+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 62

Thread: Sanji & Yamato

  1. #1

    Default Sanji & Yamato

    Yamato, who was born as a female and identified as a male (Oden) since reading his book, has been seen as a likely upcoming nakama for the Strawhat crew. Sanji has always ogled and fawned over female crew members (as well as non crew members), but Yamato does not identify as female. How should Sanji-Namato scenes be handled in a way that maintains political correctness?

    Sanji has definitely backed off from pursuing cis men who identified as women, showing that perhaps what someone identifies as doesn't matter to him (though his "gentlemanly" traits could perhaps kick in and change that). Other than that, he's lovestruck over women of almost any shape or size. If he does ogle over Yamato, the reaction from Yamato could likely be just like Oden's: "Get away from me! I'm a man, like you, and have no interest in this!" Would this stop him? Assuming Yamato has no interest in males, and does identify as male still at the end of this arc (when "Oden" would have gotten his revenge), Sanji ignoring all that might be seen as politically incorrect and make those scenes particularly uncomfortable for readers (even more than those who felt he was harassing Nami and Robin in uncomfortable ways-- this is about ignoring how one identifies themselves). Oda, who likes to include a diverse range of people and show them all some respect, might also feel too uncomfortable continuing to write these scenes to proceed with them. And yet, if he didn't, would it be out of character for Sanji to control himself around Yamato?

    How do you think the Sanji + Yamato scenes should be or will be handled?


  2. #2

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Personally, thinking about Sanji and Yamato interacting is one of the big reasons why I have little interest in Yamato joining the crew lol.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Sanji's sick love for women has different aspects to it. Putting it simply, there is (a) the respect and overprotection to women just like what Zeff taught him, and (b) the sexual attraction. These things are different.

    In regards to "a", I don't know how Sanji would treat Yamato as a transman. Maybe Sanji would treat him like a man, or maybe Sanji would protect Yamato like he does to a woman... it's hard to know. That said, it's not exactly that I think Sanji denies transgenders and transexuality, because he probably would keep regarding Kiku as a woman even if he found out that Kiku was born male (although it could be a comic shock at a first glance). It's just that Sanji will probably lean towards whichever womanhood is inside the person, be it the gender or physical one, so he would act the same way towards both Kiku and Yamato.

    In regards to "b", sexual attraction has nothing to with "biological sex" or gender. It's about appearances. Yamato may be a man, but he looks like a woman and he is attractive to people who likes women, so Sanji will most likely fawn over Yamato. And if Sanji tries to flirt with Yamato, that's not disrespectful per se, nor is this anti-trans, because Yamato can be a man and still another man can flirt with him. If Sanji wants to flirt with Zoro, Sanji can too. Btw, Yamato can be trans and gay (meaning being a transman who is attracted to man), so it would be diserable to flirt with other man. Sanji is only wrong because he usually overdoes his flirting, just like he already does with Nami and Robin, so Yamato would be no different, just another annoyed person by Sanji's love attack.

  4. #4
    Discovered Stowaway fana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    France

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    I don't think it will be such a big deal. Sanji can act "normal" with attractive women. His 1st interaction might be the usual but it's bond to become pretty casual when he learns what Yamato wants.

    Kinda reminds me of people dreading that he will be creepy with his own sister when she was first introduced and none of that happened.

    Only thing I can predict is that he might call Yamato "Yamato-kun" which would complete the trio of suffix (Nami-san, Robin-chan).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Well i mean AP has flanderized Sunkist into this pepe le pew style borderline rapist meme

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Well i mean AP has flanderized Sunkist into this pepe le pew style borderline rapist meme
    Naw, Oda's done that well enough himself, but that's an entirely different conversation.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    I mean i can sympathize since i tend to do the same thing with Ace, but AP tends to take whats in the book, run two turns around the block with it and season it liberally with own thoughts and memes and then go why would Oda do this. Not asking anyone to change, just saying when you have a question about what in-story Sanji would do, then substituting meme Sunkist won't quite do

