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Thread: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

  1. #81

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by blindjustice View Post
    Yeah makes sense. Luffy was able to damage the tree and break the cuffs without using CoC. He also hurt Kaido making him bleed without using CoC. But kaido protected himself with CoC and CoA so the attacks were shallow. Adding CoC on top of the CoA makes the attacks more potent. This is the best explanation I am going ahead with for now.
    The anime showed it as a yellow-orange aura with a red layering. Makes me wonder if they’ll consistently show it like that when the anime gets around to showing Luffy fighting Kaido on the roof.


  2. #82

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    Yes that part was a big contentious in the spoiler thread too. The original sin that makes conqueror haki birth given only a chose few get, makes this power up a bit bitter. if it was a haki that is obtained thanks to your ambition and struggle toward the top, it would make everything more simple and acceptable. Even Zoro awaking it this late in the game would make more sense.
    The point with CoC being put into a position to provide additional utility is that Oda was never gonna be able to make everyone happy. Someone will always be complaining.
    If we assume that it is indeed a "chosen haki" (even though none of the people who referred to it as such had it themselves as far as I remember, the actual users framed it a bit differently, more along the lines you mentioned about it being ambition/strength of spirit in my opinion), is "I can do mental fodder control" worthy of being put in the "chosen" category when everyone at that level could manually take care of large fodder fields in very little time? Either it's mostly worthless or it's "gatekeeping", you'll find people who are adamant about stating how it's bad for one reason or another.
    Besides, high-tier CoC has been shown to have a physical effect all the way back in chapter 434, so it having advanced applications was theorized ever since then.
    Spoiler:


    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    And i agree that this haki being just a better version of the armament haki is really not satisfying. Finally, it is shown to us the fighting application of this kind of haki. Honestly, it is a bit late and it should have been explained or hinted long ago.
    Mihawk and Rayleigh were really bad teachers in the end :-)
    I don't agree with the notion that it's "just a better version". We don't know nearly enough about it yet to make such a claim. It could well be the case that it is different enough, one hypothesis I have is that advanced CoC doesn't make your punches "harder" but rather bypasses CoA defense to a degree or attacks the user's "spirit"/"life energy" directly in a sense. Most importantly, I don't remember there being any indication that CoC in whatever form would be capable of forcing a DF user into taking a hit with their "normal" body. So far we've only seen a glimpse of this technique and while certain assumptions are absolutely reasonable I don't think they are more than that at this stage.

    As for Rayleigh and Mihawk being bad teachers: Big disagree. First of all, we have no indication that Mihawk even has CoC, much less had any indication that Zoro has it. As for Rayleigh, he has explicitly stated that CoC can not be trained specifically but rather has to be strengthened over time with personal growth. And to finish it off, neither Rayleigh nor Mihawk have shown any capability of using this new application of CoC. The only possible jab at Rayleigh is not teaching Luffy internal destruction with CoA, but then again... he just started his haki training. That was probably a bit too advanced for someone just getting the basics out of the way.

  3. #83
    Discovered Stowaway ArseneWenger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Ok. Then the question arises:

    Why does Garp not have CoC then?
    Whichever side wins becomes the Justice.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Chosen haki in itself is fine. It's just that it comes on the tail end of a slippery slope. Guy sets out to be free, stumbles assbackwards in to plot point about saving the world, which is fine if it happens as a by-product of Luffy living his life. But then a bunch of invisible hands of fate stuff gets stacked on. Okay he's from a lost famous clan that people fear, thats fine it is shounen after all. Oh so his hat that we thought was a symbol of his and Shanks promise is actually a prophecy road mark and him betting on Luffy is potentially about a prophecy. Even more oh the OP is actually only fully useable by a chosen saviour who is born at a fated time under very specific requirements. And to beat the people blocking OP you need to have a haki ability that only those who were born to rule can have. It just gets a little bit much at times, but it is what it is and at this point you can only roll with the fact that Luffy is just surfing a wave of fate to end station. I would have prefered the inherited will thing to be a little less literal but c'est la vie

  5. #85

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Weird way to ignore one of the biggest themes in the series and pretend that destiny has never been a part of it but ok, i guess.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC

    Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it...? Things like this makes zero sense
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  7. #87

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    Yes that part was a big contentious in the spoiler thread too. The original sin that makes conqueror haki birth given only a chose few get, makes this power up a bit bitter. if it was a haki that is obtained thanks to your ambition and struggle toward the top, it would make everything more simple and acceptable. Even Zoro awaking it this late in the game would make more sense.

    And i agree that this haki being just a better version of the armament haki is really not satisfying. Finally, it is shown to us the fighting application of this kind of haki. Honestly, it is a bit late and it should have been explained or hinted long ago.
    Mihawk and Rayleigh were really bad teachers in the end :-)
    I choose to headcanon the "one in a million" thing to "one in a million people will ever aim high enough with enough conviction to awaken it, even though technically everyone has the potential," which makes it go down a whole lot easier, even if there's not really a canon basis for that. (I'd love for a native Japanese reader to confirm if it's a viable interpretation of the original explanation though).

