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Thread: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

  1. #81

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Retro View Post
    So you had no complaints with this whatsoever I take it?
    I had no issues with He-Man being taken off the board, no.

    He's a walking dues ex machina and there's zero drama once he's around. You have to remove him in order for the other characters to do anything, this is pretty normal for overpowered protagonists, from Superman to Goku to Saitama to Luffy.

    I had plenty of issues with the actual show. The pacing was iffy, as if it were a 13 episode season compressed down to 5, it introduced characters out of nowhere, and it was overly dependant on viewers already having a relationship with the characters to care about them.

    The entire Orco thing for instance was completely unearned if you don't already have 38 years of attachment to him.

    The show certainly had problems. "It focused on Teela! Arrrgh SJW!" was not one of them.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I've never really understood the complaint about review bombing.
    If a large number of people dislike something and want their opinions heard on that... isn't that what sites like RottenTomatoes are for?
    1. Most of those people haven't actually *watched* it, they're complaining sight unseen and so don't actually have an opinion of their own. So also Ghostbuster 2016, Last Jedi, She-Ra, Last of Us 2... note the trend of female lead protagonists ALWAYS being the stuff that gets bombed.

    Remember the *death threats* the actresses got? I'm not even going to clarify which property I'm referring to.

    2. Rotten Tomatoes in particular has a pass-fail metric so negative reviews affect its scoring far more than middling ones. (And postiive review bombs work the same way, like with Zack Snyder's rabid fanbase.) Metacritic is a little better, but a random 0 among 8's and 9's will still tank a rating. (See also Amazon reviews where people complain about the *shipping* rather than the product)

    And they DID add features to prevent sight unseen review bombing. They had e-mail checks, and they started putting in a two day wait period after something comes out, after Last of Us 2 got bombed. It doesn't help much though, assholes beta males will still be assholes and those are easy to get around.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by andre
    Last of Us 2 I don't think were review bombed
    It had negative reviews within minutes of the game releasing. Literally no one besides reviewers had actually played it at that point.

    Game came away with nothing but glowing reviews from critics and multiple game of the year rewards. THose that actually played it rather than going off a synopsis seemed to enjoy it.

    I have not played it as I just can't deal with zombies. Watched the first one be played though.
    Last edited by Robby; August 3rd, 2021 at 06:49 PM.
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  2. #82
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    It had negative reviews within minutes of the game releasing. Literally no one besides reviewers had actually played it at that point.

    Game came away with nothing but glowing reviews from critics and multiple game of the year rewards. THose that actually played it rather than going off a synopsis seemed to enjoy it.

    I have not played it as I just can't deal with zombies. Watched the first one be played though.
    The whole game had leaked before it released. People were reacting to the story. I know lots of people who liked it and lots of people who didn't because it made an extremely polarizing storytelling decision.
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  3. #83

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    1. Most of those people haven't actually *watched* it, they're complaining sight unseen and so don't actually have an opinion of their own. So also Ghostbuster 2016, Last Jedi, She-Ra, Last of Us 2... note the trend of female lead protagonists ALWAYS being the stuff that gets bombed.

    Remember the *death threats* the actresses got? I'm not even going to clarify which property I'm referring to.

    2. Rotten Tomatoes in particular has a pass-fail metric so negative reviews affect its scoring far more than middling ones. (And postiive review bombs work the same way, like with Zack Snyder's rabid fanbase.) Metacritic is a little better, but a random 0 among 8's and 9's will still tank a rating. (See also Amazon reviews where people complain about the *shipping* rather than the product)

    And they DID add features to prevent sight unseen review bombing. They had e-mail checks, and they started putting in a two day wait period after something comes out, after Last of Us 2 got bombed. It doesn't help much though, assholes beta males will still be assholes and those are easy to get around.
    I had a whole thing written out but it got deleted.

    Basically...
    1.) There's no easy way to tell which negative reviews are by people who've seen the movie/show/game and which haven't. Because of that it's kind of pointless to get upset when a crowd of people downvote something.
    Reviews were never sacred to begin with, companies have always exercised undue influence to increase review scores (or sometimes to smear the competition).

