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Thread: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

  1. #41
    Arf. (ᵔᴥᵔ) FelRes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Sky Lord isn't a bad compromise. I don't entirely like that it lacks the brevity of Kami/God though, but I would read a version that uses it without complaint.

    Just to clarify, did Kami stick out because you know it's a Japanese word left in? I get the feeling a reader without that context might not recognise it for that. It's made of simple and common enough sounds that I didn't find it totally out of place with the setting. And to be fair, while the Shandorans are visually very Native American, linguistically, the word Shandora apparently has Sanskrit roots. The sounds in Kami aren't out of place at all in that language. If we didn't know better we could almost take it as a play on the name of Kali, an actual god from the same culture.
    Knowing that kami is a Japanese word, and knowing its meaning, does hurt its use in the English version. And even if you didn't know what it means, it's still an obviously Japanese word. It simply does not fit the setting of Skypiea. If it were a title used in Wano, or by swordsmen using Japanese swords, or by characters with distinctly Japanese influence (Jinbe, Zoro, etc(and you could argue Enel, but his design has a lot more going on)), then it would work I think. It matches. The way kami got used with Viz just breaks immersion, and is a constant reminder that they couldn't be arsed to just translate it somehow.
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  2. #42

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    It stuck out particularly badly given Dragonball, and knowing that it is in fact supposed to be God. Without knowing either of those thing I dunno how bad it would be, but it was pretty rough with that knowledge.

    WHen one of the strawhats says "I don't fear God" or "I'm going to beat up God", that has a very specific sound and meaning to it. "I don't fear the Sky Lord" loses a looooot of the meaning and punch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiolino View Post
    The weirdest thing about the Kami and Vassals stuff is that the Viz manga is rated Teen. It’s not advertized as an all-ages comic!
    Quote Originally Posted by FelRes View Post
    Knowing that kami is a Japanese word, and knowing its meaning, does hurt its use in the English version. And even if you didn't know what it means, it's still an obviously Japanese word. It simply does not fit the setting of Skypiea. If it were a title used in Wano, or by swordsmen using Japanese swords, or by characters with distinctly Japanese influence (Jinbe, Zoro, etc(and you could argue Enel, but his design has a lot more going on)), then it would work I think. It matches. The way kami got used with Viz just breaks immersion, and is a constant reminder that they couldn't be arsed to just translate it somehow.
    Hm. God, I still think, really doesn't work for the title of Skypeia's ruler because the connotations just aren't the same in English. Hearing Ganfor saying "I was the previous God of this land," in the scanlations the first time I read it was really freaking weird to me, because that term just does not work as a transferable title. It's too deified, but as Robby pointed out, something more mundane like Sky Lord isn't deified enough, because the leadership position does also have religious connotations. You almost wish Oda had made up a term from the same roots he got Shandora from that we could use.

    That's why I'll tend to disagree with people who argue it to be "censorship" of the religious aspects like Kaiolino or call it laziness like FelRes. It's not an everyday conversational world like "friend" or "crewmate" that everyone should automatically know. It's a title for a foreign leader that, yes, uses an existing Japanese word, but is given connotations that clash with the direct translation of that word. I can't imagine Kami was a choice made lightly. I wasn't personally bothered by its use, but as someone who has railed against inexplicably untranslated Japanese in other areas of the story, I'm 100% sympathetic with people who were.

    One Piece is an epic, world building-driven work of fantasy that's occasionally going to need its own in-universe terminology just by virtue of that genre. Finding a way to reconcile the original Japanese with the cues Oda took from other cultures in his world building, and with being understandable and coming across as well written in English is a nightmarish task for translators, and there's never going to be one perfect translation of the story that pleases everyone.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    The entire point was VERY SPECIFICALLY that they were going to punch out god. That was the entire point. Maybe in Japanese it feels a bit different since they have multiple deities, but it was absolutely the intent to have the characters say "I'm not afraid of God", etc.

    Similarly, in Dragonball, his name isn't Kami. It's God. It's supposed to be heard and interpreted as such. The English has just used Kami for decades so we're used to that as his name, but... it really really is supposed to just be "God" and not a proper untranslatable name.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The entire point was VERY SPECIFICALLY that they were going to punch out god. That was the entire point. Maybe in Japanese it feels a bit different since they have multiple deities, but it was absolutely the intent to have the characters say "I'm not afraid of God", etc.

    Similarly, in Dragonball, his name isn't Kami. It's God. It's supposed to be heard and interpreted as such. The English has just used Kami for decades so we're used to that as his name, but... it really really is supposed to just be "God" and not a proper untranslatable name.
    You do have a good point there. And thinking on the "fear is God" line, that lost a decent chunk of its bite as well.

    Even being nonreligious, living in a monotheistic culture gives you certain ideas when God is used as a singular title or name. Having is as a title that can be moved from person to person doesn't fit with its usual use, and DB Kami's power isn't quite absolute enough to be the singular God (at least outside the abridged series). But that's just what's in my mind, it's definitely not the universal experience with this kinda thing.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    At the time Kami is introduced in Dragonball, he is the highest deity in the world. That he's actually low ranking on the cosmic ladder is something we find out later, but for a time, the guy that lived high up in the clouds and was the split half of the ultimate demon thing was suppsoed to be God, right down to a bit about how God shouldn't lie or commit suicide.

