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Thread: Chapter 1,017: The Order

  1. #181

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    While I've been strongly defending Onigashima save for a few minor hiccups, the reoccuring complaint that it lacks tension is one I think actually holds water. People were expecting and hoping to see a tenser, more uphill battle against a more overwhelming enemy than we got, and the tension break isn't having the catharsis expected of it because even the darkest hour of the battle never really got that dark.
    Maybe that's what there is to it indeed. Reading Robby's list, I have to admit Tama is possibly not even the worst offender we've had throughout the years in terms of providential saviors (she's still bad, though. If we're paralleling Momotaro I would rather have the food taming part at least be an achievement of Momo, or Chopper researching a cure to defectuous Smiles, or why not Sanji cooking for hungry people. That there's a Devil Fruit power that happens to specifically obliterate the will of Gifters still makes me cringe).
    Yet, there is something about Onigashima and its execution that makes Tama's part irk me when in the past I've welcomed similar plot devices as just an awesome moment. Maybe indeed because the tension we're supposed to feel from this battle was never quite there due to pacing issues and how the different fights are showcased. And so when Tama's turn in the spotlight comes, suspension of disbelief is simply not there anymore.
    Last edited by Seafarer33; June 29th, 2021 at 06:57 AM.

  2. #182

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    We had that story in Impel Down. Luffy entered alone, left with multiple Warlords, Dragon's second in command, several old enemies and a ton of fodder mooks to help out.

    Sort of got it again in Dresserossa, Luffy built an army of impromptu allies behind him on the fly.

    And again on Cake island.

    Them going in with no one and ending up with a ton of allies isn't a new trick. Inevitable in a series this long with this many arcs.
    I get what you're saying, but I think it would have worked a little different for Onigashima because it wouldn't be about recruiting allies as we go (save for Tama shenanigans anyway and Drake and Yamato turning coat). We know we have allies, we've spent most of the past decade gathering them, so it's all about when and how they arrive.

    A few posts back I made an Avengers Endgame comparison and I think it still holds up here. Onigashima is like if the final battle there had opened with the portal scene, with all the lost allies the movie had been about restoring assembling to fight. But the portal scene worked so well because it was a release of tension after the core group tried to fight Thanos alone and were being beaten down and put on the back foot. I'm wondering if there could have been a version of the Onigashima battle with more of that structure, where Oda doesn't take us into the fight with all the heroes' cards faceup.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post

    A few posts back I made an Avengers Endgame comparison and I think it still holds up here. Onigashima is like if the final battle there had opened with the portal scene, with all the lost allies the movie had been about restoring assembling to fight. But the portal scene worked so well because it was a release of tension after the core group tried to fight Thanos alone and were being beaten down and put on the back foot. I'm wondering if there could have been a version of the Onigashima battle with more of that structure, where Oda doesn't take us into the fight with all the heroes' cards faceup.
    I mean Oda already did it when Luffy, Law, Kidd and later on Denjiro and Jinbe so I don't see him pulling the same thing twice.

  4. #184

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    I mean Oda already did it when Luffy, Law, Kidd and later on Denjiro and Jinbe so I don't see him pulling the same thing twice.
    That's what I'm saying. Oda brought the allies in - did the portal scene - right at the start of the arc, before even landing on the island, and Marco's arrival came only a handful of chapters later. The cavalry came before Luffy even made eye contact with Kaido, let alone get pushed into a corner by him.

    What I was musing on is how this arc might have felt different if Oda had spaced out those arrivals more to let the crew feel slightly more outmatched in the early stages of the conflict. It's a 'what if...' kind of thought.

  5. #185
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Whatever Magellan was using it was potent enough to eat through solid concrete/steel quality material. The EFFECT was basically using acid.

    If its called something else, that's fine.
    But Robby, we literally see people come into contact with it and react not at all as if they had been touched by acid; a dude went “oh no I have been infected with poison” with another person “yer a goner now”, then the infection got passed on, then the persons keeled over once the poison took hold of them, all the while Magellan explicitly calling it…poison. It was poison. I don’t get why you’re so adamant on the idea that Magellans poison was a non factor during the escape when that is in no way framed as such during Impel Down itself?