    2.) Yes, it's always horrible when some uncaring jerk makes death threats, and even worse when people get doxxed or harassed in real life. It's also not really related to the topic of review bombing.

    A bunch of bad reviews is not cancel culture.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    The whole game had leaked before it released. People were reacting to the story. I know lots of people who liked it and lots of people who didn't because it made an extremely polarizing storytelling decision.
    Execution is everything though. How many times have people made a turnaround on an OP chapter between reading a pithy brief text summary, and seeing the actual chapter? And with a game you have the whole aspect of interactivity, which informs the story and overall experience especially in a game like TLOU2 where putting you in the shoes of things that make you uncomfortable is the entire point. And then theres the issue of whether one polarizing storytelling decision can override literally everything else about a product - theres plenty of movies I ultimately like that have huge, nasty flaws or poor decisions, but are carried by the acting, the cinematography, the production design, the score, the scenes that DO work etc

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    I had a whole thing written out but it got deleted.

    Basically...
    1.) There's no easy way to tell which negative reviews are by people who've seen the movie/show/game and which haven't. Because of that it's kind of pointless to get upset when a crowd of people downvote something.
    Reviews were never sacred to begin with, companies have always exercised undue influence to increase review scores (or sometimes to smear the competition).
    The whole "dogpiling seconds after release" aspect of Reviewbombing is a pretty strong suggestion that the people who partake have had their negative take ready to go for quite a while. And the thing about the Bombing is, its not merely generally negative reviews, its about dragging the score down as far as absolutely possible, its about 1 and 0/10s. Its scores communicating "there is literally not a single redeemable thing in this production, not the animation, the art direction, the voice acting, the pacing, the action NOTHING", which, come on, are ludicrous. Even if one doesn't like the show, which is fair, theres a baseline quality to the production to be considered. Unless you just have an axe to grind about a single plot decision which overrides everything else
    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    2.) Yes, it's always horrible when some uncaring jerk makes death threats, and even worse when people get doxxed or harassed in real life. It's also not really related to the topic of review bombing.
    The Venn Diagram of movies/shows being reviewbombed for "SJW" reasons and movies/shows with leads getting death threats is pretty much a circle.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    The whole game had leaked before it released. People were reacting to the story. I know lots of people who liked it and lots of people who didn't because it made an extremely polarizing storytelling decision.
    I must say, it really shows how much people's views on Video Games changed when how you view them as a storytelling medium affects your perspective of it other than the gameplay.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    I was going to reply, but Daz pretty much covered it.
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  7. #87
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Execution is everything though. How many times have people made a turnaround on an OP chapter between reading a pithy brief text summary, and seeing the actual chapter? And with a game you have the whole aspect of interactivity, which informs the story and overall experience especially in a game like TLOU2 where putting you in the shoes of things that make you uncomfortable is the entire point. And then theres the issue of whether one polarizing storytelling decision can override literally everything else about a product - theres plenty of movies I ultimately like that have huge, nasty flaws or poor decisions, but are carried by the acting, the cinematography, the production design, the score, the scenes that DO work etc
    If your point is that a TLOU2 shouldn't get zeros because a single polarizing story decision doesn't outweigh everything it gets right, I can agree with you, but the principal of the zeros isn't that the game as no merit. Review Bombing is calculated (though the repeated strategy has made any effect wear off) to bring a score down as a message to developers. Whether it works or not is certainly up in the air, but I don't think the zeros have ever meant "this piece of media is worthless" for most people who do the review bombing.

    As you may have noticed, the post that Robby replied to is deleted. I didn't do this after Robby replied, but probably thirty seconds after I posted it. I don't remember everything I said, but I think the gist of it is that the kind of reviewing from TLOU2 and TLJ was different than the reviewbombing of Ghostbusters and She-Ra. I made a point that TLOU2 might have been reviewed even worse if the plot hadn't of leaked because people might have been even angrier in their surprise. I think most people knew going in that they would be playing primarily as Ellie and that Joel wouldn't be playable. To your point, that [plot twist and what it meant] was the point of the game, but it didn't resonate with everyone and made a lot of people angry, even those who played it. (I pointed that out referencing my girlfriend playing it blindly in the post replying to Robby. She hated it and regretted buying it after beating the game)

    I guess what I'm trying to say is more synchronous with what Roboblue said here:

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue
    I've never really understood the complaint about review bombing.
    If a large number of people dislike something and want their opinions heard on that... isn't that what sites like RottenTomatoes are for?

