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Thread: Chapter 1,017: The Order

  1. #81

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by ea77 View Post
    Want to know how the fans interpreted it?

    [COLOR=#3A3A3A][FONT=&quot][/I][/I][/I][/I][/I]

    https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_1017

    It seems, short of Oda in the manga having Who's Who say, "Yes, Roksuhiki is based on Haki. Here's how it works...", no implication or Vivre Card or Databook or Anime will be enough.
    Yeah, I scanned through the spoiler thread and saw you going back and forth with a couple of people over the Haki/Six Powers thing. I think you made your case well, but headcanon is a powerful thing. We can get CoC out of a man glaring at a fish, but can't fathom a link between two differently named ways to armour and weaponise the human body.

    The wiki summary is such a hard misinterpretation of the scene it hurts, but it's far from the only page on there presenting headcanon and conjecture as fact. I learned a long time ago to only use the wiki for hard data like names and numbers, and as a way to quickly find what chapter to look in for the real answer.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    I mean, blindness could be on the table here. Video snails don't seem to be that common now, let alone 12 years ago. Say you get a call or see a written report of someone finding a round, purple devil fruit, you could end up picturing either one (especially if you got a bit of confirmation bias toward the one you really wanted). By the time anyone who'd read the big book of fruits got there to confirm, Cipher Pol and Shanks had already heard the vague description and rushed in, just in case it was the real thing.

    I know it's a little more finicky than Oda usually gets for explanations, but I don't think it's totally unreasonable.

    And like I said, I like the theory. It has a good narrative ring to it that the hero and villain's powers could be mistaken for each other, and they each just happened to get one side of that visual coin, even though their goals would have put them on a collision course anyway. Bit of a fated showdown angle without it feeling too artificial. But liking a theory and thinking it's likely to actually be confirmed aren't always the same thing. While I'm not cut up about the fruit being important, the simpler explanations of it previously being used by someone important don't feel especially compelling yet.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhenja View Post
    I doubt Chopper will leave Wano while it’s citizens suffer from the side effects of the fruits
    I doubt Chopper will leave Punk Hazard without curing those poor, innocent kids. Oh, wait, he did. Sure he left them to Smoker, to supposedly ship them somewhere else where to get help, but it wouldn't be the first time Chopper disregards people suffering just to stick to "the plot".

    Had any strawhat followed their characterization, Fishman Island would've been Nami's island, and Sanji would be rushing to tell Kaido that you don't let people starve for your own business.

  3. #83
    the reVolutionary flandrian15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    I don't really thing there's much of a prophecy that has to do with Luffy himself.

    Roger probably knew he had to wait for Poseidon and that it would appear in 20 years time. Seeing he was dying and didn't have that amount of time he bet it all on his child being the one to lead in the new dawn. Shanks' might have know Roger had a child and learned about Dragon's son Luffy and deduced from this that Luffy being on some island in East Blue might mean Ace would be brought there to.
    This begs the question why Roger told Garp of all people? He turned himself in, meaning he had ample time to tell any of his old crewmates to go find his son, yet, he didn't. He told Garp, a marine who he might have respected but still a weird choice seeing how many other trustworthy crewmates or even Whitebeard he might have turned too. Was there something that made Roger mistrust his old crew perhaps, even Rayleigh? Garp is not commonly known as a good father I would assume?

    Cue Shanks being on an apparantly insignificant island in East Blue waiting for something for a year and only leaving closely after Luffy ate the fruit. The fruit they probably had planned to be eaten by Ace. By the drawing they had of it, it seems they probably knew what it is. It is all orchestration by Shanks from there on out. Yes, Luffy is strong, yes, he has CoC, yes he is extremely ambitious, yes he has a D in his name but Shanks made him into who he is. Shanks is his role model. Perhaps without Shanks Luffy wouldn't ever have wanted to be a pirate even and Shanks most probably also knew who Luffy was (son of Dragon, grandson of Garp, so like Ace, lots of potential) so he bet on another D. Any "prophecy" that you can see starts with Shanks. Him being careless and letting Luffy eat the fruit, him giving Luffy the hat, him passing the will to be a pirate to Luffy, ... This all happened AFTER Shanks had already known Luffy for sometime and perhaps he HAD to bet on Luffy because of him being careless and Luffy eating the fruit.