    And that was the reason I brought this up, not because of you specifically, but because I found the stated notion that the threat of Magellans poison was void during the escape completely baffling. Looking at the origin of the topic, the order went, as far as I can tell
    - You bring up Ivankov as an example of the normality of a convenient ally coming to the rescue
    - Kevo Korma points out that at least Ivankov didn’t generate an antidote to render everyone immune to the poison – i.e. there were comparatively more restraint here
    - You counter this with “Ivankov did in fact render Luffy immune to poisons”, which I can only assume is you dismissing the notion of Kevo Korma saying Ivankov was more restrained (“his ability was actually not that restraint”), because your main argument is the normality of the Tama-level convenient solutions.
    Is that a fair assessment? And this is where I object to interpretation of Ivankov, in the context of the impel down arc and its stakes, rendering Magellans poison threat moot, even for just Luffy.
    You say that I’m exaggerating and twisting your words, but bottom line is me just rebuffing your own statement, and nothing more, of
    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    if that was the only thing Magellan had available, Luffy could probably have taken him then, though still with trouble.

    Luffy did not however develop ACID immunity, which is what Magellan was using at the end.
    I’m rebuffing your interpretation that Ivankov was SO convenient that he nullified the established poison threat of Magellan, who then had to concoct a NEW non-poison based threat to be relevant again, because its just not in the text. It would render the wax armor scene completely, utterly pointless, because by that logic Luffy could have just touched regular Magellan without wax. It requires willfully recategorizing Magellans last super poison so that, contrary to what everyone says in the manga, its not actually poison. It is an interpretation born out of info coming 100 chapters later, and involves a radical reinterpretation of the threat and stakes of the final escape…
    …all for the sake of arguing increased relative convenience for Ivankov in the Impel Down arc, in order to make him comparable as precedence for Tamas convenience? If not, why bring up poison immunity and Magellan being supposedly impotent during the final escape save for his final move which is now supposedly not poison?


    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    This case is extra weird because it was obvious 10 years ago Oda was going to do some Momotaro shenanigans, and really obvious three years ago when we first met Tama.


    ..is this a western thing where we didn't grow up with the tale of Momotaro so all the stuff is just weird and out of place to us, while its perfectly natural to the Japanese readers?

    Like if Oda incorporated a Cinderella motif we wouldn't blink at a glass slipper being introduced despite it making no sense? So to us feeding an animal a treat and taming them is just belief breaking and unreasonable??
    But as stated before, it being rooted in a folk tale doesn’t really automatically excuse however its handled in story, neither does how far in advance it is seeded. And since the full payoff is coming now, it makes sense for people to object now, same as people would object to a character resurrection when it happens even if it had been anticipated for ages.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I'm not saying they are irrelevant.

    I'm saying *Tama's one action is not singlehandedly winning the whole thing.* as was being stated.

    She's helping. It's providing a turn around. It's dealing with something... but not something Oda was going to focus on heavily otherwise. The gifters were never going to be THE thing that stopped the crew, they were always going to be for the secondaries. For example the minks could have been the solution instead if Oda wanted, but they were never going to be stopping Zoro and Luffy as more than a distraction..
    For the record, I never stated that Tama was winning the war singlehandedly either. But a big part of the argument, which I do agree with, is that whatever you might think of them, the smiles/gifters have been set up, for 100s of chapters, as an extremely vital part of Kaidous operation to target. And If we can settle on the gifters not being complete jokes, and them actually mattering, then it just seems we disagree on how much. With the amount of paneltime, the amount of chapters dedicated specifically to this plot thread, how much it has been mined it for drama, how much time has been spent on it both before and in Onagashima, and the emphasis that this really matters in the scheme of the war, I think that its fair that the solution to countering all that is interrogated. And for many, the convenience of the solution is unsatisfying

    Whereas, if I understand correctly, you seem to say that while the gifter plotline does matter, it doesn’t matter enough that it can’t be handled in this extremely convenient particular way – the gifters don’t matter enough for people to be hung up over the handling of Tama. And we can’t convince each other otherwise.
    All I can say is, if Oda wants me to fully buy into the emotions and drama of the events this chapter, to say nothing of the preceding chapters of Tama on Onagashima, then it not ideal when I find the underlying mechanics sloppy and convenient.
    *************
    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    If you don't like it personally that's fine, but its really really weird to me that people are acting like this came out of nowhere or that its magnititudes out of line compared to the help they've gotten before.

    Its all a matter of context, and compound convenience I feel.
    With something like Ivankov, convenient as it is, at least Ivankov is an extremely senior and notorious combatant in the OP world as opposed to a complete no-name civilian.

    At least it is presented as if the poison healing is a specific skill he has developed with serious complications instead of a baseline DF skill that works instantly with no side effects.

    At least Ivankovs whole establishment and characterization is that he’s a miracle worker and body-warping hormone specialist who knows the body inside out.

