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Thread: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

  1. #81

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeorn View Post
    He's making Shinobu look worse and worse in my opinion. She saw and heard? everything that went down between Oden, Orochi, and the Kurozumis but didn't go to Oden or reveal her intention to change sides until the fated battle 5 years later? She could have been a double agent working for Orochi but then reporting to Oden but I guess that would have ruined Oda's story about Oden waiting around 5 years and not telling anyone anything like an idiot. I usually don't give Oda a hard time about stuff but unless he turns things around she seems pointless. There is no point in her being an ally that saw what happened and did nothing in 5 years. There is no point in her being the traitor as they only ever thought of her as an ally during the battle.

    The only thing that makes sense for her character at this point is that because Oden said she wasn't an ally and she was released is for her to use her ninja abilities combined with the fact she still works for the enemy to free everyone. If she doesn't she is completely pointless.
    I think it works fine. She saw what went there and that Oden chose to not fight back, but as soon as she heard he was going to take action against Orochi/Kaido she went to his side. There wasn't any reason for her to do the shift earlier since she knew Oden wasn't going to do anything anyways. And there was a point in she seeing the truth because that's what allowed her to know Oden was in the right, otherwise she would have never joined his side (be it 5 years before or when she actually did it).

    What doesn't fit in her case, something I pointed out on the spoiler thread, is that she was originally presented as Kin'emon's protegée/disciple, but now we know it couldn't fit in her timeline at any point (she was originally serving Sukiyaki, then moved to Orochi and only joined Oden's group 3 days before his execution, so there wasn't any point when she could be under Kin'emon's tutelage).

    To be fair, a lot of small details in this arc don't hold under scrutiny. Not necessarily creating plotholes, but at least inconsistensies in characterization. Like wasn't Kiku supposed to be unnashamedly on Kin'emon?
    Last edited by .access timeco.; February 3rd, 2020 at 12:28 PM.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    Like wasn't Kiku supposed to be unnashamedly on Kin'emon?
    Not sure what you mean, Kiku was just excited to see Kinemon again.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    If only the time traverlers knew about Raizo being hidden in Zou, (as implied by ch 820) and since Jack tryed to capture him there, the traitor should be one of the t-travelers.

    • Kin or Momo, tho possible, would be shocking... but...
    • Kiku is possible but weird given her sister was WB's pirates ally.
    • Raizo is possible.
    • Kanguro is the most suspicious guy to me. We don't know much about him.
    • Beyond the scabbars Jibuemon is also possible, but for the sake of the impact on the audience I guess Oda is making it one the scabbars.

    To me Dejiro is playing the counterspy role, and he will give somehow a surprise to Orochi and Kaido.

    And as for when the traitor was born, I guess it was during at the end of the last 5 years of watching his lord dancing and humiliating himself. Guess at some moment he couldn't stand it any longer.


  4. #84
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    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    When did Orochi say that he doesn't bow to Kaido? He's 100% Kaido's bitch, the only question is why he is allowed to have so much wiggle room.
    Well we both know that, but before this incredibly lengthy flashback, Orochi was (at least in one chapter's conclusion) bragging about how he's NOT Kaido's bitch, which Semimaru and that other member of the Kurozumi family probably helped put in his head that he's such hot shit that he's untouchable. He'll get a rude awakening for sure, but least of all for his hubris. It's just mainly to show how dumb he is in spite of his power and position, he's letting it all go to his head so he can't see reality. That, or he's got some contingency plan like maybe he's found the Uranus weapon and will use it if Kaido turns on him? That's the only thing I can think of if he's not just being beyond stupid and boastful. He might have just been lying to whomever he said it to, to make them think he wasn't afraid of Kaido, since posturing is really all he has. But being surrounded by guys who can potentially report back to Kaido, he'd better have something to back that up, or just be that ridiculously stupid, for him doing that to make 'sense'.

  5. #85
    Undercover Shipwright Zeorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Honestly the Wano arc is crumbling and somehow becoming less interesting as more details are revealed. Oden was a dick and he was only "good" because he was ridiculously strong and the son of the Shogun so he had the most freedom which is what One Piece is all about. His followers only seemed attracted to his strength but he didn't treat them well, abandoned them, and didn't tell them the truth.

