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Thread: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

  1. #2881

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    ...but what exactly does it matter that Yamato is a fictional character? Theres plenty of fictional characters who identify by another gender than the societal default, would you just refer to any such character by their biological sex because they're all fictional creations?
    I was talking about your analogy that, as a cis, heterossexual person, you would never think of impersonate a woman just because you admire her. Yes, that's a valid real-life argument that I don't think necessarily holds true for a fictional character in a kids manga, as I doubt that was a matter that even crossed Oda's mind when he came up with Yamato.
    Heck, in real life she could probably be diagnosed with identity disorder, as she's not simply "copying" Oden. I think people are trying to apply a complexity to this situation that just isn't there.

  2. #2882

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by goty View Post
    I was talking about your analogy that, as a cis, heterossexual person, you would never think of impersonate a woman just because you admire her. Yes, that's a valid real-life argument that I don't think necessarily holds true for a fictional character in a kids manga, as I doubt that was a matter that even crossed Oda's mind when he came up with Yamato.
    Heck, in real life she could probably be diagnosed with identity disorder, as she's not simply "copying" Oden. I think people are trying to apply a complexity to this situation that just isn't there.
    Heterosexual trans people exist. The word you are looking for is 'cisgender', identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth.
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  3. #2883

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    I am saying that Oda himself is not a reliable narrator because his understanding of gender and queerness (not to mention women or writing for children in general) is awful.
    That's where I say it borders on a question of authorial intent vs. subjective reader interpretation. I'm really just trying to look at what Oda's intending and not intending to communicate with Yamao and of course every reader is going to have their own subjective interpretation of the text and understanding of the character.

    I just don't get the impression Oda intended to make being male part of Yamato's gender identity. I don't even think it's quite accurate to say Yamato 'identifies' as Kozuki Oden.

    I think the context of the word 'identify' is to say it's a core part of who you are. It's an intrinsic part of your self. And I don't get the impression that being male or being Oden is part of Yamato's identity. Rather, it seems like something she willfully adapts - like a part in a play. But she still seems to differentiate these traits from her true inner-self. Yamato's also (obviously) not a real person, so there's also a symbolic element to her character (a player in a multi-act kabuki play) which don't apply to real people the same way as to characters within a narrative.
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  4. #2884
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I just think it's cool that Yamato finally gets a Vivre card after being the one to introduce them to Ace.
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  5. #2885

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    I just think it's cool that Yamato finally gets a Vivre card after being the one to introduce them to Ace.
    It's so funny Yamato literally made the first Vivre Card which introduced us to the concept. Figuring he made the VC, had given to Ace, Ace then two years later gave it to Luffy, which only in Thriller Bark gets explained by Lola what it means and later became the actual motor behind the whole Impel Down-Marineford saga. This is some astonishing level of worldbuilding. It's like something of Yamato has always been with Luffy since Arabasta up to the end of first half.
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  6. #2886

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by FolhaS View Post
    That's a weird goalpost to me. Because in story, everyone is already using male pronouns.
    It feels like you're treating the character as a child, claming they're astronauts and that they go to the moon every night, and every "outside source" (editors, advertisements, etc) as a parent, nodding a No in the background saying "Oh, she just has a lot of imagination".
    But the character is a capable and full grown adult making their decisions.
    Yet, here's the thing: we can't ignore that Yamato is a One Piece character. Considering the setting, where fantastical humor, exaggeration, and allegory abound, one cannot completely discount the possibility that this will prove to be the case, on some level at least. Any attempt to view the One Piece world and characters through a realworld lens without the proper context is an exercise in futility. Hell, if we're to apply strict realistic standards to the One Piece universe, just think how many of these characters would be deemed guilty of child abuse, sexual harassment, etc? It's just not that cut and dry.

    As has been noted multiple times, it's only further muddied by the fact that Oda has potentially directly tied Yamato's gender to her adoption of Oden's identity, thereby possibly framing her choice as mere byproduct of her decision; more so a technicality than a thoroughly informed personal decision independent of their desire to become Oden. One could even interpret it as Oda seemingly tying the topic of gender to the subject and heavily overarching theme of roleplay that's currently at play; a very controversial, risky narrative route to explore, to be sure, if such truly is the case, particularly as it pertains to Western audiences.