    BB might've had a long term plan that was set in motion by finding the Yami Yami no mi. Shanks might have had a long term plan too. It just started with another fruit?
    Last edited by flandrian15; June 28th, 2021 at 06:03 AM.
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  4. #84
    Discovered Stowaway ea77's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Yeah, I scanned through the spoiler thread and saw you going back and forth with a couple of people over the Haki/Six Powers thing. I think you made your case well, but headcanon is a powerful thing. We can get CoC out of a man glaring at a fish, but can't fathom a link between two differently named ways to armour and weaponise the human body.

    The wiki summary is such a hard misinterpretation of the scene it hurts, but it's far from the only page on there presenting headcanon and conjecture as fact. I learned a long time ago to only use the wiki for hard data like names and numbers, and as a way to quickly find what chapter to look in for the real answer.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---



    I mean, blindness could be on the table here. Video snails don't seem to be that common now, let alone 12 years ago. Say you get a call or see a written report of someone finding a round, purple devil fruit, you could end up picturing either one (especially if you got a bit of confirmation bias toward the one you really wanted). By the time anyone who'd read the big book of fruits got there to confirm, Cipher Pol and Shanks had already heard the vague description and rushed in, just in case it was the real thing.

    I know it's a little more finicky than Oda usually gets for explanations, but I don't think it's totally unreasonable.

    And like I said, I like the theory. It has a good narrative ring to it that the hero and villain's powers could be mistaken for each other, and they each just happened to get one side of that visual coin, even though their goals would have put them on a collision course anyway. Bit of a fated showdown angle without it feeling too artificial. But liking a theory and thinking it's likely to actually be confirmed aren't always the same thing. While I'm not cut up about the fruit being important, the simpler explanations of it previously being used by someone important don't feel especially compelling yet.
    I do see where it is coming from. The fans created an explanation for why CP9 didn't use haki, but that explanation was never ratified as fact. And now combined with a disdain for supplemetary material and a refusal to learn, we've gotten here. Ah well. Not my monkeys, not my circus. I can't wait for "Who's Who says Tekkai whe using Armamnent Haki to mock Jinbei. Follows by "Jinbei calls Kamie CoO to insult Who's Who."
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  5. #85

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by astagadragon View Post
    Why... why would you need TWO chapters of Tama taking stage and ordering mooks? I think it can be compressed within 1 chapter!
    I actually liked the Tama sections, they kinda showcase the idea that despite all her exploits in this chapter, she's still a little girl who is confronting fears that an ordinary grown-up wouldn't. Giving her a scene where she hesitates or where she panics because a giant cyborg dinosaur suddenly shouted at her humanizes her as a character.

    If there's anything Wano needs in general it's more lingering and slow scenes like this and showing the substance of the things that are happening, instead of this constant switching between 15 different situations. The slower stuff may be boring for us weekly readers that just want to get to the deets asap, but they're the glue that holds the volumes together and makes them readable.

    Quote Originally Posted by astagadragon View Post
    Zoro's drugs ex machina leave a very bad taste in my mouth. What's preventing them to use it later on Sanji, Kidd and co to gank Kaido again? Nah I guess the doc only carry ONE for the super speshul Mr. Bushido.
    I think the big set-up here is to have the effects run out just as the Zoro fight reaches its climax, and then put him into the position of having to finish the fight while under ultra severe pain.

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  6. #86

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by flandrian15 View Post
    Cue Shanks being on an apparantly insignificant island in East Blue waiting for something for a year and only leaving closely after Luffy ate the fruit. The fruit they probably had planned to be eaten by Ace.
    Immagine being Shanks' crew back then:
    you risk your life to get this most precious DF from the litteral claws of the CP9, then hide in plain sight for a year while you have a big potential admiral target on your back for stealing the above mentioned DF, because your captain says it's paramount that kid X eats it.
    Then the fruit is eaten by random kid Y,
    your captain first gets pissed on by the village moron and then loses his arm to a big eel, all to save random kid Y,
    finally your captain, lost the legendary fruit, lost an arm, not havng even sighted chosen kid X, also gifts his most precius memento to random kid Y and says you're sailing and calls the whole thing a success.