  8. #8
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Mt. GOATmore

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Everything Sanji does is for the good. I'm not sure if Sanji is just always good or if good is defined by Sanji, but I know the results.
    Check out my podcast for conversations about Greatness in anime, sports, music, and whatever else we can think of.
    mtgoatmore.buzzsprout.com

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    There's no need for any "political correctness", it's a manga not a government statement. I can see a comedic situation coming out of it and therefore I like it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    First of all Yamato is not a transgender. O-Kiku is a transgender,Yamato is just a Oden fan-girl. Second,if Yamato joins i think Sanji wont be too "pervert" around her,because altough Yamato is a girl she is still a tom-boy,and Sanji usually acts more "pervert" with women who are more feminine,so i think he and Brook might act as perverts once or twice but then they will do it more just with Nami and Robin. Now that i think about it,recently its just Nami that gets the pervert actions of Sanji and Brook,Robin not so much in recent times. By the way,altough i know that Oda is a good person and that he respects diversity,dont look at him like a "politically correct" person,this attitude belongs more to western stories that japanese stories. They dont really care about all of this. Just think about when Sanji gets scandalized because the okama gave him blood in Fishman Island...yeah,not really politically correct,right? But thats ok of course Oda meant well he didnt want to offend anyone.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Can't believe people are still saying Yamato doesn't view himself as a man...

    Anyways, it's definitely a concern of mine. Hell, I'm still worried about Kiku as well. At the same time, Oda so far has been 100% consistent about having characters who are familiar with Yamato address him as a man/Kaido's son, so hopefully at worst we'd get one uncomfortable gag, and then after that Sanji treats him normally.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by Blissed View Post
    Can't believe people are still saying Yamato doesn't view himself as a man...
    (Prefacing this by saying that I'm trans myself) I think unfortunately the situation is a little more complicated just because the character is still so new and it's hard to tell if Oda is truly treating them as a trans character or just a "a girl who think she's a man as a goof." With Oda's previous track record of handling trans characters it's hard for me personally to believe it's the former. However yeah, right now Yamato has done nothing but use masculine pronouns and say he's a man/Oden, so seeing people try and deny that can be frustrating.

    Anyways, it's definitely a concern of mine. Hell, I'm still worried about Kiku as well. At the same time, Oda so far has been 100% consistent about having characters who are familiar with Yamato address him as a man/Kaido's son, so hopefully at worst we'd get one uncomfortable gag, and then after that Sanji treats him normally.
    This is basically how I feel too, except I think you're a little more positive than I am haha. There's no doubt in my mind that there will be at least one joke with Sanji and I'm hoping it ends at just that. But like I mentioned earlier, depending on how Oda takes things, I worry that it'll be reoccurring.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by Blissed View Post
    Can't believe people are still saying Yamato doesn't view himself as a man...

    Anyways, it's definitely a concern of mine. Hell, I'm still worried about Kiku as well. At the same time, Oda so far has been 100% consistent about having characters who are familiar with Yamato address him as a man/Kaido's son, so hopefully at worst we'd get one uncomfortable gag, and then after that Sanji treats him normally.
    There's not much in Sanji's past that shows this. Lol The exceptions are his sister, children, Kiku, and old women like Shinobu. If you're a young, attractive character that has a typical female anatomy, it's over. It's one of the reasons why I don't see Yamato joining. He would break Sanji's shtick.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    I'm not going to dive too deeply into this... Oda loves his recurring gags and if Yamato does join, there's definitely going to be gags and outrageous interactions between the crew, including Sanji.
    Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

  15. #15

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleWizard View Post
    (Prefacing this by saying that I'm trans myself) I think unfortunately the situation is a little more complicated just because the character is still so new and it's hard to tell if Oda is truly treating them as a trans character or just a "a girl who think she's a man as a goof." With Oda's previous track record of handling trans characters it's hard for me personally to believe it's the former. However yeah, right now Yamato has done nothing but use masculine pronouns and say he's a man/Oden, so seeing people try and deny that can be frustrating.