    Now, is that truly Oda's intent? Who can say for sure? Like I said, it's just one possibility, as there's certainly more straightforward, clear-cut avenues Oda could've taken, as many would agree at this point. As others have mentioned, methinks it's best to let things play and and wait n see how Yamato's story develops before rushing in to "claim" Yamato as validation of one viewpoint or another. There's no telling with any sure certainty what Oda intended or what he's thinking so far as Yamato's character is concerned. It can go several different ways. And yes, one such possible scenario is that Yamato will go back to identifying as female upon realizing their admiration for Oden doesn't have to extend to very literal emulation. In terms of fictional characters, I think anyone who's read/watched enough manga/anime is familiar with the trope of a "masculine" biological woman eventually "re-embracing" their womanhood yadda yadda....it's an extremely cringy alternative, especially in light of the controversy, but it's not an impossibility, however remote. Like I said, best to temper one's expectations.

    That said, that isn't what I personally see happening, or prefer to happen, mind you. Again, I can't guarantee anything and this is just my own speculation, nothing more, but if Oda sticks to the thematic path he's exploring right now ( imo ), what we may actually see by the conclusion of Wano is Yamato reaching an epiphany of sorts, as outlined in that scenario I mentioned above...only instead of declaring themselves as either male or female, in true colorful One Piece wonky fashion they'll conclude that they are male and female; both and neither at the same time, a perfect harmonious balance.

    Of course, I'm sure that wouldn't settle anything and only open up a whole new can of worms. But then, an open-ended resolution that invites heaps of debate and varying interpretations is exactly the kinda route I could see Oda taking. But again, no-one can say for sure right now.

  7. #2887

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Anyone got the EX cards?

  8. #2888

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    Heterosexual trans people exist. The word you are looking for is 'cisgender', identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth.
    Thanks. I actually knew that, but I was quoting the analogy that he had done when referring to himself, and I'm sure he used cis and heterosexual as independent aspects too.
    But see, I doubt Oda has in mind the nuances and problematics of gender identity, sexuality and whatnot when dealing with Yamato. He's coming from a Japanese perspective (where the fandom apparently isn't delving into this matter nearly as much) and it's the same guy who said multiple times in the past that his primary concern when coming up with content is whether boys will find it cool.
    That's why I think it's important to not forget the context where Yamato exists, but also the reason I think the character's resolution, whatever happens, risks being simplistic and leaving many people unsatisfied.
    Last edited by goty; September 3rd, 2021 at 03:30 PM.

  9. #2889
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    It'll be funny when Yamato gets a second vivre card and certain things are added or changed especially given how much "discussion" this has generated.
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  10. #2890

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by goty View Post
    Thanks. I actually knew that, but I was quoting the analogy that he had done when referring to himself, and I'm sure he used cis and heterosexual as independent aspects too.
    But see, I doubt Oda has in mind the nuances and problematics of gender identity, sexuality and whatnot when dealing with Yamato. He's coming from a Japanese perspective (where the fandom apparently isn't delving into this matter nearly as much) and it's the same guy who said multiple times in the past that his primary concern when coming up with content is whether boys will find it cool.
    That's why I think it's important to not forget the context where Yamato exists, but also the reason I think the character's resolution, whatever happens, risks being simplistic and leaving many people unsatisfied.
    I've seen little proof that 'the Japanese fandom' (which is, like, how huge exactly?) does not have a section of people discussing it. The fandom is huge, queer people will inevitably be out there discussing it, people just aren't looking.