    Greg was saying on Twitter that he'd expected CoC to have this kind of application for a while, apparently based mostly on the sound effects used for previous CoC clashes. I'm really not seeing it though, I'd agree that it needed more foreshadowing.

    Maybe Ray and Mihawk didn't want their students getting distracted trying to do something so far above their level at the time. I don't know, I'm trying to give Oda the benefit of the doubt here because he so rarely lets me down.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Ray said he wanted to teqch Luffy only the basics and that Luffy would need to do the rest himself (why Ray left the island before 2y mark). Tho that does clash somewhat with him telling Luffy of future sight. Might be that just happened to come up during one of their regular conversations whereas this didnt. As for Mihawk, well I guess its possible both of them had an implicit understanding that they wouldnt reveal all their tricks to each other or similary to Ray and Luffy they focused more on good foundation to improve later than specific applications that one may or may not learn.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-san View Post
    Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC

    Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it...? Things like this makes zero sense
    I guess even the Pirate King and his crew has limits as to what they do and don’t know, because Luffy was talking about Conqueror’s coating as if he was surprised and never heard about it before he figured it out for himself. Either he didn’t know the full implications, or Rayleigh purposefully withheld it so as to keep it at the basics, though even that starts seeming sketchy.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by fraggynator View Post
    The point with CoC being put into a position to provide additional utility is that Oda was never gonna be able to make everyone happy. Someone will always be complaining.
    If we assume that it is indeed a "chosen haki" (even though none of the people who referred to it as such had it themselves as far as I remember, the actual users framed it a bit differently, more along the lines you mentioned about it being ambition/strength of spirit in my opinion), is "I can do mental fodder control" worthy of being put in the "chosen" category when everyone at that level could manually take care of large fodder fields in very little time? Either it's mostly worthless or it's "gatekeeping", you'll find people who are adamant about stating how it's bad for one reason or another.
    Besides, high-tier CoC has been shown to have a physical effect all the way back in chapter 434, so it having advanced applications was theorized ever since then.
    Well you have decided to ignore all those times when a character says that it is a "chosen haki" because it "does not prove anything" to make your headcannon instead. It will be hard to discuss based on that. Maybe one day Oda will retcon how Conqueror haki is obtained. Until then, I will believe what he has made his characters said.

    I don't agree with the notion that it's "just a better version". We don't know nearly enough about it yet to make such a claim. It could well be the case that it is different enough, one hypothesis I have is that advanced CoC doesn't make your punches "harder" but rather bypasses CoA defense to a degree or attacks the user's "spirit"/"life energy" directly in a sense. Most importantly, I don't remember there being any indication that CoC in whatever form would be capable of forcing a DF user into taking a hit with their "normal" body. So far we've only seen a glimpse of this technique and while certain assumptions are absolutely reasonable I don't think they are more than that at this stage.
    Yes it is a bit early but I'm not sure we will have more explanation anytime soon. So it will always be speculation based on the vague hints Oda provides when it comes to haki

    As for Rayleigh and Mihawk being bad teachers: Big disagree. First of all, we have no indication that Mihawk even has CoC, much less had any indication that Zoro has it. As for Rayleigh, he has explicitly stated that CoC can not be trained specifically but rather has to be strengthened over time with personal growth. And to finish it off, neither Rayleigh nor Mihawk have shown any capability of using this new application of CoC. The only possible jab at Rayleigh is not teaching Luffy internal destruction with CoA, but then again... he just started his haki training. That was probably a bit too advanced for someone just getting the basics out of the way.
    The destructive aspect of haki was the first thing Rayleigh showed to Luffy (Luffy said it himself in chapter 937). One could imagine that he teaches it but apparently not, go figure.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Ryleigh said that it can't get stronger directly. The situation has multiple elements. Luffy wants to save his friends in an urgent matter and Kaido (a CoC user) is beating him up. From this, I get that Rayleigh could have fought Luffy over and over again, but it would be a waste of time.

    Why? There is no real urgency to conjure up. Zoro is down, Law just got washed, Scabbards and Wano are at risk, etc. You can't produce that for training purposes unless you're Oda. The first time we get a glimpse of CoC, Shanks is protecting Luffy.

    597
    Spoiler:




  12. #92
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-san View Post
    Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC

    Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it...? Things like this makes zero sense
    Who knows, maybe it's something everyone needs to discover for themselves. You know, since it's closely tied to personality and emotions, maybe knowing about it and expecting it would just hamper the development.

    Anyway, CoC having more applications has been expected. I know I never forgot about Shanks' CoC causing cracks on Moby Dick.

    And honestly, I'm not that bothered by Luffy just getting up after being clubbed down for the second time. After all, his protection was a little stronger this time, having trained his Haki more. Could have been done without blank eyes, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Ace had Conqueror's haki when he was 10, so I don't know how that clashed with it being innate or not.


    But let's not forget that Haki literally means 'ambition'. And the whole point of Conqueror's haki is having the disposition to stand above all others.

