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Thread: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

  1. #261

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Still to this day i think Im is the single worst decision in OP. Or maybe not Im in itself, which i suppose could've been fine, but rather that it took decades to even hint at it's existance and the effect suddenly throwing it into the endgame has had on the world building up to then.
    We probably have like a decade left of this series so it's at least not as bad as rabbit lady in Naruto

  2. #262

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    She showed up from june and they ran til february next year from what i could gleam from a quick wiki. But either way their Im is clearly worse than our so it is a point of no real value and odds are i'm wrong either way.
    She's set up in chapter 678, shows up in 679, and is beaten in 691. Just the final volume pretty much.

    SHe maybe got mentioned a little earlier than that as part of the lore, but she wasn't the final badguy actively doing anything until the last minute when they'd already been running through two other final badguys for about four years.

    She actually was pretty much brought in to beat the previous final badguy because Kishi had written himself into a corner and couldn't figure out how to beat that character.
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  3. #263

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Also have to consider that Sasuke was the final antagonist, but she holds almost as much weight. Goes back to the question of who's the real antagonist. Im, Teach, or someone else?

  4. #264

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    The Gorosei were obviously beholden to a secret since the Ohara flashback.

    We asumed that the secret was just the same one as the blank century, turns out it is a conehead in the throne room, who keeps frozen strawhats, and enjoys doing cutouts of pictures.
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  5. #265
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Still to this day i think Im is the single worst decision in OP. Or maybe not Im in itself, which i suppose could've been fine, but rather that it took decades to even hint at it's existance and the effect suddenly throwing it into the endgame has had on the world building up to then.
    I second this. There are decisions I like less but they aren't nearly as important.

    I would say they went from a real government to a classic shadowy figure that was behind it all along. And that this switch wasn't hinted made it sting more.
    Last edited by desa; September 22nd, 2019 at 03:20 PM.



  6. #266

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Honestly, the complaints about Im based on an invented "schedule rule" for introducing characters are lacking critical thinking, imo.

    Im-sama is not a figure that came to change the game, it is actually not really a big twist. He/she just embodies the summit of the World Goverment and stands for everything that that organization always stood for in the series, and they exist since the beginning of the story. Instead of thinking "omg! a new villain that came out of nowhere", what should be seen is that we're finally getting deeper into the inner workings of the WG, and this revelation was very timely.

    The narrative is pretty much the same, the conflict is the same, the moral of the story is the same. That's what matters.

  7. #267

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    Honestly, the complaints about Im based on an invented "schedule rule" for introducing characters are lacking critical thinking, imo.

    Im-sama is not a figure that came to change the game, it is actually not really a big twist. He/she just embodies the summit of the World Goverment and stands for everything that that organization always stood for in the series, and they exist since the beginning of the story. Instead of thinking "omg! a new villain that came out of nowhere", what should be seen is that we're finally getting deeper into the inner workings of the WG, and this revelation was very timely.

    The narrative is pretty much the same, the conflict is the same, the moral of the story is the same. That's what matters.
    The issue this paints a VERY specific target. Now there's exactly one big bad that needs to be punched out and then they can say "that one guy was responsible for all the bad stuff, now everything can change overnight!" rather than the moral subtle split of "most marines are fighting for good but there's different sets of ideals and the world is a bit more grey in what they'll do to protect bigger things."

    Five guys deciding to destroy an island. (and some of that being admiral inititiative) to protect the world from rediscovering ancient weapons? Grey area.

    One guy pointing at a list and saying "kill that because I secretly rule the world from the shadows"? Less so.

    Guys like Spandam getting into high ranks despite not deserving it? Flaws in the system. Someone like SMoker or Fujitora wanting to save people more than they want to save the government's image? Bright spots in a system. The ideals of pirates being free versus the order of the government, and the great variety of pirate ideals inbetween? Grey area. Shadowy figure controllign everything thats a secret no one knows about? Bleh.
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  8. #268
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    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    At this point this paints absolutely nothing though. It was a ridiculous chapter that raised more questions than anything, and I don't quite understand why it could ruin people's expectations. Unless you all know more than I do (which might very well be the case).
    Because all I took from the chapter was that the Gorosei decided that a sacrifice needed to be made, and that Imu is going to decide who's going to be sacrificed. Like some sort of oracle.
    Maybe Imu is indeed the ruler of the world, simply because she sat on the throne no one is supposed to sit on. But maybe that story was bullshit to begin with to keep the kings of the world in check, and Imu just underlines that by not giving a damn.
    Maybe there is a religious component to the World Government. Similiar to various oppressive regimes in the real world, where you have a ruling class and a religious caste influencing politics.