    Of course he is probably going to stay behind and fight off everyone by himself while his allies escape which will lead to him being boiled alive and somehow rekindle the feeling that they need to honor his death by stopping Kaido and Orochi.
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  6. #86

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    There are three points I can recall and I think should be key to find out who the traitor is:

    - It is someone who knew beyond any doubt that Raizo made it to Zou.
    Jack knew as a matter of fact that Raizo made it there, he didn't have any doubt about it, he wasn't just guessing. Raizo left Wano together with Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke, stranded from them and went MIA as long as anyone was aware. The other three ended up on Dressrosa, the logical conclusion for anyone would be that Raizo was also there but hidden, there is no reason for anyone to think "well, if the entire group went adrift and ended on a random country, this can only mean the missing person made it to their final destination 100% guaranteed".
    Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke knew he didn't went to Dressrosa, but they couldn't know Raizo succeeded to Zou. Kiku knew the group went there, but she had no info regarding what happened after that. Even Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke couldn't be sure if Raizo succeeded in making there - they could only hope. Assuming Shinobu was already aware they came back, she would be as ignorant as Kiku regarding the group's fate after they sailed from Wano.
    The only ones who knew Raizo was in Zou are the minks and Raizo himself.

    - It is someone who only became aware of the new plans of the Alliance and of Hiyori's location after everyone came together to discuss those. Aside from the SH, this means anyone from the Alliance with the exception of Law and Nekomamushi since they are still ignorant about all that.

    - It is someone who was already in Wano 20 years ago.


    Assuming there isn't a 4th key scene I am forgetting, there are only two characters who would fit all those circumstances: Raizo and Inuarashi.
    The problem is, neither of them would make much sense. Why would Raizo give himself away instead of, you know, just not going to Zou? And Inuarashi not only seems beyond any doubt, he was actually the first one to notice there was something fishy going on and wonder about it.

    Other possibility is that we could be dealing with at least two traitors. Having both a traitor from Wano and someone from Zou would also cover every corner. But I think at this point it is more likely we'll just have to ignore some minor plotholes for the real traitor to fit.

  7. #87
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    There are three points I can recall and I think should be key to find out who the traitor is:

    - It is someone who knew beyond any doubt that Raizo made it to Zou.
    Jack knew as a matter of fact that Raizo made it there, he didn't have any doubt about it, he wasn't just guessing. Raizo left Wano together with Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke, stranded from them and went MIA as long as anyone was aware. The other three ended up on Dressrosa, the logical conclusion for anyone would be that Raizo was also there but hidden, there is no reason for anyone to think "well, if the entire group went adrift and ended on a random country, this can only mean the missing person made it to their final destination 100% guaranteed".
    Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke knew he didn't went to Dressrosa, but they couldn't know Raizo succeeded to Zou. Kiku knew the group went there, but she had no info regarding what happened after that. Even Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke couldn't be sure if Raizo succeeded in making there - they could only hope. Assuming Shinobu was already aware they came back, she would be as ignorant as Kiku regarding the group's fate after they sailed from Wano.
    The only ones who knew Raizo was in Zou are the minks and Raizo himself.

    - It is someone who only became aware of the new plans of the Alliance and of Hiyori's location after everyone came together to discuss those. Aside from the SH, this means anyone from the Alliance with the exception of Law and Nekomamushi since they are still ignorant about all that.

    - It is someone who was already in Wano 20 years ago.


    Assuming there isn't a 4th key scene I am forgetting, there are only two characters who would fit all those circumstances: Raizo and Inuarashi.
    The problem is, neither of them would make much sense. Why would Raizo give himself away instead of, you know, just not going to Zou? And Inuarashi not only seems beyond any doubt, he was actually the first one to notice there was something fishy going on and wonder about it.

    Other possibility is that we could be dealing with at least two traitors. Having both a traitor from Wano and someone from Zou would also cover every corner. But I think at this point it is more likely we'll just have to ignore some minor plotholes for the real traitor to fit.
    nah, based on Kin'emon's memories, they made it to Zunesha, but separated from Raizo right in the spot. so it wasn't much about being hopefully, they knew Raizo could climb the elephant and wait for them, which still makes Kanjuro a suspect.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    There are three points I can recall and I think should be key to find out who the traitor is:

    - It is someone who knew beyond any doubt that Raizo made it to Zou.
    Jack knew as a matter of fact that Raizo made it there, he didn't have any doubt about it, he wasn't just guessing. Raizo left Wano together with Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke, stranded from them and went MIA as long as anyone was aware. The other three ended up on Dressrosa, the logical conclusion for anyone would be that Raizo was also there but hidden, there is no reason for anyone to think "well, if the entire group went adrift and ended on a random country, this can only mean the missing person made it to their final destination 100% guaranteed".
    Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke knew he didn't went to Dressrosa, but they couldn't know Raizo succeeded to Zou. Kiku knew the group went there, but she had no info regarding what happened after that. Even Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke couldn't be sure if Raizo succeeded in making there - they could only hope. Assuming Shinobu was already aware they came back, she would be as ignorant as Kiku regarding the group's fate after they sailed from Wano.
    The only ones who knew Raizo was in Zou are the minks and Raizo himself.
    We don't know if Kin & co actually watched Raizo landing on Zunisha or not. All of them were too close at the critical moment:

