View Poll Results: Who will join the alliance to take down Kaido?

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  • Eustass Kid

    225 77.05%
  • Basil Hawkins

    118 40.41%
  • X Drake

    139 47.60%
  • Scratchmen Apoo

    69 23.63%
  • Gekko Moriah

    83 28.42%
  • ???

    46 15.75%
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Thread: Official Wano Thread

  1. #1261

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    Disagree about Oden vs. Kaido. Oden losing due to a cheat keeps the sense of injustice strong. Kaido winning could give some sense of despair, but not the drive to avenge Oden.

    Agree about the scabbards getting up. They should have stayed down.

    I'm not sure what to think of Yamato. There's still too much to be told about him before I can judge what would be "best". But I do feel Yamato's late introduction was really weird.

    Agree that the uncertainty about Luffy's fate should have been kept for longer.

    I think the problem with Hyogoro dying is that it would make Chopper fail, but I do agree that Hyogoro got an upgrade and then a get-out-of-jail-free card, doubly reducing the stakes.

    Agree about Tama.
    Well, having Yamato introduced as such definitely makes the intro weirder, but pleasantly unique I'd say. I'd suppose the large absence is made up for in light of Luffy losing Round 2 and Yamato resorting to holding Kaido off, almost as if to say that Luffy is needing Yamato to prevent Kaido from causing any more destruction to others.

  2. #1262

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengokusgoat View Post
    I'm thinking that Yamato is the dog in the Momotaro analogy. Those teeth would fit, and if we assume Luffy is the monkey and Marco is the pheasant, all 3 would share a connection with Ace, as very clearly illustrated in 999.
    Welp, I'd say Yamato is looking fairly canine now. And Zoro going back could free Marco to go the rooftop, so I think it's pretty likely we'll get the whole Momotaro reference after all.

  3. #1263

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    My guess for how the rest of the arc will pan out.

    1. We get 1-2 chapter fights for Robin/Brook.
    2. Move on to the Samurai's fights, Sanji and Zoro. Around 1 chapter for samurai, maybe a bit longer for the monster duo. Calamities are defeated.
    3. Things heat up. Yamato's fight against Kaido isn't going well. Smallish flashback begins between the two of them.
    4. Luffy returns after the battle to kick some Kaido butt. Kaido gets a report that his underlings are done, we might get a nice spread with the "don" effect for each defeated combatant.
    5. Island is about to drop. Luffy's fight gets more tense.
    6. Big Mom's battle with Law and Kidd gets some attention. She may defeated, she may be severely injured but won't be defeated until Kaido is, or they simply duke it out until Big Mom retreats after Persopero and Kaido are defeated.
    7. Orochi's last stand. Kin'emon is still alive and will be the one to deliver justice, either capturing or killing him (or for dramatic effect somehow dies by his own incompetence).
    8. Momo uses his dragon powers to save the flower capital while Luffy beats Kaido once and for all. Some nice speech from Momo to the rest of Wano.
    9. Big Mom's children arrive at the island only to find everyone defeated. Big Mom has either been defeated or decided to retreat. They decide to retreat as well.
    10. After-arc. Wano begins to heal, some lore drops, big party, CP0 leaves.

    I'm wondering what'll happen to Kaido once he's down. I'm certain he'll be defeated, but I have a hard time imagining him ending up in Impel Down. It'd be a shame for such a legend.
    Big question is if he'll find his death or live on.

  4. #1264

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    I couldn't guess the whole arc in detail from here, but I think I could take a way-too-specific-to-ever-be-accurate shot at the rest of volume 101:

    1020: Cat's group crosses the Performance Floor and intercepts Perospero as he tries to climb back up. Rest of the chapter focuses on Robin, Brook and Black Maria, who is defeated.
    1021: Drake and Apoo is wrapped up, ditto with Killer and Hawkins. Izo and Kawamatsu help out with one of these underdeveloped fights (mostly because I'm not sure what else they could do at this stage.) Hawkins does a grim foretelling for the land of Wano before he falls.
    1022: Yamato is on the backfoot and won't last much longer. The bonfire light of the Flower Capital is visible. Kaido says not even the real Oden could protect Wano from what he's about to do. Marco is injured and struggling to keep up with King. Zoro offers to help out as thanks for getting him to the roof earlier. Luffy is worried about getting back on the island. Law's crew explains how he called out to them without talking and he wonders if he could use that power again to reach someone who flies.
    1023: Cat pushes Perospero back outside and sees the fallen Carrot and Wanda. Perospero gloats about beating them, but the island moves into the clear skies over the Capital, revealing the moon. Sulong Cat finishes the fight quickly. A similar scene plays out with Dog and Jack. From their outdoor vantage points, the mink leaders realise how little time they have left.
    1024: Raizo is doing well against Fukurokuju, but Orochi returns, his last head rearing up. Denjiro swoops back in and attacks him. They talk about the years they spent working together and Denjiro expresses the fury and frustration of the people of Wano before cutting Orochi down, ending the volume.