    But whatever the case, it's weird to me to be disappointed *at this point in time*. Yes, Imu being the Rabbit Lady Boss of One Piece would be lame for the reasons noted, but we aren't even at that point.


  9. #269

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Is it late and are they the final antagonist? If you can't answer those questions with confirmation from the story, there's no foul.

    There is a weird feeling about Im not being hinted enough for me tho. I feel like we're at the 60-65% mark, so it has nothing to do with being late. Just that this character obviously holds weight and there was nothing for me to remember and say they were hinted enough before introduction.

  10. #270

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The issue this paints a VERY specific target. Now there's exactly one big bad that needs to be punched out and then they can say "that one guy was responsible for all the bad stuff, now everything can change overnight!" rather than the moral subtle split of "most marines are fighting for good but there's different sets of ideals and the world is a bit more grey in what they'll do to protect bigger things."

    Five guys deciding to destroy an island. (and some of that being admiral inititiative) to protect the world from rediscovering ancient weapons? Grey area.

    One guy pointing at a list and saying "kill that because I secretly rule the world from the shadows"? Less so.

    Guys like Spandam getting into high ranks despite not deserving it? Flaws in the system. Someone like SMoker or Fujitora wanting to save people more than they want to save the government's image? Bright spots in a system. The ideals of pirates being free versus the order of the government, and the great variety of pirate ideals inbetween? Grey area. Shadowy figure controllign everything thats a secret no one knows about? Bleh.
    I don't get why or how Im-sama provokes all the effects you are suggesting. The only truth is that Im-sama will serve the purpose of taking a beating from Luffy (presumably) in order for the shonen action to materialize. Apart from that, I don't see all this simplification taking place in an ethical or narrative sense.

    First of all, whatever revolution will take place to overthrone the current WG will happen in the exact same way that it would happen if Im-sama did not exist. So I can't understand the argument that "now everything can change overnight", at least not in any different way from how it would happen otherwise. That is because the corruption of the WG is spread throughout its system and that's the overarching evil, be it because of the Tenryuubito, be it because of some policies, be it because of its history, be it because of the ethical illegitimacy of a dictatorship. There is not much difference between Im and the Gorousei as conceptual dictators, as a matter of fact. The guy/girl is a shadowy figure that lives in secret from the world, yes, but he is a realistic personification of the rule of the Tenryuubito over the world, something that has been communicated in the story for years.

    As I said before, the WG is still pretty much the same: a disguised dictatorship that everybody knows is a dictatorship, even if they also stand for good things like worldwide order and safety against criminals. Im-sama doesn't change that. Whatever "grey area" that anyone can point out is true to this world before or after his/her revelation. Furthermore, the marines still stand for their own sense justice regardless of the existence of Im, both individually and collectively. The good people in the government still do good.

    What makes the WG terrible despite its good side is not the existence of Im-sama all of a sudden. The entire story of One Piece has constantly provided examples of the corruption and abuse of power of this particular organization for self-preservation and wealth. It's not only a matter of eventual accidents or random corrupt officials like Spandam that spoils the system, but rather the main issues comes from the heart of the system itself (much before Im and the plans for a "cleansing").

    Isn't it true that the WG is a system that puts its founders and Mary Geoise above the rest of the world and then rules for its own interests? Doesn't the Tenryuubito do whatever they want beyond any human rights? Doesn't the government practices extorsive taxation that impoverishes weaker countries? Doesn't the WG imposes censorship over history to hide their own dirt? Isn't the WG dealing with the underworld for centuries and profitting from scandalous events (like Flevance)? Didn't the government practice discrimination against minorities for centuries since its foundation?

    The WG is a textbook dictatorship in which corruption and injustice comes naturally, because it doesn't have internal mechanisms that restrict the abuse of power as taught to us by philosophers like Montesquieu. As a matter of fact, it is a system that acts for the benefit of the people on the top and prey on the people who are in the bottom. Why is that is beyond a simple answer, but the justification and causes certainly goes beyond Im-sama.

  11. #271
    Discovered Stowaway The D.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Holy shark, do people actually genuinely believe Sabo is dead?
    Gonna give ya the D.!

  12. #272

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    I don't get why or how Im-sama provokes all the effects you are suggesting. The only truth is that Im-sama will serve the purpose of taking a beating from Luffy (presumably) in order for the shonen action to materialize.
    Aikanu already served that role, as embodiment of everything wrong with the current world, AND the guy that killed Luffy's brother.