    Spoiler:


    Also, I'm assuming the 4 time travelers could have den den mushis to communicate each other. (So that even Kiku could have been told about Raizo being in Zou). Is that wrong?


  9. #89

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    nah, based on Kin'emon's memories, they made it to Zunesha, but separated from Raizo right in the spot. so it wasn't much about being hopefully, they knew Raizo could climb the elephant and wait for them, which still makes Kanjuro a suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ukimix View Post
    We don't know if Kin & co actually watched Raizo landing on Zunisha or not. All of them were to close at the critical moment:
    I completely failed to notice Zunesha in that panel.

    Well, this changes everything, specially because I just noticed Kin'emon also says they were spotted and chased by the Beast Pirates, so maybe there wasn't anything weird with the BP knowing about it because they might have just seen it as well?

  10. #90

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    I completely failed to notice Zunesha in that panel.

    Well, this changes everything, specially because I just noticed Kin'emon also says they were spotted and chased by the Beast Pirates, so maybe there wasn't anything weird with the BP knowing about it because they might have just seen it as well?
    Yeap. No way to sure about what happened there


  11. #91

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    There are three points I can recall and I think should be key to find out who the traitor is:

    - It is someone who knew beyond any doubt that Raizo made it to Zou.
    Jack knew as a matter of fact that Raizo made it there, he didn't have any doubt about it, he wasn't just guessing. Raizo left Wano together with Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke, stranded from them and went MIA as long as anyone was aware. The other three ended up on Dressrosa, the logical conclusion for anyone would be that Raizo was also there but hidden, there is no reason for anyone to think "well, if the entire group went adrift and ended on a random country, this can only mean the missing person made it to their final destination 100% guaranteed".
    Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke knew he didn't went to Dressrosa, but they couldn't know Raizo succeeded to Zou. Kiku knew the group went there, but she had no info regarding what happened after that. Even Kanjuro, Kin'emon and Momonosuke couldn't be sure if Raizo succeeded in making there - they could only hope. Assuming Shinobu was already aware they came back, she would be as ignorant as Kiku regarding the group's fate after they sailed from Wano.
    The only ones who knew Raizo was in Zou are the minks and Raizo himself.

    - It is someone who only became aware of the new plans of the Alliance and of Hiyori's location after everyone came together to discuss those. Aside from the SH, this means anyone from the Alliance with the exception of Law and Nekomamushi since they are still ignorant about all that.

    - It is someone who was already in Wano 20 years ago.


    Assuming there isn't a 4th key scene I am forgetting, there are only two characters who would fit all those circumstances: Raizo and Inuarashi.
    The problem is, neither of them would make much sense. Why would Raizo give himself away instead of, you know, just not going to Zou? And Inuarashi not only seems beyond any doubt, he was actually the first one to notice there was something fishy going on and wonder about it.

    Other possibility is that we could be dealing with at least two traitors. Having both a traitor from Wano and someone from Zou would also cover every corner. But I think at this point it is more likely we'll just have to ignore some minor plotholes for the real traitor to fit.
    1. Kanjiro was there 20 years ago
    2. Kanjiro is never seen fighting much or at all
    3. Multiple times his fighting is portrayed wacky partially harmful to his allies. Like the thing with the NET in Dressrosa, where Usopp mentions people can just climb it and so on...
    4. He is present in all the pannels where secret plans are revealed, so he is shown definitely knowing about them
    5. He is making "strange" remarks when Law or Shinobu are speaking stuff
    6. He "turned" himself in so that Kinemon and Momo could escape....in Dressrosa and acted strange when they first met again (salad comments and what not) He is perfectly unharmed as well...
    7. He has a perfect devil fruit for informant which enables him to create birds or whatever to transfer info
    8. And so on...