    If it's really just one guy sending in a million votes why haven't they fixed that yet?

    It just feels like a way for big companies to pass the buck when their product isn't received as well as they'd like.
    If the review bombing is because women, then it's all from misogyny and anti-sjw culture, which is awful shit. I just don't think that was at the ROOT of the criticism of TLOU2 or TLJ. People were hyped for both of those games even though they knew they had female leads. They just both disappointed people, for different reasons and in different contexts. I think I also said that both of them were ultimately used as bait and ammo for youtubers. So they did quickly become entrenched in misogynistic youtuber culture war drama, but I don't think that was at the root of the original backlash. I think in particular a lot of those channels were able to exist because The Last Jedi was so polarizing. (In particular, if you go back through Nerdrotic's channel you can see a dramatic shift in content towards negativity, and with it, an equally dramatic shift in viewership)
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  8. #88
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    If your point is that a TLOU2 shouldn't get zeros because a single polarizing story decision doesn't outweigh everything it gets right, I can agree with you, but the principal of the zeros isn't that the game as no merit. Review Bombing is calculated (though the repeated strategy has made any effect wear off) to bring a score down as a message to developers. Whether it works or not is certainly up in the air, but I don't think the zeros have ever meant "this piece of media is worthless" for most people who do the review bombing.
    I mean, we got Rise of Skywalker, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    As you may have noticed, the post that Robby replied to is deleted. I didn't do this after Robby replied, but probably thirty seconds after I posted it. I don't remember everything I said, but I think the gist of it is that the kind of reviewing from TLOU2 and TLJ was different than the reviewbombing of Ghostbusters and She-Ra. I made a point that TLOU2 might have been reviewed even worse if the plot hadn't of leaked because people might have been even angrier in their surprise. I think most people knew going in that they would be playing primarily as Ellie and that Joel wouldn't be playable. To your point, that [plot twist and what it meant] was the point of the game, but it didn't resonate with everyone and made a lot of people angry, even those who played it. (I pointed that out referencing my girlfriend playing it blindly in the post replying to Robby. She hated it and regretted buying it after beating the game)


    If the review bombing is because women, then it's all from misogyny and anti-sjw culture, which is awful shit. I just don't think that was at the ROOT of the criticism of TLOU2 or TLJ. People were hyped for both of those games even though they knew they had female leads. They just both disappointed people, for different reasons and in different contexts. I think I also said that both of them were ultimately used as bait and ammo for youtubers. So they did quickly become entrenched in misogynistic youtuber culture war drama, but I don't think that was at the root of the original backlash. I think in particular a lot of those channels were able to exist because The Last Jedi was so polarizing. (In particular, if you go back through Nerdrotic's channel you can see a dramatic shift in content towards negativity, and with it, an equally dramatic shift in viewership)
    Idunno about trying to seperate TLOU, and TLJ (and I guess Masters of the Universe) from the rest of the trend, when a common throughline is anger at a percieved lack of reverence for highly idealized version of the male leads; The criticisms of "How DARE they treat Luke/Joel/ He Man that way!" never seem too far away from "And of course the WOMEN get to be competent and goddamn HOLDO". Lack of reverence towards the original - a refusal to accept new interpretations or shake-ups, whcih is different from judging them on their own terms - seems to be a general throughline in all cases. You say the reviewbombing is not so much about the score about sending a message, but so much of that message is "[choice] has made the product completely irredeemable trash!", and the method of conveying the message is ultimately through an intended good-faith customer scoring system - i.e. tanking a metric of the products reputation. Its like if someone visit a restaurant that has added vegan options to menu and discontinued the Cheese Special, so they give the restaurant 0 stars on every possible platform to "SEND A MESSAGE" even if the service was quick, the staff was nice, the atmosphere great, and the meals tasty and well prepared. Like, if the new food options are straight up bad then by all means be negative, but the other perspective just seems...spoiled to me.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Idunno about trying to seperate TLOU, and TLJ (and I guess Masters of the Universe) from the rest of the trend, when a common throughline is anger at a percieved lack of reverence for highly idealized version of the male leads; The criticisms of "How DARE they treat Luke/Joel/ He Man that way!" never seem too far away from "And of course the WOMEN get to be competent and goddamn HOLDO". Lack of reverence towards the original - a refusal to accept new interpretations or shake-ups, whcih is different from judging them on their own terms - seems to be a general throughline in all cases.
    With TLJ, I already said that the general fan response was weaponized towards misogyny, but I think it's a bit off to act like there weren't a thousand other things that people took umbrage with in the movie. I mean, there are so many things and the backlash was pretty swift, even here at AP after opening night. I actually think it's a shame that misogyny does tend to rear its head when this happens because the rest of the conversation is drowned out, this conversation we're having being an example of such. And for TLOU, I think it's kind of disingenuous to lump it in when

