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Thread: American Politics: A Brand New Day

  1. #401

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  2. #402

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Representatives Pramila Jayapal and Debbie Dingell introduced the Medicare For All Act today, and it's co-sponsored by over a hundred house Democrats.

    I'm finally starting to have hope that some of our most important long-term problems will really start improving under Biden (who just announced yesterday that he supports reforming the filibuster, another huge piece of good news).

  3. #403
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Hopefully M4A never makes it to the senate.

    And yeah the fillabuster will probably get some kind of reform in the near future. As soon as Manchin is done cycling as he loves to ride that bike of his for all its worth.

  4. #404

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    Hopefully M4A never makes it to the senate.
    See, this is why I keep thinking you're anti-progressive.

    What reason do you have to want M4A to fail?

  5. #405

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Because republicans will fiercely oppose and force for a settlement that's less than ideal?

  6. #406
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    What reason do you have to want M4A to fail?
    It will fail, nothing to do with a want. Already stated reasons why it will fail but sure here you go again, a few reasons it sucks:

    1. It costs way too much.

    2. I never ever ever ever ever want the GOP to be in charge of my healthcare.

    3. It's not popular when you actually go into details about it and will cause the Democratic Party to lose a few elections. Which is bad.

    4. A mixed healthcare system like Germany or Japan is a lot better. Most of all with a All-payer rate setting like they and my state have.

    5. Reducing industry profits will also result in layoffs and hits to people's 401(k)s.

    6. It failed in fucking Vermont which resulted in a Republican governor. Which you know, thanks Bernie.


    The progressive thing is to want universal healthcare and pick the best option that would lead us there. Not stick to slogans of failed candidates that promised way too much and could never deliver. Time to move on. Or just ignore these points like I am sure you will just like the last time this topic came up.
    Last edited by Dorobō Neko; March 17th, 2021 at 08:17 PM.

  7. #407

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by pariston_hill View Post
    Because republicans will fiercely oppose and force for a settlement that's less than ideal?
    They should no longer have the authority to force a settlement.
    We have no reason to expect a single Republican has any chance of voting for it, so why even bother negotiating at this point?

    The Democrats can pass it with budget reconciliation if the public can convince the remaining senate Democrats to support it.
    I don't expect the bill to pass in its current form on the first try, but we have almost two years and a good number of extremely unpleasant new incarnations of COVID are on the horizon that might help motivate them to move a little faster.

  8. #408
    Discovered Stowaway Dorobō Neko's Avatar
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Oh and Biden will veto it if the price is too much. Which is why you're not going to get many Dems on board with it. Would have been nice to have someone who knows how to budget these things really well in a position of power but alas she was too mean to Saint Bernard.

  9. #409
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    So remember how QAnon Lady said that Guam was a "foreign country" and "shouldn't get any assistance from the US? Well, the rep. and troops from Guam visited her office. With cookies:
    https://secondnexus.com/marjorie-tay...sZZ4Nu_eLQyCig

    However QAnon Lady being the nutjob that she is released a letter to the Pentagon whining that these guys AMBUSHED her office (with cookies). Well, I guess she would know what an "ambush" would look like.

  10. #410

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    I don't understand the obsession with M4A. Why don't you at least start with the healthcare system that the rest of the world has. It's a much more realistic goal and would be an enormous improvement. The US electorate is relatively right wing and conservative. M4A just isn't going to happen until that changes.

  11. #411

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    It's very hard to convince someone why they should pay for someone else's agreed upon debt tbh.

    The system is awful and I feel for all those poor folks around 2008 that got hit the hardest. A compromise is what we should brace for when it comes to student debt though. A full on forgiveness is just not going to happen. I would say that even if Bernie or Warren were president. It's just more complicated than some people get.
    That's fair. I always viewed it as something that would be "nice" but just not possible in my lifetime. As a prevous post said the U.S is too conservative in this regard to even bother. Too many minds would have to be changed, a large % being the types that balk at any sort of government help.

    And idk about 2022. Last time there was a trifecta with a 50/50 senate, the majority party actually ending up winning more seats. Everyone just got helped by the ARPA so the chances are not bad for the Democratic party. But even if we added 1-2 more senate seats, student debt forgiveness will still be at the bottom. There is just more pressing issues in my view. Free or cheaper education in general I would put higher up. But yeah if there is room in the budget after all that we should see what we can do.
    If anything I'd like to unfuck the health care system before tackling student loan forgiveness (as it's applicable to more parts of a person's life), but even that has a ton of hurdles to go through.

    Now mind you I say a lot of this as someone that has never been to college so no debt to speak of but I am someone that has had trouble putting food on the table so my priorities are vastly different than other people around my age.
    Understandable.





