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Thread: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

  1. #2921

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Rundas View Post
    So...sometimes a thread can derail a bit, but don't you think it would be better to create a own discussion thread for this whole Yamatos gender debate?
    Not really, because it randomly breaks out in a bunch of other threads (spoilers especially) no matter what and will likely continue until the end of the arc when we learn to what degree Yamato does or doesn't abandon his "Oden-ness".

    We have a general LGBT thread but it never makes it to there.
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  2. #2922
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I knew that the definition of the rape word varied around the world (like I knew for instance how Sweden's definition is broader than almost everywhere else) but I never expected it to be employed in such situation. By that definition, so many manga/anime I've read/watch since my childhood have at least 1 rape sequence.

    In any case, I disagree with that interpretation of Sanji's hell and I'll move on to something else : give me more info on that proto small and fat Yamato. I want her in the crew

  3. #2923

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Well yeah, i mean a lot of older media has that pepe le pew style rapist behaviour in it.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    I mean the gag with Sanji is he does not want it, but they are gonna do it to him anyway. If he stops running for even a second these your lips say no but your eyes say yes rapists are going to do stuff to him, stuff that leaves him traumatized for years afterwards. I mean unless you are their lawyer arguing for a lesser sentance this type of oh they never put their genitalia in his genitalia arguments are absurd, you know what the implication is, i know what the implication is, and it is gross

  4. #2924

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.



    It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

    "unlawful sexual activity... forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"


    Other dictionary definitions



    Hey, what does that sound like?

    Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.


    Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

    I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

    I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"
    Do you mind if we just use the more common terms instead of "rape" for everything in the future?

    It's confusing and there are not insignificant reasons that some people would prefer sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape to remain firmly separate.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Well yeah, i mean a lot of older media has that pepe le pew style rapist behaviour in it.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    I mean the gag with Sanji is he does not want it, but they are gonna do it to him anyway. If he stops running for even a second these your lips say no but your eyes say yes rapists are going to do stuff to him, stuff that leaves him traumatized for years afterwards. I mean unless you are their lawyer arguing for a lesser sentance this type of oh they never put their genitalia in his genitalia arguments are absurd, you know what the implication is, i know what the implication is, and it is gross
    He was afraid they were going to put the dress back on him, not shove their sexual organs inside him.

    That seems pretty clear honestly.
    Last edited by RoboBlue; September 5th, 2021 at 04:25 AM.

  5. #2925

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    The Okama scream stereotypes and actively make me sick to look at and think about. They also prove that Oda has definitely just...not researched us before. One can't go on trans Twitter or Reddit and seeing a slew of hot trans women. ��

    Anyway, yeah, I always read them as being coded or written as outright rapists...which is also extremely offensive. Just like Oda needing to constantly point out that "Kiku is/was a man!" Like...listen. Stop. I don't need a cis guy writing a trans tragedy story. At all.
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  6. #2926

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    The Okama scream stereotypes and actively make me sick to look at and think about. They also prove that Oda has definitely just...not researched us before. One can't go on trans Twitter or Reddit and seeing a slew of hot trans women. ��

    Anyway, yeah, I always read them as being coded or written as outright rapists...which is also extremely offensive. Just like Oda needing to constantly point out that "Kiku is/was a man!" Like...listen. Stop. I don't need a cis guy writing a trans tragedy story. At all.
    I don't remember Oda insistently underlining Kiku was a man. Like I do remember only when she claimed her woman heart and the fact she was addressed as a male when being a kid.

    The whole Kiku depiction doesn't looks this bad and doesn't even looks like a "trans tragedy story".

    On a side note I don't believe the "speaking about a topic" needs you author to be part of it, just be informed enough. Which actually Oda "seems" to have done between the newkama wave and Kiku's debut.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  7. #2927

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Oda made awesome characters in Ivankov, Mr. 2 Bon Kurei and Kiku. And there's also Morley and Inazuma around, thought their sexuality is a little less exposed. The Kamabaka people are just a funny gag. They are to be taken as seriously as the straight men having nosebleeds and fainting over Nami, or everyone acting like an idiot around Hancock.
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  8. #2928

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    Oda made awesome characters in Ivankov, Mr. 2 Bon Kurei and Kiku. And there's also Morley and Inazuma around, thought their sexuality is a little less exposed. The Kamabaka people are just a funny gag. They are to be taken as seriously as the straight men having nosebleeds and fainting over Nami, or everyone acting like an idiot around Hancock.
    Sanji's behavior around women itself carries its own baggage of problems.