    Spoiler:
    You not only watch a woman kill Joel, a character you spent an entire masterpiece of a game coming to love and empathize with, but then you play as her


    It's not at all weird to not want to participate in that or think it's emotionally manipulative. I didn't play the game because I know there's nothing I'm going to get from that experience, but the idea of it is big enough and bold enough that of course it was going to completely spoil the game for a lot of people. I feel like that was half the point! And again, of course a lot of people were immature about it and somehow it veered into weird (and wrong) anti-lgbt shit and death threats, but I don't think that's at the ROOT of the issue.

    You say the reviewbombing is not so much about the score about sending a message, but so much of that message is "[choice] has made the product completely irredeemable trash!", and the method of conveying the message is ultimately through an intended good-faith customer scoring system - i.e. tanking a metric of the products reputation. Its like if someone visit a restaurant that has added vegan options to menu and discontinued the Cheese Special, so they give the restaurant 0 stars on every possible platform to "SEND A MESSAGE" even if the service was quick, the staff was nice, the atmosphere great, and the meals tasty and well prepared. Like, if the new food options are straight up bad then by all means be negative, but the other perspective just seems...spoiled to me.
    When it happens it essentially becomes an upvote downvote system. The point is to tank the score so that developers have to notice. It's not the road I take when reviewing games, but I don't think it's inherently nefarious. Spoiled, maybe, but not without reason. And I mean, certain choices in basically everything in life can spoil things for those partaking. Game of Thrones last season is a great example of how messing up an integral point can spoil the entire thing.
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  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    The Venn Diagram of movies/shows being reviewbombed for "SJW" reasons and movies/shows with leads getting death threats is pretty much a circle.
    OK, but it also aligns perfectly with shows/movies that are either outright bad (Ghostbusters 2016, The Last Jedi) or heavily flawed (MoTU) and a lot of them used openly attacking fans as a strategy for drumming up drama before release (Captain Marvel, Ghostbusters 2016, MoTU).

    There's typically at least some reasonable justification for a large number of people to not like the thing from day one.
    Meanwhile there's no reasonable justification for sending death threats to people... so why even focus on the review bombing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    The whole "dogpiling seconds after release" aspect of Reviewbombing is a pretty strong suggestion that the people who partake have had their negative take ready to go for quite a while. And the thing about the Bombing is, its not merely generally negative reviews, its about dragging the score down as far as absolutely possible, its about 1 and 0/10s. Its scores communicating "there is literally not a single redeemable thing in this production, not the animation, the art direction, the voice acting, the pacing, the action NOTHING", which, come on, are ludicrous. Even if one doesn't like the show, which is fair, theres a baseline quality to the production to be considered. Unless you just have an axe to grind about a single plot decision which overrides everything else
    Why isn't there an option to filter out all 0/10, 1/10 and 10/10 review scores from the review average so people can see what the "real" score is, then?

    It just seems like this is the epitome of a top 1% of the first world problem mainly expressed by Hollywood types who want to excuse the fact that their movie was badly received and then for some reason half the internet repeats it uncritically because "fans bad".

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Idunno about trying to seperate TLOU, and TLJ (and I guess Masters of the Universe) from the rest of the trend, when a common throughline is anger at a percieved lack of reverence for highly idealized version of the male leads; The criticisms of "How DARE they treat Luke/Joel/ He Man that way!" never seem too far away from "And of course the WOMEN get to be competent and goddamn HOLDO".
    To be honest Holdo struck me as a deliberately negative female stereotype meant to convey the message that women are bitchy and unreasonable and should never be allowed to lead, and a secondary message of "men deserve this treatment".