  12. #412

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorPhil View Post
    I don't understand the obsession with M4A. Why don't you at least start with the healthcare system that the rest of the world has. It's a much more realistic goal and would be an enormous improvement. The US electorate is relatively right wing and conservative. M4A just isn't going to happen until that changes.
    It's popular and easy to understand because a lot of people already have Medicare.
    I'm not opposed to other healthcare options but now that a bill's been introduced with support from more than half of the Democrats in the house, there's real potential for something similar to pass within the next year and a half.

    The US electorate is socially conservative but highly supportive of major progressive economic, infrastructure and regulatory reforms.
    People want the minimum wage raised, they want far more COVID stimulus checks, and they desperately want better healthcare.
    They want the right to smoke weed freely and for rich people to pay more in taxes.

    That's why Fox News has spent the last month whining about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head and Speedy Gonzales and Lola Bunny and Pepe Le Pew. They can't win on policy any more, so they're forced to go with "THE LEFT RUINED GHOSTBUSTERS AND STAR WARS AND THEY'RE COMING FOR THE REST OF YOUR DVD SHELF!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    It will fail, nothing to do with a want. Already stated reasons why it will fail but sure here you go again, a few reasons it sucks:

    1. It costs way too much.
    No one in power actually seems to care about how much anything costs.
    If we were consistently fiscally responsible I might be more willing to consider issues of cost, but we've spent trillions dropping dozens of bombs a day on countries we never needed to be at war with.
    Just last year we blew a trillion dollars because it was a pandemic and the few rich people who weren't told in advance that a pandemic was coming lost some money.

    Yes, on paper we should care about how much stuff costs, but in practice any time someone brings up cost it's a right-wing or neoliberal trick and not something seriously worth considering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    2. I never ever ever ever ever want the GOP to be in charge of my healthcare.
    I understand that concern, it's valid.
    However the healthcare situation is so dire for most of the country that I think it's worth the risk that Republicans will someday screw it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    3. It's not popular when you actually go into details about it and will cause the Democratic Party to lose a few elections. Which is bad.
    Citation needed.
    I really don't see Biden losing in 2024 because he passed Medicare for All during a pandemic, and if Biden is popular he can prop up Democrats in Congress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    4. A mixed healthcare system like Germany or Japan is a lot better. Most of all with a All-payer rate setting like they and my state have.
    If that becomes the only plan that makes it to Biden's desk I'll support it, but it really doesn't seem to have a lot of momentum right now.

    I'm admittedly not the most informed person when it comes to the various healthcare plans, but I do know that Medicare works and Medicare HMOs are a pain.
    Whenever the health insurance industry is involved, they'll lie and find ways to cheat you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    5. Reducing industry profits will also result in layoffs and hits to people's 401(k)s.
    This really reveals the source of your bias: you have money.
    No one I know from my generation has a 401K.

    It's unfortunate that some people will lose their jobs, but many of those were useless administrative jobs to begin with.
    If we all get good healthcare out of this I am willing to sacrifice those jobs, and hopefully those people will either land on their feet or join the rest of us in demanding UBI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    6. It failed in fucking Vermont which resulted in a Republican governor. Which you know, thanks Bernie.
    This one really confuses me, because I've read that it was never actually implemented as a result of sabotage from Republicans, the healthcare industry, and Vermont's then-neoliberal governor.
    The idea that Sue Minter lost because of single payer doesn't really seem to be that popular or well-founded, and I'm seeing a bunch of different arguments on Google about why she lost.

    Regardless, implementing a single payer plan on the federal level is very different from doing so on a state level, so I'm not that concerned.
    She wasn't even running against a Trumpian, openly-fascist candidate, so Biden vs Trump 2024 will be nothing like Minter vs Scott 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    The progressive thing is to want universal healthcare and pick the best option that would lead us there. Not stick to slogans of failed candidates that promised way too much and could never deliver. Time to move on. Or just ignore these points like I am sure you will just like the last time this topic came up.
    The progressive thing is to support universal healthcare in general and not wish for a good plan to fail as soon as it starts getting real momentum in congress just because it was the signature policy of a failed candidate you don't like.

    You saw how much I hated Biden during the first half of the election, yet I still showed up to vote for him because his policies were better than Trump and he was obviously going to be a better leader than Trump.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    Now mind you I say a lot of this as someone that has never been to college so no debt to speak of but I am someone that has had trouble putting food on the table so my priorities are vastly different than other people around my age.
    Alright, now I'm really confused about where you're at economically.
    I'm poor, disabled and have struggled for most of my life while watching friends and family be constantly harassed and sometimes financially ruined by the healthcare industry.

