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Thread: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

  1. #21

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Kanjuro claiming I didnt die but I might die eventually feels so hard to buy.. like for real..

    Which is a shame cause I really wish his fruit landed on someone else.

  2. #22
    Discovered Stowaway Riddler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    I'm personally very happy to see both Kanjuro and Orochi still alive and back in the story. They are both very fun villains and it didn't feel like their part in the story had come to a proper, satisfying ending. I know Oda has a bad habit of not letting people stay dead, but this feels different from cases like Pell and Pagaya, because in those cases, the "dead" characters storyline was effectively over and the only reason Oda brought them back was to have a happy ending. This is different because when Orochi was beheaded by Kaido or Kanjuro was defeated offscreen, those weren't exactly satisfying, climactic endings to their storylines. And I assume that was done completely on purpose because Oda knew he would get back to them later.

    I mean, Kanjuro deserves an on-screen fight and defeat, best case scenario against Kinemon. And Orochi has been built up as a truly hateable villain and we've barely seen anything of his Devil fruit powers. Kaido beheading him was a nice shock twist, but it definitely was not a satisfying ending for this character.

    So in short, Pell and Pagaya being revealed as still was alive wasn't necessitated by the plot, in fact it undermined the storytelling at hand. Kanjuro and Orochi being revealed as still alive, on the other hand, is necessary to create a satisfying solution to several (character) storylines in this saga.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Since a consensus seems to exist that Kinemon taking down Kanjuro is a good outcome, could someone explain what makes that good? Is it that you get a fight? Is a second squeeze of we killed our friend juice going to taste better because Kinemon and him were closer? I don't get how it isn't a rehash, or rather how doing the same thing again but more drawn out will yield superior results. Or is the idea that he'll have a death bed repentance and all will be forgiven? Like what would ya'll say is the sought after end game for you?

  4. #24

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Since a consensus seems to exist that Kinemon taking down Kanjuro is a good outcome, could someone explain what makes that good? Is it that you get a fight? Is a second squeeze of we killed our friend juice going to taste better because Kinemon and him were closer? I don't get how it isn't a rehash, or rather how doing the same thing again but more drawn out will yield superior results. Or is the idea that he'll have a death bed repentance and all will be forgiven? Like what would ya'll say is the sought after end game for you?
    In my opinion. Kanjuro having a confrontation with Kinemon will be cathartic. Remember, next to momonosuke, we have spent years with Kanjuro as a pseudo member of the crew.

    If it was any other member of the samurai's then it would not have mattered that much. But Oda chose to include Kanjuro early on, so as audience members, we grew attached to him one way or another.

    To just have him defeated offscreen was incredibly underwhelming.

    What was the point of including him early on then? He could just have easily been another Kikunoji.

    Kanjuro vs Kinemon would be similar to Luffy vs Ussop imo.
    HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
    ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

  5. #25
    Discovered Stowaway Riddler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood
    Since a consensus seems to exist that Kinemon taking down Kanjuro is a good outcome, could someone explain what makes that good? Is it that you get a fight? Is a second squeeze of we killed our friend juice going to taste better because Kinemon and him were closer? I don't get how it isn't a rehash, or rather how doing the same thing again but more drawn out will yield superior results. Or is the idea that he'll have a death bed repentance and all will be forgiven? Like what would ya'll say is the sought after end game for you?
    Hmm, I guess for me, it's both because I think Kanjuro's devil fruit powers are cool and I want to see more of them and also because I like both Kanjuro and Kinemon's characters and Kinemon directly confronting him and the two facing off against each other just seems ripe with dramatic potential. When the Scabbards silently looked at Kanjuro's defeated body, it was a nicely somber moment, but the fact that his actual defeat was offscreened and that Kinemon wasn't there when it happened and just arrived on the scene afterward took away some of the emotional effect it could have had. I guess I just didn't find the Scabbards last encounter with Kanjuro as emotionally satisfying as you did. I wanted to see more of the character and more of the Scabbards confrontation with him.

    As for why Kinemon should ideally be the Scabbard to fight him, yes, it's because they were closer plus Kinemon is probably the Scabbard the audience cares about the most and if any Scabbard were to get a 1 vs. 1 fight in this arc, it should be him.