    She's just a bad character that doesn't seem to have a purpose in the story other than to embolden misogynists and misandrists and cause real life drama, which she successfully did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Lack of reverence towards the original - a refusal to accept new interpretations or shake-ups, whcih is different from judging them on their own terms - seems to be a general throughline in all cases.
    Yes, there's a fair amount of "waah different is bad waah" as should be expected of any revival/remake, but a shocking amount of what I see being unfairly generalized and condemned is a lack of blind acceptance.
    People should be allowed to dislike sequels that disappoint them, and there's only so much change you can reasonably expect a fan to accept. If a product goes well beyond that point, it should've just been its own thing.

    MoTU 2021 is the perfect example of that latter category because almost everyone acknowledges that it should have been officially branded a Teela series.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    OK, but it also aligns perfectly with shows/movies that are either outright bad (Ghostbusters 2016, The Last Jedi)
    My wife loved Ghostbusters 2016. She laughed her ass off the whole time, I enjoyed it, we bought the bluray. It was NOT "outright bad".

    And Last Jedi was the best of the sequel SW films by quite a margin. The Finn subplot was a little dull in spots but it was the only movie of the bunch that actually did anything interesting, and the visuals were great. RoS flushed all the interesting stuff away so it was for nothing, but it was easily the strongest of the Disney films.

    To be honest Holdo struck me as a deliberately negative female stereotype meant to convey the message that women are bitchy and unreasonable and should never be allowed to lead, and a secondary message of "men deserve this treatment".

    She's just a bad character that doesn't seem to have a purpose in the story other than to embolden misogynists and misandrists and cause real life drama, which she successfully did.
    That's... certainly a take.
    .
    Last edited by Robby; August 5th, 2021 at 09:24 PM.
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  12. #92
    The English Avenger Satsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    I really liked Ghostbusters 2016! I'm glad I'm not the only one here who does!

  13. #93

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    but it was easily the strongest of the Disney films.
    That's debatable. Rouge One is pretty solid too, and the only one I could watch multiple times without falling asleep.

  14. #94

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    Well comedy is highly subjective.
    For me the problem was really bad direction and editing. It really seems like they just told the actresses to shove in as much improv as possible and instead of doing multiple takes or reshoots or attempting to edit to improve the comedic timing they just included most of it.
    If you were already a fan of the core group as comedians I could see that playing a major factor in your enjoyment. Lots of people watch movies solely for one or two specific actors even if everything else about the film is a disaster.
    I don't watch a lot of stand-up so this was my first exposure to all four of them.
    Last edited by Satsuki; August 6th, 2021 at 06:44 PM. Reason: I'm so sorry, Robo, I accidentally hit edit instead of reply

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    My wife loved Ghostbusters 2016. She laughed her ass off the whole time, I enjoyed it, we bought the bluray. It was NOT "outright bad".
    I decided not to watch it when the trailer released and the three white women were scientists and the black woman was the street smart subway worker. Nothing will ever justify that to me.

    And Last Jedi was the best of the sequel SW films by quite a margin. The Finn subplot was a little dull in spots but it was the only movie of the bunch that actually did anything interesting, and the visuals were great. RoS flushed all the interesting stuff away so it was for nothing, but it was easily the strongest of the Disney films.
    I can agree about the visuals, but the movie really didn't do it for me. At the end of the day I just didn't care about the characters when the movie was done, which was the most damning part. I was no longer interested in Finn or Poe, I didn't feel like there was a real threat for Rey, and in general it didn't seem like there were real stakes anymore. One of the three major villains was killed off and the other two were made into buffoons. There have been Star Wars films that had more flaws than TLJ, but I don't think there have been any that had such a large flaw that I didn't want to see what came next (though I would put Solo below TLJ). I guess bringing back Palpatine was a pretty big fuck up as well, but the idea of Hux or Kylo as the main villain after TLJ would have been equally unattractive.
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  16. #96
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    I'm gonna touch own on the exact same points as Robby, but these things jumped at me