    So maybe it's not that some people are born with CoC and that's why the reach to the top, but only one in a million has the strength of spirit and willpower to reach to the top and that's why they have CoC. But then again, wouldn't that mean said ambition is innate, which basically means the same thing?
    Last edited by Sengokusgoat; April 12th, 2021 at 02:44 AM.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    For fun, let's look at the black lightning effect. It was first connected to CoC haki back in Dressrosa, with that association being strongly reinforced this week. But there's a few interesting inconsistencies s. Firstly, it doesn't show up before the timeskip, even when it would make sense for it to.





    Armament being invisible before our POV characters learn about it I get, but the reactions of the colosseum guests suggests that the lightning is visible even to a layperson, so I think this is one aspect of haki that just wasn't cemented until at least after the timeskip.


    But even as recently as Onigashima, Oda's also used the effect for characters fairly unlikely to have the haki. Individuals and clashes that produced black lightning effects have inlcuded Elizabello, Sabo and Burgess, Sai and Lao G, Issho, Sanji and Oven, Franky and Suke, Sanji and PageOne, Yamato and Ulti; and Usopp and Ulti.





    There was even some presumably natural black lightning in the stormclouds in the background of the Kaido fight.





    Most of these get another colour's highlight next to the black in the digital colour manga, usually red or purple but there's also been pink, blue and just leaving it back and white. I don't think there's any real significance in how the colour choices.


    I also think the first ever example of the lightning effect might be when Luffy hits Caesar here...





    But some wires got crossed making the colour version and they mistook it for long streams of blood.





    But it could probably go either way in the end.


    And even more interestingly, for part of the Luffy/Chinjao clash that introduced the idea of lightning as a CoC signifier, it's just drawn as regular, outlines only lightning, which has the potential to make things even more complicated if we wanted to look for electric effects on non-electric attacks as a haki signpost.




    The final interesting note about Oda's use of lightning effects and their relationship with haki is the バリバリ sound effects in the Luffy/Chinjao panel. It doesn't appear every time there's CoC users and/or lightning effects, but they're there when Luffy clashes with Doflmingo, when he and Katakuri throw their CoC at each other and finally in the panel of the lightning trailing off his fist in this chapter, i.e. the big moments specifically stated to be clashes of CoC haki.

    But in the same way the lightning isn't exclusively a haki effect, you can also get バリバリ and similar sounds out of crackling electricity, and it's definitely been used in that capacity. One really ambiguous moment would be Luffy and Sanji attacking Big Mom together as she throws Zeus at them. You have two CoC users clashing, but also a source of regular electricity blazing away (and no black lightning). Anyone's guess what kinds of haki is in play there.




    I think the bottom line here, if there is any, is that there's no one consistent set of effects for any kind of haki and Oda just does what feels right to him at the time. I think it would have been cool if looking back over past uses of black lightning and familiar sound effects could have hinted at possible conquerors-to-be, but it's all too wildly inconsistent to get any crack theories off the ground.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    According to Greg, there's a sound effect cue for a Conqueror-clad attack. バリッ (Bzzt).


  16. #96

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by All Fiction View Post
    According to Greg, there's a sound effect cue for a Conqueror-clad attack. バリッ (Bzzt).
    I did see that, and wrote about it toward the end of my post. I don't see how it's materially different from the bzzt-type effects written with the same characters for things like the Vinsmokes' electric attacks, Zeus's thunderbolts, Carrot's electro and Nami's lightning.

    But I'm open to (and would welcome) being corrected on that point because I'm just visually matching symbols, not really reading them in the traditional sense. It wouldn't shock me there's some nuance I'm missing, or a distinction in the haki version easily overlooked by the untrained eye.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    As far as memory serves, Haki as a concept (If you exclude Mantra from Skypea) came around only at Amazon Lily.

    That's why before that, every demonstration of Haki was more a hint of what would appear in the future of the series, hence why the absent of black lightning and turning skin and blades dark.

    That's just my opinion tho.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by ArseneWenger View Post
    Ok. Then the question arises:

    Why does Garp not have CoC then?
    Who said he doesn't have it?

  18. #98

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-san View Post
    Can someone explain how come Rayleigh right hand of the Pirate king, did not teach Luffy about the theoretical applications of CoC

    Just cause of plot and shounen? Or do you think there was actually a reason behind it...? Things like this makes zero sense
    1) He doesn’t know or

    2) it’s something Oda just invented. Sometime back Oda did say he doesn’t know how to make Luffy defeat Kaido. He doesn’t want it to be about Luffy punching harder. So, I guess Oda just invented this to make Kaido fall sensible.
    IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU....

  19. #99

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    I'm thinking since Big Mom is doing something mysterious and Kaido might have an awakened form or something up his sleeve, that we might still get an 'alright, playtime is over' moment with the both of them. That's why Oda is getting Zoro out of there, because he doesn't want to have him lose.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King

    I don’t get why everyone is so confused about Haki.

    All that Luffy did was apply the concept of advanced CoA that Hyogoro taught him on CoC.
    Those are two different techniques with the same concept.

    The moment he was hit by Kaido he understood that he can use it that way.

    But it seems to be more fun to come up with the weirdest ideas that ignore some basic informations.

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

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