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Thread: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

  1. #2861

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I'm happy about the confirmation about Yamato's gender! I always saw her as female. She is a tomboy that acts "masculine", but doesn't make her any less of a woman. I'm also transgender male to female and I never once saw Yamato as male. She never presented herself as a man, but as Oden, which is nothing to do about gender identity, but more so as "cosplaying" as the person she looks up to the most.

    Yes, Rose of Versailles is one of the inspirations for the character, but if I recall the main character in that manga is female but raised as a boy. That isn't being a man, she was pretending to be one in terms of how she was raised. That to me is a huge misconception.

    It's okay to be female and a tomboy, and there is nothing wrong with that. Regardless, Yamato is one of my favorite characters in Wano! And honestly, hope this gender debate can finally end. And in the end none of it all matters because Yamato is Yamato!

    As for Vivre Cards making mistakes, those are all pretty minor. A few number mistakes here and there, that doesn't mean that Vivre Card for Yamato is wrong. I mean gender is a big thing compared to let's say getting an age of a character wrong with Hitetsu. Sometimes small mistakes happen, but it doesn't mean that other stuff will change like with Yamato. I just wanted to address that, as that should not be used as something to debunk what was said specifically for the Yamato card. That's just my two cents!
    Last edited by starlalilymoon; September 3rd, 2021 at 04:11 AM.

  2. #2862

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    The whole Yamato discourse continues to baffle me. As a potentially unimformed non-LGBT person I will just say that even if Yamato is "just" a man by default because Oden was a man, then that still means that Yamato has an attitude towards gender which...means he will declare himself a man if it suits him, without thinking twice of it. Thats not a universal attitude to have -like as a cis het man I wouldn't go "I admire this woman so much I want to emulate her, and since she is a woman I guess I'm also a woman now". And its not like Yamato is "being Oden" purely as a "performance". Its not a "cosplay" or a Kanjuro style "act" because such things are donned with awareness and intent of its artificial, temporary nature. Yamato isn't emulating Oden as a lark, it is fully his identity, 24/7. Which includes...thinking of himself as a man.

    Its not comparable to an actor in a play, because Yamato is emulating Oden purely for his own benefit, not for that of an audience. I guess my stance is, even if Yamato turns out to change his stance of what gender he presents as, just because his stance is fluid I see no reason not accept what his current perspective may be.
    That logic would make perfect sense, if we were talking about a real person and not a fictional character from a comic primarily aimed at boys.
    I mean, we don't even know if Oda thought that far when he came up with the concept of Yamato. Maybe he just thought an attractive female playing "Oden" because she was deeply influenced by him would be cool, funny or make for an interesting story.

  3. #2863

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboBlue View Post
    If everyone uses male terms going forward then that would make it obvious that we should be using male pronouns.
    I say "male terms" because in Japanese pronouns aren't definitively gendered the same way they are in English, but there are plenty of other words that provide gender context (like son and princess).
    That's a weird goalpost to me. Because in story, everyone is already using male pronouns.
    It feels like you're treating the character as a child, claming they're astronauts and that they go to the moon every night, and every "outside source" (editors, advertisements, etc) as a parent, nodding a No in the background saying "Oh, she just has a lot of imagination".
    But the character is a capable and full grown adult making their decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhenja View Post
    Yes, I would.
    But if that happens it would mean the narrator was wrong… or lied on purpose. How likely would that be…
    You mean like when the narrator introduced Momo as Kinnemon's son?
    A different case, for sure, but such thing as the narrator "lying" or purposely telling readers to look the other way has already happen in this series.



    At this point, after months and moths of discussing this topic, I still find the pronoun/noun issue the weirdest of all, because ignoring the complex feelings and motivations for someone to "come out" as trans or non-binary, we simply have a person/character asking to be called by this name/pronoun, which they decided for themselves rather than stick with the one they were born.
    I never saw someone on this forum, or anywhere else, fighting to call Sanji by his Vinsmoke name. It's the name he was born with, but he tossed it aside and took up the Black Leg epiteph from his dad Red Leg Zeff. Most people here actually seemed unhappy with Sanji using the raid suit, since that's something that came from his mostly awful biological family, or that there is now a chance that his genes are awakening and it turns out that he actually has more from Judge that both Sanji and readers would like.
    When Sanji rejects his birth name and biology, claiming such actions proudly, loud and clear, he gets support, when Yamato rejects his birth pronoun he gets met with Oh it's just a phase, honey.

  4. #2864
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by goty View Post
    That logic would make perfect sense, if we were talking about a real person and not a fictional character from a comic primarily aimed at boys.
    I mean, we don't even know if Oda thought that far when he came up with the concept of Yamato.
    ...but what exactly does it matter that Yamato is a fictional character? Theres plenty of fictional characters who identify by another gender than the societal default, would you just refer to any such character by their biological sex because they're all fictional creations? If not, how exactly do you define "proper" context of "intended target audience" or "somehow quantifiable author intent or the absence thereof" and whatnot to determine when to/not to refer a character by the opposite of what they identify as? Why not just go with what the character claims to be, when this is presented as genuine?