    Now, in nobody left after that Shanks' surely extremely talented in pickig his men either among the most loyal or the most mental.
    Last edited by Alfiere; June 28th, 2021 at 06:36 AM.
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  7. #87

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Oda made them beast pirates because he wanted to do Momotaro.

    He didn't do Momotaro because he had beast pirates.

    Similarly, Big Mom's hunger cravings were built around Sanji being able to cook.

    Those are major story elements that were designed around hero showcase, not the other way around. It's not plot convenience, its why that plot is there in the first place.
    No matter how one dresses it up, it's just unsatisfying writing. Beast pirates were hyped up since PH years ago, and then god drops the perfect plot counter against them at the very start of the arc we fight them.

    I too will go ahead and open up my filing cabinet to show why it's bad writing.

    Chapter 1004 analysis:
    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPhil View Post
    No, Momonosuke having "momo" in his name was not foreshadowing that there would be a child on wano with the fucktheSMILES-fucktheSMILES fruit. And even if it were, it still harms narrative for me, no matter how awesome the original folklore it's based upon is.
    So, the core of my problem with the Tama situation, like many things in the Wano arc, is that it doesn't feel earned.
    -A story is supposed to make you feel things, so long as it isn't disappointment or boredom.
    -The good guys have to struggle and overcome in a story.

    Last chapter, Oda showed us that the heroes are totally, royally screwed if things stay the way they are. This is good, it makes the reader feel anticipation, tension. We want to see what awesome development turns the tide. Do the straw hats cleverly reveal a trump card? Does an awesome character we want to see show up?
    Oda then follows it up with this chapter. He wants us to feel hype, relief, as if we want to cheer Tama on for saving the day. But I just feel disappointment and like I'm cheated by the story itself. This isn't a satisfying way to relieve the tension. The heroes didn't earn this, the perfect power fell in their lap, and instantly voids a plot point that was built up for a long time as important.
    The problem with post-timeskip One Piece is that Oda juggles a million billion plot points and characters, which he can never all flesh out and give time to breathe. As a result, we haven't gotten invested yet and things just don't feel earned.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPhil View Post
    What was Oda's goal this chapter? Tama is the focal character. We're supposed to care about her and cheer her on for saving the day after last chapter told us how screwed the heroes are.

    [on Tama before act 3] I agree and I think she's fine there. Though I have worries about her ridiculously specific convenient power that Oda put in to very blatantly serve the plot. If it's not used too egregiously, and if there's a limit to her power, fine I can suspend my disbelief.
    Anyway, I like Tama here. I like her design. I care about her plight. She has a theme going on about hunger, perseverance and generosity, OK. I'm invested. I expect this to be one of the focal characters in the entire arc along with Momo. And then Oda sidelines her, focuses on a billion other characters and crams a million different themes into the arc that all need development and attention. Now I kind of lose investment in her.
    I'm just not invested in Tama enough to care.

    Then this chapter comes around, her powers are limitless, instantly mind controlling the enemy without any struggle which is the lamest possible way to relieve the tension set by last chapter. On top of this, her themes about hunger and generosity have no payoff. She just mind controls people. I also don't care much about her saving the day, because I'm not invested in her character anymore. I didn't see her struggle at all, all I have is her backstory about being hungry. That's what I mean about it not feeling earned.


    Plot convenience, good and bad.
    Spoiler:

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPhil View Post
    All that matters is if the story is entertaining. Convenience is necessary, it's how it serves the story that matters. If it results in entertaining scenes, good. If it's too jarringly perfect, bending the plot around itself, bad.