    Goofy user of the powers, who soon will reveal can draw extremely well and is a lot more dangerous than it looks like, not the first time it went exactly that path in shounen Keyser Soze style (limping first...walking normally in the end)
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  12. #92

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Legend is something people tell to other people not witnessing it so it couldn't be the hour of legend, because no people are there.
    Oda is famous for teasing his fans.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Recently, we've had Doffy and and Law flashbacks for Dressrosa, the Curly Brow Pirates and Jack attack flashbacks for Zou, and Sanji and BM flashbacks for WCI arc. Now that Oden's flashback is close to ending, I can see Kaido's flashback later on that expounds on how he got to Wano, partnered with Orochi, what he owes to Linlin and possibly more on his days in the Rocks crew

  14. #94
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Im curious at how Inu and Neko escaped the second time they got caught. With Shinobu around, she probably help them and that's another reason why they trust her so much.

    Ashura and Denjiro stood at some spot to fight with Kaido, so that also explains why weren't they present with Toki in the castle.

  15. #95
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by kirei_lanford View Post
    Legend is something people tell to other people not witnessing it so it couldn't be the hour of legend, because no people are there.
    Oda is famous for teasing his fans.
    Big tease that one. One would think Oden wounding Kaido would be an epic display, but it's just a couple of uninspiring panels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-san View Post
    1. Kanjiro was there 20 years ago
    2. Kanjiro is never seen fighting much or at all
    3. Multiple times his fighting is portrayed wacky partially harmful to his allies. Like the thing with the NET in Dressrosa, where Usopp mentions people can just climb it and so on...
    4. He is present in all the pannels where secret plans are revealed, so he is shown definitely knowing about them
    5. He is making "strange" remarks when Law or Shinobu are speaking stuff
    6. He "turned" himself in so that Kinemon and Momo could escape....in Dressrosa and acted strange when they first met again (salad comments and what not) He is perfectly unharmed as well...
    7. He has a perfect devil fruit for informant which enables him to create birds or whatever to transfer info
    8. And so on...

    Goofy user of the powers, who soon will reveal can draw extremely well and is a lot more dangerous than it looks like, not the first time it went exactly that path in shounen Keyser Soze style (limping first...walking normally in the end)
    And he created a dragon to climb Zou, throwing in Kinemon's face their defeat and Momo's shame.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by RigaCrypto View Post
    There must be an explanation for why she choose 20 years. I mean Wano could've been a total wasteland in 20 if Kaido moved faster then he did. She somehow had to know the SH will arrive there together with Inu and Neko and she must've known that the others (Kawamatsu, Tengu, etc) didn't die. Otherwise, she could've sent them back when Ace returned to Wano to bring Whitebeard there and KO Kaido and Orochi with no sweat.
    20 Years is a Generation, Rodger did explicitly state that he wished for his Son to be the next Pirate King. I presume 20 years was her trying to plop Kinemon and others into a general time where Ace would be hitting his stride as A Pirate.

  18. #98
    Mangaspoiler Emigrant RigaCrypto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    Quote Originally Posted by ryuplaneswalker View Post
    20 Years is a Generation, Rodger did explicitly state that he wished for his Son to be the next Pirate King. I presume 20 years was her trying to plop Kinemon and others into a general time where Ace would be hitting his stride as A Pirate.
    That seems too random for me. I await an explanation for how Toki's powers work because I bet there is more to it then just travel in the future for X time. Either she can get glimpses of a person's future/fate or she can see bits of the general future. She had to also saw her meeting with Oden, otherwise it is one in a million chances that she met the first person to leave Wano in years on a deserted island randomly.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    At this point it just feels like we're rushing as fast as possible towards something yet unseen but that Oda cares about much, much more than anything Wa has left to tell. Oden was a complete joke of a charachter, especially if you consider how much weight was put on his role in the overarching plot, to the point he's basically the cornerstone of the whole story. But then you meet him and you discover he's just that, a plot device.

    Money's on Kanjuro the traitor by the way. Raizo is the second choice but making the ninja a spy is somehow lame if you are going for the big shock. Also, the hag turning into Momo should mean she touched his face at some point, maybe it was just her being a spy. But that would be super lame.

    Also, on a side note, it was made such a big deal of Oden's determination to open Wa's borders and Orochi's propaganda going against that, but when could he actually establish this policy of his and make it a state affair? To the people of Wa he was first a disowned heir, then a minor lord, then a runaway pirate for many years, then a clown, finally a stew. Till now it looks like it was mostly Orochi being concerned with that.
    Curiosity has its own reason for existing

  20. #100

    Default Re: Chapter 970: Oden Vs Kaido

    At this point, I won't even be surprise if someone from Kaido/Orochi Team have the Giro Giro Fruit.
    But it wouldn't have the same effect as the traitor(s) revelation.

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