    And at least its just used to cure Luffy of that one specific case of poisoning, and not as a complete nullifier of the aspect of poison threat in the rest of the arc, unless you’re going full revisionist history.

    And yeah, it is convenient that there is a super poison-healer in the prison, definitely, but the Problem and solution – the “lock” and “key” – of “Poison” and “Cure For Poison” are not that insanely specific. Theres’ plenty of poison in the world, and plenty of ways to cure poison. Ivankov could be relevant in many other situations, and again, his presence doesn’t fully nullify Magellans poison threat in the arc. But in comparison, the Problem and Solution in this case are “super-specific animal-hybrid soldiers only found in this particular crew due to an extremely elaborate and cutting edge science project/supply chain” and “DF ability to convert these specific animal hybrid people only found here into permanent allies”.

    It’d be one thing if it was a case of “the beast pirates have a lot of beasts, and are countered by a master beast tamer the SHs’ met who has trained herself to counter the beast pirate beasts”
    Adding “the beast pirates themselves include a bunch of permanent beast-human hybrids as one of their trademarks, and are countered by a master beast tamer to counter the beast pirate hybrid-beasts” makes things a bit more specific and convenient.

    Adding “its not really animal taming, its just a DF ability that befriends animals and these specific hybrid people of this specific crew that exist nowhere else, but specifically not other DF animal people” makes things more convenient.
    Adding “converting the “animals” requires no skill, it is literally the baseline functionality of the DF” adds more convenience, “the ability wasn’t developed as a counter to the beast pirates, it required no intelligence gathering like Brook with the salt or the Dwarves with Sugar, this one person just… happened to have this perfect ability” adds more, “the effects are permanent and can be passed on from one enemy soldier to another, instantly overriding all loyalty and self-preservation” adds even more, and then yeah theres the fact that said counter-ability is established in chapter 1 of the arc it will be relevant in…after 200+ chapters in advance establishing the specific problem it is to counter. Its literally “here is the solution to the problem”, straight off the bat. Which again makes things just…that more convenient. It all stacks up.

    Yeah, theres been convenient helpers before, but Tama is like if we’d spent hundreds of chapters building up the obstacle of the Impel Down poison-man, and then first thing that happens when Luffy gets to the prison, first random no-name no-notoriety no-experience prisoner he meets has the “instant poison immunity/curation ability, not ALL kinds of poison mind you, but specifically Magellans poison definitely”, a skill that is the baseline non-effort function of the DF said person – who isn’t even really a doctor or anything. Just a guy.

    Or like if the first random civilian in Alabasta had the “expose all lies expose all lies” DF that was then used to compel all the baroque works agents to tell the truth. The more extremely specific you make these things, the less organic they feel.

  6. #186

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Okay Daz, you wrote a long thing... but you have completely missed the point I was actually making to home in on something else entirely. And I already explained that to you, and you're still homing in on the other thing.

    Sorry, I respect the time you took to write all that, but I'm done following up on what was a one line joke with all due seriousness.

    You don't like Tama's ability, that's fine. And you felt the build up of the beast pirates was treated more seriously than I did, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong to be disappointed.

    I dunno why we're getting such different levels of expectation from this, but that's fine.


    If Tama converted the entire 40,000 army, or was taking out the top 6 guys, I'd completely agree with you it was ridiculous and overpowered and cheap.

    But she affected less than 0.013% of them, none of the big main threats, and after a year of buildup.

    Allies helping fight mooks is allies helping fight mooks and there were dozens of ways to arrive at similar results, I'm not completely put off by this one.
    Last edited by Robby; June 29th, 2021 at 09:28 AM.
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  7. #187

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Okay Daz, you wrote a long thing... but you have completely missed the point I was actually making to home in on something else entirely. And I already explained that to you, and you're still homing in on the other thing.

    Sorry, I respect the time you took to write all that, but I'm done following up on what was a one line joke with all due seriousness.

    You don't like Tama's ability, that's fine. And you felt the build up of the beast pirates was treated more seriously than I did, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong to be disappointed.

    I dunno why we're getting such different levels of expectation from this, but that's fine.


    If Tama converted the entire 40,000 army, or was taking out the top 6 guys, I'd completely agree with you it was ridiculous and overpowered and cheap.

    But she affected less than 0.013% of them, none of the big main threats, and after a year of buildup.