    Good example: Enel being countered by rubber. If it didn't Luffy would die and there would be no more One Piece. Instead, we get possibly the most hilarious moment in the whole manga, which to this day has spawned an entire meme. Even people who don't know what One Piece is recognize the face on Spongebob from the memes. Since Luffy didn't die, we can now have a good fight that caps off the arc. The fight isn't boring because Enel can still use his power to make a weapon that can harm Luffy, and mantra is still something Luffy struggles against and needs to overcome. Luffy having rubber powers is also the foundation of One Piece. Enel's lightning powers weren't built up for years only for Luffy to get rubber powers on Skypea.

    Bad example: Naruto 1-shotting Kakuzu. This actually made me hate Naruto and drop it. Kakuzu is an ancient immortal demigod ninja who was built up insanely hard for the whole arc. Even Kakashi was outclassed. however, Kishimoto wanted to give Naruto shine and raise an extremely forced theme about the new generation overcoming the old. So Kakazu had to suddenly become an idiot and fall for the most obvious trick ever. Apparently me, a 15 year old white boy at the time can see it coming, but an ancient elite ninja can't. So he got one shotted by a rookie who trained for a year. No, I'm not hyped at how strong Naruto is, it's too obviously forced and betrays all the buildup Kakuzu got. I was actually mad at my intelligence being insulted.

    It's all a storytelling tool and it's a matter of how you use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenchu View Post
    Explain what is a dark hour, what is it that you want?.
    Basically the bad guys should win for a bit. Like the end of Water 7, which was the darkest moment for the straw hats, leading into the climax of Enies Lobby. Almost every story depends on tension to carry us into the climax where the heroes win against all odds. The raid has no tension, Luffy just keeps getting back up every time and it seems like everyone is just going to win their fights now.
    The only tension in this arc is Onigashima threatening to crash down on on some minor side characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfiere View Post
    The pacing was terrible. What was the point of the first page? Tama fainting seems an unexpected roadblock but next thing you know she's back on her feet and gives the order no problem.
    It's Oda trying to create a little bit of struggle for Tama. She struggles, but then overcomes her fears to save the day. But lol at it lasting for a single panel. You can't create drama in a single panel. It takes time but Onigashima constantly has tension for like 1 second before it's immediately resolved.
    Last edited by DoctorPhil; June 28th, 2021 at 06:21 AM.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Tama's power was established at the very very start of Wano, including its specific ability to affect Kaidou's troops, it's not exactly out of nowhere? And they've spent a *lot* of time setting it up on the island spreading the balls and getting her to a position where they could make this move. It didn't come out of complete nowhere.

    Skypeia gave us dials. Water 7 had the crew pulling powers literally out of nowhere. Thriller Bark gave Luffy a 100 shadow power up. Dresserossa had a colosseum full of fighters. Zou ended with the elephant effortlessly swatting Jack.

    The crew gets helps from the locals, and sometimes major powerups, it's not a new thing.

    I'm not sure why people are so fussed about it.
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Tama's power was established at the very very start of Wano, including its specific ability to affect Kaidou's troops, it's not exactly out of nowhere?
    just because it was established on chapter 1 of the Wano Saga, doesn't mean that having a little plot device that can at will change the enemy into an ally is a well-thought-out or satisfying writing choice for that matter.

    Had Luffy won every single encounter with Eneru, just to keep your Skypeia reference, just because he had been set up as a rubber boy in the first chapter it wouldn't have made it interesting either. Oda had to throw hurdles in Luffy's ways. There are no hurdles's in Tama's, aside from a half-page half-faint-out.
    Last edited by Piitan; June 28th, 2021 at 06:33 AM.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Piitan View Post
    There are no hurdles's in Tama's, aside from a half-page half-paint-out.
    Aside from the whole bunch of times she was targeted by and almost killed by Ulti and Big Mom? Or how they lost her big doggie bodyguard? Or how they had to figure out how to broadcast her message to the biggest possible audience? Or how she had to sneak aboard an enemy ship and hide to get there in the first place? Or how she was helpless and attacked and kidnapped constantly at the start of the arc?

    There's no hurdles left because they already spent the last twenty five chapters jumping over them. Since November! For nearly nine months!