    Even in Japan, the overly pervert character is starting to fade in popularity. Sanji still has his main character status and other personality traits to keep him popular, but other characters that attempt the same joke like Kin'emon and Momonosuke end up not nearly as liked as a result.
    Last edited by King Cannon; September 5th, 2021 at 07:51 AM.

  9. #2929

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    I don't remember Oda insistently underlining Kiku was a man. Like I do remember only when she claimed her woman heart and the fact she was addressed as a male when being a kid.

    The whole Kiku depiction doesn't looks this bad and doesn't even looks like a "trans tragedy story".

    On a side note I don't believe the "speaking about a topic" needs you author to be part of it, just be informed enough. Which actually Oda "seems" to have done between the newkama wave and Kiku's debut.
    Considering the bullshit I have to put up with in my daily life and in the media that cishet people consume and use as a basis for their understanding of trans and gender non-conforming people I'm allowed to be as criticial as I lile of the millionaire with the massive platform's portrayal of people like me.
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  10. #2930

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    Sanji's behavior around women itself carries its own baggage of problems.

    Even in Japan, the overly pervert character is starting to fade in popularity. Sanji still has his main character status and other personality traits to keep him popular, but other characters that attempt the same joke like Kin'emon and Momonosuke end up not nearly as liked as a result.
    Glad to hear this. In fact I am finding lesser and lesser pervert characters in new anime and I was beginning to think of this. I know there's a whole different sexual culture in Japan, but hearing some behaviours are not trending anymore can't make me more happy. Let's say it: pervert characters are just like okamas, a bad heritage of some sort of humour.

    This is not stopping Sanji by defecting Onigashima mission just to seek for geishas, but there's time.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  11. #2931

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.



    It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

    "unlawful sexual activity... forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"


    Other dictionary definitions



    Hey, what does that sound like?

    Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.


    Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

    I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

    I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"
    Be consistent with what you argue please, the other two definitions do not represent the way you used it due to the sexual nature you implied, nor is it in any way common in everyday usage and seems outdated (unless i am completely wrong) and i know i am derailing the thread, so last answer from me, especially since, like you said, it was not your main point.
    You were clearly using rape in a sexual context, and i am baffled we need to talk about this, it simply was not rape and using the word in such a context is trivializing one of the most disgusting acts you can do to a person.
    The first definition is proving my point, the others have no sexual connotation, you used it in a sexual context, and the only thing i argued is, despite the obviously more than questionable behavior of the Kamabakka people, the intent was not of sexual nature but was misguided nevertheless, but even if it has a sexual nature, it is not in any form rape, and distinguishing between rape, sexual assault and harassment is not trivial, regardless whether itīs in everyday usage or criminal context.
    Sorry if i look like a stickler and did not agree with a throwaway statement.

  12. #2932

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    It seems that nothing has changed with King between him being 27 years old and 47 years old, except that his clothing style was slightly different.



  13. #2933

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Let's be real, though: even if the intent wasn't there, it's often that the suggestion, the mere intimation of possible sexual ravishing ( be it rape or sexual harassment ) at the hands of characters like the newkamas is typically baked into sequences like these to fuel the humor, however light-hearted it's meant to come across. It's basically become a long-entrenched trope in anime/manga by this point.

    Obviously, it almost never ( almost....any Karate Shoukoushi KOhinata Minoru readers in the house? ) goes down, likely never to happen, and said characters may otherwise be depicted positively to varying degrees, but the fact remains that the element of possible sexual assault typically serves as the basis for many a gag, however much it's played for laughs, highly unlikely to ever be followed upon, or boils down to gross misunderstanding on the "victim's" part.

    I mean, any One-Punch readers here? You know what I'm talking about.



    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    It seems that nothing has changed with King between him being 27 years old and 47 years old, except that his clothing style was slightly different.


    https://i.ibb.co/51W1Fqx/Unknown.jpg
    Possibly a slight change from the manga though, as the arm holding the sword that stabbed Ashura -- presumably belonging to that of King, as implied -- seemed to be uncovered and bare-skinned, with the exception of a glove.

    Maybe it's me reading too much into things, but it's just one reason why I ( like some others ) wonder if King may actually turn out to be a woman...albeit a very masculine one, possibly even one who identifies as a man; and a more glaringly blatant reverse-take on Kiku's gender identity, as say opposed to Yamato ( for the moment, maybe ). For better for worse.

    Wouldn't be the first or the last, for anyone worried about this prospect, ie villains being the sole representatives; I firmly believe Oda isn't done tackling the topic of gender...again, for better or worse, depending on one's personal views. Be prepared for the possible reveal of characters who possess the hearts of both a "maiden" and a "prince/knight" or what have you.