    They added further rules with it being a passed along title later but at the time...

  6. #46

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    At the time Kami is introduced in Dragonball, he is the highest deity in the world. That he's actually low ranking on the cosmic ladder is something we find out later, but for a time, the guy that lived high up in the clouds and was the split half of the ultimate demon thing was suppsoed to be God, right down to a bit about how God shouldn't lie or commit suicide.

    They added further rules with it being a passed along title later but at the time...
    That is true. Man, there are so many ways in which the powerlevel creep was unkind to the Dragonball universe.

  7. #47
    21st Century Schizoid Man S.C. Amigo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Well, there is Zen-O now to cap the power levels.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    If all do respect, and totally unrelated to the subject, Herlock Sholmes is a far better name than the original.


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  9. #49
    Don't know, yet ... HTC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    It definitely predated the end of the Arlong arc. I don't remember if they used "nakama" before Dythim came along, but there was an announcement about halfway through Arlong that they would be leaving more words untranslated in an effort to teach the fandom some Japanese and hopefully give them a greater appreciation for the story.

    Dythim was a perfectionist who cared deeply about making each episode the best release possible, so laziness was never a factor (the third movie went through QC over seven times​ for example).
    Episode 38. Here are a bunch of screenies of that episode describing their reasoning (@ the beginning of the episode): https://imgur.com/a/NwLDxit

    On a personal note, the change from the translated moves to un-translated, other than a note on the top / bottom with explanation, as needed, was a welcomed one. I never had any problems with words such as "nakama", "mikan", "shichibukai" and other such words, with the exception of "ojousama" (SP??), which very much predates this announcement.

    OTOH, i very much do have a problem with changing of names: bugs the hell out of me. Examples like "Zoro" VS "Zolo" or "Luffy" VS "Ruffy". Unless there was a translation error, due to insufficient information, such as the case with "reverie" or "Jurakule Mihawk": this is different because it's correcting an unintended mistake and, while it still bugs me, doesn't do so as much.

    A similar situation occurred when the Chopper's VA got sick and was substituted for a few episodes by another person: i'm so used to Chopper "being Chopper" that anyone else voicing the character just seems plain wrong. I'd probably say the same thing if the roles were reversed and the original VA was the one they switched to. No disrespect intended to either VAs, ofc.
    Last edited by HTC; October 15th, 2018 at 05:11 AM. Reason: Damn typos ...
    HTC - Hoje Tive C

  10. #50

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by HTC View Post
    Episode 38. Here are a bunch of screenies of that episode describing their reasoning (@ the beginning of the episode): https://imgur.com/a/NwLDxit

    On a personal note, the change from the translated moves to un-translated, other then a note on the top / bottom with explanation, as needed, was a welcomed one. I never had any problems with words such as "nakama", "mikan", "sichibukai" and other such words, with the exception of "ojousama" (SP??), which very much predates this announcement.

    OTOH, i very much do have a problem with changing of names: bugs the hell out of me. Examples like "Zoro" VS "Zolo" or "Luffy" VS "Ruffy". Unless there was a translation error, due to insufficient information, such as the case with "reverie" or "Jurakule Mihawk": this is different because it's correcting an unintended mistake and, while it still bugs me, doesn't do so as much.

    A similar situation occurred when the Chopper's VA got sick and was substituted for a few episodes by another person: i'm so used to Chopper "being Chopper" that anyone else voicing the character just seems plain wrong. I'd probably say the same thing if the roles were reversed and the original VA was the one they switched to. No disrespect intended to either VAs, ofc.
    That was an interesting read. It went from a reasonable translation philosophy that I just disagree with, to fanwank (by the second slide on Nakama out of three). I can't imagine any reason every not to translate mikan though. I must be lucky to have never come across a version that left that untouched.

    Attack names for me, personally, are very context driven. Most of them for One Piece are puns, but Oda also likes to use words from a language that matches the character, with most of the more Japanese ones coming from characters with Japanese coded islands (Zoro, Jinbei, ect). There's a fine balance of working the puns where possible and keeping the terminology surrounding a character consistent with their background. Both options reflect the author's intent in different ways.

  11. #51
    Don't know, yet ... HTC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    That was an interesting read. It went from a reasonable translation philosophy that I just disagree with, to fanwank (by the second slide on Nakama out of three). I can't imagine any reason every not to translate mikan though. I must be lucky to have never come across a version that left that untouched.

    Attack names for me, personally, are very context driven. Most of them for One Piece are puns, but Oda also likes to use words from a language that matches the character, with most of the more Japanese ones coming from characters with Japanese coded islands (Zoro, Jinbei, ect). There's a fine balance of working the puns where possible and keeping the terminology surrounding a character consistent with their background. Both options reflect the author's intent in different ways.
    I'm Portuguese, but i never once read One Piece in my language: always in English.

    Perhaps that's why somethings bug me with the translations while others don't? Dunno, really.
    HTC - Hoje Tive C

  12. #52

    Default Re: Ivrea takes over Larp Editores in Argentina...with horrible results.

    Well, one GOOD thing is that Ivrea is more competent at having a regular release schedule.

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