    I would give decent but not guaranteed odds to the remaining Scabbards being (or seemingly being) mortally wounded in their fights like Kin'emon and Kiku were. Izo and Kawamatsu haven't really been set up with anyone or to do anything specific yet and could drop in anywhere or do anything, really.

    Volume 102 opens with the crowd at the Capital spotting the island, and then goes back into Sanji and Zoro's fights followed by Kid and Law's fight with Big Mom. Not sure how that last fight will go. An outright defeat or ambiguously throwing her off the island again both seem possible. Kaido descends from the roof, leaving Yamato injured and possibly prompting a group effort to slow him down from all who remain standing. If we really want it to look grim, he might pick up Big Mom on the way through. Luffy calls to Momo with his new power and is flown back to the island for the final round. Yamato helps Momo find his courage and "be a man" so he can take control of the flame clouds flying the island to stop the tragedy while Luffy fights Kaido a final time. It probably takes at least halfway into volume 103 to totally wrap all that up, then we get our post battle cooldown and lore dump.

    I look forward to reflecting on this post and laughing.

  5. #1265
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    You forgot about the Kaido/Yamato flashback.
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  6. #1266

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Hard to say where the right time for that is now. It feels like we're past the point where it would feel good to interrupt the action with it like Law's or Big Mom's did, so maybe Yamato just runs through it alongside the rest of the post-arc lore dump. Perhaps using the backstory as a framing device for all the historical snippets that might not come together coherently otherwise.

  7. #1267

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Hard to say where the right time for that is now. It feels like we're past the point where it would feel good to interrupt the action with it like Law's or Big Mom's did, so maybe Yamato just runs through it alongside the rest of the post-arc lore dump. Perhaps using the backstory as a framing device for all the historical snippets that might not come together coherently otherwise.
    I debated whether I would include it at all in my prediction for similar reasons. Feels like the pacing takes a hit no matter where you place it.

    Loved your prediction by the way. It's gonna be fun to see how many points we get right (or sorta right) and where we completely screwed up.

  8. #1268

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Since Kaidou dream is to have an impactful death, I could imagine his flashback after he is defeated

  9. #1269

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zar View Post
    I debated whether I would include it at all in my prediction for similar reasons. Feels like the pacing takes a hit no matter where you place it.

    Loved your prediction by the way. It's gonna be fun to see how many points we get right (or sorta right) and where we completely screwed up.
    I liked yours too! I feel like the big battle conclusions and main events are all safe bets by this point, it's mostly a matter of order and pacing.

    The most interesting loose ends are after-battle things like what happens to Kaido or how Big Mom's crew react when they do arrive, and they both feel pretty open for the moment. What if Big Mom's kids take her and Kaido back together, knowing that they're meant to be in an alliance? Kinda keeps them both out there as a potential endgame factor, and we haven't seen evidence of Cipher Pol having a ship big enough to detain the two of them anyway.

    (it's hard to imagine him actually dying with the current setup. Luffy's not the type to finish the job that way, and his fighting style as we know it doesn't really lend itself to accidental deaths. If the big dragon man's going down permanently, I don't think he'll be killed by anything we've seen yet.)

  10. #1270

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Welp, I based my prediction on the idea that volume 101 would go to 1024, which looked like a good amount of space to squeeze in everything but the highest level fights. Now we know it's got at least another chapter in it. That could mean two chapters of Brook and Robin, Cat and Dog wrapping their battles in separate chapters, some breathing room for everything to develop a little more slowly or any number of other things.