    Anyway, like, again...Oda has the internet right there. He can hire consultants. Wikipedia is right fucking there. Here is the Japanese page for the term transgender. They even use the fucking English word トランスジェンダー (toransujendaa)! Ignorance is not an excuse when there's already an entire fucking community in Japan with its own set of issues.
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  11. #2891
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    I am saying that Oda himself is not a reliable narrator because his understanding of gender and queerness (not to mention women or writing for children in general) is awful.
    If that's the take on it then its not about Oda being unreliable its just that his fictional story doesn't adhere to real world knowledge and facts so gender, queerness, women, writing for children, and anything else can be whatever he wants it to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vongola_Boss_XI View Post
    I just don't get the impression Oda intended to make being male part of Yamato's gender identity. I don't even think it's quite accurate to say Yamato 'identifies' as Kozuki Oden.
    Identifying as a male and identifying as a man are two different things.

    Yamato identifying as a male has never been a thing so yeah you'd be right Oda didn't intend that.
    Last edited by Zik; September 3rd, 2021 at 04:36 PM.
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  12. #2892

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    If that's the take on it then its not about Oda being unreliable its just that his fictional story doesn't adhere to real world knowledge and facts so gender, queerness, women, writing for children, and anything else can be whatever he wants it to be.

    Identifying as a male and identifying as a man are two different things.

    Yamato identifying as a male has never been a thing so yeah you'd be right Oda didn't intend that.
    When you write about these things you are writing about them for real people who live in the real world. Therefore, Oda's bullshit is not defensible. It is very much indefensible and must be criticized so that he can do better as someone with a platform that can negatively influence people's understanding of very important real life issues.
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  13. #2893

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I think the assumption here is that Oda is trying to write about gender. I don't think that's at all the case with Yamato. That's where I think it's important to see Yamato's Oden visage is knowingly performative. Zik is right above that there's a difference between identifying as a specific man and identifying as male. But I don't really think Yamato identifies as either. Yamato seems to knowingly differentiate between her core identity and 'being Kozuki Oden.' I'd say Yamato wanting to 'be Oden' is more like Luffy wanting to 'be the Pirate King.' It's an aspiration or ideal. She views 'Oden' as both a person and a collective set of ideas and values. But also, Oden's words were a ray of hope for her from the time she was a child. In that sense, her framing of being Oden is in a sense juvenile - in a whimsical sort of way. Like a child pretending to be their hero. Yamato is not childish and I'm not looking down on her adoration for Oden. But in the very first scene, when Luffy pushes back against her claim to 'be Oden', Yamato tells him that maybe Luffy's more Oden - which reminded me of kids taking turns pretending to be their favorite hero when playing make believe. Yamato even says maybe Luffy is 'more Oden' then she is - which is the reason I always believed she would eventually come to see Momonosuke in that light. The person who is the 'most Oden'. It's important for not only Yamato's character arc, but also Momonosuke's growth into a leader capable of taking on his father's extraordinary mantle.
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  14. #2894

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    I've seen little proof that 'the Japanese fandom' (which is, like, how huge exactly?) does not have a section of people discussing it. The fandom is huge, queer people will inevitably be out there discussing it, people just aren't looking.
    Don't think anyone's argued that nobody in all of Japan is discussing the topic at length; point being that it's likely not anywhere near as much of a hot button issue in Japan compared to Western circles due a number of cultural differences.

    For the same reason that Mr. Popo here from Dragonball never quite got the makeover seen here in most other parts of the world as he did at point here in North America. To put forth a very blatant example, anyway.



    Again, not putting forth cultural relativism as justification for exemption of criticism here...but it does add important context when readers are attempting to gauge what an author is attempting to convey and what may be informing their line of thought ( which can be tricky enough as is ).

    Anyway, like, again...Oda has the internet right there. He can hire consultants. Wikipedia is right fucking there. Here is the Japanese page for the term transgender. They even use the fucking English word トランスジェンダー (toransujendaa)! Ignorance is not an excuse when there's already an entire fucking community in Japan with its own set of issues.
    Well, the likely answer here is assuredly not one you want to hear, but here it is: because Oda is not inclined to do so. Like it or not, this is likely not the kind of story Oda is looking to tell, not the kind of manga he set out to make. Even though the One Piece narrative does touch on a wide range of weighty subject matter, let's be realistic here: this is still One Piece; it was never going to be the expansive, thorough deep-dive into the myriad complexities of the subjects at hand, explored in detailed length with the degree of seriousness such discourse merits. There's no way Oda/Shueisha were going to ever allocate the time or money to hire consultants of all things anytime Oda tackled the issue of gender, race, or any number of topics that deserve equal consideration. C'mon now. Shit, Oda can barely function as a healthy human being as is with the lifestyle he leads.