    If you're familiar with the plight of the lower class, why do you care if a few people with 401Ks lose their jobs?
    Last edited by RoboBlue; March 18th, 2021 at 07:48 AM.

  13. #413

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Another reason republicans and Mitch McConnell can fuck off into the sun

    https://www.rawstory.com/172-republi...dicted-gunman/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  14. #414
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    I think that a lot of people tend to have trouble noticing that they assume themselves to be part of a larger majority.

    Just because you see things, or live in, a certain way does not mean that most people also do that. Sometimes, though it might be hard to admit or come to terms with, you are a part of a minority.

    I don’t think that most people use Medicare. And for that reason, I think that most people will probably be opposed to Medicare for all.

  15. #415
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    Another reason republicans and Mitch McConnell can fuck off into the sun

    https://www.rawstory.com/172-republi...dicted-gunman/
    Doesn't seem to be concerned that his Asian wife could get targeted either.

  16. #416

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
    Doesn't seem to be concerned that his Asian wife could get targeted either.
    Well combined her and him have enough money between themselves to hire their own personal security. Which given how shitty of an individual Mitch is and enjoys being he'd need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  17. #417

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbycide View Post
    I think that a lot of people tend to have trouble noticing that they assume themselves to be part of a larger majority.

    Just because you see things, or live in, a certain way does not mean that most people also do that. Sometimes, though it might be hard to admit or come to terms with, you are a part of a minority.

    I don’t think that most people use Medicare. And for that reason, I think that most people will probably be opposed to Medicare for all.
    A little over 22% of voters use Medicare, so yes that's a minority.
    However, M4A has consistently polled at above 50% since before the pandemic began, and the vast majority of Democrats support it.

    I think it's strange to assume that just because most people can't get Medicare the majority oppose expanding it, especially when all the polls say the opposite is true.

    Edit: A good short summary of the history of anti-Asian racism in the US:
    Last edited by RoboBlue; March 18th, 2021 at 06:01 PM.

  18. #418
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    No one in power actually seems to care about how much anything costs.
    This is a bad argument. In Biden's own words about M4A, "It's time to get real" and he says that knowing the costs are way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Yes, on paper we should care about how much stuff costs, but in practice any time someone brings up cost it's a right-wing or neoliberal trick and not something seriously worth considering.
    No we should care about it now because we all know who will get the bill. 30 to 40 Trillion dollars is something we should be concerned with. Jesus Christ a year and half of Bernie's M4A is equal, if not more, to like the last 20 years of all our military exercises. When you're talking about reforming 1/6th of our whole economy you better know how much it will cost and what that cost will lead to. Never mind that one tiny mistake can lead to millions of people suffering. It's not something you can ignore or say it is a trick. It costs way to much to take risks here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I understand that concern, it's valid.
    However the healthcare situation is so dire for most of the country that I think it's worth the risk that Republicans will someday screw it up.
    Do you? Because you would not be saying that if you did. We pass this untested way too costly bill and the second the Republicans get their hands on it (and they will) they will make life living hell for millions and millions of Americans. That risk is very much a high one that needs to be actually addressed and it really sounds like you don't get what happens when this fucks up.


    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Citation needed.
    This link was already giving to you by someone else last year and you ignored it, as you do. Since it's proof it's not as popular as you think it is and the polls you're reading are not accurate since they don't go into asking about finer details. When you ask about the tax increases or replacing their healthcare with Medicare/Medicaid, it looses popularity. Every single time.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I really don't see Biden losing in 2024 because he passed Medicare for All during a pandemic, and if Biden is popular he can prop up Democrats in Congress.
    Biden might survive but congress will be DoA for the Democratic Party and yes 2028 you should expect a Republican to get back in the White House. Then your M4A is fucked more than it already would be. It's going to take a phase in period of a few years anyway. Something Warren at least seemed to understand which oh right, lost her progressives points for some reason. It will come in time just to fuck us over in 2028. It will not be a magic fix all to all of our problems. It will make more problems.


    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    If that becomes the only plan that makes it to Biden's desk I'll support it, but it really doesn't seem to have a lot of momentum right now.
    Something we should change instead of wanting a DoA bill to be vetoed off his desk because again, it costs way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I'm admittedly not the most informed person when it comes to the various healthcare plans
    That's fine. That's why I am trying to explain to you why the one you want is way too expensive and forceful to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    This really reveals the source of your bias: you have money.
    Oh I wish. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    It's unfortunate that some people will lose their jobs, but many of those were useless administrative jobs to begin with.
    If we all get good healthcare out of this I am willing to sacrifice those jobs, and hopefully those people will either land on their feet or join the rest of us in demanding UBI.
    Their sacrifices are what you're willing to make? Your lack of empathy and understanding the job market is noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    This one really confuses me, because I've read that it was never actually implemented as a result of sabotage from Republicans, the healthcare industry, and Vermont's then-neoliberal governor.
    So you're saying it failed before it even began? Wonderful.