    Allies helping fight mooks is allies helping fight mooks and there were dozens of ways to arrive at similar results, I'm not completely put off by this one.
    TLDR Tama's ability is just a convenient way to deal with the gifters. Whether the Momotaro stuff is around or not or if we knew it since 3 years ago. It cheapens the arc, it lowers the stakes and makes a plot point that has been a focus since freaking PH obsolete. So no, it's not good writing.


  8. #188
    I like videogames TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Tama helped shift the tide of battle in a long battle with lots of shifting in momentum. She's just a piece of the puzzle in a long chain of events that are needed to bring down one of the strongest crews in the world. Same as Yasuie dying, Denjiro busting out all the captured samurai, Kinemon being an idiot, Sanji and Shinobu saving Mononosuke from execution, the Worst generation kicking Big Mom off the roof who in turn attacked Page One and Ulti, Chopper curing the Oni virus and getting the Pleasures and Waiters to defect, Usopp capturing Bao Huang, everything Yamato is doing, Law's crew saving Luffy, and these are off the top of my head and not accounting what has yet to happen in the story.

    Same as every other arc which always consists of collaboration with the locals and lots of team work and lucky coincidences to overcome impossible odds. A massive confluence of events that all tie together. Is Tama's fruit specific? A bit but no where near the most absurdly specific devil fruit and offset by the fact that it was introduced early on (which does make a huge difference, I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like setup doesn't matter, establishing things early on makes or breaks a story, it's called Chekov's gun). You don't like that one pay off a particular plot thread? Fine. But acting like it makes or breaks the arc, like Tama single handedly overcame the entire army is silly. Gifters are just mooks, above average mooks, they are far from being the core of Kaidou's power. Did you expect them to be super elite Warlord level enemies, each and every one? Okay fine, that is your prerogative if your expectations were crushed. No other enemy group has ever had opponents that posed a challenge to the crew outside of the core group of fighters so I personally didn't expect any different here. They are a piece of Kaidou's strength, not even his ace in the hole like the Numbers or the Tobbi Roppo, just a part of his power Tama helped to demolish as everyone else in the arc is doing their part to tackle the other parts of Kaidou's military power. One random civilian did not single-handedly win the war, everyone is doing their part.

  9. #189

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by TLC View Post
    Tama helped shift the tide of battle in a long battle with lots of shifting in momentum. She's just a piece of the puzzle in a long chain of events that are needed to bring down one of the strongest crews in the world. Same as Yasuie dying, Denjiro busting out all the captured samurai, Kinemon being an idiot, Sanji and Shinobu saving Mononosuke from execution, the Worst generation kicking Big Mom off the roof who in turn attacked Page One and Ulti, Chopper curing the Oni virus and getting the Pleasures and Waiters to defect, Usopp capturing Bao Huang, everything Yamato is doing, Law's crew saving Luffy, and these are off the top of my head and not accounting what has yet to happen in the story.

    Same as every other arc which always consists of collaboration with the locals and lots of team work and lucky coincidences to overcome impossible odds. A massive confluence of events that all tie together. Is Tama's fruit specific? A bit but no where near the most absurdly specific devil fruit and offset by the fact that it was introduced early on (which does make a huge difference, I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like setup doesn't matter, establishing things early on makes or breaks a story, it's called Chekov's gun). You don't like that one pay off a particular plot thread? Fine. But acting like it makes or breaks the arc, like Tama single handedly overcame the entire army is silly. Gifters are just mooks, above average mooks, they are far from being the core of Kaidou's power. Did you expect them to be super elite Warlord level enemies, each and every one? Okay fine, that is your prerogative if your expectations were crushed. No other enemy group has ever had opponents that posed a challenge to the crew outside of the core group of fighters so I personally didn't expect any different here. They are a piece of Kaidou's strength, not even his ace in the hole like the Numbers or the Tobbi Roppo, just a part of his power Tama helped to demolish as everyone else in the arc is doing their part to tackle the other parts of Kaidou's military power. One random civilian did not single-handedly win the war, everyone is doing their part.
    The point is that only Luffy's side demolishes. Kaido's side fails constantly. It's one thing if Tama turns the tides yet the samurai have lost a major number of their forces and it's another to see the samurai barely lose fighters and gain all the gifters and waiters to fight for them.

    Luffy's side is constantly winning. Kaido's side is constantly failing to do things ? Oda failed to rise up the stakes and what's annoying is that, not only did he have many chances, but he also did all the set up only for him to destroy said set ups in the next chapter. This arc would become a million times better if Kaido killed a bunch of scabbards of if Hyogoro died alongside some other Yakuza members. It would shown us that Yonko crews are not to be fucked with. Instead the Yonko crew, their general, the strongest creature in the world who just happens to have a fellow Yonko on his side, this incredible force is losing without making any impact.