    Personally, I don't want him to have a death bed repentance and for all to be forgiven. Kanjuro has been responsible for a lot of suffering and there hasn't been any indication that he feels remorseful at all.
    Last edited by Riddler; March 28th, 2021 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji



    For me, the most interesting part of this week’s chapter is the conversation between Yamato and Momo. Specifically, the part where he seems to have some degree of awareness of what’s happening to Luffy on the roof of Onigashima. It seems there are a few potential implications here. We learned one chapter prior that Momo’s artificial Devil Fruit was made by Vegapunk using Kaido’s genetic information while Kaido was in captivity.

    Perhaps this implies that Momo’s artificial Fruit is innately connected to Kaido’s if the foreshadowing on Enies Lobby turns out to be real and there is some living / soul component to Devil Fruit or some living entity residing within Devil Fruit.
    We also know that there is only one of each Devil Fruit and perhaps there’s a deeper reason for that of which we are yet unaware. Maybe the fact that Vegapunk made this fruit from Kaido’s means they are inherently connected. Maybe there is some type of unbreakable bond connecting the artificial fruit to the original from which it was derived. In this case, the artificial fruit would not be distinctly its own thing.


    I have said in the past that I believe there is some good luck or good fortunate component responsible for Kaido’s long survival. He’s not unbeatable, but he is unkillable, and as an Eastern style dragon, I think there’s a good fortune factor at play here. Momo, possessing not just a similar fruit, but the same fruit, could reinforce the notion that Momo is the key to ending Kaido’s winning streak.


    Of course, this is not the only thing this scene could be implying. Momo could simply have some advanced observation haki or this could be hinting toward a power belonging exclusively to his artificial fruit, disconnected from Kaido entirely. It’s just interesting to consider the possibilities here.
    Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

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  7. #27
    Discovered Stowaway astagadragon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Man, I'm glad Oda forego the easy way by re-inserting Oden in the story to defeat Kaido. Because if that happened I'm more than ready to drop OP (again) until Wano finishes...

    On the other hand, Kanjuro deserves an on-screen death (although knowing OP it won't happen lol) after all the horrific things he did (destroying Zou with his leaked info, anyone?)... Orochi on the other hand, he needs to sabotage Kaido even more lol. I love this guy.

    Oh yeah, did Zeus sprout a rinnegan on the last page? Because Luffy and co. are screwed big time lmao
    "The rain has ceased, and we have been graced by another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it." - Elidibus

  8. #28

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    I didn't think there was any chance of it actually being Oden, it was blatantly against the themes of One Piece as a whole, and the arc itself. I don't expect Oda to fail that hard in a single scene, even when I know he isn't perfect. So yeah it was obviously going to be some kind of fake.

    There were a bunch of interesting ways this fake Oden thing could be used though, And Oda kind of used the least interesting one. Yeah, we all guessed Kanjuro.

    But I did enjoy the whole sequence with Ashura Doji, even if there's like a 90% chance he still lives.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    A bit of an underwhelming chapter but i'm super relieved Kanjuro and Orochi are alive. My biggest disappointment with the arc so far had been their really unimpressive and wasteful deaths.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Heh, knew it'd be Kanjuro, made the most sense.

    This chapter was a good one solely for fixing the only real issues I had with Onigashima so far, which is how Kanjuro and Orochi were dealt with. Especially the former. While on some level Orochi suddenly dying like that was admittedly shocking, there was just no getting around Kanjuro's "death" being lame as hell. We just got the traitor reveal, so for him to go out that quickly, and off-screen at that, no thanks. So yea, very glad they're both back. Just like how they both left the story at the same time, makes sense they'd return at the same time as well.

    As for Ashura Doji, though it's humorous to bring up the subject of death in the same chapter the Kurozumis came back, I actually could see Ashura dying. Not now, but like, after the war is over. Like he's just barely hanging in there, maybe gets some last words in, and then passes.

    Kaido's hybrid is alright too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon D. Luffy View Post
    I didn't think there was any chance of it actually being Oden, it was blatantly against the themes of One Piece as a whole, and the arc itself. I don't expect Oda to fail that hard in a single scene, even when I know he isn't perfect. So yeah it was obviously going to be some kind of fake.