    I kinda thought I'd get to wait at least until the next chapter dropped before something poked holes in my prediction lol

  11. #1271
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Hard to say where the right time for that is now. It feels like we're past the point where it would feel good to interrupt the action with it like Law's or Big Mom's did, so maybe Yamato just runs through it alongside the rest of the post-arc lore dump. Perhaps using the backstory as a framing device for all the historical snippets that might not come together coherently otherwise.
    Feels like after the chapters of strawhat versus fights before Luffy returns there's gonna be a Kaido vs. Yamato chapter and at the end of it the flashback begins. After the flashback we get the tail end of their fight with Kaido winning/about to win and either he knocks out Yamato and moves on to kill the strawhats and samurai or Luffy steps in before the finishing blow.

    Thoughts on Yamato joining aside, do ppl really think this last part is going to go by without a flashback for Kaido?

    I mean there are some things Oda just always does.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Zar View Post
    I debated whether I would include it at all in my prediction for similar reasons. Feels like the pacing takes a hit no matter where you place it.

    Loved your prediction by the way. It's gonna be fun to see how many points we get right (or sorta right) and where we completely screwed up.
    Eh, pacing be damned. So many have complained about the pacing of this act so much with all the "running around" and all of the fights not feeling like they're the end what does it matter. The raid may do well with a break and some insight and back story on Kaido, his history, reasoning/dreams as a pirate, and Yamato.
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  12. #1272

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    Feels like after the chapters of strawhat versus fights before Luffy returns there's gonna be a Kaido vs. Yamato chapter and at the end of it the flashback begins. After the flashback we get the tail end of their fight with Kaido winning/about to win and either he knocks out Yamato and moves on to kill the strawhats and samurai or Luffy steps in before the finishing blow.

    Thoughts on Yamato joining aside, do ppl really think this last part is going to go by without a flashback for Kaido?

    I mean there are some things Oda just always does.
    Is this something Oda always does? Big Mom got it right as the arc moved into its climax, and Doflamingo managed to piggyback on Law's backstory but outside of those two examples villains don't get full-on flashbacks all that often. And the non-villain flashbacks usually come before the fighting (in about the place where Oden's was) instead of in the middle of it.

    There are a lot of things from Kaido's past I think we need to know - like what happened with Rocks, the details of the experiments Vegapunk ran on him and why it was so important for him to set up shop on Wano - but very little that feels pressing to know right now before we see his defeat. I think a Yamato flashback that at least covers the "why Wano" question is all but guaranteed in the post-battle section, but the rest of it... Well, a Rocks flashback is a probably a super endgame thing, and we're definitely meeting Vegapunk and learning a bit about him in future arcs as well, so maybe the rest of the Kaido history is going to fold into those sequences.

    I'm not saying I'm totally certain it won't happen, just that it doesn't have to happen, and there are ways to fill in the gaps in Kaido's past elsewhere in the story.

  13. #1273
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Is this something Oda always does? Big Mom got it right as the arc moved into its climax, and Doflamingo managed to piggyback on Law's backstory but outside of those two examples villains don't get full-on flashbacks all that often. And the non-villain flashbacks usually come before the fighting (in about the place where Oden's was) instead of in the middle of it.
    It's more of a New World trend. I'd add the Fishman Island flashback that worked for Jimbe and even Hodi.

    To me it seems Oda is giving some dedicated time to the bigger names. A mystery and big name like Kaido? Ripe for a lot of storytelling and multiple appearances in flashbacks not just his own. I don't see how Oda skips Kaido's motivations for choosing Wano, teaming up with Orochi, teaming up with Linlin, wanting to make Onigashima a pirate capital, why he wants a glorious death and that's just core stuff as an antagonist. Being captured by the WG, Vegapunk experiments, his time as a Rocks pirate, etc. are all bonuses. I doubt he's gonna give up all that info in an exposition dump while fighting Yamato and then Luffy.

    Plus I just don't think a flashback for him fits after he's already defeated when were moving on the party part and epilogue unless the flash back happens immediately after his defeat and he's sort of reflecting on his loss, his journey, and acts as a father.
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  14. #1274

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    The time for the flashback is when the players are all gathered, right before the final battle begins. Give more context to what is being fought for, more personal stakes, give insight to the villain before they're beaten...

    It's the timing Oda used for Chopper, Skypeia, and Robin and it would probably work well here. Once all the generals are beaten (and Big Mom has been handled?) and you know the win is in the bag except for the final bit of "biggest action yet" so there's only one major drama point left to focus on. So the flashback is emphasizing and enhancing that one thing, but not slowign down or hurting anything else.
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  15. #1275

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    It's more of a New World trend. I'd add the Fishman Island flashback that worked for Jimbe and even Hodi.