    Well you're actually trans, so I'll ultimately defer to you, but the way I see it, it's pretty straightforward. We have a character that explicitly describes himself as a man, as Kaido's son. Luffy (who imo is basically Oda speaking through him), the Beast Pirates, and Kaido have been 100% consistent with respecting his gender identity. Whether it's an explicitly masculine nickname, masculine pronouns, describing him/himself as Kaido's son, or the Beast Pirates calling him "young master (a term only used for young men), the text has made it clear how Oda wants us to view him. Even in Ch. 999, it's strongly implied Yamato took issue with the Spade Pirates calling him Kaido's "daughter". Like people try to latch onto to the introduction box (an admittedly very clumsy way to clarify Yamato's biological gender), but then weirdly ignore that not once has the actual characters familiar with Yamato refer to him as a woman. The only thing viewed as a gag is the Oden aspect of it (Ulti and Momo's reactions come to mind) But even Ulti still recognizes him as Kaido's son.

    When the character was just introduced, existing for like 3 or so chapters at the time, I understood wanting more clarification. But now the character has been around for awhile now, and nothing has changed in regards to how they refer to Yamato. So to ignore that IMHO is to ignore basic reality. And I know not everyone is malicious about it (especially those that can at least acknowledge Kiku's gender identity), but it's very frustrating to point all this out, only for it to be ignored. Feels like the only reason people struggle with Yamato as opposed to Kiku is because he doesn't look masculine enough.

    As for the counterargument of anticipating this character arc where Yamato fully grows out of the "Oden" persona, and thus goes back to viewing himself as a woman, I don't get that one either.

    Like... I don't understand why people think it makes sense to misgender a character based on what they think will happen. The most common sense thing to do here is to only begin referring to Yamato using feminine pronouns once the character has actually started to view themselves as a woman. And not a moment before. You lose out on literally nothing by acknowledging how Oda currently views the character.

    Even then, it's not this guaranteed thing that will happen. Yamato has since kind of chilled out with the constant talk of them being Oden, referring to himself as Yamato whenever he feels like it. And even before that, Luffy took issue with Yamato calling himself Oden, but still proceeded to give him a clearly masculine nickname. So it's certainly possible for Yamato to drop the Oden shtick, but still feel more comfortable as a man.

    This is basically how I feel too, except I think you're a little more positive than I am haha. There's no doubt in my mind that there will be at least one joke with Sanji and I'm hoping it ends at just that. But like I mentioned earlier, depending on how Oda takes things, I worry that it'll be reoccurring.
    The only reason I have anything close to optimism is because there is a noticeable effort on Oda's part in regards to Kiku and Yamato, like them not having caricatured designs for one thing. Now, that doesn't mean there won't be any Sanji gags, and it's not like Oda's handled them 100% perfectly. But they are still clear improvements, and I hope that that means that Oda would have the self awareness to not make it this reoccurring thing. Would be really odd to be 100% consistent so far, including with the main character of the series, and then just throw all that out repeatedly when it comes to Sanji. I can begrudgingly live with a shock value gag where Sanji's initially surprised, but if it becomes a repeat thing for either character I'd be deeply disappointed.

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    There's not much in Sanji's past that shows this. Lol The exceptions are his sister, children, Kiku, and old women like Shinobu. If you're a young, attractive character that has a typical female anatomy, it's over. It's one of the reasons why I don't see Yamato joining. He would break Sanji's shtick.
    I mean honestly, I don't really mind the idea of Sanji being attracted to him, whether he struggles with it or not. There's nothing really wrong with that.