    There were a bunch of interesting ways this fake Oden thing could be used though, And Oda kind of used the least interesting one. Yeah, we all guessed Kanjuro.

    But I did enjoy the whole sequence with Ashura Doji, even if there's like a 90% chance he still lives.
    Eh, Kanjuro might've been the obvious answer, but it's still better than the more interesting theories. Ignoring the "It's really Oden" theories for obvious reasons, the only thing we'd have left is what, someone on the alliance's side posing as him? Regardless of their motive, it wouldn't be nearly as effective as Kanjuro, an antagonist, doing it to fuck with the Scabbards' heads.

    I guess some wondered if it could somehow be Catarina Devon, but that wouldn't have made any sense.

  11. #31
    Partly Sunny Syphin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    From the moment Kanjuro and Orochi were presented as having been "killed", it was obvious their deaths were only a misdirect to remove their presence from the focus of the story so that when they do reappear, a dramatic reveal could be possible. Death in One Piece for present time named characters is handled very subjectively by Oda. No matter how dead someone may appear in the story when their death scene is initially presented, if there is any ambiguity in their deaths, it is almost certain that they are still alive (looks at Vergo and Monet). No matter how many grave markers or hats over the head or other characters believing a certain character is dead there are, a present time named character is only dead when Oda confirms it 100%. The two conditions that are seemingly required before significant present time named characters can die are moving the plot forward substantially with their deaths and having another character(s) in the story ready to carry on their will. Neither Kanjuro or Orochi had any of that. Their reappearances more than a surprise were an expectant inevitability.

    Ashura Doji also isn't dead. His sacrifice was cool but he is still alive.

    I find it hilarious that Oda keep off-screening the Mink battles. The Mink Sulong battle against the Beast Pirates and Jack. Inuarashi and Nekomamushi's battle against Jack when they were in Sulong form. Carrot and Wanda's battle against Perospero. The fight the Mink forces had against Jack to keep him from reaching their Kings. All have been off-screened. There is a good chance the Inuarashi VS Jack battle will also be off-screened until Sanji arrives at the Treasure Repository. It is almost as if Oda-sensei has determined the Mink story and characters aren't as important as the other elements focused on during this arc. In order to keep the events flowing forward, it appears Oda has decided to reduce the focus given to the Minks.

    Sanji is aware the Samurai are in danger and may have decided to go to the Treasure Repository. There he could find a collapsed Inuarashi in front of Jack setting up the real battle between Sanji VS Jack. The other choice Sanji had was going after Momonosuke but Yamato and Co. have already moved away from the Sealed Storeroom and I doubt Sanji would be aware of their current whereabouts at present. It seems likely that Sanji will instead appear in the Treasure Repository where Inuarashi and Jack currently are. Or Sanji could find himself where Hiyori is.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Man, I can't wait for the potential page where Luffy stands atop Momonosuke's giant dragon head opposing Kaidou.


  13. #33

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Is Momonosuke seeing things through the eyes of the giant elephant-island of Zou, which is hiding in the mist, following Onigashima around?

  14. #34

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    I'm glad the Oden thing got wrapped up right away. Still felt like it was drawn out too long, purely by virtue of coinciding with a break, but I think the answer was about as good as could have been hoped for. Having Hyori heal the Scabbards first as a red herring was actually a pretty smart move in hindsight, making everyone believe the fake Oden had to be in cahoots with her. I had my money on Onimaru mainly based on that, but I was actually starting to enjoy the potential of it being a ghost/spirits thing by the end. But instead we get the return of Kanjuro in what has to be the cruelest possible way for the Scabbards. Hopefully he gets a more fulfilling end this time. And where did Hyori go after playing medic?

    While brave and shocking, I definitely don't believe Ashura was killed in his sacrifice. He'll probably find the strength to stand up for one more attack, probably to help with the final Orochi-head-severing. There was a time I might have believed some or all of the Scabbards could potentially meet bittersweet ends during the battle, but that ship sailed when they escaped the roof with their lives. Maybe we'll see another limb go before it's all over, but that's as much as I'm expecting.

