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Thread: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

  1. #101

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    I'm of the opinion that Oda should have made Who'sWho say something blatantly discriminatory like "you filthy fish" or something like that. But he can't I guess, because he's gonna redeem him somehow.
    After all, outside of world nobles, did we get any major racist character?
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  2. #102
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    Due to that guard being disappeared for talking about Nika to Who's Who I do think he's a myth on actual facts. Otherwise if he was solely fictions there'd be no consequence for speaking about it. Its important enough that it made WW realize he had to escape after.
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  3. #103
    The English Avenger Satsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    To be honest, I don't get what makes Who'sWho a racist. Didn't he just have reserves about how quick Jinbe was on land ? IIRC, Fisher Tiger's death trap was all about bringing him in deep land...
    It's not so much about blatant racism than about sheer ignorance. Who's-Who isn't trying to outright insult Jinbei, but he's saying several things that are triggering or would just outright piss him off. And they're not having a chat in a cafe, they're in a fight. Not exactly the best place for a calm discussion.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Racism comes in many forms. Many go through their days without noticing that some of their casual ways of talking is racist. It's not until Who's Who sees Jinbe's reaction that he sees it and I doubt he fully understood that the things he said were undeniably racist. The only way to sympathize with Who's Who is if I casually do the same. Just go up to a Jewish person, not even in a fight or with aggression and ask them about camps. I don't see that as sensible. I'm glad Jinbe burst that bubble and if Who's Who survives this, maybe he learned that belittling a race to their hardships is wrong.

    My favorite part is the finger bending as he tries to hurt Jinbe and after that, it's how Jinbe punished him with the squeezing on the arm and stepping on his tail. Perfect punishment for a racist. Should have ripped his tail off.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Unless the translation is different, I didn’t find what who’s who said about jimbei being fast on land for a fishman racist.

  6. #106

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by tenchu View Post
    Unless the translation is different, I didn’t find what who’s who said about jimbei being fast on land for a fishman racist.
    Now I have no right to talk about racism nor do I have some great understanding of it and could be absolutely wrong here but this is how I understood it.

    It's not blatantly and directly racist but what about:

    The fact that fishmen are not slower than humans on land? They simply get a stat boost when in water.
    Fishmen are on average several times stronger than humans so naturally they should be at least as fast as humans and logically faster.
    Can you picture WW saying something like 'you are fast for a human' if Sanji dodged his attack for instance?

    He is taking a false generalization of fishmen and applying it to Jimbei

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Imagine meeting a black person and going "Hey, you are pretty good at x for a black person. Anyway, can you maybe tell me something about slavery, since that's what your culture is all about, right? I bet any black person is a total expert on slavery!" Of course that's racist lol. Maybe it's not even malicious, but it's ignorant racism - Who's Who obviously doesn't even realize that he is being really offensive.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    I suppose if you come from a surrounding where it is normal to say stuff like -Hey you are pretty generous for a jew or for a white guy you are pretty good at math then i could see why adding these type of you aren't as bad as your race would have led me to believe qualifiers doesn't immediately strike you as racism. But just a heads up, even if you don't get why, please don't try it IRL lol

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Said it in the spoiler section, but Who's Who's internalized racism works So. Much. Better. for me than what I and many others expected. That WW is a former curbstomping head-slaver, or Rear Admiral Kadar, who actively went after Fishmen before. You know, the usual extra thick Oda-approach to just about anything.

    No, Who's Who is just an ignorant asshole entertaining racial stereotypes. This isn't American History X - One Piece edition. It's your average Twitter newsfeed.

    What I find even more fascinating is that you can see Oda adapting his own views over the past decades.


    Like, look how Jinbe reacted to similiar generalisations 500 chapters ago:

    Spoiler:


    Crocodile: I thought only Mermaids could talk to fish. Didn't know you could summon Whalesharks.

    Jinbe: Is it so strange for a Fishman to be on friendly terms with sea creatures?

    Crocodile: It's unusual for Fishmen to be on friendly terms with anyone. You must be an exception to your barbaric race.

    Jinbe: I'll take that as a compliment. You're right! Fishmen are barbaric.


    Jinbe changed, Oda changed.

    He moved with the times!


  10. #110

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Said it in the spoiler section, but Who's Who's internalized racism works So. Much. Better. for me than what I and many others expected. That WW is a former curbstomping head-slaver, or Rear Admiral Kadar, who actively went after Fishmen before. You know, the usual extra thick Oda-approach to just about anything.

    No, Who's Who is just an ignorant asshole entertaining racial stereotypes. This isn't American History X - One Piece edition. It's your average Twitter newsfeed.

    What I find even more fascinating is that you can see Oda adapting his own views over the past decades.


    Like, look how Jinbe reacted to similiar generalisations 500 chapters ago:

    Spoiler:


    Crocodile: I thought only Mermaids could talk to fish. Didn't know you could summon Whalesharks.

    Jinbe: Is it so strange for a Fishman to be on friendly terms with sea creatures?

    Crocodile: It's unusual for Fishmen to be on friendly terms with anyone. You must be an exception to your barbaric race.

    Jinbe: I'll take that as a compliment. You're right! Fishmen are barbaric.


    Jinbe changed, Oda changed.

    He moved with the times!
    I wonder if the change in reactions will ever come up in the SBS...

    Looking back over the scene, Crocodile's words get Jinbe thinking about Arlong and the damage he caused, which is fair, but it does still seem strange to openly agree with such a huge generalisation.

    It's interesting that there were so few exchanges between Jinbe and Crocodile during the escape, actually. They were both Warlords, so were they ever made to work together? Oda could probably come up with some kind of relationship or shared history that justifies Croc getting a reluctant pass.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Oda paints the Shichibukai as very individualistic pirates that do the bare minimun, so it's not strange that they don't share a lot of past.