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    OK, but it also aligns perfectly with shows/movies that are either outright bad (Ghostbusters 2016, The Last Jedi) or heavily flawed (MoTU) and a lot of them used openly attacking fans as a strategy for drumming up drama before release (Captain Marvel, Ghostbusters 2016, MoTU).
    Why is "The movies are "Outright Bad tho" relevant as a response to "These movies were reviewbombed and got death threats? Is the idea that the response is "understandable" because of the movies apparently being "outright bad"-movies that you just happen to dislike as well? Who gets to decide if a movie is "outright bad", and why is your own assesment in this case apparently self evidently true in terms of the quality of these products, over professional critics, box office receipts, IMDB score or whatever other metric you might use? Who gets to decide whether a movie """""Deserves It, though""""" based on its quality, or apparently "objectively fan-attacking" (curious choice of verb) marketing? You?

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post

    To be honest Holdo struck me as a deliberately negative female stereotype meant to convey the message that women are bitchy and unreasonable and should never be allowed to lead, and a secondary message of "men deserve this treatment".

    She's just a bad character that doesn't seem to have a purpose in the story other than to embolden misogynists and misandrists and cause real life drama, which she successfully did.
    Do you...legitimately think thats the reason she was included in the film? That this was her character purpose? Some sort of Drama-Provoking Stunt existing purely for cynical Meta-Level social media discourse bait, and nothing else? Deliberately "writing a bad character" to feed hatred as a "marketing stunt" was the point? And not something like, her purpose being to provide Poe Dameron with a character arc of becoming a more responsible leader, something he had nothing of in the prior film?

    But if you honestly believe that A) some of these movies being discussed are somehow objectively bad and can and B) incorporate malicious strategies to ferment outrage for their own publicity, even as part of the actual films themselves, then I don't know that your perspective on reviewbombing can be budged.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    Yes, there's a fair amount of "waah different is bad waah" as should be expected of any revival/remake, but a shocking amount of what I see being unfairly generalized and condemned is a lack of blind acceptance.
    People should be allowed to dislike sequels that disappoint them, and there's only so much change you can reasonably expect a fan to accept. If a product goes well beyond that point, it should've just been its own thing.

    MoTU 2021 is the perfect example of that latter category because almost everyone acknowledges that it should have been officially branded a Teela series.
    But if it had been a Teela series it would...still not have been its own thing? And if a name change fixes things, does your whole point about it being "too different" dissipate? The point about "were people misled?" is completely divorced from the point of "what is the actual quality of the show".

  17. #97

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Why is "The movies are "Outright Bad tho" relevant as a response to "These movies were reviewbombed and got death threats?
    There's some argument revisionism going on here.
    This started with me saying "why do you care if a bunch of people downvote stuff?"
    and the response from Robby was "because they haven't seen the thing and also death threats happened".

    The mention of death threats was irrelevant and no one has yet been able to accurately separate votes from angry people who saw the thing and angry votes from people who didn't, so my position is that there's no reason for people to care this much about a bunch of massive corporations getting unfair reviews of their content on platforms that were already sketchy to begin with.
    "some of the movies were outright bad" is a perfectly acceptable explanation for why a ton of people downvoted things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Is the idea that the response is "understandable" because of the movies apparently being "outright bad"-movies that you just happen to dislike as well? Who gets to decide if a movie is "outright bad", and why is your own assesment in this case apparently self evidently true in terms of the quality of these products, over professional critics, box office receipts, IMDB score or whatever other metric you might use?
    It is subjectively my opinion that those movies were bad, and a huge number of other people apparently agreed.
    Each individual person gets to decide if a movie is subjectively bad or not.

    Movies can be bad in a way that will piss off the majority of the people who care, or they can be bad in ways that don't affect their popularity at all.
    I can't really give you definitive metrics for why a film is bad or not, all I can give you is my reasons for why I think it failed to meet reasonable expectations both for the film I think it should have been and for entertaining me.
    There are certain things that I can usually tell are going to bother a large number of people, and certain things that just bother me.