    Orochi's back too, shocking no one. If his plan works and the whole interior of Onigashima goes up in flames, how sick is the island going to look flying through the air with fire coming out of its eyes and mouth? I assume it's going to take a group Scabbard effort to fell him, with one samurai taking out each head. Are they all going to get a chapter to their name before it happens though? Between them and the Strawhats, and supporting cast members like Hyo and Tama (kinda) also getting name chapters, maybe this battle has more juice left in it than I gave it credit for.

    Oda once again hints at Momo getting a Kaido-size transformation. I feel like he can have a role to play in the battle without such a huge and sudden boost, but we'll see how it's handled when we get there.

    Kaido's hybrid form is definitely a bit of a letdown. I don't think that's totally on the design of it - it's the standard and expected arms, legs, tail and cowling model used for most hybrids already - but the presentation. Look at him; he's just kinda standing there awkwardly. I can understand flat posing on regular Kaido, with his brick shithouse body and tree trunk arms. That version can only be so flexible before it starts to get uncanny. But the hybrid model is thinner in the limbs, giving them a greater range of movement. It would have been so much easier to draw him coiled to strike, or brandishing his weapon, or visibly reveling in the thrill of battle, but Oda's just left him with the most neutral body language possible. Maybe it wouldn't stand out so much if he wasn't right next to Big Mom, who's looking a hell of a lot more like you expect a One Piece villain to. Her manic energy and raised weapons are a stark point of contrast to the dull lizard man. The anime doesn't have to touch her for you to see the flames dancing in her hair and the lighting strobing around her fist. It's all drawn so energetically that your mind fills that stuff in on its own. Now that's a villain with some character!

    Kaido has been a weird mixed bag of a character/villain for the Wano arc. Only a few weeks ago I was praising the battles against his dragon form as some of the most artistically impressive action in the series to date, but now I'm complaining he's underwhelming. I could tell you a lot of his personality traits - he's a messy, emotional drunk, he's suicidal and wants a glorious death, even if he has to start a war to get it but despite this and being borderline invincible he shows clear trauma over being seriously wounded in the past, he beats and imprisons his child but is seemingly willing to respect it when that child decides they want to be a son instead of a daughter - but he rarely feels like he actually has a personality when he's onscreen. On paper, the contradictions in his feelings about battle and death and treatment of Yamato should make for a compelling character, but in practice he ends up this grim, stony-faced monolith. Why introduce fun drunk Kaido if the first hit of every battle "sobers him up" and prevents him from interacting with anyone in that state?

    At least he's connected to enough interesting lore for a possible flashback to be a Wano highlight regardless of how he does in the present.

    Anyway, decent chapter even if it feels odd to suddenly set up more stuff right when it felt like we might start building toward conclusions instead. It's a shame to have a Kaido reveal fall short of expectations after spending eight years building up this battle, but these things stand out mainly because Oda usually does them so well. We seemingly have a decent chunk of Onigashima left to go, so there's plenty of time to put the new form to good use or even reveal another, more visually interesting one.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Oda once again hints at Momo getting a Kaido-size transformation. I feel like he can have a role to play in the battle without such a huge and sudden boost, but we'll see how it's handled when we get there.
    The way I see it, when Kaido eats dirt at last Momo will be the one and only person in the entire country who has any chance of landing the island safely. (seeing how they share draconic powers) (Fujitora might have been able to help if he was there, but I digress. Point is, even in the New World there aren't many who can steer a whole island across the sky without thoroughly destroying it in the process). Which may help tremendously in both redeeming the Kozuki clan in the eyes of Wano citizens and establishing himself as someone worthy of their respect.