    And she still has to stay out of trouble and survive the rest of this arc.
    Last edited by Robby; June 28th, 2021 at 06:41 AM.
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  11. #91
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Aside from the whole bunch of times she was targeted by and almost killed by Ulti and Big Mom?
    All situations resolved within the same page or the next. Nothing that could actually impress the reader since by the time he goes, "Oh, no, what now?" the entire premise is already exhausted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Or how they lost her big doggie bodyguard?
    She lost the monkey, too. Do you see anybody mourning their loss? Tama herself? They were non-entities used merely for padding time. Not even in-universe were they acknowledged aside from, "Oh, there he goes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Or how they had to figure out how to broadcast her message to the biggest possible audience?
    They didn't have to figure out shit. Maria happened by and Usopp proposed it. Don't pretend like it was a chapters-long issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Or how she had to sneak aboard an enemy ship and hide to get there in the first place?
    Off-paneled. Perfect way to make me feel for some character: let her do stuff and me not seeing it. Man, is Tama struggling between them chapters, in Oda's imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Or how she was helpless and attacked and kidnapped constantly at the start of the arc?
    Those are the only times I kinda liked Tama: when she was a simple kid minding her business and BP pirates attacked her. None of that was kept once we reached Onigashima. In fact, I consider it a mistake having brought Tama, narratively, on the floating island. She should've stayed in the village, to help in the next act, after the miss collision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    There's no hurdles left because they already spent the last twenty five chapters jumping over them. For nearly eight months.
    And she still has to stay out of trouble and survive the rest of this arc.
    C'mon, Robby, I've read smarter posts by you than this one. Do you really get the impression that Tama is struggling to do anything? This very chapter, the one obstacle thrown her way was removed the very next page.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    I am really gonna hope for CP-0 agents to be former CP-9 we know just to comment about Who's Who.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  13. #93

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Aside from the whole bunch of times she was targeted by and almost killed by Ulti and Big Mom? Or how they lost her big doggie bodyguard? Or how they had to figure out how to broadcast her message to the biggest possible audience? Or how she had to sneak aboard an enemy ship and hide to get there in the first place? Or how she was helpless and attacked and kidnapped constantly at the start of the arc?

    There's no hurdles left because they already spent the last twenty five chapters jumping over them. Since November! For nearly nine months!

    And she still has to stay out of trouble and survive the rest of this arc.
    To be fair DoctorPhil, none of the examples you have stated were as impactful and absolutely tension breaking as Tama's power.

    Tama's power effectivel makes Kaidou's greates weapon, his beasts, useless.

    I think its OK to agree that her power's are a lame plot point comparable to the magical Senzu bean that has never existed in One Piece until now.

    Its ok, it moves the plot forward, but its still unsatisfying.

    I will agree with Greg, Oda isn't the full authority in how the story progresses. Perhaps this was one of the editor's mandate, who knows.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Speaking of Tama, Momo, the one character who should have had more impact, has been next to useless.

    Lol.

    All he's done is cry and get saved. At least Tama took initiative and did something. Her coming to Onigashima, imo, is similar to kid Luffy going against the blue jam pirates.

    I just wish that her fruit wasn't so perfect. It has zero weaknesses
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Momo should've been the only Momotaro reference, and he, though his charisma, paralleling a young Luffy, should've convinced the three mythological animals to join him in his fight against Kaido (well, two animals, since the monkey was already on his side since Punk Hazard), ultimately replacing the dragon at the top of the Wano hierarchical ladder.

  15. #95
    the reVolutionary flandrian15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfiere View Post
    Immagine being Shanks' crew back then:
    you risk your life to get this most precious DF from the litteral claws of the CP9, then hide in plain sight for a year while you have a big potential admiral target on your back for stealing the above mentioned DF, because your captain says it's paramount that kid X eats it.
    Then the fruit is eaten by random kid Y,
    your captain first gets pissed on by the village moron and then loses his arm to a big eel, all to save random kid Y,
    finally your captain, lost the legendary fruit, lost an arm, not havng even sighted chosen kid X, also gifts his most precius memento to random kid Y and says you're sailing and calls the whole thing a success.