    Quote Originally Posted by goty View Post
    Maybe he just thought an attractive female playing "Oden" because she was deeply influenced by him would be cool, funny or make for an interesting story.
    Why even with the hypothetical? Leaving aside any meta-aware reasons revolving around OPs target audience and whatnot, what reasons have the actual text of the story given to support the reading that Yamato is being Oden because "it would be cool, funny or make for an interesting story"? And in the absence of such framing, why not just go with what Yamato wants?

  5. #2865

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    By the way, where can you buy the Vivre Cards? I wouldn't mind collecting all of them and supporting Oda at the same time. I assume there is no official English version of them, but just the Japanese, but I'm fine with that, if that is the case.

  6. #2866
    Desire's Bland Moon puffing.cinema's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Hey guys just a reminder that non-binary people can be read as trans too, and Yamato up until now (being a cis woman that prefers male pronouns) still falls under that category.

    More gender news: Morley was confirmed as genderfluid (or in the manga terminology, newkama)

  7. #2867

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by puffing.cinema View Post
    Hey guys just a reminder that non-binary people can be read as trans too, and Yamato up until now (being a cis woman that prefers male pronouns) still falls under that category.

    More gender news: Morley was confirmed as genderfluid (or in the manga terminology, newkama)
    I am still so astonished by Oda anticipating reality (or at least my reality, as I heard "genderfluid" first only years after Ivankov's debut).
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  8. #2868

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by puffing.cinema View Post
    Hey guys just a reminder that non-binary people can be read as trans too, and Yamato up until now (being a cis woman that prefers male pronouns) still falls under that category.

    More gender news: Morley was confirmed as genderfluid (or in the manga terminology, newkama)
    Good and important point to make.

    Even if what he is in Japanese has no direct and clear English equivalent, it's obvious that Yamato is still strongly, aggressively gender non-conforming in any language. That's a fact, no matter how much we go in circles about how Oda would have represented it if he was writing in a language with gendered third person pronouns and a greater distinction between sex and gender, or what would be most in-character for Yamato to choose for himself if he were to interact with that kind of language and culture. I'm coming to accept that there'll never be a perfect canon answer because the debate simply doesn't translate, but it remains a hard fact of the matter that Yamato has willingly and enthusiastically taken on a whole lot of masculinity, but evidently without also rejecting his femininity, body or birthname. That's a complicated thing to interpret in one language, let alone translate to another one!

    Quote Originally Posted by starlalilymoon View Post
    By the way, where can you buy the Vivre Cards? I wouldn't mind collecting all of them and supporting Oda at the same time. I assume there is no official English version of them, but just the Japanese, but I'm fine with that, if that is the case.
    I usually get mine and whatever other Japanese things I need from here: https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/

    They don't mark them up from the Japanese shelf price like some other places selling Japan-exclusive anime stuff internationally tend to, and shipping rates are usually reasonable (but can fluctuate based on how locked down the world is at the time of ordering). That might also vary depending on where in the world you are, but for Australia, they're pretty good.

  9. #2869

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    I usually get mine and whatever other Japanese things I need from here: https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/

    They don't mark them up from the Japanese shelf price like some other places selling Japan-exclusive anime stuff internationally tend to, and shipping rates are usually reasonable (but can fluctuate based on how locked down the world is at the time of ordering). That might also vary depending on where in the world you are, but for Australia, they're pretty good.
    Awesome! Thank you so much! I made sure to bookmark the site for the future! =^.^=

  10. #2870

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by FolhaS View Post
    You mean like when the narrator introduced Momo as Kinnemon's son?
    A different case, for sure, but such thing as the narrator "lying" or purposely telling readers to look the other way has already happen in this series.
    Oh yeah, right, totally forgot about that. But as you said a different case, it made sense to lie at that point to hide the secret.
    In Yamato's case, it doesn't make any sense. See my posts on the previous page.

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

  11. #2871

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I stand by it being a performance / playing a role. Yamato also said he is Oden's father. When she did not in act impregnate Amatsuki Toki 29 years ago.

    But of course I people are free to feel differently and I understand that. But it's my genuine reading of Oda's intent with Yamato.
    Last edited by Vongola_Boss_XI; September 3rd, 2021 at 08:24 AM.
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    "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

  12. #2872

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    For me Yamato is a strange character. I rather not to use any pronouns concerning that person because, before Yamato met Oden there were no doubt about gender. For me being Oden i more like a quirk of that character.

  13. #2873

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Have any of the other cards been fully translated yet? I'm curious what information on the flying 6, numbers, few of the headliners that have been said beyond their height and bounties.

  14. #2874

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Oh nice, they've finally named the King of Lvneel and the old God of Skypiea.