    Really, the only things to avoid (to make me personally comfortable), assuming Yamato continues to view himself as a man, is:

    1. His shtick of defending women (the bad optics of him doing that for Yamato is obvious)

    2. His inability to hurt women (If Yamato steals from the Sunny's fridge, he should get his ass beat lol)

    3. Maliciously disregarding Yamato's gender identity

    For #3, I don't actually feel like Sanji would do this to a non caricatured trans character, even more so if Yamato actually joins the crew, but you never know I suppose. Overall, the first two things is certainly a lot to ask for from an author that very much enjoys his low hanging fruit/running gags, but I would love to be surprised...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by Blissed View Post

    3. Maliciously disregarding Yamato's gender identity

    For #3, I don't actually feel like Sanji would do this to a non caricatured trans character, even more so if Yamato actually joins the crew, but you never know I suppose. Overall, the first two things is certainly a lot to ask for from an author that very much enjoys his low hanging fruit/running gags, but I would love to be surprised...
    This is the biggest one for me and it's not even close. Disregarding Yamato's identity would be the absolute worst of the worst. Completely ignoring Yamato's identify just so that Sanji could do his shtick for his readers' laughs and giggles would be truly awful. I'd like to think that Oda is smarter than that, which is why I say not putting Yamato in that position in the first place makes the most sense.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    I mean i can sympathize since i tend to do the same thing with Ace, but AP tends to take whats in the book, run two turns around the block with it and season it liberally with own thoughts and memes and then go why would Oda do this. Not asking anyone to change, just saying when you have a question about what in-story Sanji would do, then substituting meme Sunkist won't quite do
    Didn't he use his newly found invisibility powers to peek on women in a bath house and abandon an infiltration mission to go hunt prostitutes in just this current arc alone?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    Didn't he use his newly found invisibility powers to peek on women in a bath house and abandon an infiltration mission to go hunt prostitutes in just this current arc alone?
    Sanji's moral limits in regards to this kind of stuff may be looser than most people's limits, especially for western audiences, but there's a line he doesn't cross in order to not be anywhere close to a rapist. The most obvious reference of that happened during Thriller Bark, when Oda showed the contrast between Absalom (an actual rapist) and Sanji, who would only go as far as peeping women naked if he had invisible powers. We can discuss how bad it is to peep (without taking pictures, which is much aggravating), and it is wrong and reprehensible, but it's far from rape or an ireedeemable act of violence, in my opinion... and that's the worst Sanji will do.

    Btw, I should recall that the entire Strawhat crew and King Cobra have all peeped on women, so we should throw everybody into the fire for that if that's the case... but I never saw a strong reaction to that bath scene in Alabasta as the backlash to Sanji peeping girls in a public mixed bath in Wano. Of course, anyone if free to complain and see it as wrong. (And why Oda draws such scenes? What I believe happens here is that Oda thinks of peeping as a childish thing that boys daydream to do in their young years of sexual curiosity, and it's not to be taken too seriously, and it's not supposed to be seen as an example to be followed.)

    So why readers complain so much about Sanji's behavior if I'm arguing that he doesn't go beyond a line the entire crew has crossed? Mostly because Sanji's gags are cringy and obnoxious and too repetitive, so he became a walking comic relief. That said, most of his actions are trivial, like having nosebleeds and being overly chivalrous. And, apart from the pervert stuff, there's Sanji's sexist mentality, but this discussion is way more complicated and nuanced.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Btw, I should recall that the entire Strawhat crew and King Cobra have all peeped on women,
    Luffy only did it because Usopp was doing it, and Chopper only did it because they were. Left to their own devices neither of them have any interest.
    To support Viz hosting all Jump manga for FREE and day of release, Arlong Park will now support the official release.
    https://www.viz.com/shonenjump

    Official chapter discussions now start Sundays at Noon, EST.
    Please do not post threads when scan sites release their version, and just discuss those releases in the spoiler thread.

  20. #20
    Partly Sunny Syphin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Australia

    Default Re: Sanji & Yamato

    Hancock's bathroom scene when trying to use her powers on Luffy should express the level of interest Luffy has on peeping (and in the female form).

    Now, if there were a piece of meat in front of Luffy. Interest over 9000.

    I honestly think Sanji can respect Yamato's decision if they tell the crew to view them as a man. Sanji is a very passionate individual but he isn't disconnected from logic and relative reality. His heart and humanity are some of his strongest features.

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts