. While Zoro and Sanji undeniably engaged in some casual racism, what speaks of their character is that we atleast assume them to have adjusted their views and behavior to match that which they have learned on their journey. Not dig in their heels and come up with excuses. It's okay to make mistakes when you don't know better. It's the growth that counts when contrasted with stances that keep the problem going.

    EDIT: This is indeed why it's more useful to point out racist behavior, instead of flatly proclaiming someone racist. Change the behavior and the status updates with it.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I mean I dont think it matters why they chose to insult in this case. What matters is the insult they chose to use.
    Well, you kinda delve into why when you make an accusation of there being prejudice, especially when Zoro and Sanji are being accused of being no different from Who’s-Who, or am I completely wrong on that?

    I’m not saying Zoro and Sanji weren’t ignorant at the time, though with Arlong choosing to murder Nami’s mom, choosing to make Nami suffer for years with abuse, and even choosing to resort to calling humans as inferior, Arlong wasn’t helping his case in painting fishmen in a better light in deserving less insults, even Zoro and Sanji’s fighting talk you can perceive any way you want, and more respect either.
    Last edited by electricmastro; July 7th, 2021 at 09:06 AM.

  11. #131
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    Well, you kinda delve into why when you make an accusation of there being prejudice, especially when Zoro and Sanji are being accused of being no different from Whoís-Who, or am I completely wrong on that?
    I mean I dont remember comparing to Who's who or anyone. Because it's pretty much the classic nice guy cant be racist/prejudice. What I said them was them choosing to comment on them being freaks and close to fish was casual racism.


    Iím not saying Zoro and Sanji werenít ignorant at the time, though with Arlong choosing to murder Namiís mom, choosing to make Nami suffer for years with abuse, and even choosing to resort to calling humans as inferior, Arlong wasnít helping his case in painting fishmen in a better light in deserving less insults, even Zoro and Sanjiís fighting talk you can perceive any way you want, and more respect either.
    Arlong being a racist asshole is not something I am disputing either and Sanji/Zoro throwing insults at bad guy isnt my problem. I care about the insults chosen. "Piece of shit". Fairly neutral. Comparing them to fish. Not neutral.



  12. #132
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    I figure that the Arlong Pirates were the first fishman the Straw Hats met and they didn't exactly set a good accord.

  13. #133

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I mean I dont remember comparing to Who's who or anyone. Because it's pretty much the classic nice guy cant be racist/prejudice. What I said them was them choosing to comment on them being freaks and close to fish was casual racism.



    Arlong being a racist asshole is not something I am disputing either and Sanji/Zoro throwing insults at bad guy isnt my problem. I care about the insults chosen. "Piece of shit". Fairly neutral. Comparing them to fish. Not neutral.
    You wanted Zoro and Sanji to respect them more by not calling them lousy fish? Fair enough.

    Also fair enough then for me to say that if people want to get less insults and more respect, then those people shouldn’t murder and abuse children like how Arlong unapologetically ended up doing. I don’t think I’m expecting too much out of people in not wanting them to be such murderous abusers.
    Last edited by electricmastro; July 7th, 2021 at 12:06 PM.

  14. #134
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    You wanted Zoro and Sanji to respect them more by not calling them lousy fish? Fair enough.

    Also fair enough then for me to say that if people want to get less insults and more respect, then those people shouldnít murder and abuse children like how Arlong unapologetically ended up doing. I donít think Iím expecting too much out of people in not wanting them to be such murderous abusers.
    They can call them lousy fish if they want same way Jimbei could call Doflamingo a disguting ape. I consider both would be displaying casual racism even if no one cares because the person in the person on the recieving end is despicable. Personally I still find it noticeable thats what they went for in their anger or mockery.



  15. #135
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Speaking of fishman and suffering. It is weird how scary guy Arlong was this guy who was bullied by humans and went to the most remote part of the weakest blue to find someone who couldn't possibly fight back to bully in revenge. Adds a different spin on Arlong Park
    He was a bullied outcast that became a supremacist and went somewhere to inflate that sense of superiority. Kinda common irl unfortunately.
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  16. #136

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    At any rate, nice of Oda to keep expanding on the world, whether in bigger or smaller ways, by highlighting how cowardly jerkasses out there use differences between them and others as an excuse to crap on them as if they're inferior trash, in light of Garp touching on religious bigotry, class imbalance, and inequality even amongst kings.

    Spoiler:



    Last edited by electricmastro; July 8th, 2021 at 06:25 PM.

  17. #137
    Discovered Stowaway astagadragon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    The discussion on the last page is the same as some ppl who searching for a public figure's old tweet/social media posts and gaslighting them on past racist slurs etc.

    Like what happened to James Gunn for example.

    I mean, come on... do we really dont have anything else to discuss?
    "The rain has ceased, and we have been graced by another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." - Elidibus

  18. #138

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Hmm, the god of dance and revelry. https://scififanletter.blogspot.com/...re-joyboy.html



  19. #139

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Calling something fairly obvious to deduce: the story ends with a huge party at the end of everything where everyone can take part of it; that's what every arc has been like, after all.

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizuchan View Post
    Calling something fairly obvious to deduce: the story ends with a huge party at the end of everything where everyone can take part of it; that's what every arc has been like, after all.
    Sort of wonder if Luffy's "secret dream" that comes after being the Pirate King is to throw a party for the entire world, or the world's biggest party or something like that. Or maybe something like he wants everyone in the world to be free.

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