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Thread: American Politics: A Brand New Day

  1. #341

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here, but...innocent until proven guilty. Innocence doesn't need to be proven.
    I'm sympathetic to that way of thinking, but it's just not how we handle sex crime allegations against politicians in this country.

    If it was Bernie he'd be demanding a resignation.

    When something like this happens I tend to think of it from two perspectives:

    First: how will it affect policy and the balance of political power?
    Cuomo is an abatross around the neck of the Democratic Party and he's likely going to fall sooner than later.
    His lieutenant governor is also a Democrat (and a woman), and while I haven't done any real research on her it's hard to imagine she'd be as bad as he's been for the last five months.
    Cuomo has put me and my family in real mortal danger so there's almost no risk for me in losing him as governor.

    Second: what treatment does our society expect high-ranking politicians accused of sex crimes to get, and how will the treatment of this specific accused politician affect that expectation going forward?
    Frankly, we have a major problem with politicians getting away with literally anything and the more people we make examples of (as long as it doesn't hurt our policy goals), the better.
    Politicians are not civilians, and I have yet to meet one that deserves the pity and empathy that you'd give to an average person. They should not have an inherent presumption of innocence, because we know they live and work within an extremely corrupt system and their accusers quite literally risk their lives to make these claims. They will be threatened and harassed, and face retaliation in some form.

  2. #342

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    https://www.salon.com/2021/02/27/eve...a-of-the-f-35/

    aMeRiCuN eNgInEeRiNg aT iT’s FiNeSt
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  3. #343

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Perhaps I'm splitting hairs here, but...innocent until proven guilty. Innocence doesn't need to be proven.
    There's a difference between rpresumed innocence when it comes to a court sentencing, and presumed innocence in letting powerful figures stay in power while they abuse it.

    When you are in a position of power and it's possible there's been abuse of power, cover ups, or potential blackmail, then yes it IS appropriate to step back for a moment. Especially if you're innocent and know the facts are on your side that you'll be cleared shortly. Cooperate fully, you have nothing to hide, easy.

    If they are innocent, that's usually pretty easy to prove in cases like this since politicians have their schedules down to the hour going back years and its pretty easy to poke holes in the story of the accusers, and because they interact with a LOT of assistants so lots of people end up knowing the dirt even if they stay quiet about it..

    Once there are *multiple* sexual assault claims you start to give benefit of the doubt to the victims. One claim could be a crazy or an attention or money seeker or political attack, and you side with the accused at one accustation... but after there are multiple you lose some of that benefit of doubt.

    No don't end a man's career and put them in jail without checking, especially in politics where its real easy for the opposition party to just make shit up to smear people... but if the evidence is at all credible you lean towards the victims since coming out with such allegations is so so heavily weighted and traumatizing.

    Innocent until proven guilty, yes, don't met out punishment in advance, but if there's more than one claim, throw some doubt towards someone's crediblity until they're cleared, especially if their trackrecord speaks towards abuses of power.

    It's a fine line but there IS a line when it come to those in power who can continue to abuse that power against others while left unchecked.
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  4. #344

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Elliot Spitzer one of the two Governors that preceded Cuomo resigned for much less.

    As mentioned even without the sexual assaults Cuomo has too many issues surrounding him it's shitty that of all the Governors whose fucked up he's the only one being held accountable for their horrible response to Covid and other issues but it is what it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  5. #345
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Yeah this is a pattern now. The first one you could have made a case that timing and giving who the victim was (a GOP operative), it was a GOP stunt since Cuomo was showing up Trump. But even then there was talk about him and this one allegation, while far more tame the first one, is pretty damning.

    Looks like an investigation will be done by the AG by request. Though I would prefer the AG actually run instead of him.

    I fear like it will be like what happened with the Virginia Governor, no matter the outcome, he'll still be in there, run and win giving just how popular he is in New York.

  6. #346

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Green_vs_Red View Post
    https://www.salon.com/2021/02/27/eve...a-of-the-f-35/

    aMeRiCuN eNgInEeRiNg aT iTís FiNeSt
    If only we knew about this years ago, our leaders could have prevented this massive waste of taxpayer money.

    Thanks Bush and Obama and Trump.

  7. #347

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Yeah the F-35 has been a disaster for years and the perfect example of the sunk-cost fallacy.

    If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life

  8. #348
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    Yeah this is a pattern now. The first one you could have made a case that timing and giving who the victim was (a GOP operative), it was a GOP stunt since Cuomo was showing up Trump. But even then there was talk about him and this one allegation, while far more tame the first one, is pretty damning.

    Looks like an investigation will be done by the AG by request. Though I would prefer the AG actually run instead of him.

    I fear like it will be like what happened with the Virginia Governor, no matter the outcome, he'll still be in there, run and win giving just how popular he is in New York.
    Just in case you don't know, in Virginia, Governors can only serve for 1 term. It's the only 1 term Governor state. After that, they usually run for Senator and then drift into obscurity.

    Although currently, Virginia has 2 Democratic Senators and the current Governor is also a Democrat.
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  9. #349
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    The promise of the F-35, that they could develop what amounted to 3 cutting edge jets for the price of 1.5 was overly ambitious and they ended up developing 3 cutting edge jets for the price of 3.

    Otherwise, all the murmurs about teething issues or it being ineffective are a complete fabrication, or blowing issues experienced by every aircraft totally out of proportion. The F/A-18 was also seen as an expensive, overly multi-purpose boondoggle. The F-16 was called "the lawn dart" and everyone thought a single-engine fighter was a deathtrap based on some early crashes. Those two are now gobally-accepted and incredibly successful aircraft. The only difference is that those happened before the age of massive foreign disinfo ops on social media.