    Again, don't get it twisted: I'm not saying he's exempt from legit criticism being laid at his feet just because of his hectic schedule, One Piece's whimsical, light-hearted structure, blah blah blah...it doesn't make characters like the Newkamas ( or Mr. Popo ) any less cringey, if not outright offensive, depending on one's tolerance threshold. But again, context and perspective matter.

  15. #2895
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by JulieYBM View Post
    When you write about these things you are writing about them for real people who live in the real world.
    That doesn't mean what you're writing about has to be a direct adaption from the real world though.

    Therefore, Oda's bullshit is not defensible. It is very much indefensible and must be criticized so that he can do better as someone with a platform that can negatively influence people's understanding of very important real life issues.
    What I'm saying is what you're assuming Oda is writing about, that he doesn't know enough about according to you may not be that. Which is why it isn't correct.

    When Oda brought up the Rose of Versailles manga/anime a year before Yamato was introduced he brought up Oscar who was a female character who was raised as a boy by her/his father. That isn't a trans character but as already said is a non-conforming gender character.

    So kinda seems at the least that was Oda's intention in creating Yamato and that hasn't changed with this vivre card info.
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  16. #2896

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    For me, fiction =/= real life. What you have in fiction can be vastly different from the real world as these things do not have to be the same at all. You can do all sorts of stuff in fiction that would be wrong in real life even. The point of fiction is seeing a different reality of your own, to challenge one's thoughts, to see a different perspective, etc.

    Like for example, I can't just go declare war on the government like in One Piece for example. But in their reality, it is possible plus they have crazy powers to be able to survive and not get arrested. I appreciate One Piece for what it is, I like it being goofy and at times touch heavy subjects within their world. Things can relate, but other times things don't relate. It's that simple.

    Lastly, I think Oda is doing a great job with Yamato! She's just a tomboy who wants to be her hero. That is cute and adorable in a way, even if it is a coping mechanism to escape Kaido. There is nothing wrong with this narrative and shouldn't be seen as offensive as it has nothing to do with being trans.

  17. #2897

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Vongola_Boss_XI View Post
    I think the assumption here is that Oda is trying to write about gender. I don't think that's at all the case with Yamato. That's where I think it's important to see Yamato's Oden visage is knowingly performative. Zik is right above that there's a difference between identifying as a specific man and identifying as male. But I don't really think Yamato identifies as either. Yamato seems to knowingly differentiate between her core identity and 'being Kozuki Oden.' I'd say Yamato wanting to 'be Oden' is more like Luffy wanting to 'be the Pirate King.' It's an aspiration or ideal. She views 'Oden' as both a person and a collective set of ideas and values. But also, Oden's words were a ray of hope for her from the time she was a child. In that sense, her framing of being Oden is in a sense juvenile - in a whimsical sort of way. Like a child pretending to be their hero. Yamato is not childish and I'm not looking down on her adoration for Oden. But in the very first scene, when Luffy pushes back against her claim to 'be Oden', Yamato tells him that maybe Luffy's more Oden - which reminded me of kids taking turns pretending to be their favorite hero when playing make believe. Yamato even says maybe Luffy is 'more Oden' then she is - which is the reason I always believed she would eventually come to see Momonosuke in that light. The person who is the 'most Oden'. It's important for not only Yamato's character arc, but also Momonosuke's growth into a leader capable of taking on his father's extraordinary mantle.
    See, that's the thing too, further adding a ton of wrinkles to what's already a very prickly discussion to begin with: while framing Yamato's gender identity as being the result of some childish flight of fancy understandably could certainly open the floodgates to a stream of potentially insidious insinuations and implications, depending on one's intent and biases....it need not necessarily go this route....though that may be asking a lot, from Wester audiences especially.