    Say whatever you want about Tama, defend her and this arc all you want. Oda has killed the tension of it. The recent developments are just the icing on the cake.


  10. #190
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I think it would have worked a little different for Onigashima because it wouldn't be about recruiting allies as we go (save for Tama shenanigans anyway and Drake and Yamato turning coat). We know we have allies, we've spent most of the past decade gathering them, so it's all about when and how they arrive.

    A few posts back I made an Avengers Endgame comparison and I think it still holds up here. Onigashima is like if the final battle there had opened with the portal scene, with all the lost allies the movie had been about restoring assembling to fight. But the portal scene worked so well because it was a release of tension after the core group tried to fight Thanos alone and were being beaten down and put on the back foot. I'm wondering if there could have been a version of the Onigashima battle with more of that structure, where Oda doesn't take us into the fight with all the heroes' cards faceup.
    I think that structure and approach would only effectively work if Kaido had been the one to"erase all of Momo's allies before the raid. Only to discover as Big Mom and Kaido are beating the shit out of Luffy and are about to kill him Law does the "On your right" and teleport Kidd, the scabbards, Jimbe, Denjiro, the prisoners, the samurai, side changing pleasures, mind controlled gifters, on to Onigashima. Them Yamato pops out from under rubble with Shinobu and Momo like Ant-Man, Rocket, and War Machin (although technically speaking Yamato parallels Galore more than anything).

    I think the say Oda did it was just as effective in a different way woth Orochi having an onside man only to reveal the scabbards had an inside man for 20 years all along and they didn't know it. Granted Jimbe popping up immediately after was a little plot devicey and going too hard with the trope it still worked to set the stage for the raid.
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  11. #191
    Discovered Stowaway hideoushorrendous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B. Decent View Post
    Jack's outright refusal to go into his Hybrid Form when it would give him a clear combat advantage, especially when multiple members of his crew have done so is actively infuriating me! :D

    Like, just turn into it and crush Inuarashi already, you big stupid bastard!
    He's always standing there watching stuff, rarely illustrated fighting

    idk what's oda's problem with jack or king, queen is eating all the spotlights throughout the arc.

  12. #192

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    I think that structure and approach would only effectively work if Kaido had been the one to"erase all of Momo's allies before the raid. Only to discover as Big Mom and Kaido are beating the shit out of Luffy and are about to kill him Law does the "On your right" and teleport Kidd, the scabbards, Jimbe, Denjiro, the prisoners, the samurai, side changing pleasures, mind controlled gifters, on to Onigashima. Them Yamato pops out from under rubble with Shinobu and Momo like Ant-Man, Rocket, and War Machin (although technically speaking Yamato parallels Galore more than anything).

    I think the say Oda did it was just as effective in a different way woth Orochi having an onside man only to reveal the scabbards had an inside man for 20 years all along and they didn't know it. Granted Jimbe popping up immediately after was a little plot devicey and going too hard with the trope it still worked to set the stage for the raid.
    Now that's the kind of shameless ripping-off I want to see! They say there's no more original stories anyway! I'm looking forward to all the raid's female characters being ham-fistedly posed as a group (and the subsequent twitter shitstorm that will follow Yamato's absence or presence in the shot).

    But in all seriousness, the kind of change I'm thinking is like how you could probably hold back the arrival of Denjiro, the Minks and the samurai/yakuza fleet a little, because aside from Denjiro tying up Sasaki, they don't do much before the attack on Kaido except hide in the crowd. Imagine getting without them to the point where Kaido just flew the Scabbards to the rooftop, leaving the Strawhats outnumbered below on the Performance Floor. The Scabbards think they'll have their chance to face Kaido directly, but Jack and his little army show up and block the way, and Kin'emon realises they'll never get to Kaido at full power and they barely stood a chance going in unscathed. It's over. Then Denjiro appears, telling him not to give up. The Minks swarm over the walls, transforming as they go. Denjiro hands over a smail linked to the samurai fleet, who are landing at the dock and rushing into the dome to back up the Strawhats already.

    This setup should still let us have the great "wrong port" moment from Oda's version, if a little later, as well as not affecting the Kanjuro reveal which I agree worked really well. It doesn't change much in the big picture, but a few more moments of the enemy seeming insurmountable could go a long way.