    Now, in nobody left after that Shanks' surely extremely talented in pickig his men either among the most loyal or the most mental.
    Lol, if you put it that way...

    But I guess they didn't consider it a failure anymore after hearing what Luffy said, which is also the point where Shanks gave Luffy the hat, which is apparantly more important then it seemed at the time. Also, if we imagine Shanks' crew being like Luffy's, always believing in their captain no matter what then no one would leave by what should be considered to be a setback. They still would've had many years to solve the problem. No one says the only roadro success would be by obtaining the gomu gomu no mi. It might only have been A path, not the only path.
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  16. #96
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhenja View Post




    Not saying he‘s going to do it during the raid. After Kaido is defeated…
    I doubt Chopper will leave Wano while it’s citizens suffer from the side effects of the fruits, while he’s at it why not cure everyone who wants to be cured. I doubt any of the grifters would want to remain in their state after Kaido is defeated.
    After that they can join the grand fleet to repay their debt to the Strawhats.
    After being subjected to the whims of Tama, I highly doubt any of the gifters are going to feel indebted to the strawhats and join their fleet. That would be the exact opposite situation of Dressrosa.

    I really don't think Chopper is going to cure that. I think the ppl afflicted are going to learn how to live with their plight.

    Also looking back when I think about it, kinda crazy that Doflamingo didn't keep a personal army of gifters (just the excess/extras) with him on Dressrosa. Would've been a whole other hurdle for the strawhats.
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    The thing that always trips me up with Tama is how hyper-specific and all-encompassing a counter it is, and how little thematic integration its application has.

    Like, take something like Enel vs Luffy, where Luffy conveniently can counter the assumed omnipotence Enels thunder, because he's rubber. But any rubber would perform similarly in this scenario, not just Luffy, and the story makes a point of highlighting that Enel doesn't know what something as common as rubber even is, that the concept of things not being conductive -something implicitly understood as normal by the readers - is alien to him. This also feeds into Enels delusions of godly grandeur being in part informed by his unawareness of the larger world, hence a blue-sea monkey taking him down a peg.

    With the beast pirates, its wildly different. The "lock" and "key" parameters in this scenario are wayyyyyyyyy more specific. Its nothing as clean as "the beast pirates set themselves up to fail because they didn't consider this weakness of being part animal", because exploiting said "weakness" is only possible by one specific magic user in the entire wide One Piece world. No other dangos would suffice. Its like if Luffy was the only non-conductive thing in the One Piece world. And it requires absolutely no foresight, no know-how of animals, not even any direct action on the part of the ability user. The ability being transmitted through food doesn't even relate coherently to starving orphan Tama having said ability, because the dangos are not even offered in kindness, they are not offered to hungry opponents, they can just be forced down "animals" throats by other already controlled "animals", but only these specific, non-high-tier ones.

    And all in the very very first person Luffy meets on the island, who wants to be a ninja, not a beast trainer.

    Add to that how Tama was targeted by Holdem because her ability was deemed of interest, which was forgotten until people made the same realization again in Onagashima, and how the only other time Tama used her ability inbetween those things was to cover up the Udon escape in an insanely specific way, and you have an ability that is employed pretty bluntly as a plot problem-solving device.


    I don't really see how this is comparable with "extremely isolated Skypea has alien technology" or "crewmembers can think up new combat ideas". Tama is more akin to if the first person the crew met in Alabasta had a "tell the truth tell the truth" ability, and used it to expose the Baroque work machinations early in the Alubarna climax. Its the extreme specificity of Tamas influence in the plot that grates

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Come to think of it, is Tamas ability sort of a pseudo poseidon? Pseudo voice-of-all-things even? Like, through the power of Dango, what exactly stops her from encroaching on what were supposedly Shirahoshi and Momos claim to fame?

    Eh, maybe Zeuneisha and Sea Kings can cover their intestines with advances armament haki of a magnitude of enough Cavendishes to nullify the dango or something, probably

  18. #98

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    The thing that always trips me up with Tama is how hyper-specific and all-encompassing a counter it is, and how little thematic integration its application has.