    Kaido's hybrid form is definitely a bit of a letdown. I don't think that's totally on the design of it - it's the standard and expected arms, legs, tail and cowling model used for most hybrids already - but the presentation. Look at him; he's just kinda standing there awkwardly. I can understand flat posing on regular Kaido, with his brick shithouse body and tree trunk arms. That version can only be so flexible before it starts to get uncanny. But the hybrid model is thinner in the limbs, giving them a greater range of movement. It would have been so much easier to draw him coiled to strike, or brandishing his weapon, or visibly reveling in the thrill of battle, but Oda's just left him with the most neutral body language possible. Maybe it wouldn't stand out so much if he wasn't right next to Big Mom, who's looking a hell of a lot more like you expect a One Piece villain to. Her manic energy and raised weapons are a stark point of contrast to the dull lizard man. The anime doesn't have to touch her for you to see the flames dancing in her hair and the lighting strobing around her fist. It's all drawn so energetically that your mind fills that stuff in on its own. Now that's a villain with some character!
    Also this : this is exactly what was bothering me about Kaido's hybrid form. Seeing him fight in this form, or at least some interesting battle stance, might have improved the situation, however what we get instead looks like Oda gave everything on Big Mom and ran out of ideas for Kaido, defaulting to the brick wall attitude we're familiar with.
    Last edited by Seafarer33; March 29th, 2021 at 01:23 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    So we had the Scabbards get back up, just so that they could be taken out again, this time one by one in a more cathartic way?

    This really cements how Oda wanted his cake and eat it too with this side plot, since he shove in

    the samurais rushing Kaido in a cool spreadpage,
    Them looking good against him landing damage and re-establishing his Oden PTSD, but then
    Them being ultimately crashed, all together and off screen, by Kaido as an hype tool, but also
    (now) getting taken out in individual blazes of glory,
    the twist shock of orochi being suddenly betrayed and brutally killed by Kaido, but also
    catharsis for the Scabbards in taking down the one they actually had the big grudge against and spent the last 20 years afraid of the profecy.

    I get how he wanted all of this to happen and not having to cherry pick among thhat stuff, and that he's not even remotely the kind of guy to skip on a rule of cool moment or to throw in a profecy just for it to be a dud, but it's kind of a mess at this point.
    Curiosity has its own reason for existing

  17. #37

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfiere View Post
    So we had the Scabbards get back up, just so that they could be taken out again, this time one by one in a more cathartic way?

    This really cements how Oda wanted his cake and eat it too with this side plot, since he shove in

    the samurais rushing Kaido in a cool spreadpage,
    Them looking good against him landing damage and re-establishing his Oden PTSD, but then
    Them being ultimately crashed, all together and off screen, by Kaido as an hype tool, but also
    (now) getting taken out in individual blazes of glory,
    the twist shock of orochi being suddenly betrayed and brutally killed by Kaido, but also
    catharsis for the Scabbards in taking down the one they actually had the big grudge against and spent the last 20 years afraid of the profecy.

    I get how he wanted all of this to happen and not having to cherry pick among thhat stuff, and that he's not even remotely the kind of guy to skip on a rule of cool moment or to throw in a profecy just for it to be a dud, but it's kind of a mess at this point.
    This ties in with one of my bigger complaints for Wano, that the story of the Scabbards and the country kinda feel like they should've been their own manga.
    The story about them is good. I like most of the scabbards, I'm invested in the villains, and you got this whole thing with Momonosuke having to live up to the legacy of his father. But it feels like a separate, self-contained story that's been tacked on to One Piece and forcefully fit into that world. And it's leading to situations like this where the OP story and Wano Story start competing with each other instead of being one natural whole.

    It's really a shame, even though I liked this chapter I can't deny that if feels like padding.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    It's absolutely the case that Oda wanted to do a Samurai story on its own terms. But was also already doing One Piece so it just got wedged in as a subplot and the whole thing is suffering for it now.

    Same way Dresserossa was like 4 different arcs crammed into one and that made it a mess.

    I know OP is his life's work but maybe he could have saved the Samurai epic as a one year story he did after he finishes OP. Woulda come out cleaner that way AND cut OP's length down signficantly.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    So, how do you guys think the castle will be collapsing after it's been set on fire by the Mad King

    Like this;



    or like this;


  20. #40

    Default Re: Chapter 1,008: Leader of the Atamayama Thieves Brigade, Ashura Doji

    Begs the question of how many uses can you get out of an emotion. Like remember those old rom com climaxes where the guy chases the girl to the airport and declares his love? Imagine if he did that twice in the last 45 minutes wouldn't the second time by default yield diminishing returns? And if you end up in a place where you have to have your story unfold in a repetitive way is that not a show of poor planning on your end?

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