    To me it seems Oda is giving some dedicated time to the bigger names. A mystery and big name like Kaido? Ripe for a lot of storytelling and multiple appearances in flashbacks not just his own. I don't see how Oda skips Kaido's motivations for choosing Wano, teaming up with Orochi, teaming up with Linlin, wanting to make Onigashima a pirate capital, why he wants a glorious death and that's just core stuff as an antagonist. Being captured by the WG, Vegapunk experiments, his time as a Rocks pirate, etc. are all bonuses. I doubt he's gonna give up all that info in an exposition dump while fighting Yamato and then Luffy.

    Plus I just don't think a flashback for him fits after he's already defeated when were moving on the party part and epilogue unless the flash back happens immediately after his defeat and he's sort of reflecting on his loss, his journey, and acts as a father.
    See, I wonder how much we actually need to see Kaido's personal motivations the same way we saw Big Mom's. For Linlin, there was a genuine curiosity about the juxtaposition of her sickly sweet, everyone-get-along side and her selfish, violent pirate queen side. Maybe this only speaks to my own lack of engagement in the character, but right now I only see Kaido as an archetypal nihilistic tough guy, bored with any life except that of the Pirate King but too strong to die. He wanted Wano because it's key to the One Piece in some way, and used Orochi because it was the most convenient way to take over, control and monetize the country without having to micromanage it himself. The part of that which interests me is why Wano is key to anything, and we don't necessarily have to be in Kaido's head to drop the lore that explains that.

    But we shall see. Maybe a good flashback will be just the thing to retroactively turn the big dragon into a more substantial character, whenever it drops.

  16. #1276

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    There were things that were kept out of Oden's flashback concerning Kaido that I felt could fit into some kind of Rocks flashback later on in the arc.

  17. #1277
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    See, I wonder how much we actually need to see Kaido's personal motivations the same way we saw Big Mom's. For Linlin, there was a genuine curiosity about the juxtaposition of her sickly sweet, everyone-get-along side and her selfish, violent pirate queen side. Maybe this only speaks to my own lack of engagement in the character, but right now I only see Kaido as an archetypal nihilistic tough guy, bored with any life except that of the Pirate King but too strong to die. He wanted Wano because it's key to the One Piece in some way, and used Orochi because it was the most convenient way to take over, control and monetize the country without having to micromanage it himself. The part of that which interests me is why Wano is key to anything, and we don't necessarily have to be in Kaido's head to drop the lore that explains that.

    But we shall see. Maybe a good flashback will be just the thing to retroactively turn the big dragon into a more substantial character, whenever it drops.
    I feel like there are deeper connections and reasons to each of those things as it pertains to Kaido's past in relation to Wano.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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  18. #1278

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    See, I wonder how much we actually need to see Kaido's personal motivations the same way we saw Big Mom's. For Linlin, there was a genuine curiosity about the juxtaposition of her sickly sweet, everyone-get-along side and her selfish, violent pirate queen side. Maybe this only speaks to my own lack of engagement in the character, but right now I only see Kaido as an archetypal nihilistic tough guy, bored with any life except that of the Pirate King but too strong to die. He wanted Wano because it's key to the One Piece in some way, and used Orochi because it was the most convenient way to take over, control and monetize the country without having to micromanage it himself. The part of that which interests me is why Wano is key to anything, and we don't necessarily have to be in Kaido's head to drop the lore that explains that.

    But we shall see. Maybe a good flashback will be just the thing to retroactively turn the big dragon into a more substantial character, whenever it drops.
    There are small nuances, like his weird honor streak and courtesy towards his enemies that feel like hints towards a deeper motivation. It doesn't feel like we're supposed to see him as evil as most OP villains.

  19. #1279

    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sibersk Esto View Post
    There are small nuances, like his weird honor streak and courtesy towards his enemies that feel like hints towards a deeper motivation. It doesn't feel like we're supposed to see him as evil as most OP villains.
    He feels more like a pre-timeskip villain in that regard. Since Hody, every villain has been an unapologetically evil, irredeemable jerk. Kaido has a bit more of the Crocodile or Moria in him, it seems.

    Hi.

  20. #1280
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Wano Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rawrfizzz View Post
    He feels more like a pre-timeskip villain in that regard. Since Hody, every villain has been an unapologetically evil, irredeemable jerk. Kaido has a bit more of the Crocodile or Moria in him, it seems.

    Hi.
    You've given up on Big Mom?
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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