    First of all, whatever revolution will take place to overthrone the current WG will happen in the exact same way that it would happen if Im-sama did not exist.
    Nope. Now there's a single clear specific target responsible for everything. Its his fault things are the way they are, and flaws in the system can be taken out by taking him out. Once he's removed, all the naturally good people will then be able to do it right.

    It's not a clash of differing ideals anymore, or covering up a history to hide a greater awful truth... its just a generic shadow badguy manipulating things now.

    Prior, fixing and changing the system would have involved everyone against everyone, one marine ideal versus another. With a symbolic target or two to deal with but not actual literal single sources of evil.

    It's just a lot more generic and simplified now.

    It's not only a matter of eventual accidents or random corrupt officials like Spandam that spoils the system, but rather the main issues comes from the heart of the system itself
    Yes. An now the heart of th corruption has a face and a name. It's not a flawed ideal or plain human nature now. Its a singular entity responsible for it all. Nd that sucks.


    I mean, it could still turn out he's an absolute nothing and Blackbeard just one shots him along the way but...
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  13. #273
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    I recall years ago being mocked for suggesting there was a possibility the World Nobles had a World King. :P

  14. #274

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Nope. Now there's a single clear specific target responsible for everything. Its his fault things are the way they are, and flaws in the system can be taken out by taking him out. Once he's removed, all the naturally good people will then be able to do it right.
    You are just forcing everything into him to the point that it doesn't make sense with the years of story that was told. The entire system was painted as the Tenryuubito playground between other levels of corruption, and now you say that Im-sama is the rotten apple that solves the problem when cut out. Nah.

    The WG had to be destroyed with or without him, because that government is essentially problematic since foundation and have a degenerated nobility at the top that is not restrained.

    It's not a clash of differing ideals anymore, or covering up a history to hide a greater awful truth... its just a generic shadow badguy manipulating things now.

    Prior, fixing and changing the system would have involved everyone against everyone, one marine ideal versus another. With a symbolic target or two to deal with but not actual literal single sources of evil.

    It's just a lot more generic and simplified now.
    Of course it is a clash of ideals, lol. As a matter of fact, it is the same clash of ideals. Im-sama represents everything that Mary Geoise and the Tenryuubito always represented.

    You talk of the WG only from the angle of the Marines, as if the Tenryuubitos/Gorousei were never part of your equation for the ideological conflict of the narrative, but they are at the core of the whole thing.

    The other players under the umbrella of the government that have different ideals, especially the marines, will still have to make their own statement of justice and make their moves, painting a complete picture with many shades of the colors of the rainbow.

    Yes. An now the heart of th corruption has a face and a name. It's not a flawed ideal or plain human nature now. Its a singular entity responsible for it all. Nd that sucks.
    Once again, nonsensical reducionism of Im-sama like an edgylord unrelated to the essential structure of the WG, as if the Gorousei weren't playing this role of overlords already. Not to mention the complete disregard to the political ideas that are at the forefront of this conflict, which are very much part of human history.

  15. #275

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    YEs, because when you have ONE figure behind everything, instead of dozens, that simplifies things. It provides a single shonen punching bag to take out and makes the rest overall irrelevant.

    That he's there at all points towards the story not dealing with quite all the complex stuff it had before and just... having that. When he falls all the other bad stuff falls right after.


    And yes for the purpose of discussion I'm simplifying it to Marines because they've been the firepower branch of the series. The Tenryubiito have to be stopped ovbviously, but the big marines are the ones serving as their bodyguards, they're the ones that will have to actually be beaten in a shonen throwdown/uprising.
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  16. #276

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    I don't get why or how Im-sama provokes all the effects you are suggesting. The only truth is that Im-sama will serve the purpose of taking a beating from Luffy (presumably) in order for the shonen action to materialize. Apart from that, I don't see all this simplification taking place in an ethical or narrative sense.

    First of all, whatever revolution will take place to overthrone the current WG will happen in the exact same way that it would happen if Im-sama did not exist. So I can't understand the argument that "now everything can change overnight", at least not in any different way from how it would happen otherwise. That is because the corruption of the WG is spread throughout its system and that's the overarching evil, be it because of the Tenryuubito, be it because of some policies, be it because of its history, be it because of the ethical illegitimacy of a dictatorship. There is not much difference between Im and the Gorousei as conceptual dictators, as a matter of fact. The guy/girl is a shadowy figure that lives in secret from the world, yes, but he is a realistic personification of the rule of the Tenryuubito over the world, something that has been communicated in the story for years.