    That article has a clear bias and not really getting into what actually happened so to counter it, here is a bias one more in favor of the former governor and then two that are more to the point and accurate about why it failed. Spoilers, it costs too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Regardless, implementing a single payer plan on the federal level is very different from doing so on a state level, so I'm not that concerned.
    You're right, way more people will suffer from its failures on the federal level. You should be deeply concerned because this is not an easy on/off switch here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    The progressive thing is to support universal healthcare in general and not wish for a good plan to fail as soon as it starts getting real momentum in congress just because it was the signature policy of a failed candidate you don't like.
    Again, it's not a want or a wish, it's something that will fail. Because it is bad. The only reason you go for it is because you got suckered in by Bernie's horseshit.

    Bernie made the whole primary about healthcare and he lost to the guy who is against M4A. So why not go for something progressive that will have a better shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    You saw how much I hated Biden during the first half of the election,
    Yes it was obnoxious and ignoring reality at every turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    yet I still showed up to vote for him because his policies were better than Trump and he was obviously going to be a better leader than Trump.
    That's good and the right thing to do. Supporting an untested healthcare plan that's not even all that popular with great risks is not good or the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Alright, now I'm really confused about where you're at economically.
    Bottom of the tax bracket, normally a restaurant worker, currently unemployed due to the pandemic, always at risk of becoming homeless.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    If you're familiar with the plight of the lower class, why do you care if a few people with 401Ks lose their jobs?
    Because I am not an asshole? Because I understand the job market?

    I mean asking why do you care about people losing their jobs is just a shitty thing to ask really. It was a side point more than most of the other points but it's still valid to care and yes, understand the point is there will be more pushback at The Democratic Party if Biden becomes stupid and passes such an awful bill that hurts people.

    This whole thing is moot and pointless because it's going to never get up to Biden's desk nor would he sign it if it did.

  19. #419

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    If the US could overnight have the health care plan every other civilized country in the world has, with everything about it worked out and in place, that'd be great. Sure, pass that shit immediately.

    But much like "make college free" and "green new deal" the costs and logistics and systems supporting it are enormous and would affect the economy at every conceivable level and willl take years to figure out the logistics. Talking something like 1/5 or 1/6 of the entire budget to get that going.

    And the first time Republicans get in to fuck it up to try and privatize it more, they will, just look at the willfull and completely intentional destruction of post office.

    Its something that has to be done in steps. Hell, people are still complaining about *Obamacare* raising their taxes (even though it doesn't affect you below a certain point) so gotta do it in bits and piece. Start by doing something like, put a profit limit on lifesaving drugs. It shouldn't cost anyone 700$ a month for insulin or blood pressure meds when that costs pennies to produce.

    College? Yeah it'd be great to just forgive all student debt, that would do wonders for the economy but... what happens to all the banks that have financial tie ins that have moved money around that doesn't exist? So you CAN'T just do that. But maybe... significant (really significant) tax breaks if you're paying student debt or have a child in college? That could be done. Or force an upper cap on how much tuition is, that's expanded waaaay past inflation and that bubble needs popping. (Same with the housing market.)

    Similarly, Green New Deal in all its glory isn't going to happen. We NEED to do a lot of things to move towards no emissions, but it just can't all be eliminated immmediately. All cars going forward should be hybrids, and after say, 2030 all cars should be fully electric (and car companies are doing that anyway) but you can't just declare "no more gas stations and all solar power by 2025", it just aint gonna happen.

    We need a 15$ minimum wage (really it should be at 20 by now) but that would kill a lot of industries, especially those being hurt by covid that already can't stay open. So you have to set a scale. Like say, any company with 2000+ employees nationwide has to hit the minmum. Or any company where a CEO make 1 million+ $ a year must raise their employees minimum wage. Businesses that have less than 4 employees can increase it slowly over the next several years. And everyone in between on a sliding scale. Companies will have to increase to compete anyway, but it won't instantly kill mom and pop shops. Plus, costs in one state are different from the next. You have to make more in California than you do in Ohio.

    Progress that is actually *possible* rather than wishes that are impossible needs to be the goal.
    Last edited by Robby; March 18th, 2021 at 09:17 PM.
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  20. #420
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    That's my mind set really.

    Like you can point to a poll that says the majority of people in West Virginia want the $15 minimum wage increase and Senator Manchin wants it to be $11 or $12 instead so clearly he is just in the wrong right? But much like those M4A polls, ask those same yeses if they would be okay with losing their jobs for it, which many would, and then support dies fast.

    Got to be bit by bit.

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