    Like, take something like Enel vs Luffy, where Luffy conveniently can counter the assumed omnipotence Enels thunder, because he's rubber. But any rubber would perform similarly in this scenario, not just Luffy, and the story makes a point of highlighting that Enel doesn't know what something as common as rubber even is, that the concept of things not being conductive -something implicitly understood as normal by the readers - is alien to him. This also feeds into Enels delusions of godly grandeur being in part informed by his unawareness of the larger world, hence a blue-sea monkey taking him down a peg.

    With the beast pirates, its wildly different. The "lock" and "key" parameters in this scenario are wayyyyyyyyy more specific. Its nothing as clean as "the beast pirates set themselves up to fail because they didn't consider this weakness of being part animal", because exploiting said "weakness" is only possible by one specific magic user in the entire wide One Piece world. No other dangos would suffice. Its like if Luffy was the only non-conductive thing in the One Piece world. And it requires absolutely no foresight, no know-how of animals, not even any direct action on the part of the ability user. The ability being transmitted through food doesn't even relate coherently to starving orphan Tama having said ability, because the dangos are not even offered in kindness, they are not offered to hungry opponents, they can just be forced down "animals" throats by other already controlled "animals", but only these specific, non-high-tier ones.

    And all in the very very first person Luffy meets on the island, who wants to be a ninja, not a beast trainer.

    Add to that how Tama was targeted by Holdem because her ability was deemed of interest, which was forgotten until people made the same realization again in Onagashima, and how the only other time Tama used her ability inbetween those things was to cover up the Udon escape in an insanely specific way, and you have an ability that is employed pretty bluntly as a plot problem-solving device.


    I don't really see how this is comparable with "extremely isolated Skypea has alien technology" or "crewmembers can think up new combat ideas". Tama is more akin to if the first person the crew met in Alabasta had a "tell the truth tell the truth" ability, and used it to expose the Baroque work machinations early in the Alubarna climax. Its the extreme specificity of Tamas influence in the plot that grates

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Come to think of it, is Tamas ability sort of a pseudo poseidon? Pseudo voice-of-all-things even? Like, through the power of Dango, what exactly stops her from encroaching on what were supposedly Shirahoshi and Momos claim to fame?

    Eh, maybe Zeuneisha and Sea Kings can cover their intestines with advances armament haki of a magnitude of enough Cavendishes to nullify the dango or something, probably
    We really need a Thumbs up feature in this forum.

    I completely thumb this UP.

    @mods, serious question, I love this community and would not mind contributing towards adding such a feature. I think its innocuous, and it would improve the quality of discussions.
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  19. #99
    Banned Rank: Failed Mutineer
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    F.O.

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Come to think of it, is Tamas ability sort of a pseudo poseidon? Pseudo voice-of-all-things even? Like, through the power of Dango, what exactly stops her from encroaching on what were supposedly Shirahoshi and Momos claim to fame?
    Imo, Tama's ability only works on animals. As in, on the lowest of creatures. Sea kings, Zunisha, and whatever else Oda comes up with for the air-element possess a higher awareness, quasi-human, so they'd negate Tama's DF by will alone.

    However, by my own definition, only half of each smile user should fall victim to Tama's DF, as in: Babanuki should retain his will, but the elephant on his torso should be Tama's slave. So, in the end? I don't think Oda's thought it through.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Piitan View Post
    Imo, Tama's ability only works on animals. As in, on the lowest of creatures. Sea kings, Zunisha, and whatever else Oda comes up with for the air-element possess a higher awareness, quasi-human, so they'd negate Tama's DF by will alone.

    However, by my own definition, only half of each smile user should fall victim to Tama's DF, as in: Babanuki should retain his will, but the elephant on his torso should be Tama's slave. So, in the end? I don't think Oda's thought it through.
    Wow,

    That is actually a fucking brillaint idea.
    Especially after we saw that animals directly act against the user's intentions.

    Damn, that's really brilliant.

    GG.
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

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