    Nearly every American ally with money wants the F-35, including countries with their own aviation industries like Japan. China's flagship 5th Generation fighter is built in large part on stolen F-35 technology. That isn't because of the sunk-cost fallacy.

    Edit: The Eurofighter is the disaster people act like the F-35 is. It’s purchase price is ridiculously high for what’s essentially a worse F-15 and it’s per-hour operating costs are by most metrics roughly as expensive as 5th gen fighters.
    Last edited by Lord Gaimon; March 1st, 2021 at 01:08 PM.

  10. #350
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeorn View Post
    Just in case you don't know, in Virginia, Governors can only serve for 1 term. It's the only 1 term Governor state. After that, they usually run for Senator and then drift into obscurity.

    Although currently, Virginia has 2 Democratic Senators and the current Governor is also a Democrat.
    Oh I know. Next door neighbors with the state.

    I should have been more clear with what I was talking about, the current governor had that racist picture scandal that came out but it really didn't force him to resign.

    I could see this happening with Cuomo.

  11. #351
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    A shame Neera Tanden's nomination got pulled. I mean no admin gets 100% of their picks but I guess the GOP, media and Bernie along with those awful scum he picked to run his camp is happy they think they took down a progressive woman of color like her and using "mean tweets" as the "reason." Still waiting to see those mean tweets but guess we never will now!

    Anyway I am sure she'll get another job with the White House but bullshit like this needs to end and the reasons it happened should get looked at more closely than having us let bad faith actors have their "win" they didn't earn.

  12. #352

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Let's just agree that we don't want any more Twitter trolls in the White House and leave it at that.

  13. #353
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    No because the sexism and racism of this is awful and needs to be called out. And thinking she is a "Twitter troll" is a way to avoid the bigotry of pulling a qualified woman of color like her.

    And she'll still get a job in the White House anyway. Meanwhile assholes happy about her nom being pulled will never get a job there. Thank fuck.

  14. #354

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    A shame Neera Tanden's nomination got pulled. I mean no admin gets 100% of their picks but I guess the GOP, media and Joe Manchin along with those awful scum he picked to run his camp is happy they think they took down a progressive woman of color like her and using "mean tweets" as the "reason." Still waiting to see those mean tweets but guess we never will now!

    Slight fix .

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Let's just agree that we don't want any more Twitter trolls in the White House and leave it at that.
    Would be okay if we also didn't have to see trolls in key positions in congress such as Collins, Graham, Cruz, Johnson, Manchin,McConnell and all those dumbasses that voted to acquit Trump and or vote to overturn the election results.
    Last edited by Green_vs_Red; March 3rd, 2021 at 03:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  15. #355
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    I mean sure, you can add Manchin there as he is the king of the USA but Bernie didn't really really need to bring up these supposed "mean tweets" of hers to give Manchin and the GOP an excuse to get her pulled.

    His job in this situation was to ensure she gets through but let ego and pettiness get in the way.

    Nothing she ever said about the GOP was wrong but they got their win and punished a qualified woman right in Women's History Month. That's the story. Not "twitter trolls should not be hired!" since all that does is cover up their sexism/racism. We got to stop giving the GOP any types of win.
    Last edited by Dorobō Neko; March 3rd, 2021 at 02:06 PM.

  16. #356

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Bernie did muck to be fair it up a bit but Manchin comes off looking particuarly suspect with what happened to Tanden don't know what it is exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  17. #357
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Oh yeah Manchin did this for obvious reasons like sexism, racism and yes the pettiness about his daughter being rightfully called out by Tanden.

    And he sadly got away with it under perfect cover.

    Edit: I am just gonna say it, if she was a white man she never would have gotten this treatment from Manchin and Sanders.
    Last edited by Dorobō Neko; March 3rd, 2021 at 04:22 PM.

  18. #358

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post

    Edit: I am just gonna say it, if she was a white man she never would have gotten this treatment from Manchin and Sanders.
    No she but she would've probably had ticked people like Susan "He Learned His Lesson" Collins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  19. #359

    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    Oh yeah Manchin did this for obvious reasons like sexism, racism and yes the pettiness about his daughter being rightfully called out by Tanden.

    And he sadly got away with it under perfect cover.

    Edit: I am just gonna say it, if she was a white man she never would have gotten this treatment from Manchin and Sanders.
    Why is Sanders the default villain in so much of politics for you?

    after this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorobō Neko View Post
    No because the sexism and racism of this is awful and needs to be called out. And thinking she is a "Twitter troll" is a way to avoid the bigotry of pulling a qualified woman of color like her.

    And she'll still get a job in the White House anyway. Meanwhile assholes happy about her nom being pulled will never get a job there. Thank fuck.
    I felt like pointing out that by that logic anyone who attacks Bernie is an antisemite.

    After your your second post calling Bernie a racist even though you'd already been corrected about Manchin being the real culprit (on the left) behind Neera's failure... I'm seriously starting to wonder.

    You hate Bernie for reasons that really seem to go well beyond policy and can't easily be explained by you just being misinformed.
    You damage the antiracism movement by saying things like "if she was a white man" about someone who clearly failed because people disagreed with her on policy and distrusted her based on her history.
    You think people who believe women are stupid, and freely tell them that when an accuser confronts a candidate that you like (especially if that accusation might benefit their ethnically Jewish opponent).

    Maybe you do have some negative feelings about Jews that you need to reexamine.
    Last edited by RoboBlue; March 4th, 2021 at 02:08 AM.

  20. #360
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    Default Re: American Politics: A Brand New Day

    Maybe you have negative feelings about people who don’t love Sanders that you need to re-examine.

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