    We still haven't learned what Crocodile's secret is, after all. And I've a sneaking suspicion Oda's took inspiration from another major iconic gender-bending character to craft this ( admittedly, yet unrevealed ) facet to Sir C's history and character.

    Anyways, brace yourselves, this discussion likely isn't going to die down any time soon...if at all.

    Edit:

    Btw, just to clarify with respect to the King bit, I understand it may seem like an illogical leap to somehow connect bare skin with King being a woman. For it's worth, it's just speculation built on some calculated, and in this case subjective, hunches. Straight up, the arm in question just gives this "effeminate" vibe to me, going off Oda's usual art style. What's more, I feel it was intended to look as much as red herring of sorts, to lead us to suspect the similarly gloved, bare-armed Shinobu present on scene of being the BIG TRAITOR -- a major lingering mystery at the time, with Shinobu far from being the only character Oda was slyly attempting to cast doubt upon imo.

    Anyway, blah blah, long story short, just think there's a chance some small bit of misdirection may have been intended to sneakily foreshadow a major future reveal, hence the curious ( if seemingly very minor ) discrepancy here between the anime and manga depictions of in the respective sequences here.

    Also a bit suspect how so many instances of characters being silhouetted in the manga are translating to full-blown, unobstructed reveals in the anime too. Again, could be nothing...but maybe, just maybe, Oda passed along some minor "suggestions" to hide some things.
    Last edited by Ghidorah Guy; September 5th, 2021 at 04:24 PM.

  14. #2934

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Judge and Queen are also both 56, so seeing as how Vegapunk worked with them on MADS presumably as peers, he might be around the same age as them.

  15. #2935

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    The okama discussion is a tough one and I can definitely understand people falling on either side of it.

    On one hand, major characters like Bentham and Ivan are actual people who are accepted by the hero and portrayed likeably as good guys. On the other, the unnamed background okama basically all fall into uncomfortable "predatory gay" stereotypes that seem to be common in Japanese works.

    On one hand, the character designs feel very, very much like caricature, and not necessarily kind ones. On the other, Oda apparently based a lot of the designs off real Japanese drag performers, and I'm not equipped to talk on the accuracy of those depictions or how that foreign community feels about it. Also most One Piece character designs are highly exaggerated or stylised caricatures.

    On one hand, Bentham was introduced in like 2001, giving representation not to a queer sexuality but a queer gender identity long before that was something that was commonly done. And that's given Oda time to learn and grow enough to write Kiku, while other series like One Punch Man are still stuck in their predatory Puri Puri Prisoner phase. But on the other hand, twenty-year-old depictions of queer characters, and even ten-year-old depictions, rarely age gracefully, and One Piece being on one continuity for so long means those aged depictions remain permanently a part of its world, even after the real world has changed its thinking.

    And there's the debate on the term okama as a whole. I've heard people say it's a slur. I've heard them say it's just a colloquial term. I've heard it was a slur but now it's reclaimed. I've heard it was okay when it was first used but would be considered kinda rude today. It seems like it's been mostly supplanted by "newkama" in the series' vocabulary by now, so maybe there's something in that, but I obviously don't have the perspective to say.

    I don't see the two frameworks of judging a work relative to the time and culture it was produced in and judging it as if it were released to to the critic's own culture in the modern day as mutually exclusive. You can hold in your head both that the series passes (or at least made a good-faith attempt) by one metric, but has aged or translated poorly by the other. It's every reader's own business where they come down on issues of depiction, what they're willing to put up with, or what meta factors could justify a clumsy portrayal of a sensitive topic in their mind. But it's not black and white. One Piece has had failures in representation, but they don't taint it entirely (but are totally fair for some readers to see as a deal-breaker), and it also has successes, but they don't exonerate the failures or raise it above criticism.

    tldr depiction is a complicated and often subjective topic that only gets harder when being judged from across different time periods and cultures

  16. #2936
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Rundas View Post
    So...sometimes a thread can derail a bit, but don't you think it would be better to create a own discussion thread for this whole Yamatos gender debate?
    And you mean just stick to the okama/Sanji rape debate?
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  17. #2937

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I am sorry for being late and forgive me for not wanting to read through 10 pages of Yamato debate but did we actually get all the information for the packs yet?

  18. #2938

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    King, Yamato, Ulti, and Page One in previous designs:












  19. #2939

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    If King doesn’t take off his mask and look like that now I’m going to be so disappointed lol. That looks like a badass design. Doesn’t scream Moon people to me though

  20. #2940
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by electricmastro View Post
    It seems that nothing has changed with King between him being 27 years old and 47 years old, except that his clothing style was slightly different.


    https://i.ibb.co/51W1Fqx/Unknown.jpg
    Hard to tell when he's clad head to toe in black leather.
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