    I was very pleased as how careful Oda was with this theme this chapter too, great way to introduce how subtle racism can be - enough to make some reader in this forum question if that really was the case.

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by tenchu View Post
    Unless the translation is different, I didn’t find what who’s who said about jimbei being fast on land for a fishman racist.
    It's like saying "Wow, you're jumping high for a white person," or "I didn't know there were black people who could swim like you." It's blatantly racist to make remarks like that and Who's Who's remark is as well.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    I wonder if the change in reactions will ever come up in the SBS...

    Looking back over the scene, Crocodile's words get Jinbe thinking about Arlong and the damage he caused, which is fair, but it does still seem strange to openly agree with such a huge generalisation.
    My interpretation is that Jinbe, back then, was still too overwhelmed by guilt to talk back. Like he felt he was in no position to argue against the stereotype, being one of the most violent Fishman himself up until recently.

    But he grew, learned to forgive himself (also thanks to Nami) and is now standing up to bullshit.

    It's interesting that there were so few exchanges between Jinbe and Crocodile during the escape, actually. They were both Warlords, so were they ever made to work together? Oda could probably come up with some kind of relationship or shared history that justifies Croc getting a reluctant pass.
    It think Sengoku noted that a Warlords gathering is a super rare event, they were surprised when just 3 of them would obey the call for a meeting (Mihawk, Dofla, Kuma).
    So I guess there was no reason to believe Jinbe & Croc ever met or even fought together.


  14. #114

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
    It's not so much about blatant racism than about sheer ignorance. Who's-Who isn't trying to outright insult Jinbei, but he's saying several things that are triggering or would just outright piss him off. And they're not having a chat in a cafe, they're in a fight. Not exactly the best place for a calm discussion.
    Yeah, that's what I figured too. It's more in the sub-text
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  15. #115
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Its very telling how many ppl can't tell why what Who's Who said is racist and why.
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Its very telling how many ppl can't tell why what Who's Who said is racist and why.
    Especially considering Oda's from a country that's likely much more homogenous than 99% of this forum's users and likely has less experience with racism because of it. That he can depict this kind of casual racism with a modicum of nuance while so many can't even understand it is why talking about this stuff can be such an issue.
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  17. #117

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    Yeah, that's what I figured too. It's more in the sub-text
    It doesn't go along with the "fightin' talk" like what Sanji said about calling a fishman "a lousy fish" either, because I don't think many people would agree he's the same as Who's-Who in that Sanji was intended to be portrayed as a casual racist, who's hatefully discriminatory, despite what Sanji said.


    Last edited by electricmastro; July 6th, 2021 at 03:32 PM.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    My interpretation is that Jinbe, back then, was still too overwhelmed by guilt to talk back. Like he felt he was in no position to argue against the stereotype, being one of the most violent Fishman himself up until recently.

    But he grew, learned to forgive himself (also thanks to Nami) and is now standing up to bullshit.
    I really love this interpretation, because it hits home that Jinbe belongs to the Straw Hats, as he learned and matured by meeting them like all the others before him too.

    And some posts here really show that Oda not having blatantly state something even more racist was the totally right choice to convey his message. Racism isn't just always the most obvious stuff, like some drunk redneck shouting the n-word, but something fare more insidious and internalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    It doesn't go along with the "fightin' talk" like what Sanji said about calling a fishman "a lousy fish" either, because I don't think many people would agree he's the same as Who's-Who in that Sanji was intended to be portrayed as a casual racist, who's hatefully discriminatory, despite what Sanji said.
    It's also important to note that up to that point Sanji had seen very little of the world. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't hear such a statement out of him after witnessing both Sabaody Archipel as well as Fishman Island.


  19. #119
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    We already had Fishman Island arc to address prejudice and racism head-on, Oda doesn't have to be in-your-face about it any more unless he wants to.

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Especially considering Oda's from a country that's likely much more homogenous than 99% of this forum's users and likely has less experience with racism because of it. That he can depict this kind of casual racism with a modicum of nuance while so many can't even understand it is why talking about this stuff can be such an issue.
    It also shows how amazing he is as a writer. A homogenous people like the Japanese also are often xenophobic, whether consciously or subconsciously. They live on an island and don't come in contact often with people of darker skin, or even just different countries, so they tend to be very ignorant. The closest thing they have are the Ainu people from Hokkaido or the original inhabitants of Okinawa. "Critical Race Theory" or anything like it is something you would never hear being talked about, except maybe in the higher education circles. The modern era with the internet and many other ways of interacting with other far-away people is certainly helping, but the fact that Oda has such an understanding of prejudice speaks so well of him.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Chapter 1,018: Jinbe Vs. Who's-Who

    Quote Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
    We already had Fishman Island arc to address prejudice and racism head-on, Oda doesn't have to be in-your-face about it any more unless he wants to.



    It also shows how amazing he is as a writer. A homogenous people like the Japanese also are often xenophobic, whether consciously or subconsciously. They live on an island and don't come in contact often with people of darker skin, or even just different countries, so they tend to be very ignorant. The closest thing they have are the Ainu people from Hokkaido or the original inhabitants of Okinawa. "Critical Race Theory" or anything like it is something you would never hear being talked about, except maybe in the higher education circles. The modern era with the internet and many other ways of interacting with other far-away people is certainly helping, but the fact that Oda has such an understanding of prejudice speaks so well of him.
    I get the impression Oda has researched about the world enough to get an understanding of how places like Japan perceive outsiders, and that they don't have to be race/religion/culture supremacists or terrorists to get his attention either. That's not to take away from the racial prejudice certain people in America have, though to an extent, I suppose every country with a big enough population has had people who think highly of themselves whether it be religion or such and look towards others with suspicion or even fear which can then lead to hate.

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