  15. #2875

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    Oh nice, they've finally named the King of Lvneel and the old God of Skypiea.
    Wasn't him the old God Army commander? Maybe cause he always resembled Yama to me, but I was sure up until now ahahah
    Quote Originally Posted by rayleigh92 View Post
    Carrot sneaked on the Sunny when they left Zou, not asking or requesting anyone. IF Carrot is going to join, I expect something like that, with the crew ready to leave Wano, all of them beginning to party for new nakama Yamato and then "wha-t?! Carrot is near Luffy

  16. #2876

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by stefan999 View Post
    For me Yamato is a strange character. I rather not to use any pronouns concerning that person because, before Yamato met Oden there were no doubt about gender. For me being Oden i more like a quirk of that character.
    Why is there 'no doubt'? Why are we to buy into Oda being a reliable narrator on this aspect so that there is 'no doubt' that Yamato 'used to be a woman'?
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  17. #2877

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Not commenting in regard to the reason the question was asked, but I do think One Piece is being told from the perspective of an omniscient narrator. Oda hasn't really used unreliable narration as a storytelling device.

    But we're bordering on the question of authorial intent vs. subjective reader interpretation.
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  18. #2878

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    I've been following the discussion here and, as every cis man, want to provide my take on it despite having no deep knowledge on subjects of gender (but what is a cis man if not an expert in every possible subject by default and a firm believer they can always provide an insight nobody else could have thought?).
    And since I have nowhere else to do it because god forbid doing it on reddit (I am downvoted just for saying this subject was not firmly closed after the Vivre Card), here I am.






    So, Yamato's gender. Since the character's introduction I've been of the opinion that Oda is not trying to depict Yamato this as a trans man. The fact that, as mentioned every minute by someone, Yamato established that being a man is a consequence of being "Oden" meant that it was a secondary trait to being Oden, not something "from Yamato".
    In fact, based on this, I always hoped Oda would not portray Yamato as transgender, because this would pass the wrong idea to his public that a transgender person is someone who is merely masquerading as someone else and that their gender identity is just a whim.




    However this is just what we have now. What I think a lot of people fail to consider is that Yamato's character is not fully presented yet.
    It is important to have the temporal aspect of this in mind: Yamato started presenting themselves as Oden 20 years ago. "Oden is a man, so I became a man" is a statement that reflects the origin of the entire thing, therefore it calls back to Yamato 20 years ago, the 8-year Yamato. This means that the only information provided to us now, despite being given by current Yamato, does not necessarily amount to everything that is current to the character.


    It is common for "once cisgender men" who perform as drag queens to later come out as trans women. Performing as drag queens acting as a scenario where they can test their grounds not only by presenting themselves to others as women, but also to grow comfortable themselves with the notion that, in fact, they truly are women (a notion they might not even be aware at first).




    With that in mind, it is perfectly possible for this Oden personification to be just the way Yamato used to grow comfortable in the "role of a man" before realizing that they truly identify as such. And in this case, dropping the "I'm Oden" act would not get rid of "I'm a man", but instead give it more legitimacy.
    Of course, if this is the case, it will still need to be presented by Oda later... and of course, it will require Oda to even be aware of such nuances. But if Oda really pulls this out, I would really applaud his take on the subject.








    ---
    p.s.: a side note just to address people mentioning the vivre card states just the character's sex. Kiku's card states "male (with heart of woman)"; Bentham, Iva, Inazuma and Morley cards state "newkama". So that line in the card is not telling us that Yamato's sex is "woman", it is telling us Yamato is a woman (although, again, I am sure this not the last we'll hear on the subject from Oda/official sources).


    p.p.s.: and as puffing.cinema mentioned, it is important to have in mind that binary answers are not the only takes on the gender subject. Something that, surprisingly, Oda has shown to be perfectly aware since the early years of OP, so it's not beyond him to go there. In fact it is really hard to fit the okama/Newkama from OP into any category we have, so it's no surprise the Vivre Cards decide to use "newkama" as a gender itself.

  19. #2879

    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Quote Originally Posted by Vongola_Boss_XI View Post
    Not commenting in regard to the reason the question was asked, but I do think One Piece is being told from the perspective of an omniscient narrator. Oda hasn't really used unreliable narration as a storytelling device.

    But we're bordering on the question of authorial intent vs. subjective reader interpretation.
    I am saying that Oda himself is not a reliable narrator because his understanding of gender and queerness (not to mention women or writing for children in general) is awful.
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  20. #2880
    Someone call for Zeidoktor sgamer82's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

    Coming in late on this. I heard of Yamato's Vivre Card elsewhere but it hasn't really changed my own stance on the matter. To me, the only thing that's never been entirely clear is if Yamato is identifying as a man, or identifying as Oden, who is a man. For pronoun purposes it doesn't actually matter since, either way, Yamato is identifying as male and I see no reason to do otherwise until Yamato does. Far as I'm concerned, the Vivre Card is a secondary source that, in this instance, is at odds with the primary source, the actual manga, and in such cases I give priority to the primary source.
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