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by TLC View Post
    Same as every other arc which always consists of collaboration with the locals and lots of team work and lucky coincidences to overcome impossible odds. A massive confluence of events that all tie together. Is Tama's fruit specific? A bit but no where near the most absurdly specific devil fruit
    Out of curiosity, what would you consider a more specific match of "DF counter to a specific problem? Or perhaps more relevantly, a case of a more convenient DF counter to a problem that you'd consider to be written well.

    Quote Originally Posted by TLC View Post
    and offset by the fact that it was introduced early on (which does make a huge difference, I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like setup doesn't matter, establishing things early on makes or breaks a story, it's called Chekov's gun). You don't like that one pay off a particular plot thread? Fine.
    Yes, Tamas ability was seeded in advance, but if what people have a problem with is the very fundamentals of said ability, why does that matter? People are bummed out now because a payoff that was possible, perhaps even expected, but not desirable (to many, if not you) came to pass - its the exact same process as if people went "I hope Oda doesn't undo this character death" leading to "I'm dissapointed Oda now undid this character death", like of course thats when the complaints are. Countering that with "why is everyone complaining, this was expected to happen ages ago" doesn't really work, because the problem people have is that...it did in fact happen. If it hadn't happened there would have been no reason to complain.
    Quote Originally Posted by TLC View Post
    They are a piece of Kaidou's strength, not even his ace in the hole like the Numbers or the Tobbi Roppo, just a part of his power Tama helped to demolish as everyone else in the arc is doing their part to tackle the other parts of Kaidou's military power. One random civilian did not single-handedly win the war, everyone is doing their part.
    Well, the difference is that neither the Tobi Toppo nor especially the numbers have been set up as a specific and relevant problem as thoroughly or as far back as the gifter army. Like, you can argue that the Numbers rank higher than the gifters on the individual power scaling chart and be right, but would you seriously argue the Numbers have been built up or framed as as big a deal as the gifters? Because thats again I suspect a huge part of why we're having this Tama discussion, the fact that the gifters aren't some half-chapter throwaway idea like the Enies Lobby dog brigade or Jurors, but that there has been a lot, A LOT of time spent on this facet of Kaidous forces, a lot of time mining them for drama or excitement, particularly since Tamas arrival at Onagashima, culminating in the rousing turnabout this chapter. But the more the story asks readers to care about a plotline - and it does ask us to care here, we've been told to care for years and years - the less satisfying an overly specific and convenient resolution to the plotline can be.
    Last edited by Daz; June 30th, 2021 at 07:58 AM.

  14. #194

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B. Decent View Post
    So, between both Drake and Who's Who confirmed to have joined just two years prior, is the Tobi Roppo a new thing with the crew? Or did they kill and replace two prior members?
    They were probably the Flying Four or Flying Five. Drake came in and eF'd up the alliteration.

    Quote Originally Posted by mandingobeard View Post
    hi yall,

    completely off topic:

    Is there a theory thread made about what BIG MOM' s crew members are (currently)up to in WANO?

    I know there were a lot of theories of blackbeard invading whole cake island(for the ponoglyph) now that big mom is busy fighting in wano with half her crew...

    but isnt it equally possible that big mom's crew are trying to get kaido' s ponoglyph while kaido and his commanders + tobi roppo are busy fighting the strawhat alliance?

    if big moms crew ever since coming to wano hardly participates in the action(besides Perospero), then there must be more to it.

    the way i see it is that if this(big mom crew being idle/passive) continues and big moms crew ends up doing nothing significant in wano, then that would take some points away from ODA' s writing skills IMO.

    on youtube no one speculates about this it seems, what do yall think. is it relevant to theorize about or not?

    peace!
    Oh I like this theory! Did Kaidou or someone say that the Road Glyph was off Onagashima? Possibly at the main land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post

    Well, the difference is that neither the Tobi Toppo nor especially the numbers have been set up as a specific and relevant problem as thoroughly or as far back as the gifter army. Like, you can argue that the Numbers rank higher than the gifters on the individual power scaling chart and be right, but would you seriously argue the Numbers have been built up or framed as as big a deal as the gifters? Because thats again I suspect a huge part of why we're having this Tama discussion, the fact that the gifters aren't some half-chapter throwaway idea like the Enies Lobby dog brigade or Jurors, but that there has been a lot, A LOT of time spent on this facet of Kaidous forces, a lot of time mining them for drama or excitement, particularly since Tamas arrival at Onagashima, culminating in the rousing turnabout this chapter. But the more the story asks readers to care about a plotline - and it does ask us to care here, we've been told to care for years and years - the less satisfying an overly specific and convenient resolution to the plotline can be.
    You are definitely right in that the Gifters have been set up as a big obstacle much more so than the Numbers or Flying Six. Though due to the history and nature of One Piece I think we all fully understood right away that if Caesar wasn't lying about there being 4 or 500 hundred of these Smile users out there in a single crew then the Sweet 3/Commander/Minister/Executive equivalents would be the "real" obstacles.