    As I said before, the WG is still pretty much the same: a disguised dictatorship that everybody knows is a dictatorship, even if they also stand for good things like worldwide order and safety against criminals. Im-sama doesn't change that. Whatever "grey area" that anyone can point out is true to this world before or after his/her revelation. Furthermore, the marines still stand for their own sense justice regardless of the existence of Im, both individually and collectively. The good people in the government still do good.

    What makes the WG terrible despite its good side is not the existence of Im-sama all of a sudden. The entire story of One Piece has constantly provided examples of the corruption and abuse of power of this particular organization for self-preservation and wealth. It's not only a matter of eventual accidents or random corrupt officials like Spandam that spoils the system, but rather the main issues comes from the heart of the system itself (much before Im and the plans for a "cleansing").

    Isn't it true that the WG is a system that puts its founders and Mary Geoise above the rest of the world and then rules for its own interests? Doesn't the Tenryuubito do whatever they want beyond any human rights? Doesn't the government practices extorsive taxation that impoverishes weaker countries? Doesn't the WG imposes censorship over history to hide their own dirt? Isn't the WG dealing with the underworld for centuries and profitting from scandalous events (like Flevance)? Didn't the government practice discrimination against minorities for centuries since its foundation?

    The WG is a textbook dictatorship in which corruption and injustice comes naturally, because it doesn't have internal mechanisms that restrict the abuse of power as taught to us by philosophers like Montesquieu. As a matter of fact, it is a system that acts for the benefit of the people on the top and prey on the people who are in the bottom. Why is that is beyond a simple answer, but the justification and causes certainly goes beyond Im-sama.
    Right on! Pretty much how I feel and better said than I ever could.
    Folks who read One Piece... Just better people. \_(ツ)_/

  17. #277

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    I also think the purpose of Im is to be a representation of everything wrong with the world government whose defeat can symbolize the fixing of all evil in the world.

    That said, that's how it was always going to be. If not Im, it would have been the Gorosei, or Akainu taking over, or Teach going full apocalyse or whatever. One Piece is not about subtle moral complexities. Sure, there are good and bad apples on every side, but at the end of the day, most characters are either a good guy or a bad guy at heart(or starts bad but become good) and basically all problems in every arc get solved by beating one bad guy. What made anyone think it'd be different this time? Specially with Oda going out of his way to show off how awful the WG is in many occasions.

  18. #278
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    I'm more interested in what Im's goal is. What's the purpose of all this. Stands to reason Gorosei make most of the decisions, with Im giving general orders to follow, giving them a lot of leeway while doing it. In that sense Im may act more as an Oracle of sorts and less as an active general on the battlefield.

    But how does he/she know who needs to be taken care of. Some predictive devil fruit ability that allows him to see the course of future events and how they changed when elements are removed from equation? Some ultra form of VOAT, Conqueror or Observation, due to living an insanely long life and achieving enlightenment? They're just really smart and don't do much else but read reports?

    Are they a D? :O
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    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  19. #279

    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    To my eyes hints were dropped along all those decades that hinted at some dose of conflict to the WG is pure evil narrative. Like the elder star putting on that pained expression as he ordered the attack, or Rayleigh hinting that there was something more complex to the secret than evil overlord rules from the shadows. This contrast betwenn the horrible actions of the WG and the conflicting portrayal of their rulers was all we knew for like 700 chapters. To me the narrative has changed and been simplified in much in the same way as Robby described, and you can of course say this was always meant to be this way and you just whine about your head canon and all that good stuff, but i don't feel any less betrayed by coming in on George Bushs first term and been given the run around on the ass end of Trumps.

  20. #280
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 956: BIG NEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengokusgoat View Post
    I also think the purpose of Im is to be a representation of everything wrong with the world government whose defeat can symbolize the fixing of all evil in the world.

    That said, that's how it was always going to be. If not Im, it would have been the Gorosei, or Akainu taking over, or Teach going full apocalyse or whatever. One Piece is not about subtle moral complexities. Sure, there are good and bad apples on every side, but at the end of the day, most characters are either a good guy or a bad guy at heart(or starts bad but become good) and basically all problems in every arc get solved by beating one bad guy. What made anyone think it'd be different this time? Specially with Oda going out of his way to show off how awful the WG is in many occasions.
    The difference is that the Gorosei and Akainu are properly set up. Also they both are presented as part of a system. And they also both are presented as people that think they are doing good but whose method makes them bad/evil. They were reflection of a bad system whereas with IM it is very much the system is bad because that guy is bad.

    But even if you think that ultimately Im doesn't change anything to it. There's still the very problem that there was no proper set up to a pretty major villaineous figure and one that changes the geopolitics of the OP world. I think poor execution on that front can still be faulted.



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