    In this case I could see from a mile away that Ghostbusters was going to be a trainwreck, but it took some time for me to fully appreciate just how badly TLJ screwed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Who gets to decide whether a movie """""Deserves It, though""""" based on its quality, or apparently "objectively fan-attacking" (curious choice of verb) marketing? You?
    You're getting unreasonably angry.

    Haven't you ever seen a movie trailer and said "wow that looks like crap" and then you saw it and hated it, and then it got bad reviews from a bunch of other people?
    You may or may not say the movie "deserved" those bad reviews but you'd definitely understand why other people hated it.
    If you then heard people whining for years about the unfair treatment the movie got in the reviews, you'd probably wonder why they'd waste their time and energy on something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Do you...legitimately think thats the reason she was included in the film? That this was her character purpose? Some sort of Drama-Provoking Stunt existing purely for cynical Meta-Level social media discourse bait, and nothing else? Deliberately "writing a bad character" to feed hatred as a "marketing stunt" was the point? And not something like, her purpose being to provide Poe Dameron with a character arc of becoming a more responsible leader, something he had nothing of in the prior film?
    I think it's very possible.
    Granted, I'm not psychic and the whole movie reeks of "why would you do this?" so I'm not going to pretend my opinion couldn't be completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    But if you honestly believe that A) some of these movies being discussed are somehow objectively bad and can and B) incorporate malicious strategies to ferment outrage for their own publicity, even as part of the actual films themselves, then I don't know that your perspective on reviewbombing can be budged.
    B definitely happens.
    A is inaccurate because I think it's really hard, if not impossible, to say that art is objectively bad. It's definitely possible for large numbers of people to agree that a movie is subjectively bad for the exact same reason, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    But if it had been a Teela series it would...still not have been its own thing? And if a name change fixes things, does your whole point about it being "too different" dissipate? The point about "were people misled?" is completely divorced from the point of "what is the actual quality of the show".
    If it were a Teela series from the start He-Man's role would have been cut way down.
    It's not just a name difference, the people who made it clearly wanted it to be about Teela being the leader of her own superhero team and I never stopped getting the impression that He-Man was forced into the narrative by Hasbro.

    But mainly the name change would've fixed the false expectations people had for the series.
    "Masters of The Universe" means He-Man, people expected a He-Man series and all the trailers told them He-Man was the main character.
    If people expected Teela to be the MC going in there would've been much less of a backlash.

    The review scores reflect the "were people misled" controversy far more than the actual quality of the show, and that's a problem that rebranding would've fixed.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    The original show was called He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, the sequel was The New Adventures of He-Man, the remake was He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. Most people just called it He-Man. The film was just called Masters of the Universe but Skeletor was clearly the focus of that film.

    So, no, longtime fans had no reason to automatically assume a Masters of the Universe show that didn't include his name was mostly about He-Man especially when it was subtitled Revelations and one of the biggest unaddressed plot points from the franchise is Teela being the daughter of Man-at-Arms and the Sorceress.
    Last edited by Ubiq; August 8th, 2021 at 03:41 PM.
    Complicating things since 2009.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    The original show was called He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, the sequel was The New Adventures of He-Man, the remake was He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. Most people just called it He-Man. The film was just called Masters of the Universe but Skeletor was clearly the focus of that film.

    So, no, longtime fans had no reason to automatically assume a Masters of the Universe show that didn't include his name was mostly about He-Man especially when it was subtitled Revelations and one of the biggest unaddressed plot points from the franchise is Teela being the daughter of Man-at-Arms and the Sorceress.
    The trailers all focused heavily on He-Man and his team, making the show look like a fusion of 80s MoTU and 2002 MoTU.
    In fact... I don't even think Masters of The Universe is an accurate title for this show because Teela (the main character) quits the MoTU in episode 1 and then they seemingly disband.
    It's mainly focused on a totally different group made up of Teela, Andra, Evil-Lynn, Beastman and Orko.

  20. #100
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Netflix's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe... and Silent Bob?

    I mean it's just a first season of the show. And depending whether they keep the same structure in the future releases, there could be a shitload of seasons. It's way too early to start "panicking" about this being a Teela show. For all we know other seasons might be centered around other protagonists, possibly even villains.

    Teela leading the show, so far, is a much lesser problem (if you even call it a problem) than the bad writing. That's not to say *everything* was badly written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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