    Once we actually saw Shoulder Wolf at Zoe I just knew the Smile Users would ultimately be glorified cannon fodder for some lesser characters to deal with.

    Large armies in One Piece almost seemed like a joke in much of One Piece. I will say though that after the events of Whole Cake I took the idea of a Smile army a little more seriously. Big Mom's revenge army swarming Nami and Luffy was legit. The Straw Hats, Sun Pirates, Germa and Fire Tank's getting surrounded on all sides was legit. Numbers actually seemed to matter for once. And I like that during the raid the good guys have been commenting on being out numbered or giving slight kudos to the Gifters.

    I guess I just always looked at the promise of a massive imitation animal army as some visual spectacle to look forward to rather than one of the biggest obstacles yet aside from Kaido himself.

    As a threat I think they play a decent role by One Piece army/fodder standards. Aside from the Smile users themselves though I'm far more invested in what the discarded fruits do to the unsuspecting poor and starving of Wano. Destroying Punk Hazard and smashing up Dressrosa to keep more people from losing their God given emotions is what retroactively made me far more invested in those events and arcs.
    Folks who read One Piece... Just better people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  15. #195
    I like videogames TLC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    My point with Tama's ability not being absurdly specific was meant in terms of the fruit itself and not in terms of how it acts as a counter as I wrote in an earlier post. Sugar's fruit is so much worse in how absurdly specific it is. Not to mention characters like Law, Kuma, Kinemon or Baron Tamago off the top of my head.

    Compare to that, animal tamer fruit isn't that weird or farfetched as a concept especially when it's tied to a mythological aesthetic in a mythological setting. You think it deflates a super potential exciting plot detail? Fine, but you cannot claim it's an asspull or wasn't set up properly.

    Ultimately peoples' disappointment stems from their overexpectations for the Gifters which I do not understand why. Like I'm sorry, where is this big hype for the gifters coming from? Because they've been a thing since Punk Hazard and there was that one chapter Law talked about them? Is that it? I personally always had the impression that the danger of their group was in the fact that they can be mass produced and not in the individual quality themselves. This impression was further solidified by whatw e saw in Zou with Sheepshead and the other Gifters. Weird, clearly defective zoans. Not to say that they can't be a massive threat. An army of defective zoans is still more of a threat than an army of normal people. But, the fact that they were a product of a relatively new and experimental process always made them seem more like a gimmick to me, something Kaidou was dabbling in to bolster his forces along with the experimental giants (the Numbers). Like Moria's zombies. Potentially dangerous but more in their durability and numbers and given enough time, they could amass to an overwhelming force. I never had the impression that Kaidou had 500 Rob Luccis under his wing. Just above average Mooks. And yes they can be a threat and what Tama did, did matter in the story but I personally felt that the resolution they got fit the importance they had been given in the story and like I said, I don't understand the overblowing of their significance. They were a new, experimental thing Kaidou tried to get more power and it bit him in the ass. If you're disappointed, that's a shame, I'm personally fine with it.

  16. #196
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    After thinking of the Zou gifters in particular, I came to a realization that rather than "Gifters were written with Tama in mind", I think its the exact other way around.

    First, you have the concept introduced in Punk Hazard where it is framed as significant and dramatic by Caesar, and a worthwhile and target in Kaidous operation by Law. In Dressrosa it is important enough to Kaidou to make the prospect of SMILES being tarrgeted makes Doflamingo sweat. The idea that it is just some hobby-project of Kaidous without too much significance simply isn't supported by how much importance Law assigns it, how much pressure it puts on Doflamingo.

    When we see the gifters at zou, they behave entirely different than on wano. We see the gifters as people with strange DF-like markings on their regular human bodies, which they can then at will partially transform in ways beyond normal zoan abilities- and this is highlighted as bizarre, noteworthy, dangerous.