    When you get right down it, due to One Piece's very nature, one could equate the desires and actions of the entire cast with possessing the same degree of ostensible "childishness" that marks Yamato's decisions ( per this hypothetical scenario, at least ). At the end of the day, One Piece was always intended to be on the more light-hearted, goofier side of things ( serious subject matter and drama notwithstanding ), with ridiculous humor and embellished metaphor aplenty suffusing the narrative and tone. So one need not necessarily perceive this whole "roleplay" interpretation of Yamato's decision-making ( assuming this were even Oda's intention, simply for argument's sake ) as a direct attack or threat to the trans community; it's rather allegorical fluffy coating for deeper underlying philosophical questions and topics ( Oda's capacity to respectfully and adequately tackle complex subject matter notwithstanding ).

    Buuuuuuut.....yeah, asking a lot. Let's face it: unfortunately, it's undeniably very easy to see how this could entail a recipe for disaster, no matter how well-intentioned, if such were to truly end up being Oda's train of thought. And why I'd fully expect any member of the LGBT+ community to immediately recoil in disgust at the very suggestion of which. Even for a manga like One Piece and Japanese standards, this would encompass very precarious territory for Oda to tread, just for the possible implications alone, on a perceptual level. Which is why I'd hope ( and am expecting ) he'd have far more to say and explore on the matter beyond Yamato's gender identity boiling down to some gag, with further development to follow.

    Yes, that's taking into account Oda's flaws and drawbacks....better something than nothing, now that we've come this far, no? But again, temper those expectations....

    That said, I do think there's interesting discussion to be mined from simply exploring topics of gender in hand with that of roleplay, theater, and identity as a whole...keyword being exploring, not attempting to make any definitive statements colored by pre-existing judgements and/or preconceived viewpoints. But again, it'd just have to be extremely deftly handled. We'll just have to wait and see what Oda has in mind and how it unfolds.

  18. #2898

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghidorah Guy View Post
    So one need not necessarily perceive this whole "roleplay" interpretation of Yamato's decision-making ( assuming this were even Oda's intention, simply for argument's sake ) as a direct attack or threat to the trans community; it's rather allegorical fluffy coating for deeper underlying philosophical questions and topics ( Oda's capacity to respectfully and adequately tackle complex subject matter notwithstanding
    Well, as a trans person myself, I don't see the roleplay thing being an attack on the trans community. I never once got offended by the narrative and I seen Yamato as female even before the reveal on her vivre card. I really like Yamato as a character, and I'm happy for who the person she is in the story. She's just a tomboy cosplaying as her favorite person in the world. I do like the gags that come with the whole Oden stuff! So, yeah! :3

  19. #2899

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Various ages that have been revealed:


    Kaidou at age 36 (now 59); Queen at age 36 (now 56); Orochi at age 13 (now 54); Fukurukuju at age 41 (now 61); Sarutobi at age 25 (now 45)



  20. #2900

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Based purely on how Oda has handled Kiku, I'd like to hope and believe he's matured and learned a bit more about the whole transgender hting in the twelve years since he put in the giant headed stubble monsters that were trying to rape Sanji. That was super cringe and bad and cancelled out anything good he did with Ivanokov and Bon Kurei.

    He clearly has some ongoing interest with the concepts, we know he' even gone to okama bars, and is obviously a Rocky Horror fan, so its a question of how much more has he looked into it, has he actually talked to anyone about it, etc. So its mostly a question of, is he the same man at 46 as he was at 34? I'd hope not.

    He and the staff have certainly gotten comments about Yamato though, so they ARE aware of how important this is to some fans, so that may end up being a factor too, whatever his initial intent was.

    Like, there's still certain lines he can;t cross or go into in his genre of comic, so he's never going to do a serious deep dive on it, and may be partly responsbile for how he's presented it in a way that can be interpreted either as "girl with a silly gag" or "trans person." and leave it up to the individual.

    Mostly at this point we need to see how much Yamato being a man is linked to being an Oden. That's the only real question.
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