    But then, when we reach Wano proper, the arc where the gifters will actually have to be dealt with, suddenly all the gifters are in half-animal mode all the time, and first thing that happens is that someone with an ability to convert animals to friends show up. It is explicitly stated that it doesn't work on the beast pirate officers, who are all proper zoans (following the theme set by Jack at zou), who are capable of switching between human and animal form at will. An SBS question points out the variation in the depiction of gifters from Zou to Wano, Oda says "well, its unpredictable, can work in different ways", but suddenly the gifters capable of also changing form at will are nowhere to be found. No more Sheepsheads.


    Basically, the moment it was time to have the payoff to the long gestating SMILE plotline, there was a slight overhaul of the Gifter concept, which happened to coincide perfectly with the arrival of an ability that could perfectly counter the gifters, specifically in their updated form.

  17. #197
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    An SBS question points out the variation in the depiction of gifters from Zou to Wano, Oda says "well, its unpredictable, can work in different ways", but suddenly the gifters capable of also changing form at will are nowhere to be found. No more Sheepsheads.
    There's at least one more of them. Sarahebi is capable of elongating her neck at will and was introduced in Wano. I think Oda did change his mind, but I don't care because so many of the gifters are hilarious and I actually buy them as a pretty powerful force, all things considered. If Kaido had all of the ones we've seen and made it to Marineford, they would have done a lot of damage. Comparing the large swathes of them we've seen with the hordes of nameless pirates that fought for Whitebeard and under his allied captains and I think they'd have a pretty good shot.
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  18. #198

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Not dennying that there are differences betwen smilers on Zou and on Wano but if you squint your eyes you can chalk it up to: Oda need a couple of cool looking smilers on Zou for those scenes to work but when we got to Wano he was free to do what he wanted.
    But I would've liked if more Smilers transformed, and into the silly forms they have. Imagine how funny it would be if Hamlet showed up, bragged about his power and then grew a giraffe out of his ass.

    But the SMILES plot was resolved bit by bit every arc since it was introduced, the plan was always to take those out of the way.
    It was introduced in Punk Hazard where our heroes captured Caeser, the cientist helping out creating the fruits.
    Then in Dressrosa they destroyed the factory, so that 1- the production of new fruits stopped, 2-Kaidou would get mad at Doffy.
    So when we get to Wano, there are no more fake fruits to be eaten and that army can't grow, now all there is to do is to convert them.
    Kaidou's Smiler army was being dismatled ever since we found out about it.

    And the first time they are mentioned they do look cool on panel but it's still an army of cool looking fodder, at most it would end like the hundreds guards of Ennies Lobby. They're like Big Mom's unimportant kids or her chess pieces army.
    No fake fruit user in the series would ever compare to an actual fruit user or competent fighter, that's why we have the Calamities and the Tobbi Roppo, the real adversaries. The Smilers could be a more serious take but overall they're doing what I expected of them, they were villains of the week early in the arc, they got smacked in the head, they posted some obstacles during the raid, they got smacked some more, now they're friendly and will eventually join the wrapping up feast.

    Still a shame that we couldn't see more of Zoro vs the Squadron of Bladed Gifters and similar match-ups.
    Yeah, they're fodder but that's still a good opportunity to see some smaller cool attacks and such.

  19. #199

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    Big Mom had the chess pieces, which felt pretty useless. And then she had her kids, each a powerhouse in their own. Kaidou has a cree composed of other crews. Apart from King, Queen and Jack his crew doesn't seem to be a unity or even work together well. Big Mom at least had the enraged army capture Luffy and Nami to show her strenght

  20. #200

    Default Re: Chapter 1,017: The Order

    I dunno, I feel like the threat posed by the gifters has been well-established. We've seen even the likes of Zoro and Yamato struggle a bit with them, and they're strong enough to fight Kaido, and it's reinforced this chapter. It's true that their threat comes more from their numbers than their individual powers, but that's how it was established all the way back at Zou, so it makes sense for the way to deal with them to be based on numbers.

    The implication here is that the gifters are big enough of a deal that the alliance would have probably been defeated without Tama's intervention, which is why we've spent so much time with her and this gets so much focus now. It's a major turning of the tides moment and major feat for Tama herself.


    Although there has been a lot of tell,don't show in Onigashima so far with the danger, tbh. This applies now when we found out the gifters are a problem for Jinbe, Franky, Inu, etc just before Tama turns things around. But also in things like when we moved away from the rooftop fight and when we went back you had Kid and Law being all like ''Holy shit these guys are insane, you can't even call them human, this is worse than being in hell, just surviving this long is a miracle, we're struggling real hard I swear'' but then both before and after that they seem to be doing just fine.
    Last edited by Sengokusgoat; July 4th, 2